Nothing wrong with sticking her on T4, 7 is a LOT of loyalty. If she +1s and hits, she's already replaced herself and your opponent either has to have the downfall for her or has to redirect their resources to killing her, lest you untap and rebound something terrifying. I don't feel like she's a walker you necessarily try to protect, if you can, great, but otherwise I like her as a walker your opponent needs to devote some resources to kill; more of a diversion tactic really while you keep dropping land and working your way to an Elspeth or End Hostilities or whatever. But, like I said, if she does stick because you dropped her onto a clear board or your opponents just don't have the 7 power getting through to take her down, she's a scary prospect to allow to untap.
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What I mean is that Planeswalker ultimates are literally irrelevant. In any game of magic where you activated one, you were basically goldfishing against a dead opponent. You would have won no matter what you did. You could have won with a Storm Crow.
I'm not advocating control decks packing Storm Crow, but in a situation where an ultimate was used, Storm Crow would have also won the game in that same spot. So saying the Planeswalker was the reason you won was intellectually dishonest and outright deceitful.
This is millions of kinds of wrong. I'm pretty sure you're mistaking "I don't know how to properly play planeswalkers" as "there's no way to properly play planeswalkers"
No, its not wrong at all. One of the most common bits of advice as far as planeswalkers in magic goes is "Ignore all Planeswalker ultimates". I don't know where you think anything else is right, but it has me curious regardless.
There are other devastating ultimates going around in standard right now. Kiora's ultimate is game ending. However, Kiora is still considered a bad card (seeing play in a bad deck does not necessitate a card being good).
Sorin's ultimate makes it so you can't lose via creature combat. And yet no one bothers to use his ultimate at all. The right line of play is to -2 him and use his +1 for lifelink the rest of the time.
If you go into modern, Jace AoT and Tamiyo have absolutely devastating ultimates (Jace steals the best card in your opponent's deck and Tamiyo gives you infinite uses of whatever cards your using). Both of these walkers are still considered hilariously bad in modern though, ultimates notwithstanding.
If you were able to ultimate a planeswalker, you had already won the game and you were playing on auto-pilot. If you are in a position where you cannot interact with a planeswalker for 3-4 turns consecutively, then you absolutely deserve to lose that game. That's basic common sense. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.
'Walker ultimates aren't unimportant though. One of the questions that people ask themselves when they see a new walker is "will this card win me the game on its own?" Take a look at Caw-Blade. While the deck didn't usually mind-sculpt an opponent, the fact that it could and sometimes did was one of the reasons the deck was a tough one to beat; it was yet another winning game plan the deck could use.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion often uses her ultimate to win games after making tokens for the last two turns. Sure,it's technically the tokens that are winning here, but Elspeth's ultimate accelerates the process before an opponent can find a solution.
Lili of the Veil's ultimate isn't often utilized and doesn't win by itself, but again, it's sealed games and taken away possible outs by torching resources for opponents. I've seen people ultimate her competitively before.
Narset's ultimate is admittedly situational. I can see matchups where I'd never use it, but I can also see it as a way to seal a matchup against a control player. While it doesn't outright win, against a control deck it might as well. But there's a lot of spells in Narset builds that rebounding sure feels like an ultimate. Rebounding Dig Through Time is kind of bonkers.
Sometimes a 'walker is the last thing you have that can threaten a win. It forces your opponent to devote resources if they're afraid of it. If they can't interact with it, but don't care to either, then you may or may not be winning anyway. They may just be hoping to find that Crater's Claws before the ultimate happens, in which case you'll happily +1 Narset all day long till you can stop that plan.
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Kiora's a planeswalker that sees almost no play and this is not the modern forum so I can't fathom what Tamiyo and Jace AoT have to do with anything. I win games literally actual every single day with planeswalker ultimates. Elspeth, Sun's Champion's way of killing the opponent is her ultimate and you certainly can't win with with her without it in many games because your dudes get eaten by groundpounders. I won 2 games last night with narset ultimates. You're just making a silly, trolly argument. If the ultimates didn't matter they wouldn't be printed on the card.
herp derp why would i want all my dudes to have +2+2 and flying that seems way worse than getting 3 1/1s errrrrrp
Narset is fine, but her deck and position in the metagame are not. Narset shines when she can stick on the board in the control mirror or even against midrange, but this is purely an aggro meta (GR Aggro, Mono-red aggro, the other GR Aggro, GR Midrange "aggro", Bant Heroics, etc.). If you are expecting to face aggro decks the majority of the time she makes virtually zero sense to include in the main, as she does absolutely nothing in this matchups.
She could be a very strong card if standard changes or after rotation, but right now her potential is unrealized and her price should drop substantially. She's not a walker like Elspeth that has value in almost every matchup, as she does not impact the board and 70% of the time will literally do nothing if dropped T4. But all three of her abilities can win games in grindy matchups. At best I would sideboard her as an answer to Esper control.
No, its not wrong at all. One of the most common bits of advice as far as planeswalkers in magic goes is "Ignore all Planeswalker ultimates". I don't know where you think anything else is right, but it has me curious regardless.
There are other devastating ultimates going around in standard right now. Kiora's ultimate is game ending. However, Kiora is still considered a bad card (seeing play in a bad deck does not necessitate a card being good).
Sorin's ultimate makes it so you can't lose via creature combat. And yet no one bothers to use his ultimate at all. The right line of play is to -2 him and use his +1 for lifelink the rest of the time.
If you go into modern, Jace AoT and Tamiyo have absolutely devastating ultimates (Jace steals the best card in your opponent's deck and Tamiyo gives you infinite uses of whatever cards your using). Both of these walkers are still considered hilariously bad in modern though, ultimates notwithstanding.
If you were able to ultimate a planeswalker, you had already won the game and you were playing on auto-pilot. If you are in a position where you cannot interact with a planeswalker for 3-4 turns consecutively, then you absolutely deserve to lose that game. That's basic common sense. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.
I have ulted without a creature on the board. I duressed on turn 3, took the counter or hero's down fall, played her on turn 4 and +'d. then protected her with counter spells till her ult. At the time of hte ult I didn't have my dragon win con, and as far as I know I didn't have one coming anytime soon. The ult single handedly won the game for me since they can't remove my wincons anymore. At that point a 1/1 would win, sure (assuming I counter any creatures they play).
While you are totally correct that you don't evaluate PW's solely based on their ultimates, comparing her ultimate to having a 1/1 creature attacking for 20 turns is definitely not the same thing. Many deck's can't deal with her right away.
I wasn’t all that impressed by that card when it was first spoiled. Once we started testing with it, our team quickly concluded that it wasn’t a great card.
I wasn’t all that impressed by that card when it was first spoiled. Once we started testing with it, our team quickly concluded that it wasn’t a great card.
I don't know. I'd assume it was the distinct lack of her at the top tables at the Pro Tour that shows that she's not really good enough. There were only 4 decks at 6-3-1 (in the standard swiss portion) that ran her at all, and one of them only had her in the SB. Regardless, I've always been a big advocate of doing my own testing. I did like her at first glance, since 7 is a lot of loyalty, but it really didn't take that many games of testing to figure out she's a bit underwhelming.
No, I don't think anyone liked her a whole lot in UW control.
I wish we saw a list of match ups so we could see where decks struggled easier. I suspect that Narset Transcendent was hurting with the amount of other control decks in the field. I think that's where she's at her weakest.
Quote from "Andrew Cuneo" »
For a while I was testing one copy of Narset and 1 copy of Jace's Ingenuity to see which was better. They are both very similar in power level
... I didn't stop reading there, I did actually finish his article. But man, that's just a stupid statement.
Unless you get to ultimate Narset Transcendent, I don't see why you would ever play her in a control deck. Now in something like Jeskai Tokens, she feels right at home. Nothing says a great deal like a rebounded Stoke the Flames, Hordeling Outburst, or Treasure Cruise. God forbid you have a Jeskai Ascendancy out; that's just punching the ticket to Value Town. And that's not even counting the free attacks, burn spells or targeted removal it draws off your precious creatures and life total.
I wasn’t all that impressed by that card when it was first spoiled. Once we started testing with it, our team quickly concluded that it wasn’t a great card.
Yep, that settles it. Selling mine and never playing her again! Unless of course someone plays deck with her that wins a tournament...
I seem to be in the minority here where I completely disregarded her until I put her in the deck I am currently using and she has shined when I got her down. I run a good amount of card draw and also Prowess creatures so her -2 has worked wonders in some games. The only time I ever even try to +1 is when I am against UB control and want to threaten a ultimate or when I have nothing in my hand to -2 with. There has been multiple games where I have been able to -2 a Dig and those 4 cards out of a top 14 almost always mean game over. She's just really deck dependent I think and not a one fits all planeswalker.
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Narset is good. Jeskai tokens. Rebound Hordeling Outbust, rebound Dragon Fodder, rebound Stoke the Flames. You're only running 6 creatures tops and 4 enchantments, so odds of +1 hitting are good.
Hypothetically speaking, if Elspeth's +1 said you get 6 tokens NEXT turn, would she be half as good as she currently is?
Efficiency matters. Arguing that a card is good because it is more powerful when cast off curve and in conjunction with other spells to get a meaningful effect does not a convincing argument make.
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Efficiency matters. Arguing that a card is good because it is more powerful when cast off curve and in conjunction with other spells to get a meaningful effect does not a convincing argument make.
I'm not arguing against combo but that's not what we're discussing here is it. We're discussing how good Ral Zarek is, because he can twiddle, how powerful Ashiok is, because of his immensely broken albeit delayed ability to put your opponents creatures into play. We are talking about how good Narset is, because you can copy spells a turn later, many of those spells biggest advantages being the fact that they previously didn't have to tie up your main phase and were instants.
"You don't just play her turn 4"
"Wait to play her until you can Dig or Anticipate/Price etc to get more value!"
"What, you don't think copying [insert spell here] is powerful?"
"You practically get to cast free spells!"
You know which cards ARE widely agreed as being good? Elspeth, Sarkhan, Sorin, Nissa. All these cards are capable of directly impacting the board the turn you cast them, regardless of curve or your board state or whatever cards you might or might not have in your hand.
Narset is powerful because you can rebound a Dig through Time? Dig through Time is so powerful that I'd be willing to play Narset just to cast it twice.
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Yeah because having to wait a whole turn for a free Dig Through Time or 3 extra goblin tokens is just not worth it...?
Chandra Firebrand can give you that second copy immediately and without the weakness to counterspells that Narset's -2 has. This is a planeswalker that was viewed as fairly underwhelming.
Yeah because having to wait a whole turn for a free Dig Through Time or 3 extra goblin tokens is just not worth it...?
Chandra Firebrand can give you that second copy immediately and without the weakness to counterspells that Narset's -2 has. This is a planeswalker that was viewed as fairly underwhelming.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
No, its not wrong at all. One of the most common bits of advice as far as planeswalkers in magic goes is "Ignore all Planeswalker ultimates". I don't know where you think anything else is right, but it has me curious regardless.
There are other devastating ultimates going around in standard right now. Kiora's ultimate is game ending. However, Kiora is still considered a bad card (seeing play in a bad deck does not necessitate a card being good).
Sorin's ultimate makes it so you can't lose via creature combat. And yet no one bothers to use his ultimate at all. The right line of play is to -2 him and use his +1 for lifelink the rest of the time.
If you go into modern, Jace AoT and Tamiyo have absolutely devastating ultimates (Jace steals the best card in your opponent's deck and Tamiyo gives you infinite uses of whatever cards your using). Both of these walkers are still considered hilariously bad in modern though, ultimates notwithstanding.
If you were able to ultimate a planeswalker, you had already won the game and you were playing on auto-pilot. If you are in a position where you cannot interact with a planeswalker for 3-4 turns consecutively, then you absolutely deserve to lose that game. That's basic common sense. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion often uses her ultimate to win games after making tokens for the last two turns. Sure,it's technically the tokens that are winning here, but Elspeth's ultimate accelerates the process before an opponent can find a solution.
Lili of the Veil's ultimate isn't often utilized and doesn't win by itself, but again, it's sealed games and taken away possible outs by torching resources for opponents. I've seen people ultimate her competitively before.
Narset's ultimate is admittedly situational. I can see matchups where I'd never use it, but I can also see it as a way to seal a matchup against a control player. While it doesn't outright win, against a control deck it might as well. But there's a lot of spells in Narset builds that rebounding sure feels like an ultimate. Rebounding Dig Through Time is kind of bonkers.
Sometimes a 'walker is the last thing you have that can threaten a win. It forces your opponent to devote resources if they're afraid of it. If they can't interact with it, but don't care to either, then you may or may not be winning anyway. They may just be hoping to find that Crater's Claws before the ultimate happens, in which case you'll happily +1 Narset all day long till you can stop that plan.
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herp derp why would i want all my dudes to have +2+2 and flying that seems way worse than getting 3 1/1s errrrrrp
She could be a very strong card if standard changes or after rotation, but right now her potential is unrealized and her price should drop substantially. She's not a walker like Elspeth that has value in almost every matchup, as she does not impact the board and 70% of the time will literally do nothing if dropped T4. But all three of her abilities can win games in grindy matchups. At best I would sideboard her as an answer to Esper control.
I have ulted without a creature on the board. I duressed on turn 3, took the counter or hero's down fall, played her on turn 4 and +'d. then protected her with counter spells till her ult. At the time of hte ult I didn't have my dragon win con, and as far as I know I didn't have one coming anytime soon. The ult single handedly won the game for me since they can't remove my wincons anymore. At that point a 1/1 would win, sure (assuming I counter any creatures they play).
While you are totally correct that you don't evaluate PW's solely based on their ultimates, comparing her ultimate to having a 1/1 creature attacking for 20 turns is definitely not the same thing. Many deck's can't deal with her right away.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pantheon-deck-tech-uw-control-2/
I don't know. I'd assume it was the distinct lack of her at the top tables at the Pro Tour that shows that she's not really good enough. There were only 4 decks at 6-3-1 (in the standard swiss portion) that ran her at all, and one of them only had her in the SB. Regardless, I've always been a big advocate of doing my own testing. I did like her at first glance, since 7 is a lot of loyalty, but it really didn't take that many games of testing to figure out she's a bit underwhelming.
I wish we saw a list of match ups so we could see where decks struggled easier. I suspect that Narset Transcendent was hurting with the amount of other control decks in the field. I think that's where she's at her weakest.
... I didn't stop reading there, I did actually finish his article. But man, that's just a stupid statement.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yep, that settles it. Selling mine and never playing her again! Unless of course someone plays deck with her that wins a tournament...
I agree, don't know what Cuneo is on about it.
Jace's Ingenuity at least does something when you cast it.
Maybe she will great once Theros rotate but currently shes isn't all that special and alot of people knew it
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I fail to see the issue.
Ral Zarek, Vraska the Unseen.
The community vastly overrates the power of planeswalkers simply because they are planeswalkers.
Efficiency matters. Arguing that a card is good because it is more powerful when cast off curve and in conjunction with other spells to get a meaningful effect does not a convincing argument make.
So, basically we can't argue for combo ever?
I'm not arguing against combo but that's not what we're discussing here is it. We're discussing how good Ral Zarek is, because he can twiddle, how powerful Ashiok is, because of his immensely broken albeit delayed ability to put your opponents creatures into play. We are talking about how good Narset is, because you can copy spells a turn later, many of those spells biggest advantages being the fact that they previously didn't have to tie up your main phase and were instants.
"You don't just play her turn 4"
"Wait to play her until you can Dig or Anticipate/Price etc to get more value!"
"What, you don't think copying [insert spell here] is powerful?"
"You practically get to cast free spells!"
You know which cards ARE widely agreed as being good? Elspeth, Sarkhan, Sorin, Nissa. All these cards are capable of directly impacting the board the turn you cast them, regardless of curve or your board state or whatever cards you might or might not have in your hand.
Narset is powerful because you can rebound a Dig through Time? Dig through Time is so powerful that I'd be willing to play Narset just to cast it twice.
Chandra Firebrand can give you that second copy immediately and without the weakness to counterspells that Narset's -2 has. This is a planeswalker that was viewed as fairly underwhelming.
Sorry I didn't realise Chandra, the Firebrand was standard legal.
Oh wait, she's not?
If you're rebounding dig you've already won. We have a term for that "win more".
I think the best place for Narset might be the draw go mirror. +1 until you can ultimate. Whoever gets there first wins.
She just doesn't cut it against creatures. Tapped out for Narset? Free hit!!!