Chandra, the firebrand is red, has significantly less loyalty, and the plus ability on chandra, the firebrand is nothing in comparison to narset's since narset draws a card 50% of the time or more depending on the list. Yeah copying a spell immediately is way better than rebound typically unless you're talking wrath effects or removal spells depending on boarstate let's say your opponent has just one creature and you rebound a hero's downfall. They cannot commit another creature to the board unless they're committing multiple creatures to the board as otherwise rebounded downfall just kills the creature they played/you get value.
Narset is definitely not the worst walker in the block. I'd say she's the 2nd best or 1st as ugin is pretty damn powerful as well but sarkhan and sorin don't come close powerlevel wise to this card.
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Chandra, the firebrand is red, has significantly less loyalty, and the plus ability on chandra, the firebrand is nothing in comparison to narset's since narset draws a card 50% of the time or more depending on the list. Yeah copying a spell immediately is way better than rebound typically unless you're talking wrath effects or removal spells depending on boarstate let's say your opponent has just one creature and you rebound a hero's downfall. They cannot commit another creature to the board unless they're committing multiple creatures to the board as otherwise rebounded downfall just kills the creature they played/you get value.
Narset is definitely not the worst walker in the block. I'd say she's the 2nd best or 1st as ugin is pretty damn powerful as well but sarkhan and sorin don't come close powerlevel wise to this card.
Is that why Sorin, Sarkhan, Garruk, Nissa, Ashiok, Ajani (Mentor), Elspeth, Kiora, Xenagos, and even Chandra show up in winning lists and Narset doesn't? Heck, Chandra even shows up in Modern and Legacy. Narset doesn't even compete and the results speak for themselves. I think out of the 16 walkers in standard I would put Narset Transcendent at a solid 14th place right above Ajani Steadfast and Jace, the Living Guildpact. Even Liliana Vess shows up more than Narset, and that's pretty low.
In this specific standard sure. In some standard environments narset would be broken. Best example is shards zendikar standard you know how much play jace, the mind sculptor saw during jund's reign? Very little because you went jacestorm, they went bloodbraid cascade into anything and kill jace. Jace can't unsummon bloodbraid at all. Year after jace was absolutely destroying standard and got banned. Just because a card doesn't see play doesn't mean it's not powerful.
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In this specific standard sure. In some standard environments narset would be broken. Best example is shards zendikar standard you know how much play jace, the mind sculptor saw during jund's reign? Very little because you went jacestorm, they went bloodbraid cascade into anything and kill jace. Jace can't unsummon bloodbraid at all. Year after jace was absolutely destroying standard and got banned. Just because a card doesn't see play doesn't mean it's not powerful.
And JTMS syndrome strikes again. News Bulletin: Not all new Planeswalkers with blue in their cost are JTMS. In fact, none of them are. I wouldn't even recommend talking about Jund Era though because the truth is that's what is referred to as a "stale format" because Jund was good enough that people got lazy. By the end of that format JTMS was showing really strong with Mythic Bant and NLB without even waiting for BBE to rotate. The long Jund is just what people remember because the deck was so easy to pilot and could do a lot to save you even if you weren't playing it the best. Narset can't stack topdecks or draw 3 cards every turn like JTMS often did using Squawk and SFM. Narset doesn't even manage to draw a card 60% of the time and rebound isn't that much of a consolation prize either. The other big difference is that JTMS's ult read "You win the game" and Narset's reads more like "This might actually be a little bit relevant sometimes". Narset hitting the table won't advance your game if you're behind, and most of the time they won't even make a difference in winning the game if you're on even ground. That makes her a total flop.
I simply stated jace in comparison to jund as an example. Nowhere did I say that Narset is close, equal, or exceeds jace, the mind sculptor in powerlevel. There are plenty of cards that pass through standard that are powerful but don't have the correct support or the metagame is hostile towards. Narset is one of those as Narset is poor against a bunch of aggro decks. If there were control mirrors all over the place narset would be the best card in standard not close since a repeatable source of card advantage is good in the control mirror I hear and the ultimate wins the game in the control mirror. It doesn't matter that rebound is bad against countermagic when in a control mirror you're activating either a conditional card drawing ability or an ability that wins the game.
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In this specific standard sure. In some standard environments narset would be broken. Best example is shards zendikar standard you know how much play jace, the mind sculptor saw during jund's reign? Very little because you went jacestorm, they went bloodbraid cascade into anything and kill jace. Jace can't unsummon bloodbraid at all. Year after jace was absolutely destroying standard and got banned. Just because a card doesn't see play doesn't mean it's not powerful.
And JTMS syndrome strikes again. News Bulletin: Not all new Planeswalkers with blue in their cost are JTMS. In fact, none of them are. I wouldn't even recommend talking about Jund Era though because the truth is that's what is referred to as a "stale format" because Jund was good enough that people got lazy. By the end of that format JTMS was showing really strong with Mythic Bant and NLB without even waiting for BBE to rotate. The long Jund is just what people remember because the deck was so easy to pilot and could do a lot to save you even if you weren't playing it the best. Narset can't stack topdecks or draw 3 cards every turn like JTMS often did using Squawk and SFM. Narset doesn't even manage to draw a card 60% of the time and rebound isn't that much of a consolation prize either. The other big difference is that JTMS's ult read "You win the game" and Narset's reads more like "This might actually be a little bit relevant sometimes". Narset hitting the table won't advance your game if you're behind, and most of the time they won't even make a difference in winning the game if you're on even ground. That makes her a total flop.
Meh, this thread is full of complete and utter bias (this post above proves that). People who really like her probably are over valuing her and people who don't like her are making her sound like the new 'tibalt.' As far as walkers go, she is just fine. She can gain you cards and rebound sweet spells. She is no JTMS but nothing is. Also, if you drop her in an 'even ground' game I guarantee you that if she survives to the next turn you are going to be winning more often than not. Sure she doesn't help you come back from being behind the turn you play her, but what walker in standard that costs 4 does? Xenagos makes a 2/2 but has 3 loyalty, big whoop. Sorin makes a 2/2 and has 2 loyalty, big whoop. Kiora? She is great when you are ahead and sucks when you aren't. Anyway, moral of the story is that 4 Power planeswalkers aren't taking over the game like they did with Jace. They supplement your deck and have the chance to be great over multiple turns but you can't expect them to have an immediate game changing impact. If you want/need that, you play one of the many powerful creatures in standard.
In this specific standard sure. In some standard environments narset would be broken. Best example is shards zendikar standard you know how much play jace, the mind sculptor saw during jund's reign? Very little because you went jacestorm, they went bloodbraid cascade into anything and kill jace. Jace can't unsummon bloodbraid at all. Year after jace was absolutely destroying standard and got banned. Just because a card doesn't see play doesn't mean it's not powerful.
And JTMS syndrome strikes again. News Bulletin: Not all new Planeswalkers with blue in their cost are JTMS. In fact, none of them are. I wouldn't even recommend talking about Jund Era though because the truth is that's what is referred to as a "stale format" because Jund was good enough that people got lazy. By the end of that format JTMS was showing really strong with Mythic Bant and NLB without even waiting for BBE to rotate. The long Jund is just what people remember because the deck was so easy to pilot and could do a lot to save you even if you weren't playing it the best. Narset can't stack topdecks or draw 3 cards every turn like JTMS often did using Squawk and SFM. Narset doesn't even manage to draw a card 60% of the time and rebound isn't that much of a consolation prize either. The other big difference is that JTMS's ult read "You win the game" and Narset's reads more like "This might actually be a little bit relevant sometimes". Narset hitting the table won't advance your game if you're behind, and most of the time they won't even make a difference in winning the game if you're on even ground. That makes her a total flop.
Meh, this thread is full of complete and utter bias (this post above proves that). People who really like her probably are over valuing her and people who don't like her are making her sound like the new 'tibalt.' As far as walkers go, she is just fine. She can gain you cards and rebound sweet spells. She is no JTMS but nothing is. Also, if you drop her in an 'even ground' game I guarantee you that if she survives to the next turn you are going to be winning more often than not. Sure she doesn't help you come back from being behind the turn you play her, but what walker in standard that costs 4 does? Xenagos makes a 2/2 but has 3 loyalty, big whoop. Sorin makes a 2/2 and has 2 loyalty, big whoop. Kiora? She is great when you are ahead and sucks when you aren't. Anyway, moral of the story is that 4 Power planeswalkers aren't taking over the game like they did with Jace. They supplement your deck and have the chance to be great over multiple turns but you can't expect them to have an immediate game changing impact. If you want/need that, you play one of the many powerful creatures in standard.
I don't think she's the new Tibalt. I put her at 14 of 16, not 16 of 16. I think you might mis-evaluate Sorin and Xenagos a little. Sorin is a little weak when you're behind, but he is used to stabilize by allowing a swing through with his "+" ability. Creating the 2/2 is also good, but from what I've seen the most successful when you're a little behind is to plus him so that you can swing stable. If you're way behind even JTMS wouldn't help you. As for Xenagos, again there's his other ability. In a grindy game he gives you a large ramp after playing him. The 2/2 can help keep him if you need 1 extra turn to get there, but the + is most relevant. On the other hand they also both contribute in the match against Control since they allow you to create a field. Xenegos is especially useful there because his have haste. Kiora is also a big play because she can play as a form of removal spell. It's also important to note that she can nerf non-creatures (sorry Purphoros and Impact Tremors). Narset isn't useful in any of these common situations though, let alone being useful in multiple scenarios. Her abilities can have some kick to them, they're just misplaced because they're not reliable enough to be useful and she doesn't have any way of impacting the board without additional support. If we were talking PW's from all times that would put Narset Transcendent on par with Venser, the Sojourner. A fun walker that could find a niche, but isn't really anything amazing on it's own. It's not a bad place to be, but it's a far cry from being better than everything but Ugin and I wouldn't even argue for Ugin as the #1 slot although he is pretty high. His high mana cost limits the number of decks that can really use him and even then he may fall behind Garruk if you're in those colors because Garruk eats Ugin better than Ugin eats Garruk. The lower cost walkers get more versatility because it's easier to hit those mana costs though, and that would probably give them an advantage on my overall scale. Picking a #1 would be pretty rough for me because there are 4 that I think have all the criteria, but each one fits different places. If it weren't for how limiting his colors were I would argue for Sarkhan Unbroken, but realistically it's between Ugin, Garruk, Elspeth and Nissa.
I have played with all the PW's you mention, especially the ones in current standard (kiora, sorin, xenagos and narset). Your meta must be different than mine (I play on MTGO 8mans and dailies), and it's not often I see Purphoros or Impact tremors, which means Kiora basically sucks all the time. With draconic roar in the format (and crackling doom), both the new Sarkhan, Sorin and Xenagos can just get easily removed. Not to mention they can get attacked into with trampling rhino's etc.
But Narset, assuming she doesn't get hero's downfalled, will generally survive to your next turn since you probably countered/killed the creatures before you play her. (assuming you drop her turn 4). Then rebounding end hostilities or dig through time can get you back/ahead in a game. Or, like it happened to me yesterday, your opponent just +1's narset and some how hits all the time
Anyway, I think all of the 4 mana planeswalkers are underpowered. They all perform great in certain situations and sucky in others. The trick is not comparing them to each other (since you aren't playing xenagos in a blue/white control deck) but rather comparing them to the other cards you can play for that specific mana in your deck (or close in mana). For U/W control, or even esper control, your 4 mana is somewhat open (unless you are playing Utter End or ojutai's command). So either you skip worrying about a 4 casting spell and look at the 5 drops (which there are quite a few awesome ones), or you jam her into your deck and hope that she lasts long enough to take over the game. I am sure that testing will determine which of the two is the better approach (in my testing i love her when I am ahead, cause she helps keep me ahead, but when I am behind she pisses me off... )
I do get the argument on rebound vs copy though. Waiting a whole turn for that extra value is a long time.
If you're rebounding dig you've already won. We have a term for that "win more".
I think the best place for Narset might be the draw go mirror. +1 until you can ultimate. Whoever gets there first wins.
She just doesn't cut it against creatures. Tapped out for Narset? Free hit!!!
If you're tapping out for Narset against a board state that could kill you, you deserve to lose. Rebounding Dig doesn't mean you've already won. It means I played Narset and she's alive, have the mana to cast Dig, and have a Dig in my hand. Maybe I cast her and had 2 mana open and don't have an answer to something that will kill me in 2 turns (Atarka) if I don't find an answer by then. And if they attack Narset, then I get 3 turns to find an answer!
In this specific standard sure. In some standard environments narset would be broken. Best example is shards zendikar standard you know how much play jace, the mind sculptor saw during jund's reign? Very little because you went jacestorm, they went bloodbraid cascade into anything and kill jace. Jace can't unsummon bloodbraid at all. Year after jace was absolutely destroying standard and got banned. Just because a card doesn't see play doesn't mean it's not powerful.
Jace saw more play than Narset is seeing by a sizable amount. He was designed to put blue on the map and he did. At PT San Diego, Pat Chapin and Nassif both took a Jace-based control deck to 24+ points. There are another 19 JTMS among 21+ point decklists for 27 total. Narset put 4 copies at 21+. 27 copies of Jace compares to 28 Silumgar's Scorn or 22 Surrak, the Hunt Caller from this PT.
Gideon came out in the following set and Jace + Gideon took Jund's throne. In the 3 Standard GPs after RoE, Jace was in 16/24 top 8 decks vs 8 BBE decks. (That stat is pretty gross, 3 GPs in a row where every single top 8 deck was "pick JTMS or BBE".)
Narset is okay, but not great. She is a SB card that you board in against other Control decks, IMO. She isn't that great against creature heavy decks, because it's too easy for them to just ignore her while she sits around and durdles without actually doing anything.
This entire thread and everyone's opinion s are based on the assumption that she belongs in a control deck, try her in something she has synergy in. Sure, its nice when you can just jam an on color walker into any deck but, sometimes they're build around cards and/or only truely fit in one archetype.
This entire thread and everyone's opinion s are based on the assumption that she belongs in a control deck, try her in something she has synergy in. Sure, its nice when you can just jam an on color walker into any deck but, sometimes they're build around cards and/or only truely fit in one archetype.
Narcet is just not in a good position right now. With the format being aggressive, control decks need to pack as many answers as they can. They don't have space for anything that doesn't control the board, find more answers, or win the game.
If you're in a position where you can drop Narcet and profit from her, you probably have control of the board and Narcet should have just been a win condition instead. Maybe in rotation she might find a home.
It depends on what you are playing. If you are playing a control deck I would only run 1, 2 at the most, and don't be afraid to side her out against aggressive decks.
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Exactly. And when I said 75%, I wasn't being exact. I meant that I hit way more than I miss. I get that some people don't like in control, but to say it like it's fact I can't abide. To each his own, but I love her in my Esper deck.
I feel like everyone is just ignoring all comments prior to their own. We know Narset isn't great in control. [b]She's great in a Jeskai.[/b]
Any you came to this conclusion how exactly?
I'm inclined to agree with you but fact is, Narset is even more unproven in that archetype than she is in Control.
You're welcome to try her in that archetype. The fact is that just cause the pros haven't stuck her in Jeskai doesn't make her unproven. The only way something van be proven is if you see it do work or make it do work in a particular deck.
I feel like everyone is just ignoring all comments prior to their own. We know Narset isn't great in control. [b]She's great in a Jeskai.[/b]
Any you came to this conclusion how exactly?
I'm inclined to agree with you but fact is, Narset is even more unproven in that archetype than she is in Control.
Because the deck is incredibly creature light (running maybe 4 tops) meaning Narset's +1 is highly likely to be a hit, as well as her -2 actively improving their game plan every time with a combination of guaranteed Ascendancy triggers and more dudes/burn. Mind you I'm talking specifically about tokens, not aggro or midrange or anything else, but I assume you know that because you probably read the posts made prior to your own
I'm not arguing against combo but that's not what we're discussing here is it. We're discussing how good Ral Zarek is, because he can twiddle, how powerful Ashiok is, because of his immensely broken albeit delayed ability to put your opponents creatures into play. We are talking about how good Narset is, because you can copy spells a turn later, many of those spells biggest advantages being the fact that they previously didn't have to tie up your main phase and were instants.
"You don't just play her turn 4"
"Wait to play her until you can Dig or Anticipate/Price etc to get more value!"
"What, you don't think copying [insert spell here] is powerful?"
"You practically get to cast free spells!"
Narset is powerful because you can rebound a Dig through Time? Dig through Time is so powerful that I'd be willing to play Narset just to cast it twice.
There's no Strawman there. In a control deck, your win cons are almost ALWAYS cast off curve and in conjunction with other cards (at least in hand). Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Ætherling are absolutely not 6 drops in 99.99% of the time in a control deck.
You know which cards ARE widely agreed as being good? Elspeth, Sarkhan, Sorin, Nissa. All these cards are capable of directly impacting the board the turn you cast them, regardless of curve or your board state or whatever cards you might or might not have in your hand. There are frequently cards that a weak in a vacuum that are very powerful in the correct deck.
All that said, I do agree largely with your opinion of those quotes. I frequently play her turn 4. I don't think waiting until you can rebound a great card is frequently the right play. You definitely can't reduce her to a one trick pony by talking about rebounding [insert spell here] is powerful. I think the last is an indicator of why she's weak in a control mirror. I see minimal value from her -2 and going all in on an ult to win a control match up is not something I feel comfortable with. She is at her best when the -2 can produce good or better value from a large number of cards. This is why Narset Esper has such a good track record against mono-red. Unless a card says "Counter target spell" (and even then if it is Ojutai's Command), it's probably a good rebound target.
Additionally, every single walker you named is a win con walker. She's not a win con walker. Narset Transcendent is support walker. She's much more like Jace, Architect of Thought in this respect. He was played primarily for his -2 and for his ult late game. I guess his +1 technically impacts the board state. He wasn't played for it though. Anytime the +1 was relevant, the -2 was more relevant to dig for a Supreme Verdict.
I feel like everyone is just ignoring all comments prior to their own. We know Narset isn't great in control. [b]She's great in a Jeskai.[/b]
Any you came to this conclusion how exactly?
I'm inclined to agree with you but fact is, Narset is even more unproven in that archetype than she is in Control.
Because the deck is incredibly creature light (running maybe 4 tops) meaning Narset's +1 is highly likely to be a hit, as well as her -2 actively improving their game plan every time with a combination of guaranteed Ascendancy triggers and more dudes/burn. Mind you I'm talking specifically about tokens, not aggro or midrange or anything else, but I assume you know that because you probably read the posts made prior to your own
She's not seeing the play in Tokens that you might expect is almost certainly due to to the fact that she competes with Outpost Siege. It has a card advantage mode and a sometimes very important mode that deals damage when creatures leave play that can result in a win the moment it hits board. You don't want to tap out for her on turn 4. In tokens, you are usually looking for explosive plays around turn 4. If you don't have it, Outpost Siege is arguably a better card for the long haul games. Getting gas is more important and Outpost Siege clears your deck better by being able to get past lands.
I still don't understand why some people think she's at her best in the control match up and of limited use in aggro / midrange match ups. On the play, she is just absolutely devastating against them. In the control mirror, Narset Transcendent, while a powerful win con, is also one of your most fragile win cons (win con in that ulting is for all practical purposes game ending). Only Dragonlord Silumgar is more vulnerable in the mirror.
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Narset is definitely not the worst walker in the block. I'd say she's the 2nd best or 1st as ugin is pretty damn powerful as well but sarkhan and sorin don't come close powerlevel wise to this card.
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Is that why Sorin, Sarkhan, Garruk, Nissa, Ashiok, Ajani (Mentor), Elspeth, Kiora, Xenagos, and even Chandra show up in winning lists and Narset doesn't? Heck, Chandra even shows up in Modern and Legacy. Narset doesn't even compete and the results speak for themselves. I think out of the 16 walkers in standard I would put Narset Transcendent at a solid 14th place right above Ajani Steadfast and Jace, the Living Guildpact. Even Liliana Vess shows up more than Narset, and that's pretty low.
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And JTMS syndrome strikes again. News Bulletin: Not all new Planeswalkers with blue in their cost are JTMS. In fact, none of them are. I wouldn't even recommend talking about Jund Era though because the truth is that's what is referred to as a "stale format" because Jund was good enough that people got lazy. By the end of that format JTMS was showing really strong with Mythic Bant and NLB without even waiting for BBE to rotate. The long Jund is just what people remember because the deck was so easy to pilot and could do a lot to save you even if you weren't playing it the best. Narset can't stack topdecks or draw 3 cards every turn like JTMS often did using Squawk and SFM. Narset doesn't even manage to draw a card 60% of the time and rebound isn't that much of a consolation prize either. The other big difference is that JTMS's ult read "You win the game" and Narset's reads more like "This might actually be a little bit relevant sometimes". Narset hitting the table won't advance your game if you're behind, and most of the time they won't even make a difference in winning the game if you're on even ground. That makes her a total flop.
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Meh, this thread is full of complete and utter bias (this post above proves that). People who really like her probably are over valuing her and people who don't like her are making her sound like the new 'tibalt.' As far as walkers go, she is just fine. She can gain you cards and rebound sweet spells. She is no JTMS but nothing is. Also, if you drop her in an 'even ground' game I guarantee you that if she survives to the next turn you are going to be winning more often than not. Sure she doesn't help you come back from being behind the turn you play her, but what walker in standard that costs 4 does? Xenagos makes a 2/2 but has 3 loyalty, big whoop. Sorin makes a 2/2 and has 2 loyalty, big whoop. Kiora? She is great when you are ahead and sucks when you aren't. Anyway, moral of the story is that 4 Power planeswalkers aren't taking over the game like they did with Jace. They supplement your deck and have the chance to be great over multiple turns but you can't expect them to have an immediate game changing impact. If you want/need that, you play one of the many powerful creatures in standard.
I don't think she's the new Tibalt. I put her at 14 of 16, not 16 of 16. I think you might mis-evaluate Sorin and Xenagos a little. Sorin is a little weak when you're behind, but he is used to stabilize by allowing a swing through with his "+" ability. Creating the 2/2 is also good, but from what I've seen the most successful when you're a little behind is to plus him so that you can swing stable. If you're way behind even JTMS wouldn't help you. As for Xenagos, again there's his other ability. In a grindy game he gives you a large ramp after playing him. The 2/2 can help keep him if you need 1 extra turn to get there, but the + is most relevant. On the other hand they also both contribute in the match against Control since they allow you to create a field. Xenegos is especially useful there because his have haste. Kiora is also a big play because she can play as a form of removal spell. It's also important to note that she can nerf non-creatures (sorry Purphoros and Impact Tremors). Narset isn't useful in any of these common situations though, let alone being useful in multiple scenarios. Her abilities can have some kick to them, they're just misplaced because they're not reliable enough to be useful and she doesn't have any way of impacting the board without additional support. If we were talking PW's from all times that would put Narset Transcendent on par with Venser, the Sojourner. A fun walker that could find a niche, but isn't really anything amazing on it's own. It's not a bad place to be, but it's a far cry from being better than everything but Ugin and I wouldn't even argue for Ugin as the #1 slot although he is pretty high. His high mana cost limits the number of decks that can really use him and even then he may fall behind Garruk if you're in those colors because Garruk eats Ugin better than Ugin eats Garruk. The lower cost walkers get more versatility because it's easier to hit those mana costs though, and that would probably give them an advantage on my overall scale. Picking a #1 would be pretty rough for me because there are 4 that I think have all the criteria, but each one fits different places. If it weren't for how limiting his colors were I would argue for Sarkhan Unbroken, but realistically it's between Ugin, Garruk, Elspeth and Nissa.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
But Narset, assuming she doesn't get hero's downfalled, will generally survive to your next turn since you probably countered/killed the creatures before you play her. (assuming you drop her turn 4). Then rebounding end hostilities or dig through time can get you back/ahead in a game. Or, like it happened to me yesterday, your opponent just +1's narset and some how hits all the time
Anyway, I think all of the 4 mana planeswalkers are underpowered. They all perform great in certain situations and sucky in others. The trick is not comparing them to each other (since you aren't playing xenagos in a blue/white control deck) but rather comparing them to the other cards you can play for that specific mana in your deck (or close in mana). For U/W control, or even esper control, your 4 mana is somewhat open (unless you are playing Utter End or ojutai's command). So either you skip worrying about a 4 casting spell and look at the 5 drops (which there are quite a few awesome ones), or you jam her into your deck and hope that she lasts long enough to take over the game. I am sure that testing will determine which of the two is the better approach (in my testing i love her when I am ahead, cause she helps keep me ahead, but when I am behind she pisses me off... )
If you're tapping out for Narset against a board state that could kill you, you deserve to lose. Rebounding Dig doesn't mean you've already won. It means I played Narset and she's alive, have the mana to cast Dig, and have a Dig in my hand. Maybe I cast her and had 2 mana open and don't have an answer to something that will kill me in 2 turns (Atarka) if I don't find an answer by then. And if they attack Narset, then I get 3 turns to find an answer!
Jace saw more play than Narset is seeing by a sizable amount. He was designed to put blue on the map and he did. At PT San Diego, Pat Chapin and Nassif both took a Jace-based control deck to 24+ points. There are another 19 JTMS among 21+ point decklists for 27 total. Narset put 4 copies at 21+. 27 copies of Jace compares to 28 Silumgar's Scorn or 22 Surrak, the Hunt Caller from this PT.
Gideon came out in the following set and Jace + Gideon took Jund's throne. In the 3 Standard GPs after RoE, Jace was in 16/24 top 8 decks vs 8 BBE decks. (That stat is pretty gross, 3 GPs in a row where every single top 8 deck was "pick JTMS or BBE".)
Like Jeskai Tokens.
If you're in a position where you can drop Narcet and profit from her, you probably have control of the board and Narcet should have just been a win condition instead. Maybe in rotation she might find a home.
MODERN
BRG Jund
WU Control
UBRG Dredge
BG Elves
G Tron
Affinity
Building:
WR Boros Burn
UB Tezzerator
I also play Legacy, and EDH. Follow me at MTGPackFoils on Twitter.
You only run 15 lands in a control deck?
Between Dissolve and 10-12 scry lands, there's plenty of ways to peek at your top card.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Exactly. And when I said 75%, I wasn't being exact. I meant that I hit way more than I miss. I get that some people don't like in control, but to say it like it's fact I can't abide. To each his own, but I love her in my Esper deck.
Any you came to this conclusion how exactly?
I'm inclined to agree with you but fact is, Narset is even more unproven in that archetype than she is in Control.
You're welcome to try her in that archetype. The fact is that just cause the pros haven't stuck her in Jeskai doesn't make her unproven. The only way something van be proven is if you see it do work or make it do work in a particular deck.
Because the deck is incredibly creature light (running maybe 4 tops) meaning Narset's +1 is highly likely to be a hit, as well as her -2 actively improving their game plan every time with a combination of guaranteed Ascendancy triggers and more dudes/burn. Mind you I'm talking specifically about tokens, not aggro or midrange or anything else, but I assume you know that because you probably read the posts made prior to your own
There's no Strawman there. In a control deck, your win cons are almost ALWAYS cast off curve and in conjunction with other cards (at least in hand). Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Ætherling are absolutely not 6 drops in 99.99% of the time in a control deck.
You know which cards ARE widely agreed as being good? Elspeth, Sarkhan, Sorin, Nissa. All these cards are capable of directly impacting the board the turn you cast them, regardless of curve or your board state or whatever cards you might or might not have in your hand. There are frequently cards that a weak in a vacuum that are very powerful in the correct deck.
All that said, I do agree largely with your opinion of those quotes. I frequently play her turn 4. I don't think waiting until you can rebound a great card is frequently the right play. You definitely can't reduce her to a one trick pony by talking about rebounding [insert spell here] is powerful. I think the last is an indicator of why she's weak in a control mirror. I see minimal value from her -2 and going all in on an ult to win a control match up is not something I feel comfortable with. She is at her best when the -2 can produce good or better value from a large number of cards. This is why Narset Esper has such a good track record against mono-red. Unless a card says "Counter target spell" (and even then if it is Ojutai's Command), it's probably a good rebound target.
Additionally, every single walker you named is a win con walker. She's not a win con walker. Narset Transcendent is support walker. She's much more like Jace, Architect of Thought in this respect. He was played primarily for his -2 and for his ult late game. I guess his +1 technically impacts the board state. He wasn't played for it though. Anytime the +1 was relevant, the -2 was more relevant to dig for a Supreme Verdict.
She's not seeing the play in Tokens that you might expect is almost certainly due to to the fact that she competes with Outpost Siege. It has a card advantage mode and a sometimes very important mode that deals damage when creatures leave play that can result in a win the moment it hits board. You don't want to tap out for her on turn 4. In tokens, you are usually looking for explosive plays around turn 4. If you don't have it, Outpost Siege is arguably a better card for the long haul games. Getting gas is more important and Outpost Siege clears your deck better by being able to get past lands.
I still don't understand why some people think she's at her best in the control match up and of limited use in aggro / midrange match ups. On the play, she is just absolutely devastating against them. In the control mirror, Narset Transcendent, while a powerful win con, is also one of your most fragile win cons (win con in that ulting is for all practical purposes game ending). Only Dragonlord Silumgar is more vulnerable in the mirror.