I don't see the price going down any time soon and if anything it's only going to go up over time.
Well, I guess it kind of depends on what gets printed in Oath. If something along the lines of Dreadbore is printed, that could reduce his value.
That's not going to stop it being played in Modern, Legacy and Vintage. It will remain high even after it rotates and likely get higher in a few years, just like Snapcaster and Liliana of the Veil did.
4. They should print foil packs like they did in alara. I'm guessing they didn't sell well or something... but hey, with the magic player base growing, maybe it could work again? I would like to do an all foil draft
Dude, those foil packs were the bomb.
I've heard a lot about apparently big retailers are purposefully slowing Jace sales to gouge the price. Anyone confirm or deny? It would make sense, Jace is a good solid card and he has high demand but He's not worth 80 dollars in the slightest.
Part of the problem with the secondary market is these big retailers sorta set the price and the playerbase is ravenous enough to pay it no matter what it is. I mean, even if everybody banded together and refused to buy cards unless their price was lowered I'm sure someone would be out there buying them so they could have a tiny edge over the people trying to influence the market.
Also, the price of these decks are nuts. at this point, my GF is wanting to get into magic and it might be cheaper for me to buy her Tron or soemthing. Standard is more expensive that Modern now. What happened?
Jace is played in Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage. I don't see the price going down any time soon and if anything it's only going to go up over time. It is one of the best planeswalkers ever printed and unless it gets mass banned in eternal formats (it won't) the price will stay high. Never trust MTGsalvation when it comes to evaluating cards. It was only a few weeks ago that everyone in this thread was saying Flip jace wasn't good enough for eternal formats and was going to drop to under $50 by November.
He sees fringe play in those formats, and games I've watched with him in it he either immediately dies vs. Aggro or gets countered/removed vs control. When you do get value out of him, he acts as a bad Snapcaster Mage that drew you a card. I don't expect him to stay long
I saw one starting at ~$59 on eBay. Nice pull if you got one.
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
I saw one starting at ~$59 on eBay. Nice pull if you got one.
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
I know Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions are great cards but i dunno man i personally would have gotten for more then those cards if trading a foil mythic card, Specially for Kozilek
I saw one starting at ~$59 on eBay. Nice pull if you got one.
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
I know Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions are great cards but i dunno man i personally would have gotten for more then those cards if trading a foil mythic card, Specially for Kozilek
I think according to goldfish, I got $93ish US in trade from him (I got a couple other random cards). I expect that Snappy will slowly increase in value over time, but isn't it quite likely that Kozilek will drop quickly after release? (like a $20-$25 drop within a month?)
Well, as long as everybody just follow the Pros and play the decks, that did well at bigger events, Prices for the staples of these decks will stay high.
Just think a bit yourself, try new strategies, and perhaps create the new Tier 1 Deck, that then will become expensive, because all the lazy guys out there prefer to pay enormous amounts of money instead of spending time for testing and creating.
This mindset is so bizarre and illogical.
People don't copy the pros because they're "lazy." They do it because the pros tend to get it right very quickly.
I just spent the entirety of BFZ Standard throwing together a new deck every two weeks to fit the play style that I like. I tried basically everything and finally caved and built Dark Jeskai around Christmas.
Wasted 3 months. The deck I wanted to play was literally just right there the whole time, but I was too busy trying to make "my" deck (and also just didn't recognize that Dark Jeskai was the deck I wanted to play) to notice it.
I thought I could at least squeeze 3 months of fun out of the deck, but the metagame is about to shift big with OGW. So maybe that decision doesn't even work out. But I could have had a great 3-month run like I did with Abzan all last year if I'd just followed the pros from the jump.
If you care about playing the best type of deck that you want to play, then following the pros isn't lazy, it's just efficient and maximizes the fun you'll have. Otherwise you're going to spend weeks or months bumbling around with inefficient, untuned decks that are just bad versions of what you could have been playing the whole time.
For Standard, it's also possible to brew something, that is just a bit worse than the Tier 1 decks, but much cheaper, because not the high demand staples in it.
This is only possible when there are strong, synergy-based strategies supported in the cardpool whose pieces aren't used elsewhere or are printed at (Un)Common. Decks that are powerful, but made of cards that wouldn't see play anywhere else.
Because aside from those sorts of decks, any brewer is going to eventually find themselves asking themselves "Why aren't I running X?" when putting together a deck because certain format staples are so much more powerful than any substitute. No Standard recursion engines come close to Jace or Den Protector. Nothing even approaches Ulamog or Ugin when it comes to ramp goals; are you really going to run Desolation Twin instead? Any manabase that's 2+ colors is going to want fetchlands. Gideon is an insane token/Ally enabler; just compare him to Retreat to Emeria.
There's often no getting around these insanely pushed Rares/Mythics, even if you're a brewer. Either there isn't enough support for oddball strategies or those decks want the expensive staples.
So you advocate budget brews trying to win tournaments...
I would say it is damn hard
One should be on pro constructing level to do that
Or even higher than that because his deck have to compete against no-budget-limit decks
That won't work
Of course one can win a tournament or two because of variance and rogue nature of the deck
But he can't be better than pros. If he is than he is a pro. I assume your advice was for non-pros...
The problem is that they are making 1000+ cards in one year. If they where 200, one set only, most people would be able to collect them. And there is no entry for the new players. If they care about making money they are taking that out the game and they lose. 1000 people buying 10.000 cards is less than 1.000.000 people buying 100 cards. The more casual will have it, the more players will be. The more hardcore, the more cards per player.
**** YOU ALL META GUYS, you are just making new people scared of mtg, meta is one big lie and if you know how to build deck and how to play you are always going to go at least 2-2 on FNM even if you dont have a lot of money.
You should post your budget deck results for us after this week's FNM.
This is about prices and as long as everyone plays the same deck, because it's good (and yeah it is most times), prices for this deck keeps high.
For Standard, it's also possible to brew something, that is just a bit worse than the Tier 1 decks, but much cheaper, because not the high demand staples in it.
Blue Devotion was a good example of this. Nobody tried Master of Waves until ProTour and after that, it shot from 2-3 Euros to ~15 Euros to go down a bit after that. Or a Mono Red Dragon Deck that ruled our FNMs for 2-3 weeks while DTK was new because no one thought such a deck would be viable or even good, but it obviously was and it was cheap as hell.
It's time consuming to find this good deck and no guarantee to really get it, but if you don't want to pay that much for a deck, there is no way, than to try it. Most people (and me also) go with the lazy way and have to pay more for their cards. That's just a decision I made and am aware of, but most people seem to be unaware and that's kind of stunning.
But it's still not lazy to take what works and tweak it, which is more or less what you're saying.
Your argument is akin to saying it's lazy to buy a dishwasher when all you really need is to buy some soap and a sponge and scrub your dishes yourself. What is lazy about spending less time on the exact same task?
There's a reason "tier 1" decks exist -- they're just good. They're often better than what you make up yourself. Very often. It's not lazy to recognize that someone did a better job at you at designing a deck that executes the gameplan you want to be playing in a game of Magic. Rather, I find it's regularly a combination of pride and bias when self-proclaimed brewers don't recognize that others did a better job than they did.
**** YOU ALL META GUYS, you are just making new people scared of mtg, meta is one big lie and if you know how to build deck and how to play you are always going to go at least 2-2 on FNM even if you dont have a lot of money.
Yeah forgive me for having higher aspirations than 2-2 at FNM.
you dont need to have "top tier" deck to win gp or pt, you only need to have good deck. But you are too stupid to se that and its easier to just copy another deck...and do you know why would you sucks when you come at gp?? because you are bad player. TO PREVENT TROLLS other decks have smaller chance to win gp not because they are weak but because out of for example 3000 there is only 1 or 2 people playing that deck, and about 300 of them playing popular deck. So it is naural to have smaller chance of winning. BUT YOU ARE STUPID AND YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THAT ******* noobs
Debate on the meta is fine (although this wouldn't appear to be the thread for it but I digress). Flaming is not. -- Lugger
I don't think I follow. Are you saying that every deck has a mostly equal chance of winning an event, and the only reason people pick "top tier" decks is because they're just noobs who follow the crowd? That there aren't any intrinsic qualities to these "top tier" decks that make them better?
The cost on standard should decrease once Kahns rotates out. The problem is they released a really strong set followed by a really weak set, which put all the pressure on the set that isn't being opened anymore to carry people through the season. If Shadows is stronger than BFZ / Oath, the cost should plummet considerably.
I'm mostly modern so I just sit and wait for rotation to pick up the best cards from standard season, but yeah Kahns block had a lot of really playable cards across all formats and even brought an interesting mechanic in the form of prowess. BFZ will be remembered as another Kamigawa flop that may have eternal playability, but was underwhelming when in standard. Especially given how boring the story is and how overbloated the planeswalker focus is. None of the planeswalkers have good stories at the moment, it's like the giant junk drawer of MTG is the plane of Zendikar and the Eldrazi are some kind of ancient fungus we just happened to find looming behind some forgotten letters and a bottle of half eaten baby pudding.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The cost on standard should decrease once Kahns rotates out. The problem is they released a really strong set followed by a really weak set, which put all the pressure on the set that isn't being opened anymore to carry people through the season. If Shadows is stronger than BFZ / Oath, the cost should plummet considerably.
I'm mostly modern so I just sit and wait for rotation to pick up the best cards from standard season, but yeah Kahns block had a lot of really playable cards across all formats and even brought an interesting mechanic in the form of prowess. BFZ will be remembered as another Kamigawa flop that may have eternal playability, but was underwhelming when in standard. Especially given how boring the story is and how overbloated the planeswalker focus is. None of the planeswalkers have good stories at the moment, it's like the giant junk drawer of MTG is the plane of Zendikar and the Eldrazi are some kind of ancient fungus we just happened to find looming behind some forgotten letters and a bottle of half eaten baby pudding.
I wouldn't compare BFZ/Oath to Kamigawa. BFZ/Oath has plenty of solid cards whereas Kamigawa aside from a handful of cards was very underwhelming to say the least.
The cost on standard should decrease once Kahns rotates out. The problem is they released a really strong set followed by a really weak set, which put all the pressure on the set that isn't being opened anymore to carry people through the season. If Shadows is stronger than BFZ / Oath, the cost should plummet considerably.
I'm mostly modern so I just sit and wait for rotation to pick up the best cards from standard season, but yeah Kahns block had a lot of really playable cards across all formats and even brought an interesting mechanic in the form of prowess. BFZ will be remembered as another Kamigawa flop that may have eternal playability, but was underwhelming when in standard. Especially given how boring the story is and how overbloated the planeswalker focus is. None of the planeswalkers have good stories at the moment, it's like the giant junk drawer of MTG is the plane of Zendikar and the Eldrazi are some kind of ancient fungus we just happened to find looming behind some forgotten letters and a bottle of half eaten baby pudding.
I wouldn't compare BFZ/Oath to Kamigawa. BFZ/Oath has plenty of solid cards whereas Kamigawa aside from a handful of cards was very underwhelming to say the least.
Oh, BFZ is pretty close to Kamigawa bad. However, it largely depends on whether we are talking standard/modern playable vs EDH playable. Oath and BFZ are much more playable in EDH than they are in modern/standard outside of a few choice cards like Giddeon, ally of Zendikar, Kalitas, traitor of Ghet, Drana, Liberator of Malakir, etc. They did bring a few good additions like Slip through space.
Also, it may just be a bit of bad luck, but the ally cards in the block just seem horribly underwhelming. Kahns was a blast because you got good power for decent price with the different kahn tribes, but allies are just... ugh.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hi guys, now that madness is confirmed is it even possible for the price of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to go even higher then it's current price of about $70?
For those playing along at home: Channel is selling Mind Sculptors for 90 dollars...and Vryn's Prodigys for 100. Real glad I found some on ebay last month for 65.
I have a thing where I buy a box of a new set and then 1 pack of cards a week. Then when I'm making a deck and don't have the cards for it I limit myself to about 25 dollars to purchase things with.
I guess that doesn't really count as a budget deck though.
ANYWAYS. IF that Thing in the Ice card ends up really expensive I'm going to facepalm so hard.
I can't believe Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is almost $100. Yes, It is mythic and super good, but being the most expensive standard card since Jace, the Mind Sculptor makes no sense. I didn't play Magic in its time, but I believe competitive standard decks without Jace were basically nonexistent back then, and he was widely played in Extended and Legacy. He is still widely played and $80-90.
This time is different. See Goldfish's staples page. He is not even the most played creature! Few people play him in Modern and Legacy, which means Modern and Legacy exclusive players don't contribute to the demand, and his value will plummet after a half year. Seriously, what is going on?
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That's not going to stop it being played in Modern, Legacy and Vintage. It will remain high even after it rotates and likely get higher in a few years, just like Snapcaster and Liliana of the Veil did.
Theres something wrong when standard decks are more expensive then alot of modern ones....
He sees fringe play in those formats, and games I've watched with him in it he either immediately dies vs. Aggro or gets countered/removed vs control. When you do get value out of him, he acts as a bad Snapcaster Mage that drew you a card. I don't expect him to stay long
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Modern -
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
Modern -
I know Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions are great cards but i dunno man i personally would have gotten for more then those cards if trading a foil mythic card, Specially for Kozilek
I think according to goldfish, I got $93ish US in trade from him (I got a couple other random cards). I expect that Snappy will slowly increase in value over time, but isn't it quite likely that Kozilek will drop quickly after release? (like a $20-$25 drop within a month?)
Modern -
This mindset is so bizarre and illogical.
People don't copy the pros because they're "lazy." They do it because the pros tend to get it right very quickly.
I just spent the entirety of BFZ Standard throwing together a new deck every two weeks to fit the play style that I like. I tried basically everything and finally caved and built Dark Jeskai around Christmas.
Wasted 3 months. The deck I wanted to play was literally just right there the whole time, but I was too busy trying to make "my" deck (and also just didn't recognize that Dark Jeskai was the deck I wanted to play) to notice it.
I thought I could at least squeeze 3 months of fun out of the deck, but the metagame is about to shift big with OGW. So maybe that decision doesn't even work out. But I could have had a great 3-month run like I did with Abzan all last year if I'd just followed the pros from the jump.
If you care about playing the best type of deck that you want to play, then following the pros isn't lazy, it's just efficient and maximizes the fun you'll have. Otherwise you're going to spend weeks or months bumbling around with inefficient, untuned decks that are just bad versions of what you could have been playing the whole time.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
This is only possible when there are strong, synergy-based strategies supported in the cardpool whose pieces aren't used elsewhere or are printed at (Un)Common. Decks that are powerful, but made of cards that wouldn't see play anywhere else.
Because aside from those sorts of decks, any brewer is going to eventually find themselves asking themselves "Why aren't I running X?" when putting together a deck because certain format staples are so much more powerful than any substitute. No Standard recursion engines come close to Jace or Den Protector. Nothing even approaches Ulamog or Ugin when it comes to ramp goals; are you really going to run Desolation Twin instead? Any manabase that's 2+ colors is going to want fetchlands. Gideon is an insane token/Ally enabler; just compare him to Retreat to Emeria.
There's often no getting around these insanely pushed Rares/Mythics, even if you're a brewer. Either there isn't enough support for oddball strategies or those decks want the expensive staples.
I would say it is damn hard
One should be on pro constructing level to do that
Or even higher than that because his deck have to compete against no-budget-limit decks
That won't work
Of course one can win a tournament or two because of variance and rogue nature of the deck
But he can't be better than pros. If he is than he is a pro. I assume your advice was for non-pros...
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Say what?
You should post your budget deck results for us after this week's FNM.
But it's still not lazy to take what works and tweak it, which is more or less what you're saying.
Your argument is akin to saying it's lazy to buy a dishwasher when all you really need is to buy some soap and a sponge and scrub your dishes yourself. What is lazy about spending less time on the exact same task?
There's a reason "tier 1" decks exist -- they're just good. They're often better than what you make up yourself. Very often. It's not lazy to recognize that someone did a better job at you at designing a deck that executes the gameplan you want to be playing in a game of Magic. Rather, I find it's regularly a combination of pride and bias when self-proclaimed brewers don't recognize that others did a better job than they did.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Yeah forgive me for having higher aspirations than 2-2 at FNM.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I don't think I follow. Are you saying that every deck has a mostly equal chance of winning an event, and the only reason people pick "top tier" decks is because they're just noobs who follow the crowd? That there aren't any intrinsic qualities to these "top tier" decks that make them better?
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I'm mostly modern so I just sit and wait for rotation to pick up the best cards from standard season, but yeah Kahns block had a lot of really playable cards across all formats and even brought an interesting mechanic in the form of prowess. BFZ will be remembered as another Kamigawa flop that may have eternal playability, but was underwhelming when in standard. Especially given how boring the story is and how overbloated the planeswalker focus is. None of the planeswalkers have good stories at the moment, it's like the giant junk drawer of MTG is the plane of Zendikar and the Eldrazi are some kind of ancient fungus we just happened to find looming behind some forgotten letters and a bottle of half eaten baby pudding.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I wouldn't compare BFZ/Oath to Kamigawa. BFZ/Oath has plenty of solid cards whereas Kamigawa aside from a handful of cards was very underwhelming to say the least.
Oh, BFZ is pretty close to Kamigawa bad. However, it largely depends on whether we are talking standard/modern playable vs EDH playable. Oath and BFZ are much more playable in EDH than they are in modern/standard outside of a few choice cards like Giddeon, ally of Zendikar, Kalitas, traitor of Ghet, Drana, Liberator of Malakir, etc. They did bring a few good additions like Slip through space.
Also, it may just be a bit of bad luck, but the ally cards in the block just seem horribly underwhelming. Kahns was a blast because you got good power for decent price with the different kahn tribes, but allies are just... ugh.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
4 mardu woe-reaper
4 dragon hunter
3 kytheon, hero of kythos
4 knight of the white orchid
3 anathenza, tree-kin spirit
4 archangel of tithe
3 wingmate roc
4 silkwrap
2 valorous stance
3 stasis snare
3 secure the wastes
Land: 23
23 plains
4 mastery of the unseen
4 surge of righteousness
3 ashen cleric
2 valorous stance
1 stasis snare
1 citadel siege
The deck isn't that expensive but seems to do quite well. Deck comes under $100 or a jace, vryn's prodigy lol.
I guess that doesn't really count as a budget deck though.
ANYWAYS. IF that Thing in the Ice card ends up really expensive I'm going to facepalm so hard.
This time is different. See Goldfish's staples page. He is not even the most played creature! Few people play him in Modern and Legacy, which means Modern and Legacy exclusive players don't contribute to the demand, and his value will plummet after a half year. Seriously, what is going on?