I feel like everyone is just ignoring all comments prior to their own. We know Narset isn't great in control. [b]She's great in a Jeskai.[/b]
Any you came to this conclusion how exactly?
I'm inclined to agree with you but fact is, Narset is even more unproven in that archetype than she is in Control.
You're welcome to try her in that archetype. The fact is that just cause the pros haven't stuck her in Jeskai doesn't make her unproven.
The fact that she's had absolutely no success in standard kind of does make her unproven. That's what unproven means, you haven't been proved yet. If you've done nothing of note, then you are unproven.
She's proved herself to me. The fact she hasn't to you just tells me you are not a creative person nor have the capacity to create a working deck. I don't need the "pro's" to tell me what to play and I don't need this assult because you only do what the pro's say.
Between the Pro Tour and GP Krakow and two SCG opens there has been plenty of time for brewers to show what's possible with her. Guess what they haven't come up with anything competitive. We're not looking for a high bar here. Maybe post a 4-0 deck from a MTGO standard daily? I don't know if the card will break out at some time but right now it hasn't. Time will tell but it's not looking good atm.
She's proved herself to me. The fact she hasn't to you just tells me you are not a creative person nor have the capacity to create a working deck. I don't need the "pro's" to tell me what to play and I don't need this assult because you only do what the pro's say.
Just because Narset did some work in your personal playgroup does not count as objective evidence for her being good. We need results. Plus, why bother trying to brew something with a failing stock when you could be good at playing/tuning Abzan instead?
She's going to plummet hard if nobody finds good use for her. The fact that she's seeing little to no competitive play in standard is a bad sign for her being played in the eternal formats. So glad I didn't jump on the hype train for this one. While slowly falling, her current price tag is still a joke.
It counts as objective evidence to me and that evidence has shaped my opinion on her. Brewing and testing is what shapes my opinions on cards. Even if the deck turns out to be a flop against half the meta. It grants me insights.
There is nothing objective about it. Subjective on the other hand. Your opinion is by definition subjective. Personal playtests are just not a large enough sample size for objectivity.
Considering, in my playgroup, it is a fact based upon testing and playing; makes it objective, because there's facts to back it, to me. Subjective to you since you've yet to try her in anything else. Based upon sample size, I've supplied 3 different links where Jeskai Tokens with Narset made a good/great showing.
It's perfectly acceptable for you to be stuck in your ways. To follow the pro herd like a good little sheep. Just because it's only 'okay' in Esper where it saw play by the pros does, by no means, make the card bad. Just that it hasn't seen play in the right deck at the top tables.
I don't particularly care what the pros think, but SCG opens are generally a more Wild West atmosphere where odd brews show up. That it hasn't shown up at all there in multiple opens shows that something is lacking. I agree that the pro tour/Krakow isn't enough, but SCG has had several weeks to show decks that use her well and so far unproven is about the best way to put it.
It counts as objective evidence to me and that evidence has shaped my opinion on her. Brewing and testing is what shapes my opinions on cards. Even if the deck turns out to be a flop against half the meta. It grants me insights.
Narset Transcendent is an extremely powerful card. The problem she has right now is finding a home because while she is a great card in a lot of match ups, the decks that would like to run her don't need her.
In Esper control, she hoses midrange. Esper control hoses midrange without Narset. She's frequently a win more card. Yes, you will lose games without her that you would probably win otherwise.
Vs mono-red, she's frequently very good. Sometimes she's not especially on the draw. Esper without Narset performs OK against mono-red and very good after board.
Vs Abzan aggro, she's not all that great.
Vs UBx control mirror, I personally don't like her. I think she's a dangerous play route a lot of the time. I see little value in her -2 most games. I would rather be able to run other cards and Haven of the Spirit Dragon hands down.
Vs Abzan control, she's really good.
Dragonlord Ojutai is pretty much epic in all match ups. You end up coming out way ahead by running cards that make the world a better place for Ojutai. If you drop Narset, your mana base gets a whole lot better even running 2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon. This standard's mana base is has been just horrific. That really hurts her when we have an powerful utility land in the format. If Ojutai wasn't so good in the deck, we'd probably see more of her.
The history of MTG is filled with good / powerful cards that never found a home. Narset Transcendent has a lot of life left in her, but for the moment, she doesn't have a deck to fit into well. I'm sure she will before she rotates out. I feel pretty confident that, at some point (based solely on the fact that she scales with newly printed cards), she'll see play in eternal formats. For now, she simply doesn't play well with what we've got to work with.
Between Dissolve and 10-12 scry lands, there's plenty of ways to peek at your top card.
Exactly. And when I said 75%, I wasn't being exact. I meant that I hit way more than I miss. I get that some people don't like in control, but to say it like it's fact I can't abide. To each his own, but I love her in my Esper deck.
Oh I definitely think she's underrated right now. But that's the joy of the currently extremely healthy meta - there are sleepers everywhere. 75% just sounded a bit much. I have exactly 30 spells in my deck she can hit and it's killer.
It's not as illustrious as a PT or a World Championships for sure. However, just because it's 'no name' players doesn't mean they're playing 'no name' decks. Hell, I'd go as far as to say they quality of decks is near the same. The only difference being players. I know this much, no matter what I play, I doubt I'd be able to get 2nd out of 500+ people.
MTGO card prices are a good indicator of what competitive players think of a card, as there's very little non-competitive demand on the platform.
Narset has already fallen to be just over a quarter of the price of Ojutai, and is a distant #4 in the set (well behind the big three, Ojutai, Deathmist Raptor and Silumgar, all mythics with considerable proven tournament success).
I think Narset will find a home, but not as a ubiquitously played 3-4 of. Instead she'll be a sideboard 1-2 of that might make some maindecks.
just to put it out there, it seems that the pros tend to agree with my evaluation from the other day that Narset is Win-More and not really contributing to whether you actually win or lose... just how much you win or lose by.
Duke is speaking strictly of her inclusion into Esper control, for the record.
My arguement is that in a deck like Jeskai Tokens, she wins more games; not wins games more. She plays out on curve, doubles your token producers/burn which gives you additional Ascendency triggers, draws you extra cards and can shut down control.
I'm not arguing against combo but that's not what we're discussing here is it. We're discussing how good Ral Zarek is, because he can twiddle, how powerful Ashiok is, because of his immensely broken albeit delayed ability to put your opponents creatures into play. We are talking about how good Narset is, because you can copy spells a turn later, many of those spells biggest advantages being the fact that they previously didn't have to tie up your main phase and were instants.
"You don't just play her turn 4"
"Wait to play her until you can Dig or Anticipate/Price etc to get more value!"
"What, you don't think copying [insert spell here] is powerful?"
"You practically get to cast free spells!"
Narset is powerful because you can rebound a Dig through Time? Dig through Time is so powerful that I'd be willing to play Narset just to cast it twice.
There's no Strawman there. In a control deck, your win cons are almost ALWAYS cast off curve and in conjunction with other cards (at least in hand). Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Ætherling are absolutely not 6 drops in 99.99% of the time in a control deck.
You know which cards ARE widely agreed as being good? Elspeth, Sarkhan, Sorin, Nissa. All these cards are capable of directly impacting the board the turn you cast them, regardless of curve or your board state or whatever cards you might or might not have in your hand. There are frequently cards that a weak in a vacuum that are very powerful in the correct deck.
All that said, I do agree largely with your opinion of those quotes. I frequently play her turn 4. I don't think waiting until you can rebound a great card is frequently the right play. You definitely can't reduce her to a one trick pony by talking about rebounding [insert spell here] is powerful. I think the last is an indicator of why she's weak in a control mirror. I see minimal value from her -2 and going all in on an ult to win a control match up is not something I feel comfortable with. She is at her best when the -2 can produce good or better value from a large number of cards. This is why Narset Esper has such a good track record against mono-red. Unless a card says "Counter target spell" (and even then if it is Ojutai's Command), it's probably a good rebound target.
Additionally, every single walker you named is a win con walker. She's not a win con walker. Narset Transcendent is support walker. She's much more like Jace, Architect of Thought in this respect. He was played primarily for his -2 and for his ult late game. I guess his +1 technically impacts the board state. He wasn't played for it though. Anytime the +1 was relevant, the -2 was more relevant to dig for a Supreme Verdict.
I feel like everyone is just ignoring all comments prior to their own. We know Narset isn't great in control. [b]She's great in a Jeskai.[/b]
Any you came to this conclusion how exactly?
I'm inclined to agree with you but fact is, Narset is even more unproven in that archetype than she is in Control.
Because the deck is incredibly creature light (running maybe 4 tops) meaning Narset's +1 is highly likely to be a hit, as well as her -2 actively improving their game plan every time with a combination of guaranteed Ascendancy triggers and more dudes/burn. Mind you I'm talking specifically about tokens, not aggro or midrange or anything else, but I assume you know that because you probably read the posts made prior to your own
She's not seeing the play in Tokens that you might expect is almost certainly due to to the fact that she competes with Outpost Siege. It has a card advantage mode and a sometimes very important mode that deals damage when creatures leave play that can result in a win the moment it hits board. You don't want to tap out for her on turn 4. In tokens, you are usually looking for explosive plays around turn 4. If you don't have it, Outpost Siege is arguably a better card for the long haul games. Getting gas is more important and Outpost Siege clears your deck better by being able to get past lands.
I still don't understand why some people think she's at her best in the control match up and of limited use in aggro / midrange match ups. On the play, she is just absolutely devastating against them. In the control mirror, Narset Transcendent, while a powerful win con, is also one of your most fragile win cons (win con in that ulting is for all practical purposes game ending). Only Dragonlord Silumgar is more vulnerable in the mirror.
The reason you would run Narset though is for the -2. The card advantage is just a nice little add-on for when you don't have any good cards to be -2ing for or when she's running low on loyalty and needs a top-up. I feel like a 1/2 or 2/2 split (going either way, based on personal preference) between the two cards could be a reasonable call. I intend on testing her and Myth Realized in Jeskai Tokens soonish, after I finish tuning my current Jeskai midrange deck.
Duke is speaking strictly of her inclusion into Esper control, for the record.
My arguement is that in a deck like Jeskai Tokens, she wins more games; not wins games more. She plays out on curve, doubles your token producers/burn which gives you additional Ascendency triggers, draws you extra cards and can shut down control.
yeah he's also saying interpret the signs was a win more card which couldn't be more false
You can opt to remain blissfully ignorant of the facts here if you want, but his argument works for the scenario you refer to as well. The point he makes is that in any scenario, using the magical Christmas tree land example of rebounding a Dig Through time as an example, Narset is only expanding on cards that either win or lose on their own merit and doesn't contribute to the game state herself. This means that no matter what deck you argue for or how powerful the interaction may look, there's nothing you get from Narset that would improve your win % better than just running more threats, removal or more consistent draw spells in her place. The deck doesn't matter, she durdles too much and provides too little afterwards to make an impact on the game.
yeah he's also saying interpret the signs was a win more card which couldn't be more false
Yeah definitely not a winmore card. It's a losemore card.
For those who don't seem to be familiar with the term "Win-More", it refers to cards that let you "Win by More", not cards that help you win more games. Often people end up focusing on these cards and losing more games (as Reid Duke points out and many others have pointed out in the past). Interpret is a good example of this because a 6-mana sorcery draw spell isn't going to help you win more games, but in a game you're already winning, being able to scry and draw 4+ cards can turn a win into a blowout. Narset is also exactly like that. She can determine how much you win by, but she's not going to help you win more games.
The only reason Interpret the Signs saw any play was because the UBx decks had only Dig an Ingenuity as card draw, an Prerogative hadn't been printed yet. They needed a "Big" Sphinx's Rev type of draw spell in their lists.
Interpret the Signs is a bad card, but it served a function in those decks and did it better than any other card in the standard card pool (at the time.) Bad cards can be run, so long as they serve their function better than any other card available and that function was necessary.
I still don't understand why Sullivan insisted on having it in his SB though, surely anything would have been better?
We all have our pet cards. Interpret wasn't even a consideration in most standard lists. Sullivan was pretty alone in championing the card, much like Gerrard's Rakshaha's Secret in his early Sultai builds.
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We all have our pet cards. Interpret wasn't even a consideration in most standard lists. Sullivan was pretty alone in championing the card, much like Gerrard's Rakshaha's Secret in his early Sultai builds.
I suppose so.
I had Interpret as a one of Pre-DTK but I simply made a swap from ItS to DP since I felt a guaranteed draw 4 as better than Scry 3 and maybe draw more than 4 cards. DP served the same function that I wanted out of ItS, so it was a simple exchange.
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The fact that she's had absolutely no success in standard kind of does make her unproven. That's what unproven means, you haven't been proved yet. If you've done nothing of note, then you are unproven.
Just because Narset did some work in your personal playgroup does not count as objective evidence for her being good. We need results. Plus, why bother trying to brew something with a failing stock when you could be good at playing/tuning Abzan instead?
While the list can be tuned better, it made top64:
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/217753
Here's one that got 41st:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81949
Here is a 2nd Place at States:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82924
It's perfectly acceptable for you to be stuck in your ways. To follow the pro herd like a good little sheep. Just because it's only 'okay' in Esper where it saw play by the pros does, by no means, make the card bad. Just that it hasn't seen play in the right deck at the top tables.
She's placed first in a few States.
Narset Transcendent is an extremely powerful card. The problem she has right now is finding a home because while she is a great card in a lot of match ups, the decks that would like to run her don't need her.
In Esper control, she hoses midrange. Esper control hoses midrange without Narset. She's frequently a win more card. Yes, you will lose games without her that you would probably win otherwise.
Vs mono-red, she's frequently very good. Sometimes she's not especially on the draw. Esper without Narset performs OK against mono-red and very good after board.
Vs Abzan aggro, she's not all that great.
Vs UBx control mirror, I personally don't like her. I think she's a dangerous play route a lot of the time. I see little value in her -2 most games. I would rather be able to run other cards and Haven of the Spirit Dragon hands down.
Vs Abzan control, she's really good.
Dragonlord Ojutai is pretty much epic in all match ups. You end up coming out way ahead by running cards that make the world a better place for Ojutai. If you drop Narset, your mana base gets a whole lot better even running 2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon. This standard's mana base is has been just horrific. That really hurts her when we have an powerful utility land in the format. If Ojutai wasn't so good in the deck, we'd probably see more of her.
The history of MTG is filled with good / powerful cards that never found a home. Narset Transcendent has a lot of life left in her, but for the moment, she doesn't have a deck to fit into well. I'm sure she will before she rotates out. I feel pretty confident that, at some point (based solely on the fact that she scales with newly printed cards), she'll see play in eternal formats. For now, she simply doesn't play well with what we've got to work with.
However, Imo sarkhan is just straight up not good. I've never been a fan of the khans one.
Oh I definitely think she's underrated right now. But that's the joy of the currently extremely healthy meta - there are sleepers everywhere. 75% just sounded a bit much. I have exactly 30 spells in my deck she can hit and it's killer.
Narset has already fallen to be just over a quarter of the price of Ojutai, and is a distant #4 in the set (well behind the big three, Ojutai, Deathmist Raptor and Silumgar, all mythics with considerable proven tournament success).
I think Narset will find a home, but not as a ubiquitously played 3-4 of. Instead she'll be a sideboard 1-2 of that might make some maindecks.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/winning-less-trying-win-more-2015-04-20
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
My arguement is that in a deck like Jeskai Tokens, she wins more games; not wins games more. She plays out on curve, doubles your token producers/burn which gives you additional Ascendency triggers, draws you extra cards and can shut down control.
The reason you would run Narset though is for the -2. The card advantage is just a nice little add-on for when you don't have any good cards to be -2ing for or when she's running low on loyalty and needs a top-up. I feel like a 1/2 or 2/2 split (going either way, based on personal preference) between the two cards could be a reasonable call. I intend on testing her and Myth Realized in Jeskai Tokens soonish, after I finish tuning my current Jeskai midrange deck.
Yeah definitely not a winmore card. It's a losemore card.
You can opt to remain blissfully ignorant of the facts here if you want, but his argument works for the scenario you refer to as well. The point he makes is that in any scenario, using the magical Christmas tree land example of rebounding a Dig Through time as an example, Narset is only expanding on cards that either win or lose on their own merit and doesn't contribute to the game state herself. This means that no matter what deck you argue for or how powerful the interaction may look, there's nothing you get from Narset that would improve your win % better than just running more threats, removal or more consistent draw spells in her place. The deck doesn't matter, she durdles too much and provides too little afterwards to make an impact on the game.
For those who don't seem to be familiar with the term "Win-More", it refers to cards that let you "Win by More", not cards that help you win more games. Often people end up focusing on these cards and losing more games (as Reid Duke points out and many others have pointed out in the past). Interpret is a good example of this because a 6-mana sorcery draw spell isn't going to help you win more games, but in a game you're already winning, being able to scry and draw 4+ cards can turn a win into a blowout. Narset is also exactly like that. She can determine how much you win by, but she's not going to help you win more games.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Interpret the Signs is a bad card, but it served a function in those decks and did it better than any other card in the standard card pool (at the time.) Bad cards can be run, so long as they serve their function better than any other card available and that function was necessary.
I still don't understand why Sullivan insisted on having it in his SB though, surely anything would have been better?
I suppose so.
I had Interpret as a one of Pre-DTK but I simply made a swap from ItS to DP since I felt a guaranteed draw 4 as better than Scry 3 and maybe draw more than 4 cards. DP served the same function that I wanted out of ItS, so it was a simple exchange.