Innocent Blood is generally viewed as "too strong" for modern much less standard. If you want a black edict I suspect they will always stick to the 2-3 mana range as where it is acceptable moving forward. I honestly can not imagine a standard environment that it would not be considered too powerful for.
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I think they could definitely make a standard without this card being too strong. Just have some good token strategies and maybe a "can't be sacrificed" theme for a block and voila. The fact that it is both players does matter, for better or worse. Some strategies could even use the self edict.
Modern is a different story, but a sorcery speed sacrifice creature isn't really much better than bolt most of the time, unless you are playing midrange or ramp or something, but lets face it those decks could use a nerf.
Innocent Blood is generally viewed as "too strong" for modern much less standard. If you want a black edict I suspect they will always stick to the 2-3 mana range as where it is acceptable moving forward. I honestly can not imagine a standard environment that it would not be considered too powerful for.
about as likely to be reprinted as swords to plowshares
to answer the op question, it would completely ruin the standard meta
Thanks for the input guys (not just to the two I've quoted, but everyone in the thread). I'm not surprised that a lot of you feel it is too strong, but I am somewhat surprised that it is seen as so overpowered.
Who has said that it is too strong for Modern? I see it pop up in the "Wanted reprints" thread in the Modern forum from time to time, and it seems as if most folks over there would be happy to have it in the format, and I don't think I have seen a single person comment that it would be too strong for Modern.
And a comparison to Swords to plowshares also seems like hyperbole, although I now realise that what you meant may not have been that they are on a similar powerlevel, just that they are both too powerful for standard by enough of a margin that the chances of a reprint is zero. If so, that makes a lot more sense, but I'm still not sure if I agree.
I do belive edict effects will mostly be printed at 2-3 CMC (Foul-Tongue Invocation, Devour Flesh) going forward, but "mostly" doesn't rule out the odd expectation now, does it? And these edicts often have some small upside (also Tribute to Hunger, Geth's Verdict), while Innocent Blood has a rather severe downsides of being sorcery speed and making both players sacrifice a creature.
Of course, it has the giant upside of being a single mana, but still. In a creatureless deck, it is a sorcery that destroys your opponents worst creature for B. Would it be that much better than something like Dead Weight anyway?
while Innocent Blood has a rather severe downsides of being sorcery speed and making both players sacrifice a creature.
You can build your deck in such a way that sacrificing your own creature is an upside. Then this becomes a one mana edict with upside. (As a primitive example of this in standard, imagine the new Liliana that is about to print in Origins which turns into a planeswalker whenever something dies)
What? Wasn't MaRo quoted somewhere as saying that Innocent Blood is very well balanced and likely a safe reprint?
I don't see what is the problem, given that if you have any creatures, you have to sacrifice one too, and it's sorcery speed. It is strong, yes, but I'd say it's much less powerful than Thoughtseize, and probably similar in power to the likes of Victim of Night or Go for the Throat. I'm not even sure it's so much better than Bone Splinters as to justify the fear of it shown in this thread. Yes, it is very good removal as a black 1 cmc sorcery, but I don't see how it could be game breaking, even in a Standard with decent control, due to existence of flash and haste creatures in many aggro decks and it being sorcery speed.
It existing when control is strong isn't the potential problem with it, but it existing when tokens and/or aggro are weak.
keith-cancel asked: What do you think of the card innocent blood?
It’s a nice, clean, flavorful, elegant design
But he doesn't say anything about balance or power level here.
But surely, if the fear is some self-sac driven deck turning the sacrifice to an upside, then you have a point in that Bone Splinters didn't wreak anything?
I'm pretty sure both nice and elegant can imply balance and/or power level. There is also the fact that he didn't mention it being overpowered either and was full of compliments for it.
As far as sacrifice decks go, we've already got Exploit as a mechanic which, outside of Sidisi, Undead Vizier hasn't shown up much at all. If Wizards wanted to print the card I'm sure they could avoid making sacrifice based decks just... not a thing. It's not a staple archetype by any means.
As far as standard goes, it wouldn't be obscene. If it were in Modern, MBC might become a thing (control in general becomes better). Bone Splinters is kind of the fixed version since you cannot play a creatureless deck and get value. On the downside, it is not as multi-player friendly of a card as it doesn't scale for more players. It is a targetted removal spell with a drawback. Now technically, with Bitterblossom a card, the cost to the player of Bone Splinters is lessened.
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Bone splinters can't really be compared with the two. Its like comparing wrath of god with "Destroy all creatures if each player has at least one creature. They can't be regenerated". Also, bone splinter has the sac built into the cost leaving it more counter susceptible than innocent blood. Of course you could craft a fun standard that makes it fine, nor is it powerful like swords to plowshares. However, having a cmc 1 hard removal like that is a huge boon for control.
Bone Splinters was not brought up as a direct comparison of power, but to point out that if the fear was a deck that could turn the self-sacrifice into an advantage, then Bone splinters would already have been better in that deck.
Basically, can you make the following argument?
-In a fair deck that itself plays creatures, Innocent Blood is a fair edict due to sorcery speed and loss of your own creature.
-In a creatureless deck, Innocent Blood is a sorcery for B that reads: "Destroy your opponents weakest creature". In many cases Dead Weight would do the same job.
-In a deck that actively wants to turn the creature sacrifice to an advantage, Bone Splinters would be better. And it didn't wreck standard, nor it is an issue in Modern.
(I know the second point is weak, as Dead Weight is not guaranteed to actually get rid of anything and is a sad answer to a post-wrath large threat mid-game. But is that enough of an issue that the whole of the above argument looses its value and the conclusion is that Innocent Blood is mad power?)
I think we're mostly looking at the creatureless or almost no creature kind of decks that innocent blood would be used in and I do not believe that you could make the same argument for dead weight at all. Innocent blood is simply more flexible. Innocent blood does not target. It gets around various protections. It catches things that wipes might miss. And it is hard removal for 1 whereas dead weight is only for smaller things. In a world where everyone scaled up evenly in creature size, sure they might be comparable but that isn't the case. I don't think it is innocent blood's innate power to flip a game on its head but rather the flexibility. Having good cmc 1 hard removal with no real downside that also happens to be mainboard hate against certain decks as kudos seems very strong all around to me, improving aggro matchups just by being there while not being a dud against bigger things. I cannot say it would be snap bannable or anything but I do think it would be very strong and could potentially cause issues.
I would rather see Cruel edict or Diabolic edict but I don't think Innocent blood would hurt standard anymore than Thoughtseize. Is it some unwritten rule somewhere this day in age of magic that all 1 drop spells have to suck? Lightning bolt, Force Spike, all Opt type cards Creature removal and Thoughtseize are all thought to be to strong for standard.
Lightning bolt isn't too strong for standard. It often ends up there. It just so happens to have a tendency to warp it. Opt is not too strong for standard. They're more worried about it in modern, I think. However, I don't think seeing a serum visions reprint or something would cause problems. Force spike... Wizards has been hating on counters for a while, giving us even cmc 2 general counter somewhat sparingly.
I don't see how it is too powerful for either format. Is small pox considered broken when it was in standard?? I consider small pox stronger than innocent blood. Creatures are fine though...siege rhino, thragtusk. They seem to be pushing creature power level.
Innocent Blood is generally viewed as "too strong" for modern much less standard. If you want a black edict I suspect they will always stick to the 2-3 mana range as where it is acceptable moving forward. I honestly can not imagine a standard environment that it would not be considered too powerful for.
How is Innocent Blood too strong for Modern? I haven't heard anyone say that before.
Could it ever be a safe reprint? What kind of standard environment would it be OK in?
Would a printing in the last year or so have been one of the better spots for it, with all the tokens?
Not sure if this is the correct place for this thread. I'd appreciate it if it belongs elsewhere, that it was moved there by an admirable mod.
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to answer the op question, it would completely ruin the standard meta
Modern is a different story, but a sorcery speed sacrifice creature isn't really much better than bolt most of the time, unless you are playing midrange or ramp or something, but lets face it those decks could use a nerf.
Thanks for the input guys (not just to the two I've quoted, but everyone in the thread). I'm not surprised that a lot of you feel it is too strong, but I am somewhat surprised that it is seen as so overpowered.
Who has said that it is too strong for Modern? I see it pop up in the "Wanted reprints" thread in the Modern forum from time to time, and it seems as if most folks over there would be happy to have it in the format, and I don't think I have seen a single person comment that it would be too strong for Modern.
And a comparison to Swords to plowshares also seems like hyperbole, although I now realise that what you meant may not have been that they are on a similar powerlevel, just that they are both too powerful for standard by enough of a margin that the chances of a reprint is zero. If so, that makes a lot more sense, but I'm still not sure if I agree.
I do belive edict effects will mostly be printed at 2-3 CMC (Foul-Tongue Invocation, Devour Flesh) going forward, but "mostly" doesn't rule out the odd expectation now, does it? And these edicts often have some small upside (also Tribute to Hunger, Geth's Verdict), while Innocent Blood has a rather severe downsides of being sorcery speed and making both players sacrifice a creature.
Of course, it has the giant upside of being a single mana, but still. In a creatureless deck, it is a sorcery that destroys your opponents worst creature for B. Would it be that much better than something like Dead Weight anyway?
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You can build your deck in such a way that sacrificing your own creature is an upside. Then this becomes a one mana edict with upside. (As a primitive example of this in standard, imagine the new Liliana that is about to print in Origins which turns into a planeswalker whenever something dies)
I don't see what is the problem, given that if you have any creatures, you have to sacrifice one too, and it's sorcery speed. It is strong, yes, but I'd say it's much less powerful than Thoughtseize, and probably similar in power to the likes of Victim of Night or Go for the Throat. I'm not even sure it's so much better than Bone Splinters as to justify the fear of it shown in this thread. Yes, it is very good removal as a black 1 cmc sorcery, but I don't see how it could be game breaking, even in a Standard with decent control, due to existence of flash and haste creatures in many aggro decks and it being sorcery speed.
It existing when control is strong isn't the potential problem with it, but it existing when tokens and/or aggro are weak.
With cards like Raise the Alarm and Monastery Swiftspear running around, I'm pretty sure Innocent Blood is fine.
But he doesn't say anything about balance or power level here.
But surely, if the fear is some self-sac driven deck turning the sacrifice to an upside, then you have a point in that Bone Splinters didn't wreak anything?
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Basically, can you make the following argument?
-In a fair deck that itself plays creatures, Innocent Blood is a fair edict due to sorcery speed and loss of your own creature.
-In a creatureless deck, Innocent Blood is a sorcery for B that reads: "Destroy your opponents weakest creature". In many cases Dead Weight would do the same job.
-In a deck that actively wants to turn the creature sacrifice to an advantage, Bone Splinters would be better. And it didn't wreck standard, nor it is an issue in Modern.
(I know the second point is weak, as Dead Weight is not guaranteed to actually get rid of anything and is a sad answer to a post-wrath large threat mid-game. But is that enough of an issue that the whole of the above argument looses its value and the conclusion is that Innocent Blood is mad power?)
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How is Innocent Blood too strong for Modern? I haven't heard anyone say that before.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.