Jeskai Is to good at the moment it won't be long before top 8 decks in big tourneys will be 7-8 Jeskai decks, it has the wind to its back. I have no desire to play blue so it's not the price of Jace that bothers me its how broken all the card advantage is in Jeskai, jace just being one piece.
The deck is strong, but it's hardly too good. Abzan had a larger share of the Day 2 Metagame for GP Quebec City.
That may have more to do with Dark Jeskai being an $800 deck.
Abzan is a $677 deck while GW Megamorph is the most expensive in the format (per MTG Goldfish) at $785. Abzan is still very good and a legitimate choice regardless of price.
I think the problem is not Jace VP but the lack of widely played PW answers. Ruinous Path and Exquisite Firecraft are surely a lot worse then WotC taught they would be so there are currently a unintended void in terms of PW answers cards in the pool of format staple cards.
Printing more efficient and wide removal would only make Jace more powerful. That's hardly a cure if there needed to be one. I don't see the problem myself though. Jace isn't very punishing towards any specific archetype, and letting people play with merfolk looter adds a nice amount of consistency to the games. Jace just means you need to have enough reactive elements in your deck especially for the early game, which adds diversity to the format since forcing people to play with efficient reactive spells means theres a bigger chance for ramp style decks to go over the top of midrange, for example. Same with Control.
I can't help to think people are moaning simply because they have been introduced to a blue format staple after the dominance of courser of kruphix and perhaps thoughtseize. Blue has been so underpowered in standard for so long it's nice have some change with jace
I think the price is unreasonable but that really doesn't have anything to do with competitive balance. I don't play Jace but I've played against it, and between the games I've played and the pro games I've watched, it seems like there a lot of games he wins and a lot of games in which he's largely irrelevant. It's an incredibly useful utility piece, but only one piece as has been mentioned.
The four-color good stuff decks will probably go away when Khans rotates anyway, meaning Jace will be less widely played. So this is temporarily a problem if it's even a problem.
We are no where near a ban. Standard bans are reserved for cards that become an overwhelming numbers of the top 8 of numerous events (80% or more).
We will never get to that point with a card that dies to wild slash.
I really dislike this Wow generation that think everything that is good needs a ban.
The problem is while Jace dies to wild slash turn 2 or 3 Ojutai's Command Resurrects him back a couple turns later. Then he'll do a little digging flip and start to burry the opponent in card advantage by flashing cards back from the graveyard. Running removal spells is not enough to deal with jace we need a good graveyard removal card. Even if you successfully deal with Jace he's just one soldier in Jeskai, Mantis Rider and Dragonmaster Outcast are ready to put the game away. Commands can also resurrect Dragonmaster late game. I would rather see wizards print a answer for Jace than Ban him personally but if they do not I really believe jace will take over the format and cause a lot of players to stop playing Standard.
This Jace isn't close to Mind Sculptor in power level or format warping, and I don't think JTMS deserved a standard ban.
JTMS should have been ban much early than it was, if JTMS wasn't broken to you no card will be. JTMS was the most broken most divisive card ever in standard and Standard rotation was much slower back then.. Skullclamp wasn't as bad as JTMS since every color could run it.
This Jace isn't close to Mind Sculptor in power level or format warping, and I don't think JTMS deserved a standard ban.
JTMS should have been ban much early than it was, if JTMS wasn't broken to you no card will be. JTMS was the most broken most divisive card ever in standard and Standard rotation was much slower back then.. Skullclamp wasn't as bad as JTMS since every color could run it.
I think every deck being able to run skullclamp made it even more broken and worthy of a ban. You could fight Jace with aggro decks or Valakut... well, until batterskull was printed. Then it was lights out, caw-blade had no real weakness. I'm not against the JTMS ban, but I don't think it was fully deserved.
December is a month before KTK and Fate rotate out.
They are not banning a damn thing, it is way too close to a rotation for it to make an impact on Standard that is going to do anything healthy for the game.
This Jace isn't close to Mind Sculptor in power level or format warping, and I don't think JTMS deserved a standard ban.
JTMS should have been ban much early than it was, if JTMS wasn't broken to you no card will be. JTMS was the most broken most divisive card ever in standard and Standard rotation was much slower back then.. Skullclamp wasn't as bad as JTMS since every color could run it.
I think every deck being able to run skullclamp made it even more broken and worthy of a ban. You could fight Jace with aggro decks or Valakut... well, until batterskull was printed. Then it was lights out, caw-blade had no real weakness. I'm not against the JTMS ban, but I don't think it was fully deserved.
JTMS was to good for standard but I think it should be unban in Modern. I guess his potential price is what keeps it ban. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy isn't broken as a card the problem is all the other cards that work so well with him and the lack of real answers that are not temporary fixes.
We are no where near a ban. Standard bans are reserved for cards that become an overwhelming numbers of the top 8 of numerous events (80% or more).
We will never get to that point with a card that dies to wild slash.
I really dislike this Wow generation that think everything that is good needs a ban.
The problem is while Jace dies to wild slash turn 2 or 3 Ojutai's Command Resurrects him back a couple turns later. Then he'll do a little digging flip and start to burry the opponent in card advantage by flashing cards back from the graveyard. Running removal spells is not enough to deal with jace we need a good graveyard removal card. Even if you successfully deal with Jace he's just one soldier in Jeskai, Mantis Rider and Dragonmaster Outcast are ready to put the game away. Commands can also resurrect Dragonmaster late game. I would rather see wizards print a answer for Jace than Ban him personally but if they do not I really believe jace will take over the format and cause a lot of players to stop playing Standard.
And this right here is why Jace doesn't warrant a ban. The problem isn't Jace himself, it's the meta around him. It's painfully weak on basic utility cards that have been in 90% of Standard sets for a decade. In a Standard with the most basic removal tools (Doom Blade, Magma Spray, Lightning Strike), and mild graveyard hate (Rest in Peace) both the Delve mechanic and Jace get noticeably worse.
In short, there's no deck he's creating around himself that's taking 6/8 slots in tourneys, he's not causing attendance to drop (this crappy meta can do that fine on its own), and a Merfolk Looter to so-so planeswalker is not inherently broken of itself. There's nothing here that's ban-worthy. It's just a terrible card pool and maybe it gets better. Or it doesn't, and he still stays.
December is a month before KTK and Fate rotate out.
They are not banning a damn thing, it is way too close to a rotation for it to make an impact on Standard that is going to do anything healthy for the game.
QQ.
Small correction. KTK and Fate won't rotate out until after the first set of the next block comes out. Not Oath. So sometime in April-May.
On topic, I don't think they need to ban jace, or will.
We are no where near a ban. Standard bans are reserved for cards that become an overwhelming numbers of the top 8 of numerous events (80% or more).
We will never get to that point with a card that dies to wild slash.
I really dislike this Wow generation that think everything that is good needs a ban.
The problem is while Jace dies to wild slash turn 2 or 3 Ojutai's Command Resurrects him back a couple turns later. Then he'll do a little digging flip and start to burry the opponent in card advantage by flashing cards back from the graveyard. Running removal spells is not enough to deal with jace we need a good graveyard removal card. Even if you successfully deal with Jace he's just one soldier in Jeskai, Mantis Rider and Dragonmaster Outcast are ready to put the game away. Commands can also resurrect Dragonmaster late game. I would rather see wizards print a answer for Jace than Ban him personally but if they do not I really believe jace will take over the format and cause a lot of players to stop playing Standard.
And this right here is why Jace doesn't warrant a ban. The problem isn't Jace himself, it's the meta around him. It's painfully weak on basic utility cards that have been in 90% of Standard sets for a decade. In a Standard with the most basic removal tools (Doom Blade, Magma Spray, Lightning Strike), and mild graveyard hate (Rest in Peace) both the Delve mechanic and Jace get noticeably worse.
In short, there's no deck he's creating around himself that's taking 6/8 slots in tourneys, he's not causing attendance to drop (this crappy meta can do that fine on its own), and a Merfolk Looter to so-so planeswalker is not inherently broken of itself. There's nothing here that's ban-worthy. It's just a terrible card pool and maybe it gets better. Or it doesn't, and he still stays.
I agree that Jace is not likely to get ban. Wizards decision to water down removal and do away with 1cc mana dorks is hurting standard.
I think we all know the true culprit here. The most format-warping card that's been printed in the history of magic. The only card that's objectively better than anything in the Power 9:
2 things must be true for a justified ban: 1) the card warps the format into "play with It or give up making top 8" and 2) all the decks that want the card are the same deck. Jace does neither: the PT was won by abzan, the previous 2 PTs were won by atarka red, and the most recent GP showed how Eldrazi ramp can go toe to toe with a jace heavy field. Plenty decks can compete be jace. As for item 2 in my list, the decks that want jace are quite diverse: jeskai tempo, tap out control, esper draw-go all have different plans: the first is more aggressive the second more midrange the third is full on control. Jace is powerful but not close to ban worthy.
PTs are never a good indication. All they prove is most of the popular players many of us love to follow are horrible drafters and haven't improved a bit in years even though they've known for that long that they really need to. (mini rant there lol)
Fact is 6/8 decks at the last big GP had a playset of Jace. If every deck is a Jace deck where does that leave the metagame? Warped around needing to buy a $300+ USD playset of cards to be competitive? That's not only unhealthy for MTG but it's a hit of the reputation of WoTC to produce a balanced and fair standard format.
When Dark Jeskai plays 3 fetches in the first 3 turns with Jace on turn 2 I already know I can't win. They get to Crackling Doom me twice and then Dig Through Time while beating my face in with Mantis Rider. I just lose over and over. I'm playing Abzan aggro.
Should he be banned? Yes. Will he be banned? Probably not because WoTC don't want to devalue Origins packs and upset everybody that has already bought the card. We will just have to put up with 4 different flavors of Jace decks dominating until fetchlands and Dig go away and he doesn't produce so much of a broken advantage.
We have 13 decks with no jace vs 7 Jace decks. And this is just standar, no draft mixed in. If you look at the meta breakdown from the GP, while the top 8 was jace, the top 32 had 14 non jace decks, and day 2 was even more filled with non jace decks. SCG opens are filled to the brim with den protectors.
And even if you did still believe Jace "warps the format", there are aggresive, midrange and control flavors of "jace decks". Dark jeskai can be very aggressive, Chapin tap out control is a control deck that can change gears and aggro you out turns 5-7 with Gideon emblem + secure the wastes, and Duke's control is old school control. Even withnthe "jace decks" there is flavor for everyone.
Warped around needing to buy a $300+ USD playset of cards to be competitive?
Sure, it sucks that a card is worth $80. But i think the whole "ban jace" hysteria is people that cant pay for it and if they can't have it they don't want anybody else to have it. Jace is not more oppresive than Sphinx's revelation was, or than Den protector-deathmist raptor package was, but nobody claimed those should be standard banned.
Also, the price is irrelevant for players who bought him at Origins launch for $11, back when everyone said he was worthless. I only regret not getting more than a playset. But there were also several months you could get Jace for a reasonable $20-30. If you're paying $70-80 for Jace, it's really your own fault for waiting.
But regardless of price, he's definitely not worth a ban. He has great synergy with cards only playable because of the ridiculous manabases available and his reign will fall hard once the fetches are gone. Considering the dominance of green and Abzan the past year, having to put up with Siege Rhino, Thoughtseize, Elspeth, Courser, Abzan Charm, and then add the recurring Deathmist Raptor and recursion of ANY card with Den Protector... Yeah, I'm completely OK with Jace and blue decks getting back in the spotlight.
Abzan is a $677 deck while GW Megamorph is the most expensive in the format (per MTG Goldfish) at $785. Abzan is still very good and a legitimate choice regardless of price.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Gideon is close to the same boat but at least people are drafting BFZ.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I can't help to think people are moaning simply because they have been introduced to a blue format staple after the dominance of courser of kruphix and perhaps thoughtseize. Blue has been so underpowered in standard for so long it's nice have some change with jace
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People are way to focused on the power level of the card, and not on the business side of things.
Caw blade stuck around for a long time, and the ban announcement talked a bunch about how people weren't coming out to events anymore because of it.
That's what will cause a ban, not a card being good, but people not showing up because of a card.
We will never get to that point with a card that dies to wild slash.
I really dislike this Wow generation that think everything that is good needs a ban.
The four-color good stuff decks will probably go away when Khans rotates anyway, meaning Jace will be less widely played. So this is temporarily a problem if it's even a problem.
Exquisite is amazing in the decks it'd go in
3 mana 4 damage uncounterable
What more do you expect it to do? Also say destroy target?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think every deck being able to run skullclamp made it even more broken and worthy of a ban. You could fight Jace with aggro decks or Valakut... well, until batterskull was printed. Then it was lights out, caw-blade had no real weakness. I'm not against the JTMS ban, but I don't think it was fully deserved.
They are not banning a damn thing, it is way too close to a rotation for it to make an impact on Standard that is going to do anything healthy for the game.
QQ.
And this right here is why Jace doesn't warrant a ban. The problem isn't Jace himself, it's the meta around him. It's painfully weak on basic utility cards that have been in 90% of Standard sets for a decade. In a Standard with the most basic removal tools (Doom Blade, Magma Spray, Lightning Strike), and mild graveyard hate (Rest in Peace) both the Delve mechanic and Jace get noticeably worse.
In short, there's no deck he's creating around himself that's taking 6/8 slots in tourneys, he's not causing attendance to drop (this crappy meta can do that fine on its own), and a Merfolk Looter to so-so planeswalker is not inherently broken of itself. There's nothing here that's ban-worthy. It's just a terrible card pool and maybe it gets better. Or it doesn't, and he still stays.
Small correction. KTK and Fate won't rotate out until after the first set of the next block comes out. Not Oath. So sometime in April-May.
On topic, I don't think they need to ban jace, or will.
The card that is Fear itself...
Fact is 6/8 decks at the last big GP had a playset of Jace. If every deck is a Jace deck where does that leave the metagame? Warped around needing to buy a $300+ USD playset of cards to be competitive? That's not only unhealthy for MTG but it's a hit of the reputation of WoTC to produce a balanced and fair standard format.
When Dark Jeskai plays 3 fetches in the first 3 turns with Jace on turn 2 I already know I can't win. They get to Crackling Doom me twice and then Dig Through Time while beating my face in with Mantis Rider. I just lose over and over. I'm playing Abzan aggro.
Should he be banned? Yes. Will he be banned? Probably not because WoTC don't want to devalue Origins packs and upset everybody that has already bought the card. We will just have to put up with 4 different flavors of Jace decks dominating until fetchlands and Dig go away and he doesn't produce so much of a broken advantage.
Not at all. Look at the decks that scored 24+ points in standard: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptbfz/24-27-point-standard-decklists-2015-10-18
We have 13 decks with no jace vs 7 Jace decks. And this is just standar, no draft mixed in. If you look at the meta breakdown from the GP, while the top 8 was jace, the top 32 had 14 non jace decks, and day 2 was even more filled with non jace decks. SCG opens are filled to the brim with den protectors.
And even if you did still believe Jace "warps the format", there are aggresive, midrange and control flavors of "jace decks". Dark jeskai can be very aggressive, Chapin tap out control is a control deck that can change gears and aggro you out turns 5-7 with Gideon emblem + secure the wastes, and Duke's control is old school control. Even withnthe "jace decks" there is flavor for everyone.
Sure, it sucks that a card is worth $80. But i think the whole "ban jace" hysteria is people that cant pay for it and if they can't have it they don't want anybody else to have it. Jace is not more oppresive than Sphinx's revelation was, or than Den protector-deathmist raptor package was, but nobody claimed those should be standard banned.
But regardless of price, he's definitely not worth a ban. He has great synergy with cards only playable because of the ridiculous manabases available and his reign will fall hard once the fetches are gone. Considering the dominance of green and Abzan the past year, having to put up with Siege Rhino, Thoughtseize, Elspeth, Courser, Abzan Charm, and then add the recurring Deathmist Raptor and recursion of ANY card with Den Protector... Yeah, I'm completely OK with Jace and blue decks getting back in the spotlight.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate