Hey everyone. I just wanted to have a discussion about Sweepers in the Standard Environment. I don't have the exact quote but I know one of the designers said there would be/shouldn't be anymore 4 cost sweep effects. However, with the current meta, I just wanted to get a discussion of what everyone else thought about why a 4 cost sweeper shouldn't be an option given there are so many ways creatures have of dodging the current sweepers in standard. The sweepers we have are unreliable and ineffective.
Given Languish rotated, I still don't see how it would be an effective sweeper in this current standard environment (artifact creatures, spirits, Blossiming Defense, Larger creatures at lower costs, Indesctructible, etc).
Fumigate does nothing vs artifacts and spirts, and it costs 3WW. It also is a prime target for an Avacyn negation or an indestructible activation.
Descend is good vs spirits but costs 4WW and most times will get countered.
Return to the Shore is obviously color locked but still not a shutdown sweeper.
Quarantine Zone is the "removes permanents but costs a ton" conditional sweeper.
Cata Gearhulk is the bulk pile sweeper.
In summary, with all the counters and "checks and balances" in place to protect creature based decks:
1.) What do you feel about the current sweepers (Fumigate, Descend, etc)?
2.) What do you feel would be an adequately powerful sweeper effect and at what cost/color?
3.) Should there be some effect to sweep away/control an opponents energy counters?
Thanks and I appreciate the feedback and love the community.
Sweepers are generally awful in the current environment. They're overcosted and there are tons of gaps in each and every one. The conditional ones generally aren't good enough (-2/-2 is not very good in the current meta and Radiant Flamers for 3 requires a manabase build around), and the unconditional ones have gaping holes in their coverage. Tapping 5 mana to cast Fumigate feels awful when Avacyn is in the format. Bump up to six mana for Descend and you still can't eliminate manlands, Gideon, and vehicles.
A good enough sweeper in this format needs to either be fast and efficient, with perhaps an Instant-speed option, or high-cost and comprehensive; an Akroma's Vengeance-like that hits Planeswalkers instead of Enchantments would be great. If the current sweepers are indicative of R&D's vision, I doubt we'll be getting anything close to good enough in the next couple sets.
I'm ambivalent about energy sweepers. I'd have to see what Aether Revolt brings to see if Energy requires that kind of interaction. Right now, it's just a Tier-2, at best, aggro strategy that can be easily stymied by interactive decks that plan for it.
The new 4 drop -3-3 and reanimate a CMC 3- looks pretty hopeful.
But really, I don't think control players should feel entitled to an easy win button in the form of damnation 2.0. As my experience with pauper control has taught me, you can get by without good sweepers, the shape of the control just needs to change.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
My problem is cards like Avacyn, Selfless Spirit, Spell Queller, Smuggler's Copter, all at once. It makes removing things a nightmare. Add to it that Aetherworks Marvel let you flash in whatever you want endstep, and it makes boardwipes really tough to play.
The problem is not the sweeper strength. Fulmigate is extremely powerful card. I also like the design choice of cmc 3-4 sweepers being conditional and uncondutional ones sitting at 5+.
As ppl already pointed out, creatures are crazy resilient. And i think control is not the archtype that suffers the most with this. Its traditional aggro... the quality of things that promotes board presence is very high compared to the purely speed/aggro stuff. Thats why red based aggro are like in a historical low.
With kozilek's return we currently have one of the best sweepers in the history of magic.
The other sweepers are fine, there is no problem with sweepers in the current metagame.
Err, not really. Kozilek's Return hardcast is nothing special and answers just about no threats in standard adequately. Triggered from the graveyard it's rather good, but that takes a very specific kind of deck. Also, it costs so much that you can put together a semi-competitive modern deck for the price of a playset and getting both it and a manabase for a deck that would run it (and possibly also the eldrazi to trigger it) just price whatever the deck is out of most people's hands. Also competes for money with Planeswalkers which simply go into any deck at all and do the same thing in every deck.
As for other sweepers currently available, they either don't hit even 3 toughness or suck against Selfless Spirit who's in every white deck anyway and white is probably half or more of the overall meta, so yeah, there might as well be no sweepers for all practical purposes. Kozilek's Return can't sidestep Selfless Spirit, either, so pouring mad cash into it is lunacy and it also might as well not exist, either, since every time someone plays it and it does something that simply means they got lucky with not playing someone with white (odds are not that high of that) or got lucky not playing a semi-instant-kill combo (odds are not high for that either) OR not playing against gearhulk (odds get much lower still) and they also got lucky that the white/x guy they're playing against didn't have Selfless Spirit on board to make do not much.
Given Languish rotated, I still don't see how it would be an effective sweeper in this current standard environment (artifact creatures, spirits, Blossiming Defense, Larger creatures at lower costs, Indesctructible, etc).
Fumigate does nothing vs artifacts and spirts, and it costs 3WW. It also is a prime target for an Avacyn negation or an indestructible activation.
Descend is good vs spirits but costs 4WW and most times will get countered.
Return to the Shore is obviously color locked but still not a shutdown sweeper.
Quarantine Zone is the "removes permanents but costs a ton" conditional sweeper.
Cata Gearhulk is the bulk pile sweeper.
In summary, with all the counters and "checks and balances" in place to protect creature based decks:
1.) What do you feel about the current sweepers (Fumigate, Descend, etc)?
2.) What do you feel would be an adequately powerful sweeper effect and at what cost/color?
3.) Should there be some effect to sweep away/control an opponents energy counters?
Thanks and I appreciate the feedback and love the community.
A good enough sweeper in this format needs to either be fast and efficient, with perhaps an Instant-speed option, or high-cost and comprehensive; an Akroma's Vengeance-like that hits Planeswalkers instead of Enchantments would be great. If the current sweepers are indicative of R&D's vision, I doubt we'll be getting anything close to good enough in the next couple sets.
I'm ambivalent about energy sweepers. I'd have to see what Aether Revolt brings to see if Energy requires that kind of interaction. Right now, it's just a Tier-2, at best, aggro strategy that can be easily stymied by interactive decks that plan for it.
About Mindslaver rulings:
I would kill for a Planar Cleansing right about now too.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
But really, I don't think control players should feel entitled to an easy win button in the form of damnation 2.0. As my experience with pauper control has taught me, you can get by without good sweepers, the shape of the control just needs to change.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
I also like 5 mana sweepers like Fumigate.
My problem is cards like Avacyn, Selfless Spirit, Spell Queller, Smuggler's Copter, all at once. It makes removing things a nightmare. Add to it that Aetherworks Marvel let you flash in whatever you want endstep, and it makes boardwipes really tough to play.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
As ppl already pointed out, creatures are crazy resilient. And i think control is not the archtype that suffers the most with this. Its traditional aggro... the quality of things that promotes board presence is very high compared to the purely speed/aggro stuff. Thats why red based aggro are like in a historical low.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I liked radiant flames when I played grixis
Err, not really. Kozilek's Return hardcast is nothing special and answers just about no threats in standard adequately. Triggered from the graveyard it's rather good, but that takes a very specific kind of deck. Also, it costs so much that you can put together a semi-competitive modern deck for the price of a playset and getting both it and a manabase for a deck that would run it (and possibly also the eldrazi to trigger it) just price whatever the deck is out of most people's hands. Also competes for money with Planeswalkers which simply go into any deck at all and do the same thing in every deck.
As for other sweepers currently available, they either don't hit even 3 toughness or suck against Selfless Spirit who's in every white deck anyway and white is probably half or more of the overall meta, so yeah, there might as well be no sweepers for all practical purposes. Kozilek's Return can't sidestep Selfless Spirit, either, so pouring mad cash into it is lunacy and it also might as well not exist, either, since every time someone plays it and it does something that simply means they got lucky with not playing someone with white (odds are not that high of that) or got lucky not playing a semi-instant-kill combo (odds are not high for that either) OR not playing against gearhulk (odds get much lower still) and they also got lucky that the white/x guy they're playing against didn't have Selfless Spirit on board to make do not much.
So yeah.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.