Horribly Awry is just a generally terrible card; there's a reason that Essence Scatter doesn't see play, even in creature-dense metas. It has too high of a fail cost to be worthwhile, and Horribly Awry is pretty much a worse Essence Scatter.
Fiery Impulse is equally a plain bad card that only sees (marginal) play due to a lack of good options at all. The difference between 2 and 3 damage is a huge one in this format, and Impulse difficult to have Mastery on early enough. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that much of the time you are simply better off running Draconic Roar, even if you have no synergy with dragons at all. I have found the difference between 2 and 3 damage to be significantly more important than the difference between 1 and 2 mana.
Now, a 2 mana spell that deals damage only to creatures is also not very good at all.
Suggesting what are effectively bad cards to try and beat the absurdity that is Bant CoCo and GW in general is... an interesting proposition. Particularly given that Impulse doesn't particularly line up well against the decks anyway, and Horribly Awry can very quickly go Horribly Awry with nothing more than a Sylvan Advocate on board.
Impulse kills every card in the bant company deck if you have spell mastery.
If you don't have it it still kills tireless tracker, selfless spirit, duskwatch recruiter, Thalia and Nissa.
Calling it bad is simply absurd.
Horribly Awry also seems like a decent card, there just hasn't been a deck that would want to play it.
I'm with you on Impulse. I think it's a fine piece of red removal. It's not particularly good, but it does a reasonable job.
I'm with you on Impulse. I think it's a fine piece of red removal. It's not particularly good, but it does a reasonable job.
Horribly Awry though is a very poor card.
Perhaps I exaggerrated on Impulse a bit, but I still do not feel it is good at all. It's mediocre removal that is played out of necessity. Spell mastery is not particularly easy to get online particularly early, and it's floor is quite bad, with a ceiling that is only just playable.
You will have to forgive me, however, for not being particularly interested in trying to answer excellent, above the curve creatures with somewhat mediocre removal that often does not line up very well with the threat they present (And even when it does, cards like Command, Spell Queller, Avacyn, and CoCo all leave a bad taste in your mouth when you try to use it).
I think if they ban Coco that probably would resolve most of the issues currently going on with standard. It's just a very powerful card in a vacuum of mediocrity and really the problem isn't so much Coco as is the entirety of the current set blocks we are working with. Kahns block was just head over heels a faster block than either BFZ or Shadows blocks.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think banning reflector mage is the right call. He just makes so many creatures completely unplayable. Kalitas sees sideboards. Mindwrack demon can't even. And the list goes on. Queller is new, but killable, and you get your spell back immediately once it's dead. Coco will not be banned. It's got -3 months left.
Wizards: "we'll never reprint man o war in standard because it was too good." Prints reflector Mage.....
Ban nothing. Get your WoW and LoL mentality out of my game. We have 3 months till CoCo rotates. There will be no bannings. With faster rotation there will be less bannings in the future as well.
There will be no banned cards so long as the meta isn't completely drenched in the same color(s) with the same exact cards.
They didn't ban Thragtusk for example, and it was everywhere.
I'm surprised people would entertain this idea, as a gamer I don't rally against a challenge I try to overcome it.
So if you don't like reflector mage, maybe run countermagic, or hand disruption, or maybe just control in general.
If you believe YOU need a ban to have fun, maybe you should take a break.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
There will be no banned cards so long as the meta isn't completely drenched in the same color(s) with the same exact cards.
They didn't ban Thragtusk for example, and it was everywhere.
I'm surprised people would entertain this idea, as a gamer I don't rally against a challenge I try to overcome it.
So if you don't like reflector mage, maybe run countermagic, or hand disruption, or maybe just control in general.
If you believe YOU need a ban to have fun, maybe you should take a break.
Duskwatch Recruiter, Sylvan Advocate, and Lambolt Pacifist all punish plans to attack CoCo through counterspells. Dromoka's Command, Avacyn, and CoCo all punish a player trying to attack CoCo through removal. Spell Queller now allows the deck to punish both of these in one card. Not only that, but sweepers of any sort already are pretty bad against the deck due to CoCo and Avacyn. Running a mix of Removal/Countermagic isn't particularly useful as it leads to having the wrong half of the equation at the wrong time.
Which brings us to creature decks. This would be all fine and dandy, but both Red and Black's creatures are generally worse on curve than Green and Whites, and Blue's creatures are pretty narrow. If you go an aggro plan, you get destroyed by Green and White's better creature base. If you go Midrange, you get destroyed by Reflector Mage and Spell Queller, both of which effectively time walk you.
So you go Combo, right? There are some good Combo enchantments right now. Except, of course, that Bant and other G/W/x decks running maindeck enchantment removal that is incidentally hated out.
Suggesting that the way to beat a deck is through using Countermagic and Removal, when said deck was already quite resilient to Removal and Countermagic (And only gets more resilient with EMN), is pretty damn silly. There is nothing to solve here, as the questions being asked by Bant and other G/W decks do not have any reasonable answers. The simple (And only consistent) answer to CoCo is to get under it before it's engines get online. Trying to go over it with control is just not a good plan at all, and there is a reason why no deck could consistently hold a decent share of the metagame. Previously, you had Mono-White Humans and G/W tokens that could reasonably get under it. G/W tokens is still a deck, but as it gained effectively nothing to help against Bant and Bant gained Spell Queller (Which is an absurd card and will have a remarkably unhealthy effect on the format for at least the next 3 months). So CoCo has a net gain against G/W. Mono-White is till viable.
As I said before, there isn't much that can be done- the issue with the format is that Green and White were given tools that are miles ahead of Black/Red/Blue. This format's failing is entirely a developmental issue that was completely avoidable and forseeable, but not one caused by any singular card. The blue cards being run are being run only in the context of Green and White, which begs the quetion of whethere these cards are actually good enough on their own. I have my suspicions, for instance, that Spirits is not quite as good a people state or anticipate, and it seems like a generally worse CoCo deck.
I honestly predict we are enter a 2-deck format (And maybe a 3rd much worse deck). You play CoCo, the one deck that actually beats CoCo consistently (Mono-White humans), or you just accept that you are losing against over half the field.
Keep in mind this has nothing to do with me trying to net-deck; I am a deck builder first and foremost, and can usually find a deck that can attack the field on some unique axis. This format is downright miserable for this sort of deck-building; G/W decks are just so incredibly punishing and efficient that there is no actual way to reasonably attack them. People who say you just need to figure it out fail to realize some very important reasons as to why nobody has figured it out.
Equally, I have put in a *lot* of hours playtesting several different decks and several different spectrums againt the coming field. And I have learned only one thing:
This is not a format that I want to play. I would rather play Modern, a format I rather dislike a great deal for various reason, than Standard currently. The fact that I am quitting standard for the first time in five years is quite telling. For god's sake, I was a person playing Mono-Red Aggro during Thragtusk standard. I can play through formats where the decks I play are "bad". I will not play through a format where I am actively punished for trying to play something not on the G/W spectrum.
Every Midrange creature and deck gets chewed aparat by Spell Queller and Reflector Mage. Every control deck gets chewed apart by Advocates, Avacyn's, and Quellers. Every aggro deck by Advocates and Dromoka's COmmand. Every synergy deck gets chewed apart by Quellers and Commands.
This is the biggest middle-finger format I have seen in quite some time; CoCo decks and the like are absolutely amazing at telling all other decks "No, you may not" to literally everything they try to do. A likeable comparison is back when Faeries was big in Standard. This is not a commendable thing. This is an indication that the format has gone horribly wrong.
I think you are failing to see the point. There is no "easy" way to beat bant company. Sure there are spells like languish, planar outburst and so on, but you have to draw those cards first. Bant has a multitude of options set up for them, and answers to many situations they encounter. It's fast, cheap cmc and efficiency are a struggle to keep up with for most decks. You can say how sultai and b/w angels do well but these are people who have been doing this for quite some time. You can't just add a bunch of "fatties" or burn spells into your deck to make it work. The problem is green and white are TOO efficient. Roast the advocate? Nah I'm good, dramokas command it and remove one of your creatures from play while I'm at it, then swing with a 9/9 lumbering falls.
I think you are failing to see the point. There is no "easy" way to beat bant company. Sure there are spells like languish, planar outburst and so on, but you have to draw those cards first. Bant has a multitude of options set up for them, and answers to many situations they encounter.
It's not so much that you have to draw them first, it's that these cards are exceedingly easy to play around *as well* as easy to punish a player for trying to play them. An intelligent CoCo player will absolutely demolish any person trying to get to Languish, Descend, or Planar Outburst. Hell, that's what the entire point of the namesake card is. If they play poorly, then sure. You can win. If they have even the remotest sense of role assessment and understanding of what they need to be doing, then no it will not work at all. It's not that there aren't "easy" answers, its that the answers that exist are remarkably easy to play and punish. Avacyn, Spell Queller, and Collected Company all make mincemeat out of the sweapers. Advocate and Pacifist destroy any form of "slow" control.
It's fast, cheap cmc and efficiency are a struggle to keep up with for most decks. You can say how sultai and b/w angels do well but these are people who have been doing this for quite some time. You can't just add a bunch of "fatties" or burn spells into your deck to make it work. The problem is green and white are TOO efficient. Roast the advocate? Nah I'm good, dramokas command it and remove one of your creatures from play while I'm at it, then swing with a 9/9 lumbering falls.
I feel that those control decks did well solely because the CoCo players were not prepared in the least for them, nor what to expect. CoCo has all the tools to easily ruin Sultai and BW angels if the player cares to try to do so.
Now, as to why I'm quitting standard, keep in mind that I don't give two flying craps about what comes out of the Pro Tour and neither should you. The Pro Tour is a rather unique tournament, with a fairly incestuous meta game, and the ability to elevate the appearance of decks doing much better than you would think due to being a split format. People put a hell of a lot of stock into the Top 8 of the Pro Tour, but that top 8 is half decided by Draft. Meaning that you could have a mediocre Standard showing, a Stellar Draft showing, and top 8. Whereas a person who had a stellar Standard showing and a weak draft showing will not be in the Top 8. Further, things that work in the Pro Tour often don't work outside of it for various reasons. I have never much bothered with the Pro Tour (Aside from noticing that specific cards end up being really good, such as with Rabblemaster). I have tested this format quite extensively all things considered, and frankly I'm just exhausted with it. When every bloody deck I try to build has to so significantly warp itself around not getting destroy by CoCo (Let alone trying to beat it, which is a completely different animal than trying not to lose to it), I just don't have the desire to play it anymore. I was already tired of the format to begin with, but the addition of Spell Queller and its format warping nature is just the final nail on this craptacular format.
I also find Jim Davis's recent article to be interesting on the subject, particularly the first half:
Now, there are cool decks out there. Those decks run into the Bant CoCo wall, however, and I have yet to see anything that is particularly satisfying to play against the deck at all.
I have a good record against Bant Company with my semi-cheap UR prowess deck. While he durdles around, I just send him my Stormchaser Mage and Elusive Spellfist pumped by my uncounterable Exquisite Firecraft to his face. I typically finish the job with Fevered Visions and Thunderbreak Regent.
BC is strong but not caw-blade strong, there's no need for bannings, answers are out there.
Another thing that drives Bant CoCo insane is that even if you get to the point where you can finally languish or outburst or exile all creatures with the white spell, a good coco player will have held back over flooding the board and have a lot of cards in hand using the Duskwatch recruiter ability, tireless tracker clue, or just doing another coco at end of turn or all of the above.
I have a good record against Bant Company with my semi-cheap UR prowess deck. While he durdles around, I just send him my Stormchaser Mage and Elusive Spellfist pumped by my uncounterable Exquisite Firecraft to his face. I typically finish the job with Fevered Visions and Thunderbreak Regent.
BC is strong but not caw-blade strong, there's no need for bannings, answers are out there.
I'm not going to lie, I tried UR prowess, it's not as great as it used to be, so I have no idea how you even managed to fair against coco decks, I also playtested it online and every coco match up, my stormchasers would be quelled or maged, some would use selfless spirit to avoid the spot removal I had, or again quell them, and every time I go all in, a coco brings out a reflector mage to bounce, or a queller to chump, or builds a board and hits in hard on the back swing. And my burn is just 'countered' by Dromoka's Command as well, so I have no idea how you managed to burn your opponent with Exquisite Firecraft when they can still 'counter' it.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
Bant Company is definitely beatable, and Wizards traditionally releases cards to combat overpowering cards already in the format. If they ban they do it early rather than let the card(s) get played.
None of the cards you mentioned are objectively too powerful on their own.
Spending all of this time writing about how you're quitting and what we should think about magic is a waste of everyones time.
CoCo is about to rotate out of Standard.
Edit:
The way I play magic is to play against the meta, to design a deck that beats the most popular decks.
I always do it in Red.
You don't like your opponents strategy?
Is it too overbearing?
Do they just take over the game?
Literally beat them before they get started.
I often see Bant Company and feel prepared for it.
Frankly, if its an instant, run a counterspell, literally a single card that counters the spell.
The rest of the creatures die to removal, build that.
Red/Blue.
gg
You keep saying that, and you never provide a decklist, match ups, ANYTHING, or even the fact that red has been its weakest in ages, like it makes no sense.
Not only that, sure, run a counterspell, its only at the end of your turn, so surely they wont have some way to play another one during their turn when you already wasted/burned your counterspell during your turn or no longer have the mana for it, such genius, much outplay. Like seriously, not only that, there are nearly no good counterspells, and they have turn two plays which go under most counters in this game that become a massive threat, like Sylvan Advocate and generate card advantage, like Duskwatch Recruiter. Not only that, they don't need to keep flooding the board, they can hold back when they feel they have a decent amount of push, and wait for you to pop your removal or wipes, and then they'll just refill the board with another CoCo, or counter it with spell queller. If CoCo was sorcery speed I'd honestly give your argument some credit but the fact that it's instant invalidates it, you should know by now that control always has problems with instant speed match ups, cause it always forces you to be on the defensive, and making one mistake can break the game for you. Literally most of the entire deck of CoCo can be played at instant speed, from CoCo, duskwatch ability, manlands, dromoka's command, spell queller, bounding krasis, clue tokens generated by tireless tracker, and not only that, they also inherently gain card advantage through a lot of their spells, clues, duskwatch, coco hitting 2 targets, dromokas in some cases, all of which control hates. And lastly, how the hell are you clearing board playing UR? Radiant Flames? Burn spells in general? How are you not being blown out by D-command, spell queller, or hitting the tireless trackers/sylvan advocates with toughness higher than 4 late in the game? Meanwhile all of us have had experience against Bant CoCo, and I am by far a bad player, I constantly get 4-0s at prereleases, top 8 90% of the time at all of my lgs, even top 8'd a state championship for modern, and play online with several different brews, most with success until I meet the CoCo match up(and GW tokens, but thats not as hard and its like 50/50 most times, also dependent on my build), where I hope they land flood or are just bad players, otherwise they always have the upperhand, and games end with them having a ton of cards in hand and several on board, while my removal is sitting in exile.
Also stop saying it as though its only a few of us having this mentality. A lot of us have been saying this for a while, have you noticed how little coverage on standard decks SCG has done before the release of EMN? Literally almost none, case its always the same decks dominating, so why cover basically the same decklist over and over. Not to mention quite a lot of us have LGS that dont even have the attendance to launch an FNM recently because of the skewed power of this standard towards GW/x, literally only 2 of my LCS out of 5 launch it and ones cause its a very casual crowd, and the other cause they run modern for FNM.
And you say beat them before they get started? You do realize they start on turn 2, right? Like, were not modern comboing off with grishoalbrand or storm, we don't have that capability. Like stop pulling stuff out of christmasland unless you actually have proven it yourself, UR is so vague it can be anything, UR Prowess, UR control, UR tempo, UR aggro, UR eldrazi, stop saying things to make yourself feel superior for allegedly not having a qualm with a deck that everyone else has and even shows in the top 8s of almost every standard tournament. Like sheesh. I'd be happy with either a CoCo ban or dromoka's command ban, and I don't feel like anyone would really care for it. You may say its going to rotate soon, but at the same time thats not a valid argument cause making a ban for a card about to rotate out wont really hurt anybody either and will let other colors have a better fighting chance. I'd rather have 2 months of a standard where I don't feel forced to play GW/x then one with it just because "rotations are faster now, no need to try to fix our imbalanced format that actually sells our cards in the first place DER!"-wotc 2016
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
I'll start by saying this: Standard is in a better place right now than it was before EMN. The most oppressive card in EMN is Spell Queller, and there are ways to beat it. There are also now a variety of decks that, while not tier 1, at least have a fighting chance against the tier 1 decks.
However, that's just going from the Open last weekend, and the Bant lists from last weekend weren't tuned. Sure, this format could turn out fine, but it could also turn out worse than CawBlade. There's also the worry that UW Spirits ends up being the boogeyman, and that deck not only crushes Bant Company but is also losing almost nothing to rotation.
Wizards: "we'll never reprint man o war in standard because it was too good." Prints reflector Mage.....
Source?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I've noticed the trend of a lot of people complaining about the dominance of GW in Standard. However, it's a breath of fresh air for me to finally see G topping Standard instead of always seeing decks with U and B dominating. U and/or B has always been dominating Standard since the beginning of Standard.
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My problem with this Standard is how repetitive the games feel. The days when burn, combo, and control were viable strategies were better IMO because although those decks sucked to play against, at least aggro and midrange provided a break. Now it feels like I'm playing the same game, over and over and over again. It's like Wizards is force feeding us cake -- it's good at first, but eventually you start vomiting your guts out.
I've noticed the trend of a lot of people complaining about the dominance of GW in Standard. However, it's a breath of fresh air for me to finally see G topping Standard instead of always seeing decks with U and B dominating. U and/or B has always been dominating Standard since the beginning of Standard.
r
That is simply untrue. Green has been on of the most consistently prominent colors in standard, and you have to go all the way back to Combo Winter to reach a period where green was just plain bad. At various times since then green has gone from being a good color to being the single best color to be in, with only extremely rare periods when it was actively bad. Even in the most recent "bad" period of RtR-Theros, it put up very good numbers and could compete, even in a meta game that was almost built around trying to wreck its day by having mainboard hate.
Standard always has been the format where Green shines. To be frank, I have zero idea where people are getting this idea that it's been forever since green was good. Green has always been good in standard. Blue/red? Eh, it waxes and wanes significantly. SOmetimes they are good, other times they are not. White? Usually either the single best color you can play or the single worst color in the format. Black is usually fairly solid. Green, however, has always been a potent color in standard, and you have to go back to long before the Modern era to find a point where it actually bad.
I'm getting mighty tired of seeing this completely false rhetoric being thrown around to try and discredit people. The idea that it's finally time for green to have its come-uppance is just plain absurdity, and lacks any notion of the historicity of Standard to make this statement.
But, because people like to ignore these things:
1. Urza-Masques standard: 13 Land Stompy was a valid deck at the time, and put up decent numbers.
2. Masques-Invasion standard: Fires of Yavimaya was a base-green deck.
3. Invasion-Odyssey: U/G Madness which was as much green as it was blue. It along with Psychatog were the best decks of this format.
4. Odyssey-Onslaught: Both Elves and Astral Slide were both Tier 1 decks of this time. Slide was often Mono-White, but if it went to a second color, it was often green due to some really sick G/W Threshold creatures like Anurid.
5. Onslaught-Mirrodin: R/G Tooth & Nail gave as much a showing as any non-Affinity deck would, and Elves was one of the only decks to have a somewhat reasonable (Though still poor) Affinity MU. Most top 8s would be 6 Affinity lists and 2 Elves lists. Really, green was the only color that *could* compete at all with Affinity in this standard.
6. Mirrodin-Kamigawa: This was Green, the Format. Practically every single Tier 1 list was green, with Tooth & Nail, Mono-Green aggro, U/G control, Gifts, etc. all being green. Practically no color was doing anything of note if it wasn't paired with green.
7. Kamigawa-Rav: A truly great renaissance of standard, where you could literally pick 2-3 color and likely make a good deck out of it. Chord decks were quite the rage at this time, but frankly it's hard to say what *was* tier 1, as there were so many good things to be doing. Still, green was doing just fine here.
8. Rav-Time Spiral: Both Chord and Dredge were things. Not amazing things, but they did see a good amount of play, with decent finishes.
9. Time Spiral-Lorwyn Era: Elves, Dark Bant, 5-color, and a few others. Green wasn't at its strongest, and Faeries ruled the format, but it *still* wasn't at its lowest.
10. Lorwyn-Alara: Noble Heirarch was a common fixture, and green decks were everywhere. There several G/W based decks, such as G/W Overrun and Doran, however Bloodbraid decks also proved potent here. This was a good time to be playing green.
11. Alara-Zendikar: Jund was *the* deck, and Ramp became a hugely common fixture once RoE came out. This was another format where green played a very prominent role.
12. Zendikar-Scars: While it'd be easy to point to Cawblade and dismiss the entire format, keep in mind that Valakut was an immensely popular deck, and was touted as a deck that could compete in a Caw-Blade meta. Infact, it was really the only other deck in the format of any relevance, and was a base-green deck.
13. Scars-Inn: Both Kessig-Titan and Pod were played, and both put up good numbers. Delver was the deck, but it wasn't the only deck. Green was doing quite well here.
14. Inn-RtR: Thragtusk. Farseek. Arbor Elf. Green was huge in this era. If you weren't playing green, you needed a *very* good reason. And frankly, I'm not sure what that reason was. Green was by far the best color in the format.
15. RtR-THS: While there are tons of Mono-Black Memes about the format, the interesting thing is that Green decks were doing quite well in the format, even though Mono-black was a supposed rough match up for them, and Mono-Blue devotion played main deck hate for green. And yet, green soldiered on, and was a common fixture in most top 8s of any even, particularly placing fairly well at the Grand Prixs. There was only really 1 deck (And a few really fringe decks), but that was the format. Still, green was doing mostly fine.
16. THS-Khans: Green was huge in this format. From Green devotion, Abzan, Sidisi Whip, and G/W megamorph. Green was always being played in the top decks of this format for the entirety of the format.
17. Khans-BFZ: Green had its showing both in Bant CoCo predecessors as well as Rally decks; various flavors of Abzan were also present in the format, such as Abzan Blue and Abzan Aggro. Early Ramp lists were also running around. Post-Oath, we saw the meteoric rise of Bant CoCo and Rally (Due to Reflector Mage and Advocate), and Ramp gained some ground (Due to Kozi's Return and Worldbreaker).
So there you go. 17 years of Magic, and green has practically always been in (Or very near) Tier 1 status. This concept that Green has ever been bad in standard is just nonsense. Even at its worst it is still usually the second or third best color in the format.
Also, keep in mind that green was at various times quite strong before this as well. Ernham Djinn was a powerhouse in the early days. Miracle Gro was a stupidly potent deck. To really get to a point where green is actively a bad choice, you have to go extremely far back. ALmost to beginning of the game, and that is just not a useful era to use for any form of justification.
So, there's some history of Green in standard. I really hope to never see this nonsense about how it was ever bad again.
My problem with this Standard is how repetitive the games feel. The days when burn, combo, and control were viable strategies were better IMO because although those decks sucked to play against, at least aggro and midrange provided a break. Now it feels like I'm playing the same game, over and over and over again. It's like Wizards is force feeding us cake -- it's good at first, but eventually you start vomiting your guts out.
If that's the case, your problem would be the same even if purple, pink, or yellow decks were dominating Standard. The problem with Standard (and it's been quite the problem for I'd say close to 10 years now) is netdecking. You're playing the same games because people are playing the same decks. But that's a whole other can of worms I'm not gonna open. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing Standard altogether after 2006.
I've noticed the trend of a lot of people complaining about the dominance of GW in Standard. However, it's a breath of fresh air for me to finally see G topping Standard instead of always seeing decks with U and B dominating. U and/or B has always been dominating Standard since the beginning of Standard.
That is simply untrue. Green has been on of the most consistently prominent colors in standard, and you have to go all the way back to Combo Winter to reach a period where green was just plain bad. At various times since then green has gone from being a good color to being the single best color to be in, with only extremely rare periods when it was actively bad. Even in the most recent "bad" period of RtR-Theros, it put up very good numbers and could compete, even in a meta game that was almost built around trying to wreck its day by having mainboard hate.
Standard always has been the format where Green shines. To be frank, I have zero idea where people are getting this idea that it's been forever since green was good. Green has always been good in standard. Blue/red? Eh, it waxes and wanes significantly. SOmetimes they are good, other times they are not. White? Usually either the single best color you can play or the single worst color in the format. Black is usually fairly solid. Green, however, has always been a potent color in standard, and you have to go back to long before the Modern era to find a point where it actually bad.
I'm getting mighty tired of seeing this completely false rhetoric being thrown around to try and discredit people. The idea that it's finally time for green to have its come-uppance is just plain absurdity, and lacks any notion of the historicity of Standard to make this statement.
But, because people like to ignore these things:
1. Urza-Masques standard: 13 Land Stompy was a valid deck at the time, and put up decent numbers.
2. Masques-Invasion standard: Fires of Yavimaya was a base-green deck.
3. Invasion-Odyssey: U/G Madness which was as much green as it was blue. It along with Psychatog were the best decks of this format.
4. Odyssey-Onslaught: Both Elves and Astral Slide were both Tier 1 decks of this time. Slide was often Mono-White, but if it went to a second color, it was often green due to some really sick G/W Threshold creatures like Anurid.
5. Onslaught-Mirrodin: R/G Tooth & Nail gave as much a showing as any non-Affinity deck would, and Elves was one of the only decks to have a somewhat reasonable (Though still poor) Affinity MU. Most top 8s would be 6 Affinity lists and 2 Elves lists. Really, green was the only color that *could* compete at all with Affinity in this standard.
6. Mirrodin-Kamigawa: This was Green, the Format. Practically every single Tier 1 list was green, with Tooth & Nail, Mono-Green aggro, U/G control, Gifts, etc. all being green. Practically no color was doing anything of note if it wasn't paired with green.
7. Kamigawa-Rav: A truly great renaissance of standard, where you could literally pick 2-3 color and likely make a good deck out of it. Chord decks were quite the rage at this time, but frankly it's hard to say what *was* tier 1, as there were so many good things to be doing. Still, green was doing just fine here.
8. Rav-Time Spiral: Both Chord and Dredge were things. Not amazing things, but they did see a good amount of play, with decent finishes.
9. Time Spiral-Lorwyn Era: Elves, Dark Bant, 5-color, and a few others. Green wasn't at its strongest, and Faeries ruled the format, but it *still* wasn't at its lowest.
10. Lorwyn-Alara: Noble Heirarch was a common fixture, and green decks were everywhere. There several G/W based decks, such as G/W Overrun and Doran, however Bloodbraid decks also proved potent here. This was a good time to be playing green.
11. Alara-Zendikar: Jund was *the* deck, and Ramp became a hugely common fixture once RoE came out. This was another format where green played a very prominent role.
12. Zendikar-Scars: While it'd be easy to point to Cawblade and dismiss the entire format, keep in mind that Valakut was an immensely popular deck, and was touted as a deck that could compete in a Caw-Blade meta. Infact, it was really the only other deck in the format of any relevance, and was a base-green deck.
13. Scars-Inn: Both Kessig-Titan and Pod were played, and both put up good numbers. Delver was the deck, but it wasn't the only deck. Green was doing quite well here.
14. Inn-RtR: Thragtusk. Farseek. Arbor Elf. Green was huge in this era. If you weren't playing green, you needed a *very* good reason. And frankly, I'm not sure what that reason was. Green was by far the best color in the format.
15. RtR-THS: While there are tons of Mono-Black Memes about the format, the interesting thing is that Green decks were doing quite well in the format, even though Mono-black was a supposed rough match up for them, and Mono-Blue devotion played main deck hate for green. And yet, green soldiered on, and was a common fixture in most top 8s of any even, particularly placing fairly well at the Grand Prixs. There was only really 1 deck (And a few really fringe decks), but that was the format. Still, green was doing mostly fine.
16. THS-Khans: Green was huge in this format. From Green devotion, Abzan, Sidisi Whip, and G/W megamorph. Green was always being played in the top decks of this format for the entirety of the format.
17. Khans-BFZ: Green had its showing both in Bant CoCo predecessors as well as Rally decks; various flavors of Abzan were also present in the format, such as Abzan Blue and Abzan Aggro. Early Ramp lists were also running around. Post-Oath, we saw the meteoric rise of Bant CoCo and Rally (Due to Reflector Mage and Advocate), and Ramp gained some ground (Due to Kozi's Return and Worldbreaker).
So there you go. 17 years of Magic, and green has practically always been in (Or very near) Tier 1 status. This concept that Green has ever been bad in standard is just nonsense. Even at its worst it is still usually the second or third best color in the format.
Also, keep in mind that green was at various times quite strong before this as well. Ernham Djinn was a powerhouse in the early days. Miracle Gro was a stupidly potent deck. To really get to a point where green is actively a bad choice, you have to go extremely far back. ALmost to beginning of the game, and that is just not a useful era to use for any form of justification.
So, there's some history of Green in standard. I really hope to never see this nonsense about how it was ever bad again.
Before I comment on your brief history of Standard, I need to get out of the way that nowhere in my comment did I bash G in Standard (or at all) nor did I say it was bad or that it wasn't used in competitive Standard. I said I was tired of seeing the dominance of U and B since Standard has existed (which is true).
While I appreciate your brief history on Standard, in some cases G was included in some top tier decks in various points during the format but it was nowhere near at the level of U and/or B until now (this was originally typed as a large paragraph so I broke it down as a list to make it easier to follow instead of having to read a massive block of text).
No one can deny that G had an amazing deck in Gaea's Cradle Elves during Standard#4 (6th Edition, Tempest Block, Urza's Block) but U was still in the top as well with Tolarian Academy decks and so was B with Yawgmoth's Will and Yawgmoth's Bargain. WU also had the very broken Replenish/Opalescence deck. The best chance monoG ever had of being top tier was during this block. Then again, that point is Standard was so ridiculous that Mercadian Masques has to "balance out the format".
Even then, during this time, we had two top tier decks in Standard#5 (6th Edition, Urza's Block, Masques Block) which were Pandeburst and Turn2 Spiritmonger, the latter causing Dark Ritual to never be printed again in Standard. However, again, the dominance of U and/or B was ever prevalent because these decks always lost to control (Counterspell stopped being Standard legal after 7th edition).
The next time G would shine in top tier was during Standard#9 (8th Edition, Odyssey Block, Onslaught Block) with the threshold deck you metioned. However, the top decks at the time didn't run green but had U and/or B in them (UBPsychatog/Upheaval being the oppressive deck of the format).
G wouldn't see top tier status again until the Alara Block thanks to Jund (which still included B) however since it was also when Lorwyn/Shadowmoor was also in standard, UB Faeries was the oppressive deck at the time. Again, UB.
Then, when the Zendikar block was Standard legal along with Alara Block, DrawGo practically destroyed the format and then the next Standard when it evolved into CawBlade almost everyone stopped playing Magic due to it. Again, the prevalence of U. So during the two Standards were Jund could've been the top deck, it wasn't.
During Standard#22 (M13, Innistrad Block, Return to Ravnica Block), in my opinion one of the best Standards since the creation of the format (and I've been playing on/off since Fallen Empires) because all the colors were in viable monocolored, 2-colored, or tri-colored decks. This Standard had Jund, Bant, and Esper topping most tournaments. So G was used in Jund and Bant. However, B and U is also used - and in most of the decks.
The following Standard after that, G was slightly present but the format was dominated by MonoU Devotion and MonoB Devotion. Again, U and/or B.
After that, with the inclusion of the Tarkir Block, where 4-colored goodstuff decks were prevalent, G was used for mana fixing but pretty much nothing more than that because a lot of broken spells and creatures included G but were not entirely G.
Currently, U is not a viable color because control is just horrible compared to the speed of creature-based decks. That being said, WU Spirits is shaping up to be a great deck. Again, the use of U is rising in top tier decks. It's being seen that the best decks in the format don't include U or B whatsoever.
That was my point to begin with: it's a relief to finally see U and B not dominate Standard. So I'm glad to see MonoW decks again and GW decks. WB Control is a great deck that's topping but that's because it aims to be the bane of GW and monoW. So the B is present only as opposing the dominance of G in the format - finally! However, the day MonoR dominates Standard... that'll be the day!
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Green has been the best (or second best, white is likely best now) color in standard since RTR rotated. I'm god damn sick of it getting the best card advantage engines.
Green has been the best (or second best, white is likely best now) color in standard since RTR rotated. I'm god damn sick of it getting the best card advantage engines.
Whereas what? U having all the best card advantages as well? Someone's gotta have it, and I'm tired of it always being U. It's always been U until recently.
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Magic has existed for almost 23 years and G is having card advantage in top tier levels for about 2 years whereas Ualways had it, making it one of the most abusive and degenerate colors. So yeah, I would consider that recent. I'm all up for any of the other 3 colors (RGW) to finally be topping since it finally breaks free from UB oppression.
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C Long Live Eldrazi C
Horribly Awry is just a generally terrible card; there's a reason that Essence Scatter doesn't see play, even in creature-dense metas. It has too high of a fail cost to be worthwhile, and Horribly Awry is pretty much a worse Essence Scatter.
Fiery Impulse is equally a plain bad card that only sees (marginal) play due to a lack of good options at all. The difference between 2 and 3 damage is a huge one in this format, and Impulse difficult to have Mastery on early enough. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that much of the time you are simply better off running Draconic Roar, even if you have no synergy with dragons at all. I have found the difference between 2 and 3 damage to be significantly more important than the difference between 1 and 2 mana.
Now, a 2 mana spell that deals damage only to creatures is also not very good at all.
Suggesting what are effectively bad cards to try and beat the absurdity that is Bant CoCo and GW in general is... an interesting proposition. Particularly given that Impulse doesn't particularly line up well against the decks anyway, and Horribly Awry can very quickly go Horribly Awry with nothing more than a Sylvan Advocate on board.
I'm with you on Impulse. I think it's a fine piece of red removal. It's not particularly good, but it does a reasonable job.
Horribly Awry though is a very poor card.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Perhaps I exaggerrated on Impulse a bit, but I still do not feel it is good at all. It's mediocre removal that is played out of necessity. Spell mastery is not particularly easy to get online particularly early, and it's floor is quite bad, with a ceiling that is only just playable.
You will have to forgive me, however, for not being particularly interested in trying to answer excellent, above the curve creatures with somewhat mediocre removal that often does not line up very well with the threat they present (And even when it does, cards like Command, Spell Queller, Avacyn, and CoCo all leave a bad taste in your mouth when you try to use it).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Wizards: "we'll never reprint man o war in standard because it was too good." Prints reflector Mage.....
They didn't ban Thragtusk for example, and it was everywhere.
I'm surprised people would entertain this idea, as a gamer I don't rally against a challenge I try to overcome it.
So if you don't like reflector mage, maybe run countermagic, or hand disruption, or maybe just control in general.
If you believe YOU need a ban to have fun, maybe you should take a break.
Duskwatch Recruiter, Sylvan Advocate, and Lambolt Pacifist all punish plans to attack CoCo through counterspells. Dromoka's Command, Avacyn, and CoCo all punish a player trying to attack CoCo through removal. Spell Queller now allows the deck to punish both of these in one card. Not only that, but sweepers of any sort already are pretty bad against the deck due to CoCo and Avacyn. Running a mix of Removal/Countermagic isn't particularly useful as it leads to having the wrong half of the equation at the wrong time.
Which brings us to creature decks. This would be all fine and dandy, but both Red and Black's creatures are generally worse on curve than Green and Whites, and Blue's creatures are pretty narrow. If you go an aggro plan, you get destroyed by Green and White's better creature base. If you go Midrange, you get destroyed by Reflector Mage and Spell Queller, both of which effectively time walk you.
So you go Combo, right? There are some good Combo enchantments right now. Except, of course, that Bant and other G/W/x decks running maindeck enchantment removal that is incidentally hated out.
Suggesting that the way to beat a deck is through using Countermagic and Removal, when said deck was already quite resilient to Removal and Countermagic (And only gets more resilient with EMN), is pretty damn silly. There is nothing to solve here, as the questions being asked by Bant and other G/W decks do not have any reasonable answers. The simple (And only consistent) answer to CoCo is to get under it before it's engines get online. Trying to go over it with control is just not a good plan at all, and there is a reason why no deck could consistently hold a decent share of the metagame. Previously, you had Mono-White Humans and G/W tokens that could reasonably get under it. G/W tokens is still a deck, but as it gained effectively nothing to help against Bant and Bant gained Spell Queller (Which is an absurd card and will have a remarkably unhealthy effect on the format for at least the next 3 months). So CoCo has a net gain against G/W. Mono-White is till viable.
As I said before, there isn't much that can be done- the issue with the format is that Green and White were given tools that are miles ahead of Black/Red/Blue. This format's failing is entirely a developmental issue that was completely avoidable and forseeable, but not one caused by any singular card. The blue cards being run are being run only in the context of Green and White, which begs the quetion of whethere these cards are actually good enough on their own. I have my suspicions, for instance, that Spirits is not quite as good a people state or anticipate, and it seems like a generally worse CoCo deck.
I honestly predict we are enter a 2-deck format (And maybe a 3rd much worse deck). You play CoCo, the one deck that actually beats CoCo consistently (Mono-White humans), or you just accept that you are losing against over half the field.
Keep in mind this has nothing to do with me trying to net-deck; I am a deck builder first and foremost, and can usually find a deck that can attack the field on some unique axis. This format is downright miserable for this sort of deck-building; G/W decks are just so incredibly punishing and efficient that there is no actual way to reasonably attack them. People who say you just need to figure it out fail to realize some very important reasons as to why nobody has figured it out.
Equally, I have put in a *lot* of hours playtesting several different decks and several different spectrums againt the coming field. And I have learned only one thing:
This is not a format that I want to play. I would rather play Modern, a format I rather dislike a great deal for various reason, than Standard currently. The fact that I am quitting standard for the first time in five years is quite telling. For god's sake, I was a person playing Mono-Red Aggro during Thragtusk standard. I can play through formats where the decks I play are "bad". I will not play through a format where I am actively punished for trying to play something not on the G/W spectrum.
Every Midrange creature and deck gets chewed aparat by Spell Queller and Reflector Mage. Every control deck gets chewed apart by Advocates, Avacyn's, and Quellers. Every aggro deck by Advocates and Dromoka's COmmand. Every synergy deck gets chewed apart by Quellers and Commands.
This is the biggest middle-finger format I have seen in quite some time; CoCo decks and the like are absolutely amazing at telling all other decks "No, you may not" to literally everything they try to do. A likeable comparison is back when Faeries was big in Standard. This is not a commendable thing. This is an indication that the format has gone horribly wrong.
It's not so much that you have to draw them first, it's that these cards are exceedingly easy to play around *as well* as easy to punish a player for trying to play them. An intelligent CoCo player will absolutely demolish any person trying to get to Languish, Descend, or Planar Outburst. Hell, that's what the entire point of the namesake card is. If they play poorly, then sure. You can win. If they have even the remotest sense of role assessment and understanding of what they need to be doing, then no it will not work at all. It's not that there aren't "easy" answers, its that the answers that exist are remarkably easy to play and punish. Avacyn, Spell Queller, and Collected Company all make mincemeat out of the sweapers. Advocate and Pacifist destroy any form of "slow" control.
I feel that those control decks did well solely because the CoCo players were not prepared in the least for them, nor what to expect. CoCo has all the tools to easily ruin Sultai and BW angels if the player cares to try to do so.
Now, as to why I'm quitting standard, keep in mind that I don't give two flying craps about what comes out of the Pro Tour and neither should you. The Pro Tour is a rather unique tournament, with a fairly incestuous meta game, and the ability to elevate the appearance of decks doing much better than you would think due to being a split format. People put a hell of a lot of stock into the Top 8 of the Pro Tour, but that top 8 is half decided by Draft. Meaning that you could have a mediocre Standard showing, a Stellar Draft showing, and top 8. Whereas a person who had a stellar Standard showing and a weak draft showing will not be in the Top 8. Further, things that work in the Pro Tour often don't work outside of it for various reasons. I have never much bothered with the Pro Tour (Aside from noticing that specific cards end up being really good, such as with Rabblemaster). I have tested this format quite extensively all things considered, and frankly I'm just exhausted with it. When every bloody deck I try to build has to so significantly warp itself around not getting destroy by CoCo (Let alone trying to beat it, which is a completely different animal than trying not to lose to it), I just don't have the desire to play it anymore. I was already tired of the format to begin with, but the addition of Spell Queller and its format warping nature is just the final nail on this craptacular format.
I also find Jim Davis's recent article to be interesting on the subject, particularly the first half:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33368_The-Cant-Beat-Bant-Company-Brews.html
Now, there are cool decks out there. Those decks run into the Bant CoCo wall, however, and I have yet to see anything that is particularly satisfying to play against the deck at all.
BC is strong but not caw-blade strong, there's no need for bannings, answers are out there.
I'm not going to lie, I tried UR prowess, it's not as great as it used to be, so I have no idea how you even managed to fair against coco decks, I also playtested it online and every coco match up, my stormchasers would be quelled or maged, some would use selfless spirit to avoid the spot removal I had, or again quell them, and every time I go all in, a coco brings out a reflector mage to bounce, or a queller to chump, or builds a board and hits in hard on the back swing. And my burn is just 'countered' by Dromoka's Command as well, so I have no idea how you managed to burn your opponent with Exquisite Firecraft when they can still 'counter' it.
None of the cards you mentioned are objectively too powerful on their own.
Spending all of this time writing about how you're quitting and what we should think about magic is a waste of everyones time.
CoCo is about to rotate out of Standard.
Edit:
The way I play magic is to play against the meta, to design a deck that beats the most popular decks.
I always do it in Red.
You don't like your opponents strategy?
Is it too overbearing?
Do they just take over the game?
Literally beat them before they get started.
I often see Bant Company and feel prepared for it.
Frankly, if its an instant, run a counterspell, literally a single card that counters the spell.
The rest of the creatures die to removal, build that.
Red/Blue.
gg
Not only that, sure, run a counterspell, its only at the end of your turn, so surely they wont have some way to play another one during their turn when you already wasted/burned your counterspell during your turn or no longer have the mana for it, such genius, much outplay. Like seriously, not only that, there are nearly no good counterspells, and they have turn two plays which go under most counters in this game that become a massive threat, like Sylvan Advocate and generate card advantage, like Duskwatch Recruiter. Not only that, they don't need to keep flooding the board, they can hold back when they feel they have a decent amount of push, and wait for you to pop your removal or wipes, and then they'll just refill the board with another CoCo, or counter it with spell queller. If CoCo was sorcery speed I'd honestly give your argument some credit but the fact that it's instant invalidates it, you should know by now that control always has problems with instant speed match ups, cause it always forces you to be on the defensive, and making one mistake can break the game for you. Literally most of the entire deck of CoCo can be played at instant speed, from CoCo, duskwatch ability, manlands, dromoka's command, spell queller, bounding krasis, clue tokens generated by tireless tracker, and not only that, they also inherently gain card advantage through a lot of their spells, clues, duskwatch, coco hitting 2 targets, dromokas in some cases, all of which control hates. And lastly, how the hell are you clearing board playing UR? Radiant Flames? Burn spells in general? How are you not being blown out by D-command, spell queller, or hitting the tireless trackers/sylvan advocates with toughness higher than 4 late in the game? Meanwhile all of us have had experience against Bant CoCo, and I am by far a bad player, I constantly get 4-0s at prereleases, top 8 90% of the time at all of my lgs, even top 8'd a state championship for modern, and play online with several different brews, most with success until I meet the CoCo match up(and GW tokens, but thats not as hard and its like 50/50 most times, also dependent on my build), where I hope they land flood or are just bad players, otherwise they always have the upperhand, and games end with them having a ton of cards in hand and several on board, while my removal is sitting in exile.
Also stop saying it as though its only a few of us having this mentality. A lot of us have been saying this for a while, have you noticed how little coverage on standard decks SCG has done before the release of EMN? Literally almost none, case its always the same decks dominating, so why cover basically the same decklist over and over. Not to mention quite a lot of us have LGS that dont even have the attendance to launch an FNM recently because of the skewed power of this standard towards GW/x, literally only 2 of my LCS out of 5 launch it and ones cause its a very casual crowd, and the other cause they run modern for FNM.
And you say beat them before they get started? You do realize they start on turn 2, right? Like, were not modern comboing off with grishoalbrand or storm, we don't have that capability. Like stop pulling stuff out of christmasland unless you actually have proven it yourself, UR is so vague it can be anything, UR Prowess, UR control, UR tempo, UR aggro, UR eldrazi, stop saying things to make yourself feel superior for allegedly not having a qualm with a deck that everyone else has and even shows in the top 8s of almost every standard tournament. Like sheesh. I'd be happy with either a CoCo ban or dromoka's command ban, and I don't feel like anyone would really care for it. You may say its going to rotate soon, but at the same time thats not a valid argument cause making a ban for a card about to rotate out wont really hurt anybody either and will let other colors have a better fighting chance. I'd rather have 2 months of a standard where I don't feel forced to play GW/x then one with it just because "rotations are faster now, no need to try to fix our imbalanced format that actually sells our cards in the first place DER!"-wotc 2016
However, that's just going from the Open last weekend, and the Bant lists from last weekend weren't tuned. Sure, this format could turn out fine, but it could also turn out worse than CawBlade. There's also the worry that UW Spirits ends up being the boogeyman, and that deck not only crushes Bant Company but is also losing almost nothing to rotation.
- Manite
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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That is simply untrue. Green has been on of the most consistently prominent colors in standard, and you have to go all the way back to Combo Winter to reach a period where green was just plain bad. At various times since then green has gone from being a good color to being the single best color to be in, with only extremely rare periods when it was actively bad. Even in the most recent "bad" period of RtR-Theros, it put up very good numbers and could compete, even in a meta game that was almost built around trying to wreck its day by having mainboard hate.
Standard always has been the format where Green shines. To be frank, I have zero idea where people are getting this idea that it's been forever since green was good. Green has always been good in standard. Blue/red? Eh, it waxes and wanes significantly. SOmetimes they are good, other times they are not. White? Usually either the single best color you can play or the single worst color in the format. Black is usually fairly solid. Green, however, has always been a potent color in standard, and you have to go back to long before the Modern era to find a point where it actually bad.
I'm getting mighty tired of seeing this completely false rhetoric being thrown around to try and discredit people. The idea that it's finally time for green to have its come-uppance is just plain absurdity, and lacks any notion of the historicity of Standard to make this statement.
But, because people like to ignore these things:
1. Urza-Masques standard: 13 Land Stompy was a valid deck at the time, and put up decent numbers.
2. Masques-Invasion standard: Fires of Yavimaya was a base-green deck.
3. Invasion-Odyssey: U/G Madness which was as much green as it was blue. It along with Psychatog were the best decks of this format.
4. Odyssey-Onslaught: Both Elves and Astral Slide were both Tier 1 decks of this time. Slide was often Mono-White, but if it went to a second color, it was often green due to some really sick G/W Threshold creatures like Anurid.
5. Onslaught-Mirrodin: R/G Tooth & Nail gave as much a showing as any non-Affinity deck would, and Elves was one of the only decks to have a somewhat reasonable (Though still poor) Affinity MU. Most top 8s would be 6 Affinity lists and 2 Elves lists. Really, green was the only color that *could* compete at all with Affinity in this standard.
6. Mirrodin-Kamigawa: This was Green, the Format. Practically every single Tier 1 list was green, with Tooth & Nail, Mono-Green aggro, U/G control, Gifts, etc. all being green. Practically no color was doing anything of note if it wasn't paired with green.
7. Kamigawa-Rav: A truly great renaissance of standard, where you could literally pick 2-3 color and likely make a good deck out of it. Chord decks were quite the rage at this time, but frankly it's hard to say what *was* tier 1, as there were so many good things to be doing. Still, green was doing just fine here.
8. Rav-Time Spiral: Both Chord and Dredge were things. Not amazing things, but they did see a good amount of play, with decent finishes.
9. Time Spiral-Lorwyn Era: Elves, Dark Bant, 5-color, and a few others. Green wasn't at its strongest, and Faeries ruled the format, but it *still* wasn't at its lowest.
10. Lorwyn-Alara: Noble Heirarch was a common fixture, and green decks were everywhere. There several G/W based decks, such as G/W Overrun and Doran, however Bloodbraid decks also proved potent here. This was a good time to be playing green.
11. Alara-Zendikar: Jund was *the* deck, and Ramp became a hugely common fixture once RoE came out. This was another format where green played a very prominent role.
12. Zendikar-Scars: While it'd be easy to point to Cawblade and dismiss the entire format, keep in mind that Valakut was an immensely popular deck, and was touted as a deck that could compete in a Caw-Blade meta. Infact, it was really the only other deck in the format of any relevance, and was a base-green deck.
13. Scars-Inn: Both Kessig-Titan and Pod were played, and both put up good numbers. Delver was the deck, but it wasn't the only deck. Green was doing quite well here.
14. Inn-RtR: Thragtusk. Farseek. Arbor Elf. Green was huge in this era. If you weren't playing green, you needed a *very* good reason. And frankly, I'm not sure what that reason was. Green was by far the best color in the format.
15. RtR-THS: While there are tons of Mono-Black Memes about the format, the interesting thing is that Green decks were doing quite well in the format, even though Mono-black was a supposed rough match up for them, and Mono-Blue devotion played main deck hate for green. And yet, green soldiered on, and was a common fixture in most top 8s of any even, particularly placing fairly well at the Grand Prixs. There was only really 1 deck (And a few really fringe decks), but that was the format. Still, green was doing mostly fine.
16. THS-Khans: Green was huge in this format. From Green devotion, Abzan, Sidisi Whip, and G/W megamorph. Green was always being played in the top decks of this format for the entirety of the format.
17. Khans-BFZ: Green had its showing both in Bant CoCo predecessors as well as Rally decks; various flavors of Abzan were also present in the format, such as Abzan Blue and Abzan Aggro. Early Ramp lists were also running around. Post-Oath, we saw the meteoric rise of Bant CoCo and Rally (Due to Reflector Mage and Advocate), and Ramp gained some ground (Due to Kozi's Return and Worldbreaker).
So there you go. 17 years of Magic, and green has practically always been in (Or very near) Tier 1 status. This concept that Green has ever been bad in standard is just nonsense. Even at its worst it is still usually the second or third best color in the format.
Also, keep in mind that green was at various times quite strong before this as well. Ernham Djinn was a powerhouse in the early days. Miracle Gro was a stupidly potent deck. To really get to a point where green is actively a bad choice, you have to go extremely far back. ALmost to beginning of the game, and that is just not a useful era to use for any form of justification.
So, there's some history of Green in standard. I really hope to never see this nonsense about how it was ever bad again.
If that's the case, your problem would be the same even if purple, pink, or yellow decks were dominating Standard. The problem with Standard (and it's been quite the problem for I'd say close to 10 years now) is netdecking. You're playing the same games because people are playing the same decks. But that's a whole other can of worms I'm not gonna open. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing Standard altogether after 2006.
Before I comment on your brief history of Standard, I need to get out of the way that nowhere in my comment did I bash G in Standard (or at all) nor did I say it was bad or that it wasn't used in competitive Standard. I said I was tired of seeing the dominance of U and B since Standard has existed (which is true).
While I appreciate your brief history on Standard, in some cases G was included in some top tier decks in various points during the format but it was nowhere near at the level of U and/or B until now (this was originally typed as a large paragraph so I broke it down as a list to make it easier to follow instead of having to read a massive block of text).
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Whereas what? U having all the best card advantages as well? Someone's gotta have it, and I'm tired of it always being U. It's always been U until recently.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!