well, the WC dealer incident demostrate that he is a shady player, so i am not surprised that he is DQ, hell even if he is ever banned in the future i will not be surprised.
Isn't the fact that everyone knows which card it is, cards weren't shuffled, relevant?
Not really, since the definition of a card going into the hand is the card touching the other cards in your hand, regardless of if you're holding them or they're face down on the table. Sucks when it happens, since it takes away from good games, but it is the correct ruling.
Does this same rule apply when someone was hell bent prior to drawing the card?
Isn't the fact that everyone knows which card it is, cards weren't shuffled, relevant?
Not really, since the definition of a card going into the hand is the card touching the other cards in your hand, regardless of if you're holding them or they're face down on the table. Sucks when it happens, since it takes away from good games, but it is the correct ruling.
Does this same rule apply when someone was hell bent prior to drawing the card?
It's repairable if you were hellbent or the entire contents of your hand were public knowledge due to something like a Thoughtseize.
Isn't the fact that everyone knows which card it is, cards weren't shuffled, relevant?
Not really, since the definition of a card going into the hand is the card touching the other cards in your hand, regardless of if you're holding them or they're face down on the table. Sucks when it happens, since it takes away from good games, but it is the correct ruling.
Does this same rule apply when someone was hell bent prior to drawing the card?
It's repairable if you were hellbent or the entire contents of your hand were public knowledge due to something like a Thoughtseize.
Is this a rule that need updating or is it OK as it currently stands.
In the case of chapin, I think the ruling Was correct however unfortunate, earlier in the same match/game chapin resolved a Read the Bones much the same way and put them to hand without reveal (with courser in play) and stated 'I'm taking these' and then revealed the cards...I know they were hastily playing due to trying to get the game complete before timing and st the urging of judges, but I believe even chapin would state he needed to be clearer in his actions.
While it may seem stupid to ignore evidence that proves he didn't mess up that turn, there is also evidence that he played two lands earlier in the match that is ignored if missed initially as well. In any competitive REL event this is a game loss for failing to reveal the card. Playing at this high of level on a PTQ there shouldn't be this many mistakes in a match and expect not to be punished for it.
It just shows how poor the judges really are and how bad coverage really is. They miss a player playing two lands on a single turn. The judges and commentators miss one of the most basic rules being violated. Chapin and his opponent have the excuse of missing it in that they are rushing through extra turns in an on-camera Pro Tour match. You could see that the players were literally rushing their plays physically. So there is great pressure on both of them to play hurriedly and makes mistakes. The commentators and judges have the luxury of not being in a high pressure playing situation. But keep in mind that this is Wizards commentary, where the commentators often aren't even familiar with format staple cards. So expecting them to pay attention to the match is probably unrealistic.
As for the whole Chapin thing, I understand how he made the mistake, i.e., the board was pretty full, he was putting the other cards off the Ajani to the bottom and just misplaced the Tasigur on top of his hand, but the real problem is how coverage handled it. Between not cutting out and having Buehler say that Chapin is trying to wiggle out of it, total buffoonery, which I guess is what you expect from WOTC coverage.
It's not just the commentators' fault it is also Wizards idiot producers who refused to cut to literally anything else. A Deck Tech, an interview, standings, behind the scenes? They literally could have cut to anything and it would have been better than seeing a Pro Tour Hall-of-Fame player arguing rules semantics and information with an obviously flustered judge. The announcers didn't go into the Pro Tour thinking that they'd be doing ten minutes on a judge ruling. But the producers essentially forced their hands by putting ten minutes of a Hall of Fame player and a top Judge on camera arguing over rules.
Should the NFL not be allowed to use goal line technology because that would be unfair to the college that doesn't have video coverage?
Fact is, the coverage area IS different, it has more judges, is viewed by more people and the technology is available to be used in the interests of those competing and us as viewers.
It's astounding that we can use video replays to punish cheaters but not to recreate boardstates to help those players who are in turn being punished for otherwise clumsy wordings and rules implementations.
It makes ZERO sense. And Wizards HAS used video coverage to rewind games to a legal board state or clear up play issues before on Pro Tours. They did it in 2012 for a Pro Tour because they had video coverage and overrode their own rules. And they've done it other times as well. Listen to the Judge's explanation and then imagine he was trying to explain why video wasn't used in this case with Chapin.
Coverage attempts to build storylines throughout an event. It is much easier to build a storyline with faces that viewers recognize.
I think the problem is that Ascendancy interactions would surpass their coverage capabilities and that they wouldn't be able to recognize the cards that a mono-red deck plays, making it very difficult for them to justify putting those decks on camera.
The coverage should focus on the cards and the decks. Not the players. Top players play boring awful decks. They are there to WIN and not there to entertain anyone. They team up and swarm a Pro Tour with the same exact deck. 25 players all on Abzan Midrange or Ascendancy Combo. Day one should feature rogue and unusual decks. Day two can have the undefeated players and famous players.
The coverage should focus on the cards and the decks. Not the players. Top players play boring awful decks. They are there to WIN and not there to entertain anyone. They team up and swarm a Pro Tour with the same exact deck. 25 players all on Abzan Midrange or Ascendancy Combo. Day one should feature rogue and unusual decks. Day two can have the undefeated players and famous players.
This is complete nonsense. Every player who makes it to the PT is a highly competent and competitive person. EVERY SINGLE player is there to take down the whole thing. If anything, the pro players are more innovative with their deck choices since they actually have the resources to come up with new archetypes or twists to established archetypes. The average PT goer is way more likely to pick an existing deck.
Did Chapin really play two lands in one turn in that game? Is that video still available?
He forgot to scry off of his Read the Bones and seems to play the second land trying to make up for that mistake while being rushed and in a hurry to finish the match. The fact that he messed up resolving his own spell downplays in my opinion the fact that he then messes up and plays a second land. Obviously, he is rushed and something is off with him. http://imgur.com/8M6wn4e
Wow, I missed that when watching the match. He can hardly complain about a game loss with that in the mix.
I mean, playing an extra land if noticed and remedied isn't a game loss, it's a warning. I think he would prefer that to his game loss.
While I think that the judge made the right call, I'm always slightly annoyed when the player on the other end of the interaction is more interested in making sure his opponent gets a game loss than whether the "right thing" is done or not. It was very clear when I first saw it "pseudo-live" (on the replay but before I knew there had been an issue) that he didn't shuffle his hand around after picking it up and then realizing he had to reveal. I know there's money on the line and stuff, but meh. I wouldn't love to take a win that way, let alone fight for it.
Wow, I missed that when watching the match. He can hardly complain about a game loss with that in the mix.
I mean, playing an extra land if noticed and remedied isn't a game loss, it's a warning. I think he would prefer that to his game loss.
While I think that the judge made the right call, I'm always slightly annoyed when the player on the other end of the interaction is more interested in making sure his opponent gets a game loss than whether the "right thing" is done or not. It was very clear when I first saw it "pseudo-live" (on the replay but before I knew there had been an issue) that he didn't shuffle his hand around after picking it up and then realizing he had to reveal. I know there's money on the line and stuff, but meh. I wouldn't love to take a win that way, let alone fight for it.
Yeah, I didn't recognize that guy, but he did get awkwardly indignant when Chapin said that what was in his hand was known to both players. Especially when he had the game what looked to be locked and Chapin pulled himself back into it, it was kinda gross how hard he was fighting for Chapin to get a game loss.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Ive seen alot of dirty magic being played in this pro tour. A recent match, courser in play, read the bones was cast and both cards were drawn, but the second card, an utter end, was not revealed to the opponent. Also, Nissa starts with four loyalty counters and goes up to five, right?
Ive seen alot of dirty magic being played in this pro tour. A recent match, courser in play, read the bones was cast and both cards were drawn, but the second card, an utter end, was not revealed to the opponent. Also, Nissa starts with four loyalty counters and goes up to five, right?
To be fair, sometimes it's easy to slip up and forget to reveal when you draw with Courser, since it's not something you naturally do.
Ive seen alot of dirty magic being played in this pro tour. A recent match, courser in play, read the bones was cast and both cards were drawn, but the second card, an utter end, was not revealed to the opponent. Also, Nissa starts with four loyalty counters and goes up to five, right?
To be fair, sometimes it's easy to slip up and forget to reveal when you draw with Courser, since it's not something you naturally do.
I generally lean towards just thinking "it's a hard game, even when you're really good at it" in these situations. With a dozen things to think about, a lot at stake, and tough opponents, people are going to make mistakes. And it's pretty obvious that cheating on-camera at a PT is not a high-EV play.
man, this PT is insanely boring. the commentary is mediocre as hell, and the production quality is super shoddy. I don't particularly like SCG but their coverage at least doesn't make me drowsy.
I keep trying to watch it but then I get bored after a couple of minutes.
Wow, a guy being rules-lawyered out of a win is exactly the kind of advertising Wizards wants for their premiere promotional tournaments!
No, someone who drew an extra card (with or without intent) is being handed a game-loss because he's being held to the same rules as everyone else. How close or far someone is "to a win" should have absolutely no bearing on the ruling. I stand by the judge's decision personally.
Pretty much this. I have nothing against Chapin trying to find a means to get a favorable ruling there at all, as it's his right to do. But the judge ruled appropriately given the rules as they are. It sucks for Chapin, and I can certainly see where he was coming from as he made some rather valid points. But ultimately, the head judge made the point that he has to rule with the rules as they currently are written, and the rules are clear on that.
What this thing did highlight, in my opinion, is that the coverage team, and Randy Buehler in particular, is pretty distasteful and disrespectful to players. This isn't the first time I've seen a condescending attitude come from Buehler towards players in the Pro Tour, and I personally think things need to be changed significantly on that front.
Somebody was also doing some "Bloom in lap" shenanigan. I think cheating has always been a problem but with the revelation of Alex B and Edgar Flores we are just better at catching it.
So many complaints about Adrain sulluvans choice in card placement. why does it matter?.. I don't get it. people playing lands in front doesn't faze me, people playing thier cards upside down doesn't bother me... white boarders nope don't care.
Seriously why does this bug people so much?, I am really confused.
Edit: Eric froelich drowns in a flood :S that was painful for him.
Adrian Sullivan's build of UB Control coming out of PT KTK endeared me to the archetype, and I've been playing the deck since then (not exclusively but regularly). I think he's been rightfully conservative adding new cards into the deck. I'm very happy to see him bound for the top 8; I'll be rooting for him to take this PT down.
Lands in front is one of those things that's just really unintuitive. The cards you want to read are most definitely not your opponents lands, its the creatures/artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers. Putting those behind the lands just makes it a lot more aggravating to have to try and read.
Isn't the fact that everyone knows which card it is, cards weren't shuffled, relevant?
Not really, since the definition of a card going into the hand is the card touching the other cards in your hand, regardless of if you're holding them or they're face down on the table. Sucks when it happens, since it takes away from good games, but it is the correct ruling.
Does this same rule apply when someone was hell bent prior to drawing the card?
It's repairable if you were hellbent or the entire contents of your hand were public knowledge due to something like a Thoughtseize.
That is an issue imo. That can create different rulings in situations that are very similar. What is the difference between drawing/not reveling when hell bent or laying a card down that touched but can be pointed to exactly that card. Also, no video review is beyond dumb. The point of judges and judge calls is to keep the game as honest as possible. The point of not treating that area differently is complete crap too. They already have at least one if not more judges in the area which is different then the rest of the playing area.
I remember his opponent not commenting on the card except they touched. He seemed very keen on not wanting to discuss that point until he was almost forced. Does anyone remember if he could have know what the cards were? He did flat out say he couldn't know those cards.
well, the WC dealer incident demostrate that he is a shady player, so i am not surprised that he is DQ, hell even if he is ever banned in the future i will not be surprised.
Does this same rule apply when someone was hell bent prior to drawing the card?
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
It's repairable if you were hellbent or the entire contents of your hand were public knowledge due to something like a Thoughtseize.
Is this a rule that need updating or is it OK as it currently stands.
In the case of chapin, I think the ruling Was correct however unfortunate, earlier in the same match/game chapin resolved a Read the Bones much the same way and put them to hand without reveal (with courser in play) and stated 'I'm taking these' and then revealed the cards...I know they were hastily playing due to trying to get the game complete before timing and st the urging of judges, but I believe even chapin would state he needed to be clearer in his actions.
It just shows how poor the judges really are and how bad coverage really is. They miss a player playing two lands on a single turn. The judges and commentators miss one of the most basic rules being violated. Chapin and his opponent have the excuse of missing it in that they are rushing through extra turns in an on-camera Pro Tour match. You could see that the players were literally rushing their plays physically. So there is great pressure on both of them to play hurriedly and makes mistakes. The commentators and judges have the luxury of not being in a high pressure playing situation. But keep in mind that this is Wizards commentary, where the commentators often aren't even familiar with format staple cards. So expecting them to pay attention to the match is probably unrealistic.
It's not just the commentators' fault it is also Wizards idiot producers who refused to cut to literally anything else. A Deck Tech, an interview, standings, behind the scenes? They literally could have cut to anything and it would have been better than seeing a Pro Tour Hall-of-Fame player arguing rules semantics and information with an obviously flustered judge. The announcers didn't go into the Pro Tour thinking that they'd be doing ten minutes on a judge ruling. But the producers essentially forced their hands by putting ten minutes of a Hall of Fame player and a top Judge on camera arguing over rules.
It makes ZERO sense. And Wizards HAS used video coverage to rewind games to a legal board state or clear up play issues before on Pro Tours. They did it in 2012 for a Pro Tour because they had video coverage and overrode their own rules. And they've done it other times as well. Listen to the Judge's explanation and then imagine he was trying to explain why video wasn't used in this case with Chapin.
https://youtu.be/jedseuxEvxk?t=41m11s
The coverage should focus on the cards and the decks. Not the players. Top players play boring awful decks. They are there to WIN and not there to entertain anyone. They team up and swarm a Pro Tour with the same exact deck. 25 players all on Abzan Midrange or Ascendancy Combo. Day one should feature rogue and unusual decks. Day two can have the undefeated players and famous players.
This is complete nonsense. Every player who makes it to the PT is a highly competent and competitive person. EVERY SINGLE player is there to take down the whole thing. If anything, the pro players are more innovative with their deck choices since they actually have the resources to come up with new archetypes or twists to established archetypes. The average PT goer is way more likely to pick an existing deck.
Youtube Channel
As for decklists, Evan Erwin posted the Strength from the Fallen list on SCG: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82398
I mean, playing an extra land if noticed and remedied isn't a game loss, it's a warning. I think he would prefer that to his game loss.
While I think that the judge made the right call, I'm always slightly annoyed when the player on the other end of the interaction is more interested in making sure his opponent gets a game loss than whether the "right thing" is done or not. It was very clear when I first saw it "pseudo-live" (on the replay but before I knew there had been an issue) that he didn't shuffle his hand around after picking it up and then realizing he had to reveal. I know there's money on the line and stuff, but meh. I wouldn't love to take a win that way, let alone fight for it.
All the 6-4 or better lists get published at the end of day 2.
http://imgur.com/a/FfazV
-Jaya Ballard, task mage
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
To be fair, sometimes it's easy to slip up and forget to reveal when you draw with Courser, since it's not something you naturally do.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I generally lean towards just thinking "it's a hard game, even when you're really good at it" in these situations. With a dozen things to think about, a lot at stake, and tough opponents, people are going to make mistakes. And it's pretty obvious that cheating on-camera at a PT is not a high-EV play.
I keep trying to watch it but then I get bored after a couple of minutes.
Pretty much this. I have nothing against Chapin trying to find a means to get a favorable ruling there at all, as it's his right to do. But the judge ruled appropriately given the rules as they are. It sucks for Chapin, and I can certainly see where he was coming from as he made some rather valid points. But ultimately, the head judge made the point that he has to rule with the rules as they currently are written, and the rules are clear on that.
What this thing did highlight, in my opinion, is that the coverage team, and Randy Buehler in particular, is pretty distasteful and disrespectful to players. This isn't the first time I've seen a condescending attitude come from Buehler towards players in the Pro Tour, and I personally think things need to be changed significantly on that front.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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So many complaints about Adrain sulluvans choice in card placement. why does it matter?.. I don't get it. people playing lands in front doesn't faze me, people playing thier cards upside down doesn't bother me... white boarders nope don't care.
Seriously why does this bug people so much?, I am really confused.
Edit: Eric froelich drowns in a flood :S that was painful for him.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
That is an issue imo. That can create different rulings in situations that are very similar. What is the difference between drawing/not reveling when hell bent or laying a card down that touched but can be pointed to exactly that card. Also, no video review is beyond dumb. The point of judges and judge calls is to keep the game as honest as possible. The point of not treating that area differently is complete crap too. They already have at least one if not more judges in the area which is different then the rest of the playing area.
I remember his opponent not commenting on the card except they touched. He seemed very keen on not wanting to discuss that point until he was almost forced. Does anyone remember if he could have know what the cards were? He did flat out say he couldn't know those cards.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens