well mentor is making moves in vintage....if that counts for antyhing but think mentor becomes a contender once rotation.
Sidisi 1.0, honestly think the card is pretty trash and its just getting love because the deck needs that affect not that its actually a good card. more so now than in the past with whisperwood printing...
all the 5 mana board wipes, just feel like crux and end hostilities are extremely poor given the complete rise of GW devotion and how bad it really is to cast verse it in comparison to ugin/perilous vault.(essentially devotion decks prior to whisperwood were fairly good to great mu's for control prior and now that they have moved away from 3-4 nissas vault/ugin just look generally better for answers)outside of gw devotion there is very few lists where a 5 mana wrath is better than a straight boardwipe abzan aggro is probably about it.
and lastly rabblemaster-i know this card puts up results but every time ive played against ive beaten it fairly easy even if it didn't draw an answer for 3 turns but managed to just find 2 potential blockers to just stall until i can draw more cards and kill it or just nullify its tokens. idk if they just draw extremely poor or if its really just best verse control and essentially shooed into every list as a 4 because control still exists and most people still refute to cut it post games...
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
oh wow. I can stomach comments about Tasigur, but the fact is Courser of Kruphix is probably the best card in standard. It has enabled midrange-strategies since its printing and has seen play in Modern too. I can't think of a more format-defining card than Courser.
What deck doesn't have a 2-3 drop removal spell for this guy? I like this card a lot but recently, with the meta at where it is, I question it's worth.
Bile Blight
Drown in Sorrow
Lightning Strike
Magma Jet
Anger of the Gods
Abzan Charm (after a turn)
Hero's downfall
Stoke the flames
There is so much removal in a the game right now that kills things toughness 3 and lower. Yes there is the standard removal cards that hit a lot of things, but this is a 3 drop that mostly, casually dies by almost any removal without much effect.
Am I saying it's a bad card? No- that's the thing though. This card generates so much threat, that it is usually accompanied by other low toughness creatures. Making drown in sorrow and anger of the gods even more appealing. Not to mention if they have chump blockers or lifelinkers- (delver soulfayer, soulfire, seeker, etc.) You guarentee free life when you're trying to aggro. Without stoke to STOP attacks when you need it to- you're likely throwing away tokens, or multiples of Rabble.
I'm not saying its a bad card, just overrated. Brimaz is a better 3 drop right now, IMO. A little slower, but a lot stronger. Rabble isn't a spell either, so you don't get a Prowess trigger off of him. Again, not bad, just overrated. I've had a lot of success going to Soulfire, Seeker, and Butcher of the Horde as my creature 12.
Oh- and don't forget Ultimate price is coming back too.
Isn't this suppose to be the overrated thread, not the cards you personally hate thread. Valorous Stance sees tons of play in the most competitive decks, I don't think it can be overrated.
This is surely why people are suggesting it is overrated, if it's being overused in these decks but not performing. I'm not sure it isn't performing, and the competitive lists I've seen use it as a 2- or 3-of rather than a 4-of, but that's the argument being made.
I've seen late game tasigurs just turn a game around with relevant card draw every turn, a 1 mana 4/5 doesn't seems seem overrated.
I suspect people are underrating Tasigur because what he's doing isn't always that obvious, and he is very rarely a 4/5 for 1 unless drawn late enough that a 4/5 isn't a terribly relevant body (he's still good as a more typical 4/5 for 3-4). I think there's a temptation to feel he's not performing if what he's giving you isn't great, without considering that he's saving you wasted draws in those cases.
Personally I think Sorin is extremely overrated. Tired of seeing him jammed into control lists where he does next to nothing. Unless you're ahead on board he has such minimal impact, probably the worst planeswalker to play on an empty board, barely threatens and can't stabilize unless you have a good board.
He was heavily overrated when he was first released, as evidenced by the fact that he was soon relegated to a 1-2 of in Abzan sideboards, but I haven't seen him played at all recently.
I don't think courser or rabblemaster are overrated at all! Those cards are downright terrifying to face down if you don't have an answer in hand.
I think these are easy traps to fall into, though, and considering Sidisi and Tasigur overrated seems a symptom of the same mindset: either people who aren't seeing the long-term value of the card advantage they provide, or who expect format-defining cards to be the sorts of cards that actively win games by themselves (which Rabblemaster may be and Tasigur sometimes is, but the other two very rarely are). As a whip, and G/X player, I can sympathise with the feeling when drawing into Courser or Sidisi that they aren't cards you especially want to draw because they don't feel as if they do enough. Courser in particular is a bad card to draw late, but you need 4 in the deck to reliably get one early enough.
There's also the more subtle effect of being at the right point on the mana curve: Courser would be a fairly efficient card at 4 mana, but what makes it so important is that it's a 3-drop in a colour that plays 3-drops on turn 2, often has crowded slots higher on the mana curve, and has abilities that can be immediately relevant.
What deck doesn't have a 2-3 drop removal spell for this guy? I like this card a lot but recently, with the meta at where it is, I question it's worth.
Bile Blight
Drown in Sorrow
Lightning Strike
Magma Jet
Anger of the Gods
Abzan Charm (after a turn)
Hero's downfall
Stoke the flames
There is so much removal in a the game right now that kills things toughness 3 and lower. Yes there is the standard removal cards that hit a lot of things, but this is a 3 drop that mostly, casually dies by almost any removal without much effect.
Case in point. Most of the above removal is spot removal that kills Rabble only, and/or is not removal you want to be forced to play against a 3-drop (especially against a deck full of Stormbreath Dragons). Being forced to run Bile Blight or Drown in Sorrow against it is a victory of its own, because these cards are too narrow to hit many other things in the same decks. Dealing with Rabblemaster is almost always trading down or evenly, or is a loss of card advantage because there will be more than one target to hit, and that's the best-case scenario when you have an answer right away (and anything can seem overrated if you happen to have an answer in hand when it comes down). Cards like Rabblemaster often don't win the game by attacking themselves or swarming with goblins, but because the Hero's Downfall or Stoke they eat leaves you defenceless against the dragon that comes down next turn.
Brimaz has a lot of drawbacks relative to Rabblemaster: a WW requirement forces heavier commitment to a colour not currently as well-positioned as red for pure aggro. As a legend he can't interact with other copies if you have more than one. But most importantly he's a lot slower since his tokens only come down when he attacks, and having to attack makes him vulnerable. He's more comparable to Mardu Strike Leader than Rabblemaster. He also dies to practically all the same spot removal except the red 2-3 damage spells, and doesn't force the opponent to build around defeating him with conditional removal like Bile Blight.
Ok bile blight would still be seeing play even if rabblemaster didn't...it kills too many things in this format to say its just for rabble master and nothing else. In the decks running rabble look at all their 2 drops it kills every single one of them sometimes even all their 3's. Look at junk aggro it kills all of their 1-2 drops on curve with potential upsides. Even against other control decks you can still get to kill elspeth tokens efficiently. Bile blight is largely used because there isn't just another good 2 drop removal spell yet in black and it runs with potential upside and now with valorous stance and other indestructible effects don't save you from it. and most of those removal spells listed do the same as bile to most 1-3 drops in the format with the exception of magma jet being the outlier and probably the weakest of the bunch.
The argument is rabble just isn't as good a card in this format as he once was; outside of control decks and potentially the mirror(aka red decks playing rabble). all g/x devotion decks create too many blockers on a reasonable draw for rabble to be able to push, junk aggros threats all match up very well verse rabble and surprisingly not the best verse brimaz, sultai control has a really good answers to it, and all rabble decks are already packing a crap ton of answers to it, i really have no idea how rabble is in the uw/x heroic deck(barely ever get to see that deck to begin with) so i can't really speak on that mu, if i missed some archetype my bad.
Ok bile blight would still be seeing play even if rabblemaster didn't...it kills too many things in this format to say its just for rabble master and nothing else.
That's true, but in the decks where Rabblemaster shines it's often killing Rabblemaster and nothing else (save Jeskai tokens, but there the tokens and rabble can grow to big to kill with it). It's not that Bile Blight wouldn't be in the format without Rabblemaster, it's that you wouldn't be bringing it in against that deck. The other matchups you mention are much better places to play this card.
In fact this is something I've seen pros mention: Rabblemaster is usually sideboarded out after game 1, because he's a must-answer threat that demands the opponent side in removal to deal with him in case he isn't boarded out, but that removal is often dead when he is.
The argument is rabble just isn't as good a card in this format as he once was; outside of control decks and potentially the mirror(aka red decks playing rabble). all g/x devotion decks create too many blockers on a reasonable draw for rabble to be able to push, junk aggros threats all match up very well verse rabble and surprisingly not the best verse brimaz, sultai control has a really good answers to it, and all rabble decks are already packing a crap ton of answers to it, i really have no idea how rabble is in the uw/x heroic deck(barely ever get to see that deck to begin with) so i can't really speak on that mu, if i missed some archetype my bad.
Rabble has always been bad against most green decks, that's true, and it's perfectly fair to say he's not as good as he was a few weeks ago. I don't think being poorly-matched (quite possibly temporarily) in the current format is the same as being overrated; Channel Fireball's Standard power rankings have him falling, having been their no. 1 card in Standard a couple of weeks ago.
Yeah the fact most people continue to keep him in after sb'ed games in mu's where hes actually just pretty bad in general as a 4 of is what leads me to the over rated card part. Hes a must for only 2 decks i can think of, mono red/and dega with butcher. In the other decks i think there are probably better cards to MD at his slot at this point and think brimaz/monastery mentor for american/rw might just be better in general but most people are still stuck in awe over the idea of when he could just take over a game fairly easily.
And no most decks playing rabblemaster save for the rg/x kind have very few cards that are bigger than a x/3 stormbreath/sarkhan are about it since most don't play brimaz if playing rabble. Essentially just referring to american tempo/rw as its the 2 most popular decks overall for months now that plays rabble.
i have seen monastery mentor start to pick up in both decks over rabbles place for a bit but its just not going to catch on i take it before rabble rotates and i think rabbles position just keeps getting worse from here with DTK.
Yeah the fact most people continue to keep him in after sb'ed games in mu's where hes actually just pretty bad in general as a 4 of is what leads me to the over rated card part. Hes a must for only 2 decks i can think of, mono red/and dega with butcher. In the other decks i think there are probably better cards to MD at his slot at this point and think brimaz/monastery mentor for american/rw might just be better in general but most people are still stuck in awe over the idea of when he could just take over a game fairly easily.
And no most decks playing rabblemaster save for the rg/x kind have very few cards that are bigger than a x/3 stormbreath/sarkhan are about it since most don't play brimaz if playing rabble. Essentially just referring to american tempo/rw as its the 2 most popular decks overall for months now that plays rabble.
Therein lies the thing, though - the RW decks don't run many creatures at all apart from Rabblemaster, Stormbreath, and sometimes Seeker. They're burn and token decks, and Drown in Sorrow is better against tokens since those decks run 2-4 different types (Goblins and Soldiers, sometimes Warriors or Monks).
Did someone really mention Courser of Kruphix as overrated? LOL
You must not understand what the card actually does. It's card advantage + lifegain + tempo + a bear eater wall. Rewatch the last 20+ standard tournaments. Notice every time a player chose to kill Siege Rhino over Courser, they lost due to the card advantage generated by Courser. The players who win take care of Courser first. Then take care of any other threats later. That's how you know a card is good, when you need to get rid of it or you lose the race.
Did someone really mention Courser of Kruphix as overrated? LOL
You must not understand what the card actually does. It's card advantage + lifegain + tempo + a bear eater wall. Rewatch the last 20+ standard tournaments. Notice every time a player chose to kill Siege Rhino over Courser, they lost due to the card advantage generated by Courser. The players who win take care of Courser first. Then take care of any other threats later. That's how you know a card is good, when you need to get rid of it or you lose the race.
yeas i did mention courser and I stand by what i said.
i repeat, in case it wasn't clear, I'm not saying the card isn't good, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying that, in my personale experience, it's not as good as some says.
someone said rabblemaster, because every deck has a way of dealing with him. that for me is the point. if every deck needs a way to deal with a card, that means that card is very good and format defining, because everyone must include in his deck a way to deal with that card.
this does't happen for courser. for this reason I said it's overrated. but in saying that, i'm just saying that on a scale form 1 to 10 it's a 8 and not a 10
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Possibly it's a sleeper, but as far as I know it hasn't made any impact in older formats either, where it was also predicted to see a lot of use and no one plays Goblin Rabblemaster.
That is not entirely true.
In fact the card made a huge impact in Vintage
The deck is also on the rise in Modern by the way
Now it's questionable if he will ever do much in Standard though. There is just not the type of spell support that he needs in Standard and I can't imagine Wizards helping with that.
I think Ugin is very overrated. There are more decks playing him that shouldn't be. I've seen too many games where it seems like he comes down at the very last second, sweeps the board, and then the player still loses a few minutes later. I've played bug whip for several months now, and honestly, it's not as good as people think against it. The side effect of spending every turn to whip is that cards build up in hand, especially with a courser in play. I think people just go OMG when they crack an 8 mana $30 planeswalker and just jam into every deck regardless of how appropriate it is. It's the same thing with Garruk - I think I've been impressed with him exactly once since his release.
I also agree about monastery mentor - from the getgo it was obvious that soulfire grandmaster was going to have more of an impact, but it's hard for a card to backpeddle through perceived trends - it's bizarre to me that mentor is still at tcg avg of $20. It just seems like I'd always rather be playing Rabblemaster on 3 than the Mentor.
I disagree about Tasigur. The first day of new standard, I played with him in my whip deck. He performed so highly that I immediately bought more to play with. He's not seeing /that/ much play, so I'd really just call him 'rated' rather than 'overrated'.
And then that brings up the two most recent cards - outpost siege, and mastery of the unseen. I really like mastery. I have ever since I first saw it. But yeah, they hype train is really strong on it right now, and there's a lot of matchups where the g/w deck just doesn't do anything. Outpost siege is sort of in the same vein, but the difference is that there isn't a whole deck built around it - it's just a decent card. The problem is that it sometimes subliminally changes the way you play, playing suboptimal cards it reveals rather than taking the right line. In that sense, I think it is overplayed - in the way that people are playing the card without really knowing how to play with it, and they they get a lot of sub-par finishes (the same thing that's happening with g/w - it wins a gp and gets a lot of face time, so all of a sudden a lot of people flock to an overrepresented and underperforming deck)
Lastly, can I call the entire U/W heroic deck overplayed? There's nothing appealing about that deck at all.
I think Ugin is very overrated. There are more decks playing him that shouldn't be. I've seen too many games where it seems like he comes down at the very last second, sweeps the board, and then the player still loses a few minutes later. I've played bug whip for several months now, and honestly, it's not as good as people think against it.
I've had the same experience playing Whip - this makes me wonder, though, whether Ugin is overrated per se, or whether he's just a bad match for Whip. Ugin doesn't have a lot to do with the downturn in Whip's fortunes - Whip performs poorly in an aggro-dominated field, which was the case immediately after FR hit and the case immediately after Khans hit. The new breed of midrange decks aren't based around creature stalls that favour Whip decks' grind and card advantage, and a metagame that favours Drown in Sorrow as its answer to tokens and manifests is more hostile to Hornet Queen than one that uses Bile Blight. And sweepers in general aren't great against Whip decks, which can afford to avoid overcommiting to the board without threats like Ashiok or Kiora to deal with (assuming no Downfalls in hand to deal with them).
The side effect of spending every turn to whip is that cards build up in hand, especially with a courser in play. I think people just go OMG when they crack an 8 mana $30 planeswalker and just jam into every deck regardless of how appropriate it is. It's the same thing with Garruk - I think I've been impressed with him exactly once since his release.
It's very tempting to try and make Garruk work, though - who doesn't want to cram the board with beast tokens? And his lifegain can be surprisingly relevant.
Did someone really mention Courser of Kruphix as overrated? LOL
You must not understand what the card actually does. It's card advantage + lifegain + tempo + a bear eater wall. Rewatch the last 20+ standard tournaments. Notice every time a player chose to kill Siege Rhino over Courser, they lost due to the card advantage generated by Courser. The players who win take care of Courser first. Then take care of any other threats later. That's how you know a card is good, when you need to get rid of it or you lose the race.
yeas i did mention courser and I stand by what i said.
i repeat, in case it wasn't clear, I'm not saying the card isn't good, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying that, in my personale experience, it's not as good as some says.
someone said rabblemaster, because every deck has a way of dealing with him. that for me is the point. if every deck needs a way to deal with a card, that means that card is very good and format defining, because everyone must include in his deck a way to deal with that card.
this does't happen for courser. for this reason I said it's overrated. but in saying that, i'm just saying that on a scale form 1 to 10 it's a 8 and not a 10
I don't think Courser is overated because of the extreme value it can represent. What I find super frustrating with Courser is how terrible he/she is in multiples. I cut my coursers to 3 in almost all decks because I get so sick of seeing it after I have one on the board. A second 2/4 for 3 isn't all that incredible when you need to start pressuring the board.
Did someone really mention Courser of Kruphix as overrated? LOL
You must not understand what the card actually does. It's card advantage + lifegain + tempo + a bear eater wall. Rewatch the last 20+ standard tournaments. Notice every time a player chose to kill Siege Rhino over Courser, they lost due to the card advantage generated by Courser. The players who win take care of Courser first. Then take care of any other threats later. That's how you know a card is good, when you need to get rid of it or you lose the race.
yeas i did mention courser and I stand by what i said.
i repeat, in case it wasn't clear, I'm not saying the card isn't good, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying that, in my personale experience, it's not as good as some says.
Courser is not an easy card to evaluate on its own merits since it so often seems to be doing less for you than it is. But its record speaks for itself - given the length of time it's been dominant in the format as a 4-of, it's pretty inconceivable that no one's thought "hang on, maybe this card isn't as good as we all think it is" and tried running without it. In fact there was a brief period in Khans where it seemed a few green decks were dropping it, based on decklists on Wizards.com. But the card really is that important, and it came back very quickly and stayed there.
someone said rabblemaster, because every deck has a way of dealing with him. that for me is the point. if every deck needs a way to deal with a card, that means that card is very good and format defining, because everyone must include in his deck a way to deal with that card.
That's a very different type of card. Rabblemaster wins the game if unanswered, Courser doesn't. It just increases your chances of winning by other means. Also, Rabblemaster needs a 2-for-1 or a sweeper to kill, or at least targeted creature removal against a deck that may otherwise be low on creatures. Courser is a creature without any kind of evasion in decks crammed with creatures (most without any kind of evasion). So the cards you put in to deal with the rest of the opponent's deck work equally well against Courser.
All that said, there is one very big concession the metagame has made specifically to deal with Courser - it's the major reason Stoke the Flames is important for the red decks. Practically no other relevant card has exactly 4 toughness except for Stormbreath Dragon.
Note the title "most overrated card in Standard at the moment".
In Standard. At the moment.
The criticisms are fair on Mentor (He's great to watch on VSL but in Standard, Rabblemaster all day) and Tasigur.
For me, it's Sorin. For the flex spot in Abzan, I'd rather play a card that can generate advantage another way - probably Tasigur. Sorin usually comes down and on an empty board, creates the 2/2 body. Tasigur on an empty can usually draw you one card (or allow you to leave your mana up to play something). As that flex spot 1-of, it just feels better.
Pretty much every planeswalker in standard. They all start off at some redoculous price tag, have entire articles written about them, and end up being some niche role player. I think xenagos is the only exception right now. I believe that narset could be ok depending if control ever has time to get it online
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Pretty much every planeswalker in standard. They all start off at some redoculous price tag, have entire articles written about them, and end up being some niche role player. I think xenagos is the only exception right now. I believe that narset could be ok depending if control ever has time to get it online
I dunno, Ashiok is pretty crazy against a fair number of decks. Both he and Sorin can't be left unchecked, or else they'll generate way too much card advantage. Xenagos is in the same vein, in that he'll generate a ton of advantage if you just leave him be.
What deck doesn't have a 2-3 drop removal spell for this guy? I like this card a lot but recently, with the meta at where it is, I question it's worth.
Bile Blight
Drown in Sorrow
Lightning Strike
Magma Jet
Anger of the Gods
Abzan Charm (after a turn)
Hero's downfall
Stoke the flames
There is so much removal in a the game right now that kills things toughness 3 and lower. Yes there is the standard removal cards that hit a lot of things, but this is a 3 drop that mostly, casually dies by almost any removal without much effect.
Am I saying it's a bad card? No- that's the thing though. This card generates so much threat, that it is usually accompanied by other low toughness creatures. Making drown in sorrow and anger of the gods even more appealing. Not to mention if they have chump blockers or lifelinkers- (delver soulfayer, soulfire, seeker, etc.) You guarentee free life when you're trying to aggro. Without stoke to STOP attacks when you need it to- you're likely throwing away tokens, or multiples of Rabble.
I'm not saying its a bad card, just overrated. Brimaz is a better 3 drop right now, IMO. A little slower, but a lot stronger. Rabble isn't a spell either, so you don't get a Prowess trigger off of him. Again, not bad, just overrated. I've had a lot of success going to Soulfire, Seeker, and Butcher of the Horde as my creature 12.
Oh- and don't forget Ultimate price is coming back too.
I have to agree with most of this. Rabblemaster is certainly a good card, but I am running Monastery Mentor instead because unlike Rabblemaster, it can dodge Wild Slash, it can produce a token before Control decks can kill it at instant speed, its tokens can play defense if necessary, it is much stroger with Jeskai Charm, and it doesn't just suicide tokens pointlessly into Siege Rhinos and Coursers of Kruphix.
My pick for most overrated card would be Seeker of the Way. While it is good in some decks, it seems pretty bad in Jeskai. It is really only good if played on turn 2. On turn 3 you have better things to cast (Mantis Rider, Monastery Mentor, Goblin Rabblemaster, Brimaz) and if you cast it on turn 4 it would have been better to just cast a 4-drop like Ashcloud Phoenix since attacking for 3-4 damage and gaining some life on turn 5 isn't that amazing.
Curving out is still better than not curving out due to the way games play out. It's all about being the best at the mana cost not being a particularly good card.
Curving out is still better than not curving out due to the way games play out. It's all about being the best at the mana cost not being a particularly good card.
I'd say the best thing to do at that mana cost is Lightning Striking their creature or playing a tapland and casting Wild Slash. Heir is at least still decent after turn 2, but Seeker really isn't.
Sidisi 1.0, honestly think the card is pretty trash and its just getting love because the deck needs that affect not that its actually a good card. more so now than in the past with whisperwood printing...
all the 5 mana board wipes, just feel like crux and end hostilities are extremely poor given the complete rise of GW devotion and how bad it really is to cast verse it in comparison to ugin/perilous vault.(essentially devotion decks prior to whisperwood were fairly good to great mu's for control prior and now that they have moved away from 3-4 nissas vault/ugin just look generally better for answers)outside of gw devotion there is very few lists where a 5 mana wrath is better than a straight boardwipe abzan aggro is probably about it.
and lastly rabblemaster-i know this card puts up results but every time ive played against ive beaten it fairly easy even if it didn't draw an answer for 3 turns but managed to just find 2 potential blockers to just stall until i can draw more cards and kill it or just nullify its tokens. idk if they just draw extremely poor or if its really just best verse control and essentially shooed into every list as a 4 because control still exists and most people still refute to cut it post games...
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oh wow. I can stomach comments about Tasigur, but the fact is Courser of Kruphix is probably the best card in standard. It has enabled midrange-strategies since its printing and has seen play in Modern too. I can't think of a more format-defining card than Courser.
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What deck doesn't have a 2-3 drop removal spell for this guy? I like this card a lot but recently, with the meta at where it is, I question it's worth.
Bile Blight
Drown in Sorrow
Lightning Strike
Magma Jet
Anger of the Gods
Abzan Charm (after a turn)
Hero's downfall
Stoke the flames
There is so much removal in a the game right now that kills things toughness 3 and lower. Yes there is the standard removal cards that hit a lot of things, but this is a 3 drop that mostly, casually dies by almost any removal without much effect.
Am I saying it's a bad card? No- that's the thing though. This card generates so much threat, that it is usually accompanied by other low toughness creatures. Making drown in sorrow and anger of the gods even more appealing. Not to mention if they have chump blockers or lifelinkers- (delver soulfayer, soulfire, seeker, etc.) You guarentee free life when you're trying to aggro. Without stoke to STOP attacks when you need it to- you're likely throwing away tokens, or multiples of Rabble.
I'm not saying its a bad card, just overrated. Brimaz is a better 3 drop right now, IMO. A little slower, but a lot stronger. Rabble isn't a spell either, so you don't get a Prowess trigger off of him. Again, not bad, just overrated. I've had a lot of success going to Soulfire, Seeker, and Butcher of the Horde as my creature 12.
Oh- and don't forget Ultimate price is coming back too.
This is surely why people are suggesting it is overrated, if it's being overused in these decks but not performing. I'm not sure it isn't performing, and the competitive lists I've seen use it as a 2- or 3-of rather than a 4-of, but that's the argument being made.
I suspect people are underrating Tasigur because what he's doing isn't always that obvious, and he is very rarely a 4/5 for 1 unless drawn late enough that a 4/5 isn't a terribly relevant body (he's still good as a more typical 4/5 for 3-4). I think there's a temptation to feel he's not performing if what he's giving you isn't great, without considering that he's saving you wasted draws in those cases.
He was heavily overrated when he was first released, as evidenced by the fact that he was soon relegated to a 1-2 of in Abzan sideboards, but I haven't seen him played at all recently.
I think these are easy traps to fall into, though, and considering Sidisi and Tasigur overrated seems a symptom of the same mindset: either people who aren't seeing the long-term value of the card advantage they provide, or who expect format-defining cards to be the sorts of cards that actively win games by themselves (which Rabblemaster may be and Tasigur sometimes is, but the other two very rarely are). As a whip, and G/X player, I can sympathise with the feeling when drawing into Courser or Sidisi that they aren't cards you especially want to draw because they don't feel as if they do enough. Courser in particular is a bad card to draw late, but you need 4 in the deck to reliably get one early enough.
There's also the more subtle effect of being at the right point on the mana curve: Courser would be a fairly efficient card at 4 mana, but what makes it so important is that it's a 3-drop in a colour that plays 3-drops on turn 2, often has crowded slots higher on the mana curve, and has abilities that can be immediately relevant.
Case in point. Most of the above removal is spot removal that kills Rabble only, and/or is not removal you want to be forced to play against a 3-drop (especially against a deck full of Stormbreath Dragons). Being forced to run Bile Blight or Drown in Sorrow against it is a victory of its own, because these cards are too narrow to hit many other things in the same decks. Dealing with Rabblemaster is almost always trading down or evenly, or is a loss of card advantage because there will be more than one target to hit, and that's the best-case scenario when you have an answer right away (and anything can seem overrated if you happen to have an answer in hand when it comes down). Cards like Rabblemaster often don't win the game by attacking themselves or swarming with goblins, but because the Hero's Downfall or Stoke they eat leaves you defenceless against the dragon that comes down next turn.
Brimaz has a lot of drawbacks relative to Rabblemaster: a WW requirement forces heavier commitment to a colour not currently as well-positioned as red for pure aggro. As a legend he can't interact with other copies if you have more than one. But most importantly he's a lot slower since his tokens only come down when he attacks, and having to attack makes him vulnerable. He's more comparable to Mardu Strike Leader than Rabblemaster. He also dies to practically all the same spot removal except the red 2-3 damage spells, and doesn't force the opponent to build around defeating him with conditional removal like Bile Blight.
The argument is rabble just isn't as good a card in this format as he once was; outside of control decks and potentially the mirror(aka red decks playing rabble). all g/x devotion decks create too many blockers on a reasonable draw for rabble to be able to push, junk aggros threats all match up very well verse rabble and surprisingly not the best verse brimaz, sultai control has a really good answers to it, and all rabble decks are already packing a crap ton of answers to it, i really have no idea how rabble is in the uw/x heroic deck(barely ever get to see that deck to begin with) so i can't really speak on that mu, if i missed some archetype my bad.
That's true, but in the decks where Rabblemaster shines it's often killing Rabblemaster and nothing else (save Jeskai tokens, but there the tokens and rabble can grow to big to kill with it). It's not that Bile Blight wouldn't be in the format without Rabblemaster, it's that you wouldn't be bringing it in against that deck. The other matchups you mention are much better places to play this card.
In fact this is something I've seen pros mention: Rabblemaster is usually sideboarded out after game 1, because he's a must-answer threat that demands the opponent side in removal to deal with him in case he isn't boarded out, but that removal is often dead when he is.
Rabble has always been bad against most green decks, that's true, and it's perfectly fair to say he's not as good as he was a few weeks ago. I don't think being poorly-matched (quite possibly temporarily) in the current format is the same as being overrated; Channel Fireball's Standard power rankings have him falling, having been their no. 1 card in Standard a couple of weeks ago.
And no most decks playing rabblemaster save for the rg/x kind have very few cards that are bigger than a x/3 stormbreath/sarkhan are about it since most don't play brimaz if playing rabble. Essentially just referring to american tempo/rw as its the 2 most popular decks overall for months now that plays rabble.
i have seen monastery mentor start to pick up in both decks over rabbles place for a bit but its just not going to catch on i take it before rabble rotates and i think rabbles position just keeps getting worse from here with DTK.
Therein lies the thing, though - the RW decks don't run many creatures at all apart from Rabblemaster, Stormbreath, and sometimes Seeker. They're burn and token decks, and Drown in Sorrow is better against tokens since those decks run 2-4 different types (Goblins and Soldiers, sometimes Warriors or Monks).
You must not understand what the card actually does. It's card advantage + lifegain + tempo + a bear eater wall. Rewatch the last 20+ standard tournaments. Notice every time a player chose to kill Siege Rhino over Courser, they lost due to the card advantage generated by Courser. The players who win take care of Courser first. Then take care of any other threats later. That's how you know a card is good, when you need to get rid of it or you lose the race.
yeas i did mention courser and I stand by what i said.
i repeat, in case it wasn't clear, I'm not saying the card isn't good, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying that, in my personale experience, it's not as good as some says.
someone said rabblemaster, because every deck has a way of dealing with him. that for me is the point. if every deck needs a way to deal with a card, that means that card is very good and format defining, because everyone must include in his deck a way to deal with that card.
this does't happen for courser. for this reason I said it's overrated. but in saying that, i'm just saying that on a scale form 1 to 10 it's a 8 and not a 10
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
That is not entirely true.
In fact the card made a huge impact in Vintage
The deck is also on the rise in Modern by the way
Now it's questionable if he will ever do much in Standard though. There is just not the type of spell support that he needs in Standard and I can't imagine Wizards helping with that.
I also agree about monastery mentor - from the getgo it was obvious that soulfire grandmaster was going to have more of an impact, but it's hard for a card to backpeddle through perceived trends - it's bizarre to me that mentor is still at tcg avg of $20. It just seems like I'd always rather be playing Rabblemaster on 3 than the Mentor.
I disagree about Tasigur. The first day of new standard, I played with him in my whip deck. He performed so highly that I immediately bought more to play with. He's not seeing /that/ much play, so I'd really just call him 'rated' rather than 'overrated'.
And then that brings up the two most recent cards - outpost siege, and mastery of the unseen. I really like mastery. I have ever since I first saw it. But yeah, they hype train is really strong on it right now, and there's a lot of matchups where the g/w deck just doesn't do anything. Outpost siege is sort of in the same vein, but the difference is that there isn't a whole deck built around it - it's just a decent card. The problem is that it sometimes subliminally changes the way you play, playing suboptimal cards it reveals rather than taking the right line. In that sense, I think it is overplayed - in the way that people are playing the card without really knowing how to play with it, and they they get a lot of sub-par finishes (the same thing that's happening with g/w - it wins a gp and gets a lot of face time, so all of a sudden a lot of people flock to an overrepresented and underperforming deck)
Lastly, can I call the entire U/W heroic deck overplayed? There's nothing appealing about that deck at all.
I've had the same experience playing Whip - this makes me wonder, though, whether Ugin is overrated per se, or whether he's just a bad match for Whip. Ugin doesn't have a lot to do with the downturn in Whip's fortunes - Whip performs poorly in an aggro-dominated field, which was the case immediately after FR hit and the case immediately after Khans hit. The new breed of midrange decks aren't based around creature stalls that favour Whip decks' grind and card advantage, and a metagame that favours Drown in Sorrow as its answer to tokens and manifests is more hostile to Hornet Queen than one that uses Bile Blight. And sweepers in general aren't great against Whip decks, which can afford to avoid overcommiting to the board without threats like Ashiok or Kiora to deal with (assuming no Downfalls in hand to deal with them).
It's very tempting to try and make Garruk work, though - who doesn't want to cram the board with beast tokens? And his lifegain can be surprisingly relevant.
I don't think Courser is overated because of the extreme value it can represent. What I find super frustrating with Courser is how terrible he/she is in multiples. I cut my coursers to 3 in almost all decks because I get so sick of seeing it after I have one on the board. A second 2/4 for 3 isn't all that incredible when you need to start pressuring the board.
Courser is not an easy card to evaluate on its own merits since it so often seems to be doing less for you than it is. But its record speaks for itself - given the length of time it's been dominant in the format as a 4-of, it's pretty inconceivable that no one's thought "hang on, maybe this card isn't as good as we all think it is" and tried running without it. In fact there was a brief period in Khans where it seemed a few green decks were dropping it, based on decklists on Wizards.com. But the card really is that important, and it came back very quickly and stayed there.
That's a very different type of card. Rabblemaster wins the game if unanswered, Courser doesn't. It just increases your chances of winning by other means. Also, Rabblemaster needs a 2-for-1 or a sweeper to kill, or at least targeted creature removal against a deck that may otherwise be low on creatures. Courser is a creature without any kind of evasion in decks crammed with creatures (most without any kind of evasion). So the cards you put in to deal with the rest of the opponent's deck work equally well against Courser.
All that said, there is one very big concession the metagame has made specifically to deal with Courser - it's the major reason Stoke the Flames is important for the red decks. Practically no other relevant card has exactly 4 toughness except for Stormbreath Dragon.
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In Standard. At the moment.
The criticisms are fair on Mentor (He's great to watch on VSL but in Standard, Rabblemaster all day) and Tasigur.
For me, it's Sorin. For the flex spot in Abzan, I'd rather play a card that can generate advantage another way - probably Tasigur. Sorin usually comes down and on an empty board, creates the 2/2 body. Tasigur on an empty can usually draw you one card (or allow you to leave your mana up to play something). As that flex spot 1-of, it just feels better.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I dunno, Ashiok is pretty crazy against a fair number of decks. Both he and Sorin can't be left unchecked, or else they'll generate way too much card advantage. Xenagos is in the same vein, in that he'll generate a ton of advantage if you just leave him be.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I have to agree with most of this. Rabblemaster is certainly a good card, but I am running Monastery Mentor instead because unlike Rabblemaster, it can dodge Wild Slash, it can produce a token before Control decks can kill it at instant speed, its tokens can play defense if necessary, it is much stroger with Jeskai Charm, and it doesn't just suicide tokens pointlessly into Siege Rhinos and Coursers of Kruphix.
My pick for most overrated card would be Seeker of the Way. While it is good in some decks, it seems pretty bad in Jeskai. It is really only good if played on turn 2. On turn 3 you have better things to cast (Mantis Rider, Monastery Mentor, Goblin Rabblemaster, Brimaz) and if you cast it on turn 4 it would have been better to just cast a 4-drop like Ashcloud Phoenix since attacking for 3-4 damage and gaining some life on turn 5 isn't that amazing.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Curving out is still better than not curving out due to the way games play out. It's all about being the best at the mana cost not being a particularly good card.
I'd say the best thing to do at that mana cost is Lightning Striking their creature or playing a tapland and casting Wild Slash. Heir is at least still decent after turn 2, but Seeker really isn't.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.