It seems like most(not all) were glad to see the 4 color decks rotate. The color pie meant pretty much nothing and every deck was just 3-4 color good stuff. There may have been a loose theme(rally having creatures with good ETB effects etc) but it just all felt soul-less. Like you just went thru each mana curve slot and picked the best card in standard at that slot.
I post this because I just got done playing on MTGO and for the first time since rotation, am seeing much more 4 color decks, and they seem to be hitting their mana just fine.
I really hope wizards has another set soon that really rewards mono and dual color decks, like Ravnica did with the guilds and Theros did with devotion.
Deck colors meant something. A black creature in a black deck felt like a black creature in a black deck, not some random guy in a 4 color deck. This is not to say 4 color decks should be impossible, but it seems, even with fetches gone, the mana is still just too good. Please note these are my opinions.
And an offshoot question. Should wizard have done better making 2 and especially 3 plus devotion creatures better? Since they are non splashable, shouldn't cards with more colored mana symbols in their cost be better than the lesser mana symbol equivalent?
I want to hear your thoughts even if they disagree with mine.
I posted this on spikes redit to get there POV but wanted yours as well, which included non spikes like me who while they want to win, deck creation and flavor is also important.
On one hand I agree with your sentiment, that making any-colored mana too easily available dilutes color identity and balance. On the other hand it is currently only certain decks that can achieve this in standard, and those decks are using painlands and Crytolith and pigeonholes what they can do within a certain frame. 4c Goodstuff decks were still stronger pre-rotation and for the brief time that the painlands hang around (until next rotation) I think we are in an OK place.
To be fair, it puts standard in a place where the meta is 4c Rites vs. Control vs. X deck, and I do think that after so long a period of deck diversity, people are going to be uncomfortable dealing with a Rock, Paper Scissors meta.
While 4c decks aren't near as easy or prevalent now, they're still very much possible with the painlands, that's excluding the battle lands and shadow lands which I don't really think are that good at all.
4c decks don't have a lot of room to be stable in this format. While they may run strong games when they go off, there will always be some difficulty game to game, as you run a high risk of drawing dead both on lands and spells.
That said, I think 4c decks are... fine? As long as it isn't, like you said, just "goodstuff" decks. Good design isn't design that restricts color play, but design that allows for synergies and clear themes/wincons. If Wizards can make Vampire Spirits work in a BRWU deck, that's fine! I like seeing card interaction rather than just really strong cards one after another.
It's hard to balance though. If you make the new sets too synergy reliant, it'll look like an overall decrease in power. If you make the set run too many singularly powerful cards, you run the risk of goodstuff decks.
This all being said, the current standard has very clear themes among decks right now: Tokens, Humans, Aristocrats... B/G control less so, but still outclassed often by some more specialized decks. While there are certainly some cards that are present in the meta, I don't think anything is particularly overcentralizing.
What you witnessed was likely an anomaly as far as a 4c deck working well in the format. The current mana base simply doesn't allow for consistency.
It really depends if when you say 4 colored decks you count colorless as a "color". The pain lands are the biggest at fault right now because they are essentially untapped tri-lands as long as Eldrazi are around.
It's only the combination of Eldrazi + painlands that are causing as issue.
With wedges (I think), you can put 2 diff pain lands in and that gives you 4 colors already.
BGC+GUC = sultai-drazi
RUC+RWC = jeskai-drazi
So on.
The mana is really stable in any of these decks if you just pay attention to it, and don't shove in dumb cards.
I've ran a 4 colored deck before. I did a WBRG goblin deck that did fair.
I wouldn't run a 4 color deck IMHO because it's just too complicated. I could see a 4 color warrior deck, but in standard and modern only. My goblin deck is a legacy type deck.
Another disadvantage is that I don't think there is a 4 colored commander for a commander deck (PLENTY of 5 colored ones though). So it's just highly unlikely to even try to make one that would work well to anyone's standards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"All existence will be wiped away from your memory. You will die, and no one will mourn."
Remember that Pain Lands rotate out with Origins, so unless we get replacements in Kaladesh I think four colour will be hurting soon. All other duals come into play tapped (some have a condition to avoid it which is harder to meet with 4 colours)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
Remember that Pain Lands rotate out with Origins, so unless we get replacements in Kaladesh I think four colour will be hurting soon. All other duals come into play tapped (some have a condition to avoid it which is harder to meet with 4 colours)
I'm hoping that with the rotation of pain lands, decks that wanna run colourless spells will have to run basic wastes or lands that just tap for colourless and do something else. People will probably find a way to run decks that are XY+ colourless still but hopefully it'll be harder
I'm hoping that with the rotation of pain lands, decks that wanna run colourless spells will have to run basic wastes or lands that just tap for colourless and do something else. People will probably find a way to run decks that are XY+ colourless still but hopefully it'll be harder
I'm hoping this too - it'll be harder to splash into C spells just by running a pain land that gives you your colours as well. Unknown Shores might be the next best alternative - and it's hardly great. Crumbling Vestige might work too, in some ways. Either that or we'll see Warped Landscape replacing Evolving Wilds
I'm hoping that with the rotation of pain lands, decks that wanna run colourless spells will have to run basic wastes or lands that just tap for colourless and do something else. People will probably find a way to run decks that are XY+ colourless still but hopefully it'll be harder
I'm hoping this too - it'll be harder to splash into C spells just by running a pain land that gives you your colours as well. Unknown Shores might be the next best alternative - and it's hardly great. Crumbling Vestige might work too, in some ways. Either that or we'll see Warped Landscape replacing Evolving Wilds
I can see warped landscape getting some play when evolving wilds rotates, especially by decks that wanna run colourless spells. I think it would be sweet to see mono colourless or Colourless decks splashing a colour or the other way around.
[quote from="GW2GuruUser7586 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/694872-4-color-decks?comment=13"]I can see warped landscape getting some play when evolving wilds rotates, especially by decks that wanna run colourless spells. I think it would be sweet to see mono colourless or Colourless decks splashing a colour or the other way around.
I don't expect Evolving Wilds to ever rotate, unless it is replaced with Terramorphic Expanse. Cards that use C will probably make the switch to Warped Landscape, though. Either that or they'll continue to run Evolving Wilds with Wastes (I think that's more likely)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I post this because I just got done playing on MTGO and for the first time since rotation, am seeing much more 4 color decks, and they seem to be hitting their mana just fine.
I really hope wizards has another set soon that really rewards mono and dual color decks, like Ravnica did with the guilds and Theros did with devotion.
Deck colors meant something. A black creature in a black deck felt like a black creature in a black deck, not some random guy in a 4 color deck. This is not to say 4 color decks should be impossible, but it seems, even with fetches gone, the mana is still just too good. Please note these are my opinions.
And an offshoot question. Should wizard have done better making 2 and especially 3 plus devotion creatures better? Since they are non splashable, shouldn't cards with more colored mana symbols in their cost be better than the lesser mana symbol equivalent?
I want to hear your thoughts even if they disagree with mine.
I posted this on spikes redit to get there POV but wanted yours as well, which included non spikes like me who while they want to win, deck creation and flavor is also important.
To be fair, it puts standard in a place where the meta is 4c Rites vs. Control vs. X deck, and I do think that after so long a period of deck diversity, people are going to be uncomfortable dealing with a Rock, Paper Scissors meta.
I'm fine with 3 colour decks but I found the 4 colour good stuff decks of the previous format were just boring so I'm glad its mostly 2-3 colour decks
That said, I think 4c decks are... fine? As long as it isn't, like you said, just "goodstuff" decks. Good design isn't design that restricts color play, but design that allows for synergies and clear themes/wincons. If Wizards can make Vampire Spirits work in a BRWU deck, that's fine! I like seeing card interaction rather than just really strong cards one after another.
It's hard to balance though. If you make the new sets too synergy reliant, it'll look like an overall decrease in power. If you make the set run too many singularly powerful cards, you run the risk of goodstuff decks.
This all being said, the current standard has very clear themes among decks right now: Tokens, Humans, Aristocrats... B/G control less so, but still outclassed often by some more specialized decks. While there are certainly some cards that are present in the meta, I don't think anything is particularly overcentralizing.
What you witnessed was likely an anomaly as far as a 4c deck working well in the format. The current mana base simply doesn't allow for consistency.
It's only the combination of Eldrazi + painlands that are causing as issue.
With wedges (I think), you can put 2 diff pain lands in and that gives you 4 colors already.
BGC+GUC = sultai-drazi
RUC+RWC = jeskai-drazi
So on.
The mana is really stable in any of these decks if you just pay attention to it, and don't shove in dumb cards.
I wouldn't run a 4 color deck IMHO because it's just too complicated. I could see a 4 color warrior deck, but in standard and modern only. My goblin deck is a legacy type deck.
Another disadvantage is that I don't think there is a 4 colored commander for a commander deck (PLENTY of 5 colored ones though). So it's just highly unlikely to even try to make one that would work well to anyone's standards.
-Memnarch
I'm hoping that with the rotation of pain lands, decks that wanna run colourless spells will have to run basic wastes or lands that just tap for colourless and do something else. People will probably find a way to run decks that are XY+ colourless still but hopefully it'll be harder
I'm hoping this too - it'll be harder to splash into C spells just by running a pain land that gives you your colours as well. Unknown Shores might be the next best alternative - and it's hardly great. Crumbling Vestige might work too, in some ways. Either that or we'll see Warped Landscape replacing Evolving Wilds
I can see warped landscape getting some play when evolving wilds rotates, especially by decks that wanna run colourless spells. I think it would be sweet to see mono colourless or Colourless decks splashing a colour or the other way around.
I don't expect Evolving Wilds to ever rotate, unless it is replaced with Terramorphic Expanse. Cards that use C will probably make the switch to Warped Landscape, though. Either that or they'll continue to run Evolving Wilds with Wastes (I think that's more likely)