I know it would be very hard to make, but i just think the vast majority of new cards are just so underpowered. I've been playing Legacy Cube Draft on Mtgo and its absolutely amazing. So many archetypes, so many powerful cards, yet all are in balance. Why cant standard be like this?
It would also lead to a very swift butchering of the game. Standard controls a large portion of the influx of new cards. Unless you plan to turn standard into 90% reprints, 10% new stuff, making it as powerful as legacy cube would result in modern getting an influx of legacy power cards en masse and with various similar cards soon doing the same jobs which will lead to combo consistency which will spill over into legacy too. You like cube so play cube. Standard doesn't have to be like that. What you're probably asking for is a quasi modern masters. Legacy cube masters or something like that. But then wouldn't you just cube instead?
It's more difficult to maintain proper balance. And even if well maintained what ends up happening is generally a few cards are heads above the rest. In small card pool like Standard it forces specific pillars. Basically it generally limits the format to fewer decks and individual cards that are powerful enough in multiple decks go way up in price. The last time we really had close to that power level was Zendikar. Both Alara Zendikar and Zendikar Scars of Mirrodin were very high power Standard formats. In both of those formats there were maybe like 3-4 decks that were actually reasonable to play and these decks were anywhere from $700 to $1200. They can keep most of the power out of Modern by making stuff that matters T4 or later but enough redundancy of things does eventually push if it's good enough. I mean it's been a while since I saw Lotus Cobra in Modern (outside of fringe play) but it was one of the pillars of those formats. But having formats which revolve around moderate(not extreme) ramp is only one possible Standard format. They have to keep things interesting. I mean we haven't even had Birds yet alone a Noble Hierarch for a couple years so they are clearly trying to dial things down.
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Standard has a lot more new players then Legacy or even Modern. People already complain about the Jeskai Ascendancy Combo deck, add more powerful cards and you'd completely turn new players away from the Standard format.
Standard has a lot more new players then Legacy or even Modern. People already complain about the Jeskai Ascendancy Combo deck, add more powerful cards and you'd completely turn new players away from the Standard formatgame.
Fixed.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Yes, Standard is indeed supposed to be the "balanced" constructed format. Yet they regularly allow terribly unfair cards like Jace the Mind Sculptor, Snapcaster Mage, and Delver of Secrets be legal in it. Legacy cards are "unfair", but a deck that stalls and kills everything until it casts Elspeth and wins by default is somehow fair. I think we might be surprised if we could put aside our preconceptions about formats for a while and look at what the cards and decks are actually literally doing, without the received idea that Standard is "fair" and old cards are "unfair".
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
Yes, Standard is indeed supposed to be the "balanced" constructed format. Yet they regularly allow terribly unfair cards like Jace the Mind Sculptor, Snapcaster Mage, and Delver of Secrets be legal in it. Legacy cards are "unfair", but a deck that stalls and kills everything until it casts Elspeth and wins by default is somehow fair. I think we might be surprised if we could put aside our preconceptions about formats for a while and look at what the cards and decks are actually literally doing, without the received idea that Standard is "fair" and old cards are "unfair".
JTMS got banned. Nobody's arguing that Cawblade was "fair".
And was Delver that good in Standard? I wasn't playing Standard back then, but MtGTop8 doesn't seem to be reporting any Delver decks with more than a 1% meta share in either Scars/Innistrad or Innistrad/RtR.
Keep in mind that Ponder was reprinted in a Standard-legal set while it was restricted in Vintage (I believe it had been restricted by then, at least). Some cards are balanced in Standard and degenerate in other formats.
Delver was the best deck in standard after innistrad and dark ascension with ease. I was there and it was pretty much caw blade in terms of it being the best deck and was the PTQ weapon of choice back then. ISD/RTR was completely different. They didn't have ponder then and the meta shifted a bunch.
Standard is for new players or at least caters to them the most as more players = more money for hasbro/WotC. If there were more combo decks like dragonstorm/ascendancy in standard it would drive people away.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Beyond having new vs. old player considerations, it's great to have formats with different power levels. I enjoy Modern, EDH, and Standard, and I like how different the power levels are.
Yes, Standard is indeed supposed to be the "balanced" constructed format. Yet they regularly allow terribly unfair cards like Jace the Mind Sculptor, Snapcaster Mage, and Delver of Secrets be legal in it. Legacy cards are "unfair", but a deck that stalls and kills everything until it casts Elspeth and wins by default is somehow fair. I think we might be surprised if we could put aside our preconceptions about formats for a while and look at what the cards and decks are actually literally doing, without the received idea that Standard is "fair" and old cards are "unfair".
The second part of my post was about keeping it interesting. They will regularly print stuff to push the edges in different ways. As another poster pointed out Khans has had a huge effect on eternal formats. I don't think a set has affected Vintage this much immediately in ages. Arguably most sets in Zendikar and Scars had this sort of effect in Legacy. But because of the timing and cost of spells in the same way it's quite possible if they push cheap general removal or ramp to keep powerful cards in check like they attempted with Zendikar, they can do the opposite and create cards that could be good eternally and almost have minimal to no impact in standard. Lodestone Golem was huge benefit to Shop decks in Vintage but saw almost zero Standard play. The Delve mechanic is a perfect example where the CA and cost of spells keep it reasonable in Standard but amazing eternally (most graveyard interactions do this.. think even Deathrite Shaman).
When people talk about the power of Legacy Cube quite often it's not the actual power capability of cards(in a vaccuum) but the perceived sequences of powerful effects within a short time window. It's that the game never drags or stalls out unless it's been the most balanced game ever but any card off the top of the deck on either side probably just wins it instantly. Or maybe from a control perspective, you can react to something that would kill you on T3 straight up. It's the timing. Like Lotus Cobra isn't good enough for most eternal formats, but when you were playing against Mythic Conscription in Standard the raw quality of cards definitely felt like something you'd expect from an eternal format (probably more Modern than Legacy). This sort of power level in small card pools is a bit of an illusion though since it is the difference in power that facilitates it. Whereas more realistically it's a card like Preordain that might add the most power level to a format but flies by fairly innocuously. Card quality filtering in a sense is only as good as the cards you can find (and potentially cast on the same turn). So for all the Treasure Cruises or Dig through Times, unless you are casting them consistently on T3 it won't feel as powerful as Legacy etc.. Obviously a card that plays off it's synergy (the true measure of power level, even in a vacuum is basically just a notion of perceived synergy with an imagined card pool) is where real power is, so limiting those interactions can keep a card that is extremely powerful completely in check in Standard. In so how powerful something is in an eternal format has no bearing to how powerful a Standard format feels. I mean obviously if a card is powerful enough it will find some level of interactivity that will push it to the forefront but it is completely up to the card pool, and with enough consideration Wizards could make a format where the best conceivable card is not good enough to play (although this would take considerable warping of the card pool).
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Delver was the best deck in standard after innistrad and dark ascension with ease. I was there and it was pretty much caw blade in terms of it being the best deck and was the PTQ weapon of choice back then. ISD/RTR was completely different. They didn't have ponder then and the meta shifted a bunch.
Standard is for new players or at least caters to them the most as more players = more money for hasbro/WotC. If there were more combo decks like dragonstorm/ascendancy in standard it would drive people away.
Delver was no where close to the % of the field that Cawblade put up.
When cards have such high power level it actually makes a lot of games uneven and not interesting. Just like in standard when one player draws all their Siege Rhinos and the other player doesn't. Cards of lower power level lead to more interesting gameplay.
% of the field =/= Best deck in the format. Talked to several skilled people during that time about the best deck and it was delver. People were quite afraid of the turn 1 delver turn 2 leak turn 3 geist turn 4 snapcaster leak. Or just throw one vapor snag in there. The deck was absurd in terms of how powerful it was for a standard deck. In terms of win % delver was the best deck then and people hated it.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
% of the field =/= Best deck in the format. Talked to several skilled people during that time about the best deck and it was delver. People were quite afraid of the turn 1 delver turn 2 leak turn 3 geist turn 4 snapcaster leak. Or just throw one vapor snag in there. The deck was absurd in terms of how powerful it was for a standard deck. In terms of win % delver was the best deck then and people hated it.
You're not telling me anything that I haven't already experienced. While Delver was good; it wasn't on the level of Cawblade in any manner. There were a couple decks like Infect and Naya Pod that at a minimum gave Delver absolute fits and was actually decent against the rest of the field. Any anti Cawblade decks pretty much got their teeth kicked in by Valkut.
Also, % of the field was significant because that was kind of the final nail in the coffin for Cawblade. It was putting up 30%+ of the overall meta game and you played Cawblade mirrors all day long.
Cawblade was actively lowering attendance at PTQs and such a la affinity in original mirrodin standard.
Anti caw blade decks did not work in terms of beating caw blade. The deck was simply too good in terms of the cards it had access to. Caw blade was one of the greatest decks ever made with ease in terms of playing a 'fair' game of magic. Sure delver wasn't on the level of caw blade because nothing got banned from it but it was still overpowered considering it had ponder, mana leak, snapcaster, and delver/cards that should have never been printed/reprinted into standard. The FFL simply didn't notice that ponder snapcaster/delver combo and that's what tied the deck together. Ponder is banned in all the formats except legacy and restricted in vintage. Pretty insane magic card. Snapcaster is also insane. 3/2 flier for U is insane. The whole deck was insane even vapor snag/one of the most innnocuous cards ever printed was insane in the context of that deck and its gameplan.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Ever watch dragonball z? This game has existed for 20 years. How long can they keep increasing power level of cards without making the game an unplayable mess? Legacy is the highest power 'not broken' format. Cube tends to use all the most powerful cards in the format.
Cawblade was actively lowering attendance at PTQs and such a la affinity in original mirrodin standard.
Anti caw blade decks did not work in terms of beating caw blade. The deck was simply too good in terms of the cards it had access to. Caw blade was one of the greatest decks ever made with ease in terms of playing a 'fair' game of magic. Sure delver wasn't on the level of caw blade because nothing got banned from it but it was still overpowered considering it had ponder, mana leak, snapcaster, and delver/cards that should have never been printed/reprinted into standard. The FFL simply didn't notice that ponder snapcaster/delver combo and that's what tied the deck together. Ponder is banned in all the formats except legacy and restricted in vintage. Pretty insane magic card. Snapcaster is also insane. 3/2 flier for U is insane. The whole deck was insane even vapor snag/one of the most innnocuous cards ever printed was insane in the context of that deck and its gameplan.
During one Pro Tour event during Zendi/Scars, 7 of the top 8 decks, and 13 of the top 16 decks, were running the exact same 75 card Caw-Blade list. It was the straw that broke the camel's back and forced the bans. Delver never reached that level of power. It was the best deck of that standard. It wasn't so bad that opponent's had zero chance like Caw-Blade was.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I think some Legacy cards can come into Standard without warping Standard or being completely worthless. It a delicate line to cross.
Further, like other comparisons done by people, you are taking some of the best from the past and comparing it the weakest of the new stuff. In Allainces, you have FoW and Lake of the Dead. The vast majority of the set is unplayable. Weatherlight has some great card, same as Urza's Saga. However, most of the cards in that set never see the light of play outside Limited, which is the same as the newest sets.
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Fixed.
Yes, Standard is indeed supposed to be the "balanced" constructed format. Yet they regularly allow terribly unfair cards like Jace the Mind Sculptor, Snapcaster Mage, and Delver of Secrets be legal in it. Legacy cards are "unfair", but a deck that stalls and kills everything until it casts Elspeth and wins by default is somehow fair. I think we might be surprised if we could put aside our preconceptions about formats for a while and look at what the cards and decks are actually literally doing, without the received idea that Standard is "fair" and old cards are "unfair".
JTMS got banned. Nobody's arguing that Cawblade was "fair".
And was Delver that good in Standard? I wasn't playing Standard back then, but MtGTop8 doesn't seem to be reporting any Delver decks with more than a 1% meta share in either Scars/Innistrad or Innistrad/RtR.
Keep in mind that Ponder was reprinted in a Standard-legal set while it was restricted in Vintage (I believe it had been restricted by then, at least). Some cards are balanced in Standard and degenerate in other formats.
Standard is for new players or at least caters to them the most as more players = more money for hasbro/WotC. If there were more combo decks like dragonstorm/ascendancy in standard it would drive people away.
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cards from khans have totally altered all eternal formats
the cards right now are decidedly as powerful as legacy cube - there's just not as many of them because standard is a limited pool
The second part of my post was about keeping it interesting. They will regularly print stuff to push the edges in different ways. As another poster pointed out Khans has had a huge effect on eternal formats. I don't think a set has affected Vintage this much immediately in ages. Arguably most sets in Zendikar and Scars had this sort of effect in Legacy. But because of the timing and cost of spells in the same way it's quite possible if they push cheap general removal or ramp to keep powerful cards in check like they attempted with Zendikar, they can do the opposite and create cards that could be good eternally and almost have minimal to no impact in standard. Lodestone Golem was huge benefit to Shop decks in Vintage but saw almost zero Standard play. The Delve mechanic is a perfect example where the CA and cost of spells keep it reasonable in Standard but amazing eternally (most graveyard interactions do this.. think even Deathrite Shaman).
When people talk about the power of Legacy Cube quite often it's not the actual power capability of cards(in a vaccuum) but the perceived sequences of powerful effects within a short time window. It's that the game never drags or stalls out unless it's been the most balanced game ever but any card off the top of the deck on either side probably just wins it instantly. Or maybe from a control perspective, you can react to something that would kill you on T3 straight up. It's the timing. Like Lotus Cobra isn't good enough for most eternal formats, but when you were playing against Mythic Conscription in Standard the raw quality of cards definitely felt like something you'd expect from an eternal format (probably more Modern than Legacy). This sort of power level in small card pools is a bit of an illusion though since it is the difference in power that facilitates it. Whereas more realistically it's a card like Preordain that might add the most power level to a format but flies by fairly innocuously. Card quality filtering in a sense is only as good as the cards you can find (and potentially cast on the same turn). So for all the Treasure Cruises or Dig through Times, unless you are casting them consistently on T3 it won't feel as powerful as Legacy etc.. Obviously a card that plays off it's synergy (the true measure of power level, even in a vacuum is basically just a notion of perceived synergy with an imagined card pool) is where real power is, so limiting those interactions can keep a card that is extremely powerful completely in check in Standard. In so how powerful something is in an eternal format has no bearing to how powerful a Standard format feels. I mean obviously if a card is powerful enough it will find some level of interactivity that will push it to the forefront but it is completely up to the card pool, and with enough consideration Wizards could make a format where the best conceivable card is not good enough to play (although this would take considerable warping of the card pool).
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Delver was no where close to the % of the field that Cawblade put up.
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You're not telling me anything that I haven't already experienced. While Delver was good; it wasn't on the level of Cawblade in any manner. There were a couple decks like Infect and Naya Pod that at a minimum gave Delver absolute fits and was actually decent against the rest of the field. Any anti Cawblade decks pretty much got their teeth kicked in by Valkut.
Also, % of the field was significant because that was kind of the final nail in the coffin for Cawblade. It was putting up 30%+ of the overall meta game and you played Cawblade mirrors all day long.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Anti caw blade decks did not work in terms of beating caw blade. The deck was simply too good in terms of the cards it had access to. Caw blade was one of the greatest decks ever made with ease in terms of playing a 'fair' game of magic. Sure delver wasn't on the level of caw blade because nothing got banned from it but it was still overpowered considering it had ponder, mana leak, snapcaster, and delver/cards that should have never been printed/reprinted into standard. The FFL simply didn't notice that ponder snapcaster/delver combo and that's what tied the deck together. Ponder is banned in all the formats except legacy and restricted in vintage. Pretty insane magic card. Snapcaster is also insane. 3/2 flier for U is insane. The whole deck was insane even vapor snag/one of the most innnocuous cards ever printed was insane in the context of that deck and its gameplan.
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Also it does. See the fetches,treasure cruise, etc
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During one Pro Tour event during Zendi/Scars, 7 of the top 8 decks, and 13 of the top 16 decks, were running the exact same 75 card Caw-Blade list. It was the straw that broke the camel's back and forced the bans. Delver never reached that level of power. It was the best deck of that standard. It wasn't so bad that opponent's had zero chance like Caw-Blade was.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Further, like other comparisons done by people, you are taking some of the best from the past and comparing it the weakest of the new stuff. In Allainces, you have FoW and Lake of the Dead. The vast majority of the set is unplayable. Weatherlight has some great card, same as Urza's Saga. However, most of the cards in that set never see the light of play outside Limited, which is the same as the newest sets.