I've been trying to build a red deck that I intend to take to the Star City Games open regionals this week. I was talking about it with my roommate (Who is a long time player but hasn't played in awhile) and I said that "You know, I wish we had something like Shock in standard..." And he said, "You know things are bad when you are pining for Shock!"
I see "The Current State of U." thread.. but what about the current state of R?
When they did a card by card breakdown of EMN on the Wizard's site, the comment for Incendiary Flow was "Not the most exciting card in the set, but Red needs it to be competitive."
I saw "3 damage to target creature or player" and 2CMC and I got a playset and put it in my deck. Only to realise a little while later ... it's a Sorcery.
Seriously? 3 damage to target creature or player for 2CMC is considered 'competitive' for red? In a format where Bant gets all kinds of tricks and shenanigans Collected CompanySpell QuellerSelfless Spirit and red can't even get a barely passable instant removal?
Blue at least has a place in Standard, even if it's just Spell Queller and Reflector Mage. I don't see anyone splashing Red in Standard.
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The last couple of pages of the R\x Aggro thread have been very active since EMN released. Incendiary Flow has been a help. And actually Jund runs red for Fiery Impulse and Goblin Dark-dwellers.
However red is not at its best currently. But it does seem to be close or on the verge of a break through.
Sure, it's been active - but it is not even an 'Established' deck. It's a rogue deck with no track record to speak of. I don't see and Jund decks on MTGTop8 for the past 2 weeks (the timeframe for EMN). There is one Eldrazi Izzet but the only red spell run is Kozilek's Return.
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There are three things keeping red back right now:
1. The removal is far too weak and situational to be worth heavy consideration. Part of the trade off for Red is that since it cannot deal with big creatures particularly well, so it gains a little bit of versatility with its burn. What we have going on right now is that Red's removal is both weak and narrow. Roast is both restrictive to when you can cast it and what you target, and it doesn't have any added utility beyond being ostensibly bad removal. Fiery Impulse is extremely bad if you don't have Spell Mastery, and only decent when you do (As later in the game it is often a completley dead card). By removing the ability to target players with Red based removal, it ultimately makes red removal unplayable. Red based removal has a ceiling on what it can deal, unlike Black based removal (In general). What it gained in the past was an added bit of versatility to deal with the fact that it had a very limited shelf life and a hard "cap" on what it could deal with. Now they've removed the versatility of removal, however kept the innate restrictions on Red based removal.
To be blunt, red based-removal that can't hit players requires extreme efficiency to be playable. Something like 4 damage for 1 mana efficient. Because even at that rate, it doesn't deal with a good number of things in the format, and still can't deal with Planeswalkers (Which is the bane of Red's existence in general, let alone when none of the decent burn can target a player). Red removal needs to have versatility in what it can do to make up for the fact that red's removal tends to have a very low ceiling. If it doesn't hit a player, then it should *always* be able to hit a Planeswalker. As of right now, the red based removal is so situational that it's not at all uncommon to be stuck with a hand of red spells, even the supposed "good" ones, and have virtually nothing to do.
2. Red spells are getting punished significantly for a player trying to play them. Dromoka's Command just punishes red based decks in general, as it counters any burn spells (Which is the only way Red has to deal with anything) and leads to blow-outs. Spell-Queller just tears about trying to use any removal at all at Instant speed. Considering that the only decent removal red has currently is Sorcery speed, you are just going to get tempo'd out if you try to use Incendiary Flow. I do not understand the excitement for flow, to be honest. It's *playable*, at its best. Currently, however, it is still suspect given the nature of the top echelon of decks being played being able to punish you for acting on your turn.
Simply put, if you try to play red you will be punished for it. Nothing in red matches up particularly well at all with what any other color can do.
3. Finally, Green and White are innately hostile to red in general. Their Creature outclass Red's creatures at any given mana cost, and dodge a good amount of the removal Red has available. With Advocate, Pacifist, Reflector Mage, Spell Queller, etc. all in the format, it really leaves no room for a red-based creature deck as those decks simply can't compete with how efficient these creatures are. Midrange Creatures are generally suspect, at best, in red and simply put they do not give Red enough of them to make a deck work. Dark-Dwellers is a sweet card, but it only does so much. Chandra would be good if CoCo and Avacyn weren't waiting in the wings to punish a player for Casting a 6 mana conditional board wipe.
So, honestly, red has no active place in this format. It just cannot do enough effectively enough to compete.
With regards to #1 - I feel like every card that does damage only to a creature (and not to a player) should say "target creature or planeswalker" I have so few spells that can target players - because I need enough creature removal to survive - that I shouldn't have to split those to take out planeswalkers.
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Wizards has simply taken reds identity away, and in some cases just directly gave those attributes to other colors. The most obvious is giving fast efficient small creatures to white. Now white already had that to a point, but not on this level. Spell based damage is horribly inefficient now too. You could play incendiary flow and do 3 damage, or you could play sylvan advocate and potentially have a 4/5 vigilance that makes your land creatures bigger and do 3 times that damage each turn instead of once. Or play fiery temper and spend more mana or jump through hoops. Red has completely lost trample on efficient creatures too, so that route is useless. Haste only shows up on creatures that will immediately trade or just die to other colors cards at the same cmc. Land destruction is way over costed. Chaotic effects are limited to "exile the top card of your library, you may play it this turn". And at the top end you either play very specific dragons or Chandra. There are no high cmc red sorceries or instants that can dramatically impact a game, so even playing a control style deck is useless. Plain and simple, red is completely outclassed in ever possible category at this point. I'm not even sure that red would break through if kaladesh put a FEW broken red cards in the set. You would almost need 3-4 broken red cards in kaladesh just to get red into the discussion, and that ain't happening
I guess Wizards is trying to push big red with Bedlam Reveler, Mirrorwing Dragon, etc. The main problem with this is that red's removal is terrible and its sweeper (KR) barely hits anything relevant. Maybe rotation will bring something better, but given that development thought Incendiary Flow would push red over the top, I'm not so confident it will.
I still think there's time and space for Thunderbreak Regent + Draconic Roar to play well in standard. The effects are powerful for the investment and require little setup. I'm not sure if it's beside blue or beside black, but I'm working on it!
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Roar + Regent IS still very good. Actually still one of the best plays in magic. However landing a Regent is challenging because of the twin threat of Reflector Mage and Spell Squeller. Regent also loses to a 4/5 Advoate.
R/b Midrange is a deck that I have put some testing into. 4x Regents, 4x Dark-dwellers, 4x Dragonlord Kolaghan, Roar, Ultimate Price, Kolaghan's Command, and so. At FNM lost to Spirits, Spirits, GW Tokens.
With regards to #1 - I feel like every card that does damage only to a creature (and not to a player) should say "target creature or planeswalker" I have so few spells that can target players - because I need enough creature removal to survive - that I shouldn't have to split those to take out planeswalkers.
I agree, That more burn spells should be able to target Players and Planeswalkers preferably at instant speed. Burn at Sorcery speed hurts red by stopping you from being able to interact with your opponent playing creatures with into play effects.
[quote from="GW2GuruUser7586 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/743654-the-current-state-of-r?comment=5"]Burn at Sorcery speed hurts red by stopping you from being able to interact with your opponent playing creatures with into play effects.
More importantly, it doesn't let us respond to other situations. Selfless Spirit for example. If I try to remove something, they sac spirit. I need to be able to play ANOTHER removal while selfless spirit is on the stack (giving up 2 cards) to do what I need to do.
This is why Red is uncompetitive right now. This type of thing simply can't be done most of the time - at least not at a reasonable cost (the game will be over before I have enough mana to make that kind of a play)
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there are tons of decks that play red, the most competitive being the ramp decks (including goggles).
I have tested a lot with a boros list and incendiary flow is currently one of the most powerful spells in the format, it's also much better than lightning strike would be.
The people who are crying so much are usually the people who know the least about the format.
Every color was changed, there is no elvish visionary and no rampant growth (considered too strong) and still green decks are fine.
Same can be done with red.
okay, lets start with the first comment. Ramp right now is absolutely terrible as it consistently is beat before it can get to ulamog, or even world breaker. second, yes goggles decks have made a splash, but are entirely dependent on one card--goggles. all it does it makes average cards into good cards, which is fine; that is a decent example, but it demands a very specific build, and I have only seen it break a top 8 anywhere ONCE and that was pre EMN. I'm sure your boros list is fine, but I can almost guarantee it includes hanweir garrison as maybe it's only red creature and the rest is the same white humans used in every humans list. Unless your meta is exclusively Zombies, then I call BS on incendiary flow being better than lightning strike. The exile clause is completely irrelevant unless you are playing zombies, (even delirium decks only need one creature in the graveyard so it doesn't hold up there), so pretending THAT somehow out classes instant speed is simply delusional. No green does not have rampant growth, HOWEVER it does currently have elvish visionary which was your only other example. I guess green will have to settle for sylvan advocate turn two and play nissa's pilgrimage, or nissa herself turn 3 while being protected by the best 2 drop in standard currently. I guess having the best 2 drop and arguably the second or third best 2 drop duskwatch recruiter in standard only makes green FINE now that it doesn't have 1cmc mana dorks or 2cmc rampant growth. Red may have a few really good bombs right now like Chandra, mirrorwing, thunderbreak, or bedlam reveler, but it has no way to get to those cards without you opponent already having a completely dominant board state before you drop the first one. You show me how the same can be done with red, and I'll show you a deck that has all the same cards that the bant and GW decks are using that splashes red.
I actually think that red is significantly stronger than it was before eldritch moon, it just isn't crazy overpowered like GW is. Collective Defiance and Incendiary Flow although not super exciting are definitely upgrade. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for seeing a burn deck on the PT.
The exile clause is completely irrelevant unless you are playing zombies
It prevents delirium, it shuts off liliana recursion, it shuts down any "die" triggers (like hangarback walker or matter reshaper), it weakens den protector, it weakens pulse of murasa, it shuts off Bruna (especially if you exile gisela), it shuts off zombies, the list goes on.
And by the way, goggles ramp made top 8 in the very first scg event after EMN was released...
so what you are actually saying is, it stops hangarback walker and that's it. congratulations. Everything else on your list works completely independently of YOUR removal, unless you are playing against a total noob. which makes the card significantly worse than lightning strike and should only be sideboarded in against tokens. Or did you not realize that delirium decks are designed to put the cards they want in the graveyard? same with zombies...your argument for den protector is complete nonsense, as well as pulse of murasa, and Bruna?! so your opponent is just stuck with a massive flier that you cant touch, instead of an even more massive flier. lets not even get started on all the flash shenanigans that completely stop your sorcery speed 3 damage. so yes.....the exile clause is still completely irrelevant. but you will understand when you go play some actual games and not just goldfish
I kinda doubt Mono-R aggro or burn being a thing in the current format, but I could definitely see there being decks with heavy red influences. I have played Temur Dragons since DTK came out and it's always done well enough. I wouldn't be surprised to see a deck running Nahiri + GDD to pop up as a major contender. I'm not saying I expect it to happen, but there's plenty of potential there if someone wanted to take the time to explore the options and refine it. The problem with a R/x midrange or control builds always comes in the fine tuning of building in enough tempo to match with your control options. You aren't able to play control for the long game, you're playing tempo with enough control to slide through. Striking the right balance is an art that takes a lot of time and testing against the field. With things like Bant being so easy to build and Auto-Pilot, I don't know that anyone would want to put the effort into developing this. If it were developed to be better than current decks, it would need to be a significant advantage to be worth playing. The heightened skill requirement and more difficult choices the deck would incur would mean that if the gap in possible performance were too narrow, real world play would still favor bant or tokens that are more auto-pilot friendly.
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I kinda doubt Mono-R aggro or burn being a thing in the current format... Striking the right balance is an art that takes a lot of time and testing against the field. With things like Bant being so easy to build and Auto-Pilot, I don't know that anyone would want to put the effort into developing this. If it were developed to be better than current decks, it would need to be a significant advantage to be worth playing. The heightened skill requirement and more difficult choices the deck would incur would mean that if the gap in possible performance were too narrow, real world play would still favor bant or tokens that are more auto-pilot friendly.
Red is in bad shape. One problem is a lot of the burn currently only targets creatures. If I was splashing for a another color I would go with black since its creature removal is better than reds. Maybe we get more instant speed removal that targets players after rotation. Wizards has been cracking down on red since the first set of Zendikar.
I love red, and I feel like its gotten WORLDS better since ENM... however, its still behind par. I think red was the weakest of the colors right behind blue, then quite stronger then those were black and then miles and miles past black was GW being about even. Now the gap between the Grixis colors has closed some with both blue and red getting good love, enough to put red right with black, and blue a tiny tiny bit behind. Though in that same time, GW got tons of love as well, and stayed miles ahead.
I definitely think Red has tons of fun ways to brew right now, and could be semi competitive... but in the same way SaffronOlive decks can go sweep leagues. Because no one is prepared for them or has seen them. The second they get strong and people make a sideboard for them, they get squashed. As sad as it is, the only reason red and blue (alone, not gold) are as strong as they are right now is because the meta is busy defending against GW/Bant.
While Incendiary Flow was the single biggest boost to red from ENM, it REALLY REALLY needed to be Lightning Strike.
I also agree on the color identities being screwy... Where does red get off having decent (if not better) card draw than blue lmao.
As a side note, there is an avenue for brewing that I think has been mostly unexplored and has some potential, though as stated above, it would need a TON of testing and tweaking as well as a pro's mind to actually win with, though its been fun in my MTGO playing. Avaricious Dragon + sorcery speed burn. That card is pretty good when you cast everything as soon as you get it, and Wizards does think that Instant speed is too strong for Red anyays lol.
[quote from="GW2GuruUser7586 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/743654-the-current-state-of-r?comment=5"]Burn at Sorcery speed hurts red by stopping you from being able to interact with your opponent playing creatures with into play effects.
More importantly, it doesn't let us respond to other situations. Selfless Spirit for example. If I try to remove something, they sac spirit. I need to be able to play ANOTHER removal while selfless spirit is on the stack (giving up 2 cards) to do what I need to do.
This is why Red is uncompetitive right now. This type of thing simply can't be done most of the time - at least not at a reasonable cost (the game will be over before I have enough mana to make that kind of a play)
I think that selfless spirit is gonna make combat weird in addition to making removal spells worse. I was playing against my buddy on bant coc and he had 2 out at the same time, which was a nightmare
I actually think that red is significantly stronger than it was before eldritch moon, it just isn't crazy overpowered like GW is. Collective Defiance and Incendiary Flow although not super exciting are definitely upgrade. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for seeing a burn deck on the PT.
I feel people are trying to brew with red more now that EMN is out, red seems to have gotten some good toys this set
I love red, and I feel like its gotten WORLDS better since ENM... however, its still behind par. I think red was the weakest of the colors right behind blue, then quite stronger then those were black and then miles and miles past black was GW being about even. Now the gap between the Grixis colors has closed some with both blue and red getting good love, enough to put red right with black, and blue a tiny tiny bit behind. Though in that same time, GW got tons of love as well, and stayed miles ahead.
I definitely think Red has tons of fun ways to brew right now, and could be semi competitive... but in the same way SaffronOlive decks can go sweep leagues. Because no one is prepared for them or has seen them. The second they get strong and people make a sideboard for them, they get squashed. As sad as it is, the only reason red and blue (alone, not gold) are as strong as they are right now is because the meta is busy defending against GW/Bant.
While Incendiary Flow was the single biggest boost to red from ENM, it REALLY REALLY needed to be Lightning Strike.
I also agree on the color identities being screwy... Where does red get off having decent (if not better) card draw than blue lmao.
As a side note, there is an avenue for brewing that I think has been mostly unexplored and has some potential, though as stated above, it would need a TON of testing and tweaking as well as a pro's mind to actually win with, though its been fun in my MTGO playing. Avaricious Dragon + sorcery speed burn. That card is pretty good when you cast everything as soon as you get it, and Wizards does think that Instant speed is too strong for Red anyays lol.
Where is Red? Hanging out with blue in the "Wizards doesn't like to print good counter magic and burn anymore" room. This could change with Kaladesh because it's Chandra's home plane. Red will also be loosing the only decent(non dragon list) burn spells fiery impulse and exq firecraft. The will need to print a really good burn spell or they have lost their minds. The experimented making Red about bigger creatures...it failed...correction, it failed because wizards did it wrong. The could have printed 3 or 4 awesome werewolves to make g/r a viable deck but they decided not to. The could have printed 3 or 4 awesome vamps(AND A PROPER VAMP LORD!!!!) but they decided not to(pretty sad when humans can outrace vampires and werewolves...apparently innistrad is a great place to be if you're human. Olivia and Drana could have formed a backbone to an amazing deck if they properly supported vamps. Werewolves may have at least stood a chance if they just reprinted huntmaster of the fells(functional or directly).
To sum up, Red, like Blue, is in a very bad place until Sept 30th. Wizards seemingly likes board states that has 50 million 2/3s bouncing off each other, because nothin says fun like 20 minute turns with 800 million triggers(hyperbole). Luckily, Kaledesh will be the biggest shake up since BFZ thanks to Coco leaving since Bant basically picked up where Rally left off.
Remember pre BFZ. When there was an actual meta game. Where Dragons could fly over rhinos and win. Where a pair a giant scissors kicked butt for artifacts. Where Red actually had lightning strike(seriously wizards...incendary flow...who cares if it exiles unless you were afraid zombies were OP). Yes I know Siege Rhino sucked but but it was not 25% of the friggin meta game to the point that Coco was still a card and not nearly as powerful since wizards created other archetypes and didn't force you to splash green.
Where is Red? Hanging out with blue in the "Wizards doesn't like to print good counter magic and burn anymore" room. This could change with Kaladesh because it's Chandra's home plane. Red will also be loosing the only decent(non dragon list) burn spells fiery impulse and exq firecraft. The will need to print a really good burn spell or they have lost their minds. The experimented making Red about bigger creatures...it failed...correction, it failed because wizards did it wrong. The could have printed 3 or 4 awesome werewolves to make g/r a viable deck but they decided not to. The could have printed 3 or 4 awesome vamps(AND A PROPER VAMP LORD!!!!) but they decided not to(pretty sad when humans can outrace vampires and werewolves...apparently innistrad is a great place to be if you're human. Olivia and Drana could have formed a backbone to an amazing deck if they properly supported vamps. Werewolves may have at least stood a chance if they just reprinted huntmaster of the fells(functional or directly).
To sum up, Red, like Blue, is in a very bad place until Sept 30th. Wizards seemingly likes board states that has 50 million 2/3s bouncing off each other, because nothin says fun like 20 minute turns with 800 million triggers(hyperbole). Luckily, Kaledesh will be the biggest shake up since BFZ thanks to Coco leaving since Bant basically picked up where Rally left off.
Remember pre BFZ. When there was an actual meta game. Where Dragons could fly over rhinos and win. Where a pair a giant scissors kicked butt for artifacts. Where Red actually had lightning strike(seriously wizards...incendary flow...who cares if it exiles unless you were afraid zombies were OP). Yes I know Siege Rhino sucked but but it was not 25% of the friggin meta game to the point that Coco was still a card and not nearly as powerful since wizards created other archetypes and didn't force you to splash green.
This. Thank you for pointing out how incendiary flows exile ability is not as relevant as lighting strikes instant speed. I tried to say this above but got a blatant insult thrown at me for daring to say that incendiary flow doesn't completely shut down delirium. but then again, if you play delirium, and don't have a specific gameplan to put the cards you want in the GY and incendiary flow can shut you down, then you deserve to lose
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I see "The Current State of U." thread.. but what about the current state of R?
When they did a card by card breakdown of EMN on the Wizard's site, the comment for Incendiary Flow was "Not the most exciting card in the set, but Red needs it to be competitive."
I saw "3 damage to target creature or player" and 2CMC and I got a playset and put it in my deck. Only to realise a little while later ... it's a Sorcery.
Seriously? 3 damage to target creature or player for 2CMC is considered 'competitive' for red? In a format where Bant gets all kinds of tricks and shenanigans Collected Company Spell Queller Selfless Spirit and red can't even get a barely passable instant removal?
Blue at least has a place in Standard, even if it's just Spell Queller and Reflector Mage. I don't see anyone splashing Red in Standard.
However red is not at its best currently. But it does seem to be close or on the verge of a break through.
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1. The removal is far too weak and situational to be worth heavy consideration. Part of the trade off for Red is that since it cannot deal with big creatures particularly well, so it gains a little bit of versatility with its burn. What we have going on right now is that Red's removal is both weak and narrow. Roast is both restrictive to when you can cast it and what you target, and it doesn't have any added utility beyond being ostensibly bad removal. Fiery Impulse is extremely bad if you don't have Spell Mastery, and only decent when you do (As later in the game it is often a completley dead card). By removing the ability to target players with Red based removal, it ultimately makes red removal unplayable. Red based removal has a ceiling on what it can deal, unlike Black based removal (In general). What it gained in the past was an added bit of versatility to deal with the fact that it had a very limited shelf life and a hard "cap" on what it could deal with. Now they've removed the versatility of removal, however kept the innate restrictions on Red based removal.
To be blunt, red based-removal that can't hit players requires extreme efficiency to be playable. Something like 4 damage for 1 mana efficient. Because even at that rate, it doesn't deal with a good number of things in the format, and still can't deal with Planeswalkers (Which is the bane of Red's existence in general, let alone when none of the decent burn can target a player). Red removal needs to have versatility in what it can do to make up for the fact that red's removal tends to have a very low ceiling. If it doesn't hit a player, then it should *always* be able to hit a Planeswalker. As of right now, the red based removal is so situational that it's not at all uncommon to be stuck with a hand of red spells, even the supposed "good" ones, and have virtually nothing to do.
2. Red spells are getting punished significantly for a player trying to play them. Dromoka's Command just punishes red based decks in general, as it counters any burn spells (Which is the only way Red has to deal with anything) and leads to blow-outs. Spell-Queller just tears about trying to use any removal at all at Instant speed. Considering that the only decent removal red has currently is Sorcery speed, you are just going to get tempo'd out if you try to use Incendiary Flow. I do not understand the excitement for flow, to be honest. It's *playable*, at its best. Currently, however, it is still suspect given the nature of the top echelon of decks being played being able to punish you for acting on your turn.
Simply put, if you try to play red you will be punished for it. Nothing in red matches up particularly well at all with what any other color can do.
3. Finally, Green and White are innately hostile to red in general. Their Creature outclass Red's creatures at any given mana cost, and dodge a good amount of the removal Red has available. With Advocate, Pacifist, Reflector Mage, Spell Queller, etc. all in the format, it really leaves no room for a red-based creature deck as those decks simply can't compete with how efficient these creatures are. Midrange Creatures are generally suspect, at best, in red and simply put they do not give Red enough of them to make a deck work. Dark-Dwellers is a sweet card, but it only does so much. Chandra would be good if CoCo and Avacyn weren't waiting in the wings to punish a player for Casting a 6 mana conditional board wipe.
So, honestly, red has no active place in this format. It just cannot do enough effectively enough to compete.
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Roar + Regent IS still very good. Actually still one of the best plays in magic. However landing a Regent is challenging because of the twin threat of Reflector Mage and Spell Squeller. Regent also loses to a 4/5 Advoate.
R/b Midrange is a deck that I have put some testing into. 4x Regents, 4x Dark-dwellers, 4x Dragonlord Kolaghan, Roar, Ultimate Price, Kolaghan's Command, and so. At FNM lost to Spirits, Spirits, GW Tokens.
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The pro Tour is this weekend, so pros might have something up their sleeves
All Bant - I assure you.
I think there's bound to be something interesting come up at the PT. I mean the best minds in the game will be there.
Bant and humans were pretty popular before last PT and there were still several decks that innovated the format
More importantly, it doesn't let us respond to other situations. Selfless Spirit for example. If I try to remove something, they sac spirit. I need to be able to play ANOTHER removal while selfless spirit is on the stack (giving up 2 cards) to do what I need to do.
This is why Red is uncompetitive right now. This type of thing simply can't be done most of the time - at least not at a reasonable cost (the game will be over before I have enough mana to make that kind of a play)
okay, lets start with the first comment. Ramp right now is absolutely terrible as it consistently is beat before it can get to ulamog, or even world breaker. second, yes goggles decks have made a splash, but are entirely dependent on one card--goggles. all it does it makes average cards into good cards, which is fine; that is a decent example, but it demands a very specific build, and I have only seen it break a top 8 anywhere ONCE and that was pre EMN. I'm sure your boros list is fine, but I can almost guarantee it includes hanweir garrison as maybe it's only red creature and the rest is the same white humans used in every humans list. Unless your meta is exclusively Zombies, then I call BS on incendiary flow being better than lightning strike. The exile clause is completely irrelevant unless you are playing zombies, (even delirium decks only need one creature in the graveyard so it doesn't hold up there), so pretending THAT somehow out classes instant speed is simply delusional. No green does not have rampant growth, HOWEVER it does currently have elvish visionary which was your only other example. I guess green will have to settle for sylvan advocate turn two and play nissa's pilgrimage, or nissa herself turn 3 while being protected by the best 2 drop in standard currently. I guess having the best 2 drop and arguably the second or third best 2 drop duskwatch recruiter in standard only makes green FINE now that it doesn't have 1cmc mana dorks or 2cmc rampant growth. Red may have a few really good bombs right now like Chandra, mirrorwing, thunderbreak, or bedlam reveler, but it has no way to get to those cards without you opponent already having a completely dominant board state before you drop the first one. You show me how the same can be done with red, and I'll show you a deck that has all the same cards that the bant and GW decks are using that splashes red.
so what you are actually saying is, it stops hangarback walker and that's it. congratulations. Everything else on your list works completely independently of YOUR removal, unless you are playing against a total noob. which makes the card significantly worse than lightning strike and should only be sideboarded in against tokens. Or did you not realize that delirium decks are designed to put the cards they want in the graveyard? same with zombies...your argument for den protector is complete nonsense, as well as pulse of murasa, and Bruna?! so your opponent is just stuck with a massive flier that you cant touch, instead of an even more massive flier. lets not even get started on all the flash shenanigans that completely stop your sorcery speed 3 damage. so yes.....the exile clause is still completely irrelevant. but you will understand when you go play some actual games and not just goldfish
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I definitely think Red has tons of fun ways to brew right now, and could be semi competitive... but in the same way SaffronOlive decks can go sweep leagues. Because no one is prepared for them or has seen them. The second they get strong and people make a sideboard for them, they get squashed. As sad as it is, the only reason red and blue (alone, not gold) are as strong as they are right now is because the meta is busy defending against GW/Bant.
While Incendiary Flow was the single biggest boost to red from ENM, it REALLY REALLY needed to be Lightning Strike.
I also agree on the color identities being screwy... Where does red get off having decent (if not better) card draw than blue lmao.
As a side note, there is an avenue for brewing that I think has been mostly unexplored and has some potential, though as stated above, it would need a TON of testing and tweaking as well as a pro's mind to actually win with, though its been fun in my MTGO playing. Avaricious Dragon + sorcery speed burn. That card is pretty good when you cast everything as soon as you get it, and Wizards does think that Instant speed is too strong for Red anyays lol.
I think that selfless spirit is gonna make combat weird in addition to making removal spells worse. I was playing against my buddy on bant coc and he had 2 out at the same time, which was a nightmare
I feel people are trying to brew with red more now that EMN is out, red seems to have gotten some good toys this set
To sum up, Red, like Blue, is in a very bad place until Sept 30th. Wizards seemingly likes board states that has 50 million 2/3s bouncing off each other, because nothin says fun like 20 minute turns with 800 million triggers(hyperbole). Luckily, Kaledesh will be the biggest shake up since BFZ thanks to Coco leaving since Bant basically picked up where Rally left off.
Remember pre BFZ. When there was an actual meta game. Where Dragons could fly over rhinos and win. Where a pair a giant scissors kicked butt for artifacts. Where Red actually had lightning strike(seriously wizards...incendary flow...who cares if it exiles unless you were afraid zombies were OP). Yes I know Siege Rhino sucked but but it was not 25% of the friggin meta game to the point that Coco was still a card and not nearly as powerful since wizards created other archetypes and didn't force you to splash green.