I started plating MTG back in 1997 (around Tempest for all those keeping track), and though I have played on/off since that time I started I have always been more of a control player at heart. That said, in the past year/two years I have seen wizards slowly but surely destroy control both hand and foot. They have gutted are card draw, our counter power, and most of all our identity. That said, most recently in the past 6 months I have been going back and fourth on if MTG was even worth it anymore - it seems as if they have been heading in a direction that is all creature war and little or no spells, at the end of the day a thoughtless game almost equal to heartstone.
Now, this would make since if they are trying to directly compete with hearthstone...but I feel wizards (or their head company .... which is owned by Disney) is destroying a in a sense a real fabric that keeps MTG playable and together. Does anyone remember the paper/scissors/rocks ideology of MTG...ill refresh the memory of you all...could not find the vid on youtube anymore.... Anyway, each color or archetype was clearly able to take out another, and with control loosing its identity these past few years that balance has been interrupted. When aggro is good, control is bad. When combo is good, control is bad. When mid-range is good, control is bad...is anyone seeing a pattern here? Control was always the thinking mans game, it was a type of playstyle thay used to strike fear into the MTG community - but now a days its more/less laughed at. YES, I do realize at the last pro-tour "control" won out a lot of the top spots...but those were not at heart control decks - those were meer shells of what control used to be. That said, I am at a loss right now - I love MTG and I have lived and breathed it for many many years.... Though now with the seemingly known and accepted destruction of control as an archtype I no longer see the point.
What control was has long been considered by many to be unfun and unfun is bad for business. At least control is present again with regard to Pro Tour Hawaii and granted, that was a meta deck piloted by a masterful player. I thought it pretty cool that he was able to capitalize on the prediction of an aggro and combo meta and that's some good as the tools were there. From a glass half full perspective, at least it's viable and hopefully the trend will continue in the next set. All that being said, the control decks of old are unlikely to see the light of day in Standard. Oh how I love me some Damnation, but alas, it is bound to Modern for eternity.
It's a natural result of pushing more powerful creatures to encourage playing to the board. This is a direction they have been moving for a long time. That being said, I have to disagree with your characterisation of the PT finalist decks. Those are pretty classic examples of Draw-Go style control decks, which to me is the classic style of control. Unless what you are in fact talking about are prison decks, which I must say are even less likely to be encouraged by WoTC.
I might also add that control in the past few Standard seasons has been in other forms other than Draw-Go styles. BG Seasons Past and BW Walkers for example. Before that we had Esper Dragons.
Jeskai and sorta Grixis has made a resurgence in the Draw-Go style right now. It's not quite there but I wouldn't be surprised if Aether Revolt brings some new toys for them.
The control decks in the finals were literally exactly the type of traditional draw-go control styles that people have yearned for since Sphinx's Revelation.
They just aren't as good because they don't have the same degree of inevitability as the old-school control decks. But they're there and, at least in this format, they're viable.
Also for goodness sake, the creature decks in Standard haven't been "thoughtless" at all. You don't do your argument any favors when you make claims like this. Decks like WR Vehicles and Bant Company have a ton of decision points in them and aren't remotely analogous to the creature aggro decks that existed back in the day.
Control snobs lmfao! Look, I was brought into MTG with "control" actually being able to control the game - currently there really isn't a way for "control" to do that. Our counter spells are terrible, our card draw is miserably sad; and not to mention our mass wipe spells are just about pointless at this point in the standard meta. Look, I get that control isnt fun for some people however, for some players (like myself) control is a amazingly fun game; and makes MTG what I want it to be.
I miss good prison and land destruction spells. Wizards hates my favorite archetypes more. At least control exists from time to time. Although, I joking call magic the following some times "Magic: The Summoning".
Sadly, Wizards will cater to what sells the most, and what does not have to play standard every season. I will say Kaladesh has printed some interesting non-creature cards.
Indeed, its sad that he can so obviously be catering to a large populous of players which whom just want to run creatures in on the board, and attempt a kill on turn four. I honestly dont see the fun in that what-so-ever, they give us almost an hour to play a game - why not use it?
Indeed, its sad that he can so obviously be catering to a large populous of players which whom just want to run creatures in on the board, and attempt a kill on turn four. I honestly dont see the fun in that what-so-ever, they give us almost an hour to play a game - why not use it?
Maybe because control isn't everyone's cup of tea? I find midrange match ups much better because of all the interactions you have to take into account on board and in hand, much more than aggro or control. I understand not everyone would enjoy it but I wouldn't slam on others for hating it or liking other deck styles. The Magic stereotype has been that control players (and to lesser extent combo players) LOVE to complain about how their favorite arch type is getting hated on by Wizards and misses the good old days where _____ and _____. Somehow playing anything but control is an insult to their intelligence and skill level.
Control IS viable, the Pro-Tour had proven that. It's just not as easy as it use to be with four mana board wipes and two mana counterspells. If you really value skill level, you'd take up the challenge. IMO though, the best players are the ones that play every type and not just stick with one.
Indeed, its sad that he can so obviously be catering to a large populous of players which whom just want to run creatures in on the board, and attempt a kill on turn four. I honestly dont see the fun in that what-so-ever, they give us almost an hour to play a game - why not use it?
Maybe because control isn't everyone's cup of tea? I find midrange match ups much better because of all the interactions you have to take into account on board and in hand, much more than aggro or control. I understand not everyone would enjoy it but I wouldn't slam on others for hating it or liking other deck styles. The Magic stereotype has been that control players (and to lesser extent combo players) LOVE to complain about how their favorite arch type is getting hated on by Wizards and misses the good old days where _____ and _____. Somehow playing anything but control is an insult to their intelligence and skill level.
Control IS viable, the Pro-Tour had proven that. It's just not as easy as it use to be with four mana board wipes and two mana counterspells. If you really value skill level, you'd take up the challenge. IMO though, the best players are the ones that play every type and not just stick with one.
Control has been basically non-existent since the Pro Tour.
That said, in the past year/two years I have seen wizards slowly but surely destroy control both hand and foot.
I`d like to point out that people have been complaining relentlessly about this for at least six years, which is when I joined these forums. I even remember people on here complaining about the lack of control when UW control with Sphinx`s Rev and Supreme Verdict was in standard because "only one single control deck was viable", same as when UB Control was good in Theros-Khans Standard, and just as players complained about this in Modern when UWR Control was tier 1. I honestly think that certain control players tend to complain at any time when control decks aren`t guaranteed to crush all creature decks in the format with ease. Those players should try to understand that all the other players, the majority, do not want the kind of format where you can just pack a pile of removal and counterspells and win because you are playing the superior archetype.
I`m not saying that control is doing well in Standard or Modern right now. It isn`t. All I`m saying is that the complaining from the "control snobs" (lol) is always there. Always.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
The card draw and counter spells are subpar at best, all so specific and all so lackluster. Yes, its "possible" but honestly its just not what it should be - the power has been drained (imo) from blue as a whole; and it has showed in the past two years.
So basically you are saying as long as draw-go control doesn't win a GP you won't play standard.
That is just such a silly attitude, like i said before the last two pro tours were won by control decks, why don't you just build one yourself and attune it to your local meta.
It is nonsense to think that something like that can't be viable.
Blue has a lot of decent cards, but the one card that currently keeps it all together is torrential gearhulk.
You also have great creatures like niblis of frost and thing in the ice that had great showings at the pro tour.
The counterspells are overall not as strong as counterspell but they aren't that weak either.
Void shatter exiling cards often is key to preventing delirium or recursion strategies.
And negate only costing one blue is easier on the lands, while still hitting countless relevant things.
You are just too lazy to start creating your own deck and work on it.
Control Decks always require some work of the pilot, you never can simply copy an exact list unless you accept having suboptimal meta-choices.
Besides the already mentioned decks there are also interesting builds like Jeskai dynavolt tower from travis woo and his team.
It's not often that I choose to comment on open opinion threads like this one nowadays, but I felt like I had to put my 2 cents in on this one. First off, selith69, good on ya for being with the game for this long. I've only been playing for about 11 years now myself. Second, I see threads similar to this one with every set released, which is to be expected to some degree, but I feel the term "control snob" finally just needs to go away.
I've chosen to reply to AxelStollScientist's comment not to pick on him/her in particular, but because I've seen the gist of what is being said time and time again by people who aren't "true" control players. Now I'll explain what I mean shortly, but first I want to address each part of the comment point by point to try and explain where I believe selith69 is coming from.
First, saying that they don't want to play standard as long as draw-to control doesn't win a GP isn't silly in the least. It's that particular person's opinion, which they are entitled to, just as you are to yours. To say that someone's reasons for not wanting to play a particular format (or deck, or card, or event, etc...) comes across as narrow thinking. I like to hope that the gaming community is a bit more open-minded than that.
In a similar note, thinking a particular deck type isn't currently viable isn't nonsense. Numerous players, pros and otherwise, at various times throughout various standard formats have at one time or anther stated that certain deck types are not viable given the available card pool.
In this current standard Blue does have a good amount of decent/interesting cards. What blue does not have is a lot of good control cards, and there is a distinct difference between the two.
This goes back to what I said about "true" control players. It's common knowledge that there are numerous sub-types of the three main "rock-paper-scissors" decks. Equally there are just as many sub-types of "johnny-Timmy-Spike" players. I'd say what could be considered the "true" control players prefer a more spell/non-creature based deck. They may have few to no creatures at all, using alternative means to win. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a good example.
You are correct in that there are great creatures such as Niblis of Frost, TitI, and as you say, the one keeping it all together, Torrential Gearhulk. That is the problem however. When the best thing in blue a control player can be doing is to play creatures it shows control as an archtype is severely weakened. As previously stated, while there are numerous examples of control decks utilizing creatures, the spirit behind a "true" control deck is to use either a bare minimum or none at all.
The current counterspells don't have to all be Counterspell. It's highly unlikely that we will see that spell in standard again imo. It's not that the current counterspells are weak per se, it's that they are inefficient compared to counters in standards past. Even something as simple as an Essence Scatter reprint I think would have been a welcome addition to players trying to build control decks right now.
Void Shatter can be an effective counterspell, if you happen to have it in hand. The main issue is with delirium decks is that they are able to put a lot of cards into the graveyard very quickly, while advancing their board presence. They are able to severely strain a control deck's resources with multiple "must counter" cards, straining an already small pool of counters. As for the recursion strategies, they can essentially ignore counterspells, as they are able to recur threats vial abilities, circumventing counters entirely.
Out of all the comments I see repeatedly, the "you're just too lazy to brew your own deck" is the one that honestly bugs me the most. Not everyone has the time, ability, or resources to put the enormous amounts of time needed to both brew a new deck and fine tune it. There is nothing at all wrong with netdecking, and why it's become a derogatory statement I honestly don't know. It's an elitist attitude to have to look down upon those that don't brew their own decks as lazy imo, but that's topic for a separate rant entirely.
Every deck, not just control, requires work on the part of the pilot. Aggro style decks tend to be a bit friendlier to copy-and-pasting, which is one reason why you see so many copies of them after one does well at a bigger event (and fyi I'm typically an aggro-type deck player so I speak from experience).
Some players like fast and dirty aggro decks. Some like decision-tree laden midrange decks. And some like mentally taxing control decks. And all are ok. We each have our preferences for decks, formats, cards, playstyles, etc.... As I said early on, this reply isn't picking on or calling out AxelStollScientist specifically. It just so happened that his/her comment in this thread featured numerous points I've had issue with for some time.
selith69, I think that you may find more enjoyment for now in a different format. Legacy in particular (specifically Miracles) may be more the style deck that you sound like you enjoy from times past. Best of luck in your future games regardless of format.
I don't think card draw and counters are the biggest problems control has. This metagame has some decent enough spells to draw cards, most notably Glimmer of Genius; scrying 2 than drawing 2 at Instant speed is powerful. Countermagic isn't quite what it used to be, but Void Shatter has a relevant upside and the specialty counters are either efficient (Negate, Dispel, Rejection) or at a high power level (Summary Dismissal).
I think control's biggest stumbling block is how poorly answers often match up against the diverse threats fielded by Standard decks. Vehicles, manlands, recursive beats, token creators, Planeswalkers, indestructibility being granted to the opposing team, back-breaking on-cast triggers...it's hard to have an appropriate response for all of the questions your opponent might ask.
Instant-speed removal isn't bad, but sweepers are at a power-level nadir. Radiant Flames is mediocre, Kozilek's Return only fits in a few shells, and Fumigate is just plain miserable in a format with Copter, Selfless Spirit, Avacyn, and Gideon. Wrath-effects have long been a key cornerstone of controlling decks, allowing them to survive beatdowns, but are awful in this metagame.
It's funny, there's so much anti-sweeper tech in Standard right now that Wrath of God/Day of Judgment might not even be that great, yet Wizards sees fit to print jank like Fumigate. Guess that's just the way Development does thins now...
You have 3 types of control players:
Ones that think its fun but are terrible at playing it.(most)
Those who are good at it because they run game theory in their head at all times.(players like shota and finkel)
Those who are good at it like the above but play other decks because playing control holds no challenge 99% of the time.
If youre playing control for fun, youre doing it wrong.
Its always been viable, it just gets harder to play each year.
You guys are just grasping at straws for an argument that control isn't viable. I run into it from time to time at my LGS with BG delirium and it's not a cakewalk. There are a ton of decisions to process and stack wars do happen with what little instants I run. The deck has legs. Can you slam dunk pick a 60 and jam it into every deck and win 90% of the time? No...and you shouldn't be able to because that's not a heathy meta.
All the tools are there, tools strong enough for modern play mind you. If you are tired of linear decks, build a deck that preys on them at the cost of your combo match up.
RE modern, every deck archetype has a metric ton of hate available for it...build your deck to capitalize on it. Your meta flush with affinity or elves? Go UR with forked bolt and ceremonious rejection and laugh all the way to the bank. Your meta filled with jund? Run hexproof finishers...etc etc. your meta filled with combo? Hello dispel and discard.
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Now, this would make since if they are trying to directly compete with hearthstone...but I feel wizards (or their head company .... which is owned by Disney) is destroying a in a sense a real fabric that keeps MTG playable and together. Does anyone remember the paper/scissors/rocks ideology of MTG...ill refresh the memory of you all...could not find the vid on youtube anymore.... Anyway, each color or archetype was clearly able to take out another, and with control loosing its identity these past few years that balance has been interrupted. When aggro is good, control is bad. When combo is good, control is bad. When mid-range is good, control is bad...is anyone seeing a pattern here? Control was always the thinking mans game, it was a type of playstyle thay used to strike fear into the MTG community - but now a days its more/less laughed at. YES, I do realize at the last pro-tour "control" won out a lot of the top spots...but those were not at heart control decks - those were meer shells of what control used to be. That said, I am at a loss right now - I love MTG and I have lived and breathed it for many many years.... Though now with the seemingly known and accepted destruction of control as an archtype I no longer see the point.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Jeskai and sorta Grixis has made a resurgence in the Draw-Go style right now. It's not quite there but I wouldn't be surprised if Aether Revolt brings some new toys for them.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
They just aren't as good because they don't have the same degree of inevitability as the old-school control decks. But they're there and, at least in this format, they're viable.
Also for goodness sake, the creature decks in Standard haven't been "thoughtless" at all. You don't do your argument any favors when you make claims like this. Decks like WR Vehicles and Bant Company have a ton of decision points in them and aren't remotely analogous to the creature aggro decks that existed back in the day.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Sadly, Wizards will cater to what sells the most, and what does not have to play standard every season. I will say Kaladesh has printed some interesting non-creature cards.
A poor me
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/59181618411/what-do-you-think-of-players-who-like-resource
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/96684871393/utter-end-is-a-bit-upsetting-can-we-just-have
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/70295275070/can-we-have-more-powerful-spells-not
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/76666850648/swords-to-plowshare-on-the-storm-scale
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Maybe because control isn't everyone's cup of tea? I find midrange match ups much better because of all the interactions you have to take into account on board and in hand, much more than aggro or control. I understand not everyone would enjoy it but I wouldn't slam on others for hating it or liking other deck styles. The Magic stereotype has been that control players (and to lesser extent combo players) LOVE to complain about how their favorite arch type is getting hated on by Wizards and misses the good old days where _____ and _____. Somehow playing anything but control is an insult to their intelligence and skill level.
Control IS viable, the Pro-Tour had proven that. It's just not as easy as it use to be with four mana board wipes and two mana counterspells. If you really value skill level, you'd take up the challenge. IMO though, the best players are the ones that play every type and not just stick with one.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Control has been basically non-existent since the Pro Tour.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
I`m not saying that control is doing well in Standard or Modern right now. It isn`t. All I`m saying is that the complaining from the "control snobs" (lol) is always there. Always.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
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UW Midrange is a tier 1 deck - it runs 20+ creatures. Blue control decks have not been performing well since the Pro Tour.
EDIT: The most played control deck on MTG Goldfish is Jeskai at a whopping 1.75%
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
It's not often that I choose to comment on open opinion threads like this one nowadays, but I felt like I had to put my 2 cents in on this one. First off, selith69, good on ya for being with the game for this long. I've only been playing for about 11 years now myself. Second, I see threads similar to this one with every set released, which is to be expected to some degree, but I feel the term "control snob" finally just needs to go away.
I've chosen to reply to AxelStollScientist's comment not to pick on him/her in particular, but because I've seen the gist of what is being said time and time again by people who aren't "true" control players. Now I'll explain what I mean shortly, but first I want to address each part of the comment point by point to try and explain where I believe selith69 is coming from.
First, saying that they don't want to play standard as long as draw-to control doesn't win a GP isn't silly in the least. It's that particular person's opinion, which they are entitled to, just as you are to yours. To say that someone's reasons for not wanting to play a particular format (or deck, or card, or event, etc...) comes across as narrow thinking. I like to hope that the gaming community is a bit more open-minded than that.
In a similar note, thinking a particular deck type isn't currently viable isn't nonsense. Numerous players, pros and otherwise, at various times throughout various standard formats have at one time or anther stated that certain deck types are not viable given the available card pool.
In this current standard Blue does have a good amount of decent/interesting cards. What blue does not have is a lot of good control cards, and there is a distinct difference between the two.
This goes back to what I said about "true" control players. It's common knowledge that there are numerous sub-types of the three main "rock-paper-scissors" decks. Equally there are just as many sub-types of "johnny-Timmy-Spike" players. I'd say what could be considered the "true" control players prefer a more spell/non-creature based deck. They may have few to no creatures at all, using alternative means to win. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a good example.
You are correct in that there are great creatures such as Niblis of Frost, TitI, and as you say, the one keeping it all together, Torrential Gearhulk. That is the problem however. When the best thing in blue a control player can be doing is to play creatures it shows control as an archtype is severely weakened. As previously stated, while there are numerous examples of control decks utilizing creatures, the spirit behind a "true" control deck is to use either a bare minimum or none at all.
The current counterspells don't have to all be Counterspell. It's highly unlikely that we will see that spell in standard again imo. It's not that the current counterspells are weak per se, it's that they are inefficient compared to counters in standards past. Even something as simple as an Essence Scatter reprint I think would have been a welcome addition to players trying to build control decks right now.
Void Shatter can be an effective counterspell, if you happen to have it in hand. The main issue is with delirium decks is that they are able to put a lot of cards into the graveyard very quickly, while advancing their board presence. They are able to severely strain a control deck's resources with multiple "must counter" cards, straining an already small pool of counters. As for the recursion strategies, they can essentially ignore counterspells, as they are able to recur threats vial abilities, circumventing counters entirely.
Out of all the comments I see repeatedly, the "you're just too lazy to brew your own deck" is the one that honestly bugs me the most. Not everyone has the time, ability, or resources to put the enormous amounts of time needed to both brew a new deck and fine tune it. There is nothing at all wrong with netdecking, and why it's become a derogatory statement I honestly don't know. It's an elitist attitude to have to look down upon those that don't brew their own decks as lazy imo, but that's topic for a separate rant entirely.
Every deck, not just control, requires work on the part of the pilot. Aggro style decks tend to be a bit friendlier to copy-and-pasting, which is one reason why you see so many copies of them after one does well at a bigger event (and fyi I'm typically an aggro-type deck player so I speak from experience).
Some players like fast and dirty aggro decks. Some like decision-tree laden midrange decks. And some like mentally taxing control decks. And all are ok. We each have our preferences for decks, formats, cards, playstyles, etc.... As I said early on, this reply isn't picking on or calling out AxelStollScientist specifically. It just so happened that his/her comment in this thread featured numerous points I've had issue with for some time.
selith69, I think that you may find more enjoyment for now in a different format. Legacy in particular (specifically Miracles) may be more the style deck that you sound like you enjoy from times past. Best of luck in your future games regardless of format.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
I think control's biggest stumbling block is how poorly answers often match up against the diverse threats fielded by Standard decks. Vehicles, manlands, recursive beats, token creators, Planeswalkers, indestructibility being granted to the opposing team, back-breaking on-cast triggers...it's hard to have an appropriate response for all of the questions your opponent might ask.
Instant-speed removal isn't bad, but sweepers are at a power-level nadir. Radiant Flames is mediocre, Kozilek's Return only fits in a few shells, and Fumigate is just plain miserable in a format with Copter, Selfless Spirit, Avacyn, and Gideon. Wrath-effects have long been a key cornerstone of controlling decks, allowing them to survive beatdowns, but are awful in this metagame.
It's funny, there's so much anti-sweeper tech in Standard right now that Wrath of God/Day of Judgment might not even be that great, yet Wizards sees fit to print jank like Fumigate. Guess that's just the way Development does thins now...
Ones that think its fun but are terrible at playing it.(most)
Those who are good at it because they run game theory in their head at all times.(players like shota and finkel)
Those who are good at it like the above but play other decks because playing control holds no challenge 99% of the time.
If youre playing control for fun, youre doing it wrong.
Its always been viable, it just gets harder to play each year.
torrential gearhulk is a busted magic card.
glimmer of genius is a strong magic card.
The whole spirit suite plays on its opponents turn...that's draw go. You even have a threat that's an incredible counterspell in spell queller.
Blue has access to ceremonious rejection which literally stops any combo deck in its tracks with summary dismissal backing it up.
blessed alliance is also an incredibly good card.
Red has some very interactive cards, like collective defiance.
Black has great kill spells in murder, grasp of darkness, or unlicensed disintegration.
All the tools are there, tools strong enough for modern play mind you. If you are tired of linear decks, build a deck that preys on them at the cost of your combo match up.
RE modern, every deck archetype has a metric ton of hate available for it...build your deck to capitalize on it. Your meta flush with affinity or elves? Go UR with forked bolt and ceremonious rejection and laugh all the way to the bank. Your meta filled with jund? Run hexproof finishers...etc etc. your meta filled with combo? Hello dispel and discard.