I'm building RDW for this standard. It might end up being Rakdos if I need access to Black for discard and removal, but I'm trying to stay Red, because I believe every problem can be solved with fire. I pulled up the latest Open results on SCG and saw 3 of the top 8 were Bant Company. Right now, Bant looks vicious. How should I attack it? I don't think I can out-pace it. All those 2 drops are stupid fast. The cards that worry me such as Spell Queller, Reflector Mage, and Sylvan Advocate all have 3 points of toughness, so Kozilek's Return won't sweep them away. I have burn that can kill them, but if I go 1 for 1 on their critters, I'll probably run out of answers before they run out of critters.
I was thinking of sitting back and playing defensive, using selective burn on certain creatures and attacking the mana base with Crumble to Dust and Structural Distortion. I hate laying back when I'm playing Red.
Draconic Roar confuses me a bit. When I read it, it reads like an either/or. IF I show or control a dragon, THEN do three damage to target creature's controller, ELSE do three damage to target creature. Is it that way or is it more like an AND statement where you get both effects if you show/control a dragon?
Collective Defiance was originally in my deck, but I cut it for Exquisite Firecraft. I like it and I want to use it, but I only have so many slots for 3 drops. I can swap it out and see if I like it better. Like most people, I'm a big fan of modal cards. I like the flexibility.
Bant Company, as an archetype, shifts between being tempo or midrange, and is incredibly proficient at playing both. To out-tempo Collected Company (which is basically casting two spells in a turn off one physical card and 4 mana) putting Reflector Mage and something else into play is not possible in the midgame. To out-draw a deck playing Duskwatch Recruiter, Tireless Tracker, and Nissa, Vastwood Seer is also very difficult by conventional means. So, how do you attack such an efficient and versatile archetype? You either need to get completely under it with an all-in aggro deck (a la Boss Humans) or go over the top of it with a game plan that renders their previous tempo/efficiency gains irrelevant (a la BW Angels).
Notice that the primary means of attacking the life total in this deck comes with direct damage and Thunderbreak Regent, a card that lines up very well against the ground-dwelling creatures of Bant (and it gets in at least 3 damage if they reflect it back to your hand). Trying the RDW style of olden days where you pushed an early board advantage (similar to what Humans do) won't work with the current card pool and isn't even a viable strategy against a deck that can flip Archangel Avacyn on demand and bring in Planar Outburst from the side. Be forewarned that Dromoka's Command and Spell Queller are very, very good against the all-in Burn plan, however.
Alternatively, an over-the-top approach of something like Todd Anderson UR Goggles or Brad Nelson (piloted here by Matt Voltz) GR Goggles (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105594) will allow you to invalidate the efficient Bant small-ball game with redundant sweepers, gigantic threats, and piles of card advantage. Personally, I think this is the most viable method of dismantling Bant.
Aside from copying Open/GP lists, I'd recommend that you do some reading on magic archetypes and role assessment to better understand how the game functions at a strategic level. Also, give up the LD dream. 4 mana Stone Rain is horrendously slow without mana dorks, and will get you dead very fast if that's your gameplan against Bant.
This is basically what I'm going to try to play this Friday night. Just a quick burn mono red deck. I have Draconic Roar X4 and 4 flying dragons plus the 4 thermo-alchemist cards. Some quick drop 1/1 and mainly sorcery / instant casts. But if I don't win in the first six or seven turns I'm in big trouble .
Thanks for the advice. Sounds like a depressing time to be playing anything other than Bant.
There are lots of archetypes. Only one can be the best at any given time. The chance that it is your preferred deck is small. It comes down to priorities. If you want to win: play the best deck or a deck that can beat the best deck.
If winning is less important to to you, and you want to play a given archetype no matter what the results, then your feelings are up to you. Being depressed about the choices I am making seems unpleasant.
Two seasons ago, I chose to play Mardu Green against the best deck (Rally). I did well enough, although I lost to Rally a lot. I regretted the choice, but not for the reasons you might think. Rally was a more complex deck. I regretted it because I would have learned more as a player by playing Rally.
Last season, I played Bant Humans. It was not the best deck: Green-White Tokens was acclaimed as such. Still, I was happy with the deck and I think I learned as much from playing it as I would have playing GW Tokens.
My advice is: understand your choices and their ramifications. Make a choice that won't leave you feeling depressed.
This is basically what I'm going to try to play this Friday night. Just a quick burn mono red deck. I have Draconic Roar X4 and 4 flying dragons plus the 4 thermo-alchemist cards. Some quick drop 1/1 and mainly sorcery / instant casts. But if I don't win in the first six or seven turns I'm in big trouble .
I played against my friend's B/R vampire madness deck last night. I know it's not the dreaded Bant deck, but it's still plenty fast. It just doesn't have the annoying control tricks of Bant. I didn't do as badly as I expected, winning about 40% of the time. Plenty of misplays on both sides, one of which definitely cost me a game.
I looked at the tokens package mentioned in an earlier post, and I might try to fit it in. Right now, I'm using Hounds that get big really fast given the number of instants and sorceries I use (19 in main deck). Goggles has been a bigger player than I expected, allowing me to stretch my burn and either split it, or send it all to player or ground.
I have not been able to test it against Bant, specifically, but it beats token decks and after sideboarding beats Golgari Sacrifice (Aristocrats) (The sideboard removes some creatures for more Thermo Alchemist and Weaver of Lightning)
The only decks I've smashed my head against the wall so far trying to beat have been black-heavy decks with lots of spot removal (Grasp of Darkness, Anguished Unmaking, Ruinous Path, Dead Weight, Languish, etc, etc) None of the other colours have this much removal.
Against pretty much every other deck I've payed I can keep the board clear enough for my Furyblades to get through and it's so fast I'm usually amazed when I realise my opponent is at 6 health by turn 4. I can usually turn around a Collected Company by using Lightning Axe discarding Alchemist's Greeting (knowing full well I am using 2 cards to deal with 1 CoCo)
Again - haven't been able to find someone to test vs Bant specifically (I can imagine CoCo into Reflector Mage might shut me down long enough for them to get a foothold.) but generally speaking I've been having positive results with this.
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OKay, I managed to test vs Bant. The trick is to kill everything they have as soon as you can. I once had a situation where I could take out a lone Reflector Mage on their turn, but decided to wait for a bigger threat - then they dropped a Tireless Tracker and a selfless spirit when I was tapped out.
Always try to remove a selfless spirit on their turn, if you can. Then they can't blindly block and kill your low toughness attackers and sac spirits - they will legitimately have to trade. I put Weaver of Lightning in my main deck specifically so I can cast something and ping of a spirit if need be.
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The only decks I've smashed my head against the wall so far trying to beat have been black-heavy decks with lots of spot removal (Grasp of Darkness, Anguished Unmaking, Ruinous Path, Dead Weight, Languish, etc, etc) None of the other colours have this much removal.
B/W is pretty much an unwinnable matchup for Red-based aggro decks. I play B/R Vamps/Madness myself and I repeatedly get crushed by it on MODO. The problem is that they have cheap removal game 1. They are so geared toward beating smaller creatures that they might as well be pre-boarded against us.
OP: I'm thinking of going big post board. Side in Thunderbreak Regents and more removal and taking out my one-drops. You can not beat them on the ground. R/B Madness can play a lot of fliers so I'm thinking fliers+a ton of removal. Mono Red can do similar things.
I was thinking of sitting back and playing defensive, using selective burn on certain creatures and attacking the mana base with Crumble to Dust and Structural Distortion. I hate laying back when I'm playing Red.
What are your thoughts?
Collective Defiance was originally in my deck, but I cut it for Exquisite Firecraft. I like it and I want to use it, but I only have so many slots for 3 drops. I can swap it out and see if I like it better. Like most people, I'm a big fan of modal cards. I like the flexibility.
If you're really set on playing red, the aggro approach will look something like Max McVety's deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105615
Notice that the primary means of attacking the life total in this deck comes with direct damage and Thunderbreak Regent, a card that lines up very well against the ground-dwelling creatures of Bant (and it gets in at least 3 damage if they reflect it back to your hand). Trying the RDW style of olden days where you pushed an early board advantage (similar to what Humans do) won't work with the current card pool and isn't even a viable strategy against a deck that can flip Archangel Avacyn on demand and bring in Planar Outburst from the side. Be forewarned that Dromoka's Command and Spell Queller are very, very good against the all-in Burn plan, however.
Alternatively, an over-the-top approach of something like Todd Anderson UR Goggles or Brad Nelson (piloted here by Matt Voltz) GR Goggles (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105594) will allow you to invalidate the efficient Bant small-ball game with redundant sweepers, gigantic threats, and piles of card advantage. Personally, I think this is the most viable method of dismantling Bant.
Aside from copying Open/GP lists, I'd recommend that you do some reading on magic archetypes and role assessment to better understand how the game functions at a strategic level. Also, give up the LD dream. 4 mana Stone Rain is horrendously slow without mana dorks, and will get you dead very fast if that's your gameplan against Bant.
If winning is less important to to you, and you want to play a given archetype no matter what the results, then your feelings are up to you. Being depressed about the choices I am making seems unpleasant.
Two seasons ago, I chose to play Mardu Green against the best deck (Rally). I did well enough, although I lost to Rally a lot. I regretted the choice, but not for the reasons you might think. Rally was a more complex deck. I regretted it because I would have learned more as a player by playing Rally.
Last season, I played Bant Humans. It was not the best deck: Green-White Tokens was acclaimed as such. Still, I was happy with the deck and I think I learned as much from playing it as I would have playing GW Tokens.
My advice is: understand your choices and their ramifications. Make a choice that won't leave you feeling depressed.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I looked at the tokens package mentioned in an earlier post, and I might try to fit it in. Right now, I'm using Hounds that get big really fast given the number of instants and sorceries I use (19 in main deck). Goggles has been a bigger player than I expected, allowing me to stretch my burn and either split it, or send it all to player or ground.
I have not been able to test it against Bant, specifically, but it beats token decks and after sideboarding beats Golgari Sacrifice (Aristocrats) (The sideboard removes some creatures for more Thermo Alchemist and Weaver of Lightning)
The only decks I've smashed my head against the wall so far trying to beat have been black-heavy decks with lots of spot removal (Grasp of Darkness, Anguished Unmaking, Ruinous Path, Dead Weight, Languish, etc, etc) None of the other colours have this much removal.
Against pretty much every other deck I've payed I can keep the board clear enough for my Furyblades to get through and it's so fast I'm usually amazed when I realise my opponent is at 6 health by turn 4. I can usually turn around a Collected Company by using Lightning Axe discarding Alchemist's Greeting (knowing full well I am using 2 cards to deal with 1 CoCo)
Again - haven't been able to find someone to test vs Bant specifically (I can imagine CoCo into Reflector Mage might shut me down long enough for them to get a foothold.) but generally speaking I've been having positive results with this.
Always try to remove a selfless spirit on their turn, if you can. Then they can't blindly block and kill your low toughness attackers and sac spirits - they will legitimately have to trade. I put Weaver of Lightning in my main deck specifically so I can cast something and ping of a spirit if need be.
B/W is pretty much an unwinnable matchup for Red-based aggro decks. I play B/R Vamps/Madness myself and I repeatedly get crushed by it on MODO. The problem is that they have cheap removal game 1. They are so geared toward beating smaller creatures that they might as well be pre-boarded against us.
OP: I'm thinking of going big post board. Side in Thunderbreak Regents and more removal and taking out my one-drops. You can not beat them on the ground. R/B Madness can play a lot of fliers so I'm thinking fliers+a ton of removal. Mono Red can do similar things.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward: