Its an overpowered card
for 1W you get and Lighning Helix
for BG you get a 4/5 body on standard
and then, Trample just for free
All this makes the Rhino OP in standard, its the combination of all this things:
- you can be at 7 life, but the Rhino let you at 4 and swing by 4 - win
- you can has a lot of goblin tokens or elspeth tokens by chumpblock him, but its trample dont deserve to block
- also has /5 of thougness so you cant kill it by a Brimaz blocks, or a Mardu Charm, or a lighning + token ...
- Rhino dies to Heros Downfall and Cracking Doom ... no more
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Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
I feel the real issue with siege rhinos is that it has an etb ability, and a good one. There always seems to be that one card from every set that has a really good etb effect and every one starts building around it because it's ability makes building around it easy. Problem is we don't have that in all the clans. Sidisi is the only other etb getting significant play, Jeskai ascendancy is starting to catch on now. Temur and mardu do not and unfortunately so are probably the best colors to probably beat Abzan right now. Maybe next set will shore this up but this thing usually happens when a powerful etb is released early in a set.
Change your deck to beat rhino, play it yourself if you are convinced it's unbeatable or accept your deck loses to it and hope to dodge it. It's just a solid midrange card not a format warping midrange monstrosity like Thragtusk.
I mean, if the ETB ability is really what makes it so tough to beat, then Hushwing Griff is kind of an answer to it and some of the whip decks out there. Problem is, what deck would "adapt" and run Hushwings? Jeskai Tokens doesn't really want it as it doesn't make tokens or trigger ascendacy and the deck doesn't really want to hold up three mana.
I mean, if the ETB ability is really what makes it so tough to beat, then Hushwing Griff is kind of an answer to it and some of the whip decks out there. Problem is, what deck would "adapt" and run Hushwings? Jeskai Tokens doesn't really want it as it doesn't make tokens or trigger ascendacy and the deck doesn't really want to hold up three mana.
On top of that, in my experience playing Abzan, Griff doesn't do much to fight it. It comes down to the opponent playing a 2/1 flying for 3 and I'm playing a 4/5 trample for 4. Is seems to me Griff doesn't do enough to stop Abzan, and it's often a "wasted" slot if all you're doing with it is tangling with Rhino. Griff may be a good card, but it needs to do more than stop the Rhino for it to be any good against Abzan. Helping against Hornet Queen is relevant for sure.
It's a creature. A really good one. Like all good creatures, if it's heavily played make sure your deck can answer it. That said.. he is super annoying and totally worthy of having an entire thread dedicated to venting about what a jerk he is.
I'll GLADLY take him over the old first turn dark ritual into hypnotic specter, second turn hymn to tourach nonsense from back when I started playing.
I have ZERO Rhinos at my FNM. Kinda wish there were as I'm sultai reanimator. Lot's of Mardu Midrange/Control and Jeskai or Mono Red aggro decks. Still trying out how to beat Mardu control (post sideboard)with Sultai... I'd take Rhino's anyday.
It's a creature. A really good one. Like all good creatures, if it's heavily played make sure your deck can answer it. That said.. he is super annoying and totally worthy of having an entire thread dedicated to venting about what a jerk he is.
I'll GLADLY take him over the old first turn dark ritual into hypnotic specter, second turn hymn to tourach nonsense from back when I started playing.
That sounds amazingly fun... for the person destroying your hand.
It's a creature. A really good one. Like all good creatures, if it's heavily played make sure your deck can answer it. That said.. he is super annoying and totally worthy of having an entire thread dedicated to venting about what a jerk he is.
I'll GLADLY take him over the old first turn dark ritual into hypnotic specter, second turn hymn to tourach nonsense from back when I started playing.
That sounds amazingly fun... for the person destroying your hand.
Full disclosure... I was the one doing it. I kept it fair by dropping necropotence on turn 3, though.
I don't think you know what that word means. It's either that or you've never played in a truly oppressive meta.
Tolarian Academy was degenerate.
Memory Jar was degenerate.
Skullclamp was degenerate.
Necropotence was degenerate.
Jace the Mind Sculptor, while in standard, was degenerate.
Siege Rhino is just another big dumb midrange beater.
Also, you can't make the argument "If X card didn't exist, then the meta wouldn't evolve this way," because you could make that same argument about every single card that's standard playable. Cards existing is what makes a meta. If any particular centerpiece card didn't exist, then obviously the decks built around them wouldn't be seen.
Good cards are always going to exist. Certain cards will always take precedence in a format. That doesn't equate to being degenerate or broken or whatever you want to call them.
When a Siege Rhino deck becomes the only viable option for any competitive deck in Standard, then I'll be willing to entertain this conversation.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
To be honest I find him a minor threat, annoying, but minor. I've faced many abzan decks in my store and I only lost against the aggro builds, ones with Siege Rhino and even those paired with Whip of Erebos can't beat me most times(Temur midrange is my deck btw).
I remember one guy commented, "Man, you literally played out seige rhino 5 times this game and you still haven't won." He had played 3, and whipped back two after I killed them.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
I run Abzan aggro and even against Mardu aggro it's a tough matchup for them. The only thing I lose against reliably is Boss Sligh. Even I admit that Siege Rhino is extremely overpowered. When I have rhino out turn 4 and attach a Herald of Torment on it turn 5, it's extremely hard to win that match even if they have steady removal. I run Brimaz and several two drop threats like Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion and they usually waste their removal on those.
It makes me sad a little inside when I plop that Herald of Torment down and they think they're safe with a beefy creature or have a powerful planeswalker. Because it is extremely OP and the deck I'm running doesn't feel like it should be this tough to beat.
Rhino is a good card. Broken? Probably not. It is just very well positioned right now because it happened to exist in a wedge with all good cards (caryatid, sorin, courser, abzan charm).
Nyx-Fleece Ram, anyone? 5 toughness walls it hard and the lifegain is nothing to scoff at. I run a playset in my board (4c Ascendancy) and it makes Abzan very unhappy (in my case it also adds another enchantment and baits hate away from my combo, but that isn't relevant for everyone).
There is easily a conspiracy with Siege Rhino this Standard. The game is getting more and more popular, new players are coming out of the woodwork. So, why not just make the biggest dumbest creature ever in Siege Rhino, then bad players can win games, too, and feel good about themselves. Thus, they then buy more cards and continue their Magic hobby. The fetchland reprints in this set is to keep the older players around. Oooo fetches, dont look at the ridiculously undercosted 4/5 trampler that drains you for 3.
Its impossible to pick out one thing that is broken about Rhino, is it the 5 toughness?, the drain for 3?, the trample? Its all of them, the card would be fine if any one of those was changed.
Yes, i'm coming off of a game where i lose due to 3 Rhino's, turn 4,5,6. Yes, this has happened before. Yes, everytime it is usually against a guy who misplays like crazy, but then just jams 3 Rhino's and wins.
/vent
There isn't much room to misplay turns 1-3 in this format other than land sequencing. But if they land Rhinos turns 4, 5, 6 then that means they sequenced correctly. You'll have to explain the misplays because I don't see much room for your opponent to be misplaying when they can drop the most powerful card in the format consistently and on curve.
You, on the other hand, likely had plenty of opportunity for misplay...
It's crazy powerful, but just swing into it with a Mantis Rider (or whatever) and a Lightning Strike. OK, they 2 for 1 ya.. sucks but oh well. It's the best thing they've got going. Hopefully you're not seeing more than 1 in a game anyway.
Rhino is a good card. Broken? Probably not. It is just very well positioned right now because it happened to exist in a wedge with all good cards (caryatid, sorin, courser, abzan charm).
Are you kidding me come on the fetchlands are the most overpowered card in standard. You get to search for a basic land card UNTAPPED! Thats broken we need to ban fetchlands also all kill spells like heros downfall. Also siege rhinos. Dont forget about scrylands there overpowered as well. Getting to know your draw thats overpowered. We should just have 1 card in standard and that should be stormcrow.
Well BG/x in Modern also houses many of the best cards in the format. Makes sense that it shows up there too. Especially with the influx of Delver and Burn decks who try to get your life low fast.
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Modern: UW Control
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for 1W you get and Lighning Helix
for BG you get a 4/5 body on standard
and then, Trample just for free
All this makes the Rhino OP in standard, its the combination of all this things:
- you can be at 7 life, but the Rhino let you at 4 and swing by 4 - win
- you can has a lot of goblin tokens or elspeth tokens by chumpblock him, but its trample dont deserve to block
- also has /5 of thougness so you cant kill it by a Brimaz blocks, or a Mardu Charm, or a lighning + token ...
- Rhino dies to Heros Downfall and Cracking Doom ... no more
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
On top of that, in my experience playing Abzan, Griff doesn't do much to fight it. It comes down to the opponent playing a 2/1 flying for 3 and I'm playing a 4/5 trample for 4. Is seems to me Griff doesn't do enough to stop Abzan, and it's often a "wasted" slot if all you're doing with it is tangling with Rhino. Griff may be a good card, but it needs to do more than stop the Rhino for it to be any good against Abzan. Helping against Hornet Queen is relevant for sure.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
I'll GLADLY take him over the old first turn dark ritual into hypnotic specter, second turn hymn to tourach nonsense from back when I started playing.
That sounds amazingly fun... for the person destroying your hand.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
stormbreath is probably my most hated creature to have cast against me
Full disclosure... I was the one doing it. I kept it fair by dropping necropotence on turn 3, though.
I don't think you know what that word means. It's either that or you've never played in a truly oppressive meta.
Tolarian Academy was degenerate.
Memory Jar was degenerate.
Skullclamp was degenerate.
Necropotence was degenerate.
Jace the Mind Sculptor, while in standard, was degenerate.
Siege Rhino is just another big dumb midrange beater.
Also, you can't make the argument "If X card didn't exist, then the meta wouldn't evolve this way," because you could make that same argument about every single card that's standard playable. Cards existing is what makes a meta. If any particular centerpiece card didn't exist, then obviously the decks built around them wouldn't be seen.
Good cards are always going to exist. Certain cards will always take precedence in a format. That doesn't equate to being degenerate or broken or whatever you want to call them.
When a Siege Rhino deck becomes the only viable option for any competitive deck in Standard, then I'll be willing to entertain this conversation.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I remember one guy commented, "Man, you literally played out seige rhino 5 times this game and you still haven't won." He had played 3, and whipped back two after I killed them.
It makes me sad a little inside when I plop that Herald of Torment down and they think they're safe with a beefy creature or have a powerful planeswalker. Because it is extremely OP and the deck I'm running doesn't feel like it should be this tough to beat.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
You, on the other hand, likely had plenty of opportunity for misplay...
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Good luck with that .....
And the explanation for its popularity in Modern?
thanks for the awsome image http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663!
proud member of the Spirit Of EDH
Proliferation of Burn decks and Treasure Cruise-based Delver decks.
Also, BGW is an established deck. Abrupt Decay, LotV, Lingering Souls, etc.
Well BG/x in Modern also houses many of the best cards in the format. Makes sense that it shows up there too. Especially with the influx of Delver and Burn decks who try to get your life low fast.