Reflector Mage is essentially Siege Rhino - efficienct, swingy, annoying to play against. It's likely the best creature in Standard because how important it is to its various decks.
That being said, it's two colors, isn't an auto include in all blue or white decks, and doesn't warp the format around it.
Tell me why Infinite Obliteration isn't a card being played in this meta right now? The same deck running it would probably run Languish both being direct answers to the major problems the overbearing decks are associated with.
Tell me why Infinite Obliteration isn't a card being played in this meta right now? The same deck running it would probably run Languish both being direct answers to the major problems the overbearing decks are associated with.
because in reality RM isn't that good it warrants Infinite Obliteration, regardless of what people on this forum might say.
Reflector Mage itself, though, really isn't that much of a problem unless you are using a very control-oriented deck featuring very few creatures. Ban it? The probability of that happening is so remote that we may ignore it altogether.
Tell me why Infinite Obliteration isn't a card being played in this meta right now? The same deck running it would probably run Languish both being direct answers to the major problems the overbearing decks are associated with.
Because RM isn't the key card of the deck. Take RM out of CC weakens it ever so slightly, but they still get 2 hits off of CC, and you didn't impact the board at all (and might not have even impacted their hand). In W/U humans, you've just taken turn 3 off to do absolutely nothing to the board, and only MAYBE hit their hand. You can't afford that against aggro.
Infinite Obliteration Is great for killing creature combo decks, removing wincons in a control mirror, or hitting build around creatures. It doesn't really do anything against decks that just vomit value creatures and overwhelm you, unless you get extremely lucky and nail 2+ in the hand, and even then you need to follow with a Languish turn 4 or its GG.
Reflector Mage is a powerful card, but it is nowhere near build around, nor does it warp decks to hate on it. Plus, its 2 colors in a format that just lost fetches. If we ban it, we might as well ban Declaration in Stone, cuz every white deck plays it.
Yes, this deck...despite being hated on has made it to the finals.
CoCo + RM is extremely powerful, and although it's not settled I do not want to see it win.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
It's the spike mentality that ruins the game an stifles creative deck development. The labeling of yourself as a spike is rather narrow minded. Instead of creating and being innovative, you fall in line and follow. It's okay to play a deck like Bant CoCo in order to understand how it works, but saying it's the only deck you'll play because you are a spike is boring. It's like saying you'll only listen to 1 style of music because that one style RULEZ.
See the argument? It's childish.
saying that spikes are anti-creative is complete BS. it just means that you suck it up and make the best of the situation you're presented with. spike derives pleasure and enjoyment from competing, and the pleasure he gains is not as much dictated by what kind of format he's actually playing. maybe that means playing RM, but more likely it means trying to next level and be ahead of the curve. the current Pro Tour is an absolute spikefest, and what do you know, not everyone plays bant coco there. you got it all wrong mate. spikes are creative. they try to come up with ways to combat the meta and adjust to it.
also, saying that banning RM (or any card for that matter) would fix standard is also complete BS. nothing would change.
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this because your logic is so delusional it's almost scary. How can playing only the best deck that survived rotation from last standard make a spike creative. That is LITERALLY the most UNCREATIVE thing a magic player could possibly do. And Pro tour players go into the first pro Tours of the standard playing the most conservative, and uncreative decks on purpose, out of fear of getting dominated by last standards hold overs. Then FNM spikes follow suit. Eventually an actually creative deck will be spotted in an fnm made by joe blow nobody, and people start talking. Then the pro tour players steal that idea and put their stamp on it. If this wasn't true the pro tours wouldn't be 60-70% bant and the majority of the rest mono white. Competition has never ever been about taking chances and being creative. It's about being lazy and letting someone else do it for you, then you steal it. But you already know that, I mean you might be the first person to ever defend spikes, so one must assume you either are one or want to be one
It's the spike mentality that ruins the game an stifles creative deck development. The labeling of yourself as a spike is rather narrow minded. Instead of creating and being innovative, you fall in line and follow. It's okay to play a deck like Bant CoCo in order to understand how it works, but saying it's the only deck you'll play because you are a spike is boring. It's like saying you'll only listen to 1 style of music because that one style RULEZ.
See the argument? It's childish.
saying that spikes are anti-creative is complete BS. it just means that you suck it up and make the best of the situation you're presented with. spike derives pleasure and enjoyment from competing, and the pleasure he gains is not as much dictated by what kind of format he's actually playing. maybe that means playing RM, but more likely it means trying to next level and be ahead of the curve. the current Pro Tour is an absolute spikefest, and what do you know, not everyone plays bant coco there. you got it all wrong mate. spikes are creative. they try to come up with ways to combat the meta and adjust to it.
also, saying that banning RM (or any card for that matter) would fix standard is also complete BS. nothing would change.
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this because your logic is so delusional it's almost scary. How can playing only the best deck that survived rotation from last standard make a spike creative. That is LITERALLY the most UNCREATIVE thing a magic player could possibly do. And Pro tour players go into the first pro Tours of the standard playing the most conservative, and uncreative decks on purpose, out of fear of getting dominated by last standards hold overs. Then FNM spikes follow suit. Eventually an actually creative deck will be spotted in an fnm made by joe blow nobody, and people start talking. Then the pro tour players steal that idea and put their stamp on it. If this wasn't true the pro tours wouldn't be 60-70% bant and the majority of the rest mono white. Competition has never ever been about taking chances and being creative. It's about being lazy and letting someone else do it for you, then you steal it. But you already know that, I mean you might be the first person to ever defend spikes, so one must assume you either are one or want to be one
i think you should check your facts, the pro tour day 2 meta was about 20% bant, and all of the biggest names were NOT on bant, in fact they were on new decks of their own. also, bant company UNDERPERFORMED at the pro tour, with a negative transfer rate to day two, meaning that not only did the pro's showcase 5+ different decks for you to try out, but the new decks actually give bant a run for its money as well
when the format is brand new, you run what you know can work, usually this means aggro (humans) and whatever was untouched by the rotation (bant) until you can figure out what to do with the new cards. therefore, the last two weeks were dominated by the easy choices, and now the pro's are finally unveiling what they have been working on since the spoilers ended
Yes, this deck...despite being hated on has made it to the finals.
CoCo + RM is extremely powerful, and although it's not settled I do not want to see it win.
Only cause Mengucci begged the other guy to concede, otherwise the match would have been a tie, and someone else what have claimed that top 8 spot.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
@bfrie - remember there was a 3/5 round split between limited and standard respectively. You needed a 4-4 or better to move onto Day 2. Limited did play a large part in that negative transfer. Overall I think everyone expected Bant to be hated out and it still did pretty good.
The top decks we saw this weekend were extensions of decks we saw last season, with two exceptions of the Pantheon Season's Past deck, and Manfield's Esper Control.
I have played on and off since judgement and I don't think wizards has ever banned a card this early in the format (minus banning tolarian academy before it was legal so it never saw real play). I believe the affinity ban happened sometime in the middle of the first standard it was legal in, and the caw blade ban happened two months before the banned cards were to rotate (cause wizards is unable to say deal with it for two more months).
Jace SHOULD be unbanned in modern. I hate all the people saying "JACE IS BROKEN OHMYGOD HE'LL TAKE OVER AND CAWBLADE WILL REIGN SUPREME AGAIN" when bloodbraid elf literally comes down after jace and kicks jace right in the crotch, takes jace's lunch money, and jace is left to bleed out on the sidewalk in agonizing pain.
It's the spike mentality that ruins the game an stifles creative deck development. The labeling of yourself as a spike is rather narrow minded. Instead of creating and being innovative, you fall in line and follow. It's okay to play a deck like Bant CoCo in order to understand how it works, but saying it's the only deck you'll play because you are a spike is boring. It's like saying you'll only listen to 1 style of music because that one style RULEZ.
See the argument? It's childish.
saying that spikes are anti-creative is complete BS. it just means that you suck it up and make the best of the situation you're presented with. spike derives pleasure and enjoyment from competing, and the pleasure he gains is not as much dictated by what kind of format he's actually playing. maybe that means playing RM, but more likely it means trying to next level and be ahead of the curve. the current Pro Tour is an absolute spikefest, and what do you know, not everyone plays bant coco there. you got it all wrong mate. spikes are creative. they try to come up with ways to combat the meta and adjust to it.
also, saying that banning RM (or any card for that matter) would fix standard is also complete BS. nothing would change.
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this because your logic is so delusional it's almost scary. How can playing only the best deck that survived rotation from last standard make a spike creative. That is LITERALLY the most UNCREATIVE thing a magic player could possibly do. And Pro tour players go into the first pro Tours of the standard playing the most conservative, and uncreative decks on purpose, out of fear of getting dominated by last standards hold overs. Then FNM spikes follow suit. Eventually an actually creative deck will be spotted in an fnm made by joe blow nobody, and people start talking. Then the pro tour players steal that idea and put their stamp on it. If this wasn't true the pro tours wouldn't be 60-70% bant and the majority of the rest mono white. Competition has never ever been about taking chances and being creative. It's about being lazy and letting someone else do it for you, then you steal it. But you already know that, I mean you might be the first person to ever defend spikes, so one must assume you either are one or want to be one
i think you should check your facts, the pro tour day 2 meta was about 20% bant, and all of the biggest names were NOT on bant, in fact they were on new decks of their own. also, bant company UNDERPERFORMED at the pro tour, with a negative transfer rate to day two, meaning that not only did the pro's showcase 5+ different decks for you to try out, but the new decks actually give bant a run for its money as well
when the format is brand new, you run what you know can work, usually this means aggro (humans) and whatever was untouched by the rotation (bant) until you can figure out what to do with the new cards. therefore, the last two weeks were dominated by the easy choices, and now the pro's are finally unveiling what they have been working on since the spoilers ended
So you are confirming my point, and then telling me to check my facts. I'm not sure you understand how to make an argument. It was a valiant effort though.
It's the spike mentality that ruins the game an stifles creative deck development. The labeling of yourself as a spike is rather narrow minded. Instead of creating and being innovative, you fall in line and follow. It's okay to play a deck like Bant CoCo in order to understand how it works, but saying it's the only deck you'll play because you are a spike is boring. It's like saying you'll only listen to 1 style of music because that one style RULEZ.
See the argument? It's childish.
saying that spikes are anti-creative is complete BS. it just means that you suck it up and make the best of the situation you're presented with. spike derives pleasure and enjoyment from competing, and the pleasure he gains is not as much dictated by what kind of format he's actually playing. maybe that means playing RM, but more likely it means trying to next level and be ahead of the curve. the current Pro Tour is an absolute spikefest, and what do you know, not everyone plays bant coco there. you got it all wrong mate. spikes are creative. they try to come up with ways to combat the meta and adjust to it.
also, saying that banning RM (or any card for that matter) would fix standard is also complete BS. nothing would change.
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this because your logic is so delusional it's almost scary. How can playing only the best deck that survived rotation from last standard make a spike creative. That is LITERALLY the most UNCREATIVE thing a magic player could possibly do. And Pro tour players go into the first pro Tours of the standard playing the most conservative, and uncreative decks on purpose, out of fear of getting dominated by last standards hold overs. Then FNM spikes follow suit. Eventually an actually creative deck will be spotted in an fnm made by joe blow nobody, and people start talking. Then the pro tour players steal that idea and put their stamp on it. If this wasn't true the pro tours wouldn't be 60-70% bant and the majority of the rest mono white. Competition has never ever been about taking chances and being creative. It's about being lazy and letting someone else do it for you, then you steal it. But you already know that, I mean you might be the first person to ever defend spikes, so one must assume you either are one or want to be one
i think you should check your facts, the pro tour day 2 meta was about 20% bant, and all of the biggest names were NOT on bant, in fact they were on new decks of their own. also, bant company UNDERPERFORMED at the pro tour, with a negative transfer rate to day two, meaning that not only did the pro's showcase 5+ different decks for you to try out, but the new decks actually give bant a run for its money as well
when the format is brand new, you run what you know can work, usually this means aggro (humans) and whatever was untouched by the rotation (bant) until you can figure out what to do with the new cards. therefore, the last two weeks were dominated by the easy choices, and now the pro's are finally unveiling what they have been working on since the spoilers ended
So you are confirming my point, and then telling me to check my facts. I'm not sure you understand how to make an argument. It was a valiant effort though.
being different just for the sake of being different is something anyone can do. coming up with actual great decks is true creativity.
it's not like there's a unique mtg deck for every person out there. there are thousands and thousands of standard players out there. once something gets discovered then some people must just copy, because there is nothing competitive left to discover.
In the early stages of this new standard, I expected to see:
Bant CoCo
Some form of aggro (and WOTC pretty much gave us the blue prints and curve in stone Ha Ha <-- COme on now! I'm here all day! ) lol
That's pretty much it. There were and currently are still many card combinations left unexplored. Seeing Bant CoCo do as well as it HAS, despite being heavily Meta Gamed against is an indicator as how resilient the deck actually is. Let us go a littler further, it made it to the finals. It doesn't matter how you make it to the final ( Whether Mangucci's actions on camera are brought up or not is 100% irrelevant because the fact is he made and the rest is history), it matters that you get there.
So let's reflect, the Pros created decks with a target in mind, Bant and W based Aggressive/Midrange strategies. Were they successful? Yes and No, Bant still made a strong showing:
Please take a HARD look at that list. You will see bant CoCo variants put at least 19 copies with 6+ wins. I mean, for a meta that was geared to suppress it, it still did Okay and went beyond the hate. Now Bant CoCo players can adjust and tune.
What you can take from my argument isn't that "net decking" is terrible, it's falling in line and saying a deck is the best and this is what everyone should play is what gets my temper flaring. WHen players at PPTQ's and LGS hail Bant CoCo as the best deck, and then I ask them "well, what beats this? Have you tried coming up with a solution" and they reply "I'll just play it", is when I feel like decks like this run rampant and stifle creative deck builders. That's not good, and I really dislike a so called "Spike" telling me I should just play this deck because "You're good man, just play it",
No, hell no. I will not play a deck if I don't like it's game plan, and if I'm not having fun, and competing for top spots than why even play MTG? Why play deck that isn't suited for my play style?
Would you sell out and listen to a genre of music because you just want to fit in? That's just an unacceptable answer and scenario and I do feel bad for players that fall into this category. If you are a grinder and are "meta gaming", that's fine. I get that, I've done that, I'll still never play a deck that doesn't jive with me.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Nothing needs to be banned or changed. But if they did ban something... Don't you think they'd ban the card who's name is actually in the name of the deck and appears in like three other decks?
We have just had 8 different decks in top8... This thread is still going?
Srsly, Season's past, RG Goggles, RW Eldrazi goggles, BG aristocrats, GW tokens, Bant Company, Esper Dragons, Esper Planeswalkers. Some are somewhat similiar but generally each deck was different in how it plays.
Even just outside of top8, on 8-2 standard or better there were Wx Humans, Jeskai control and Sultai midrange. Another 3 different decks.
And there are more. Jund, Naya, UR goggles. You name it.
By this and how playing feels, its one of the best standards for a long time.
For me anyway.
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That being said, it's two colors, isn't an auto include in all blue or white decks, and doesn't warp the format around it.
because in reality RM isn't that good it warrants Infinite Obliteration, regardless of what people on this forum might say.
Youtube Channel
Reflector Mage itself, though, really isn't that much of a problem unless you are using a very control-oriented deck featuring very few creatures. Ban it? The probability of that happening is so remote that we may ignore it altogether.
Because RM isn't the key card of the deck. Take RM out of CC weakens it ever so slightly, but they still get 2 hits off of CC, and you didn't impact the board at all (and might not have even impacted their hand). In W/U humans, you've just taken turn 3 off to do absolutely nothing to the board, and only MAYBE hit their hand. You can't afford that against aggro.
Infinite Obliteration Is great for killing creature combo decks, removing wincons in a control mirror, or hitting build around creatures. It doesn't really do anything against decks that just vomit value creatures and overwhelm you, unless you get extremely lucky and nail 2+ in the hand, and even then you need to follow with a Languish turn 4 or its GG.
Reflector Mage is a powerful card, but it is nowhere near build around, nor does it warp decks to hate on it. Plus, its 2 colors in a format that just lost fetches. If we ban it, we might as well ban Declaration in Stone, cuz every white deck plays it.
CoCo + RM is extremely powerful, and although it's not settled I do not want to see it win.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I'm sorry but I have to comment on this because your logic is so delusional it's almost scary. How can playing only the best deck that survived rotation from last standard make a spike creative. That is LITERALLY the most UNCREATIVE thing a magic player could possibly do. And Pro tour players go into the first pro Tours of the standard playing the most conservative, and uncreative decks on purpose, out of fear of getting dominated by last standards hold overs. Then FNM spikes follow suit. Eventually an actually creative deck will be spotted in an fnm made by joe blow nobody, and people start talking. Then the pro tour players steal that idea and put their stamp on it. If this wasn't true the pro tours wouldn't be 60-70% bant and the majority of the rest mono white. Competition has never ever been about taking chances and being creative. It's about being lazy and letting someone else do it for you, then you steal it. But you already know that, I mean you might be the first person to ever defend spikes, so one must assume you either are one or want to be one
i think you should check your facts, the pro tour day 2 meta was about 20% bant, and all of the biggest names were NOT on bant, in fact they were on new decks of their own. also, bant company UNDERPERFORMED at the pro tour, with a negative transfer rate to day two, meaning that not only did the pro's showcase 5+ different decks for you to try out, but the new decks actually give bant a run for its money as well
when the format is brand new, you run what you know can work, usually this means aggro (humans) and whatever was untouched by the rotation (bant) until you can figure out what to do with the new cards. therefore, the last two weeks were dominated by the easy choices, and now the pro's are finally unveiling what they have been working on since the spoilers ended
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Only cause Mengucci begged the other guy to concede, otherwise the match would have been a tie, and someone else what have claimed that top 8 spot.
The top decks we saw this weekend were extensions of decks we saw last season, with two exceptions of the Pantheon Season's Past deck, and Manfield's Esper Control.
So you are confirming my point, and then telling me to check my facts. I'm not sure you understand how to make an argument. It was a valiant effort though.
being different just for the sake of being different is something anyone can do. coming up with actual great decks is true creativity.
it's not like there's a unique mtg deck for every person out there. there are thousands and thousands of standard players out there. once something gets discovered then some people must just copy, because there is nothing competitive left to discover.
Youtube Channel
Bant CoCo
Some form of aggro (and WOTC pretty much gave us the blue prints and curve in stone Ha Ha <-- COme on now! I'm here all day! ) lol
That's pretty much it. There were and currently are still many card combinations left unexplored. Seeing Bant CoCo do as well as it HAS, despite being heavily Meta Gamed against is an indicator as how resilient the deck actually is. Let us go a littler further, it made it to the finals. It doesn't matter how you make it to the final ( Whether Mangucci's actions on camera are brought up or not is 100% irrelevant because the fact is he made and the rest is history), it matters that you get there.
So let's reflect, the Pros created decks with a target in mind, Bant and W based Aggressive/Midrange strategies. Were they successful? Yes and No, Bant still made a strong showing:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/pro-tour-shadows-over-innistrad#paper
Please take a HARD look at that list. You will see bant CoCo variants put at least 19 copies with 6+ wins. I mean, for a meta that was geared to suppress it, it still did Okay and went beyond the hate. Now Bant CoCo players can adjust and tune.
What you can take from my argument isn't that "net decking" is terrible, it's falling in line and saying a deck is the best and this is what everyone should play is what gets my temper flaring. WHen players at PPTQ's and LGS hail Bant CoCo as the best deck, and then I ask them "well, what beats this? Have you tried coming up with a solution" and they reply "I'll just play it", is when I feel like decks like this run rampant and stifle creative deck builders. That's not good, and I really dislike a so called "Spike" telling me I should just play this deck because "You're good man, just play it",
No, hell no. I will not play a deck if I don't like it's game plan, and if I'm not having fun, and competing for top spots than why even play MTG? Why play deck that isn't suited for my play style?
Would you sell out and listen to a genre of music because you just want to fit in? That's just an unacceptable answer and scenario and I do feel bad for players that fall into this category. If you are a grinder and are "meta gaming", that's fine. I get that, I've done that, I'll still never play a deck that doesn't jive with me.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Srsly, Season's past, RG Goggles, RW Eldrazi goggles, BG aristocrats, GW tokens, Bant Company, Esper Dragons, Esper Planeswalkers. Some are somewhat similiar but generally each deck was different in how it plays.
Even just outside of top8, on 8-2 standard or better there were Wx Humans, Jeskai control and Sultai midrange. Another 3 different decks.
And there are more. Jund, Naya, UR goggles. You name it.
By this and how playing feels, its one of the best standards for a long time.
For me anyway.