Perhaps "warping the format" is harsh. Maybe more like defining the format.
If your deck can't inflict 30 points of damage in short order reliably you're not going to beat Abzan decks. Courser of Kruphix is another high toughness life gaining wall that you need to get through.
Its impossible to pick out one thing that is broken about Rhino, is it the 5 toughness?, the drain for 3?, the trample? Its all of them, the card would be fine if any one of those was changed.
It's the best burn spell in Standard. Nothing quite like the tried-and-true formula of stapling something to a creature. We've got like two months until FRF comes out, so it's not like Siege Rhino is here to stay forever. Personally, I enjoy the card, since it complements the Courser-Caryatid setup nicely and lets me run more planeswalkers. ABZAN 4 LYFE... until the next set.
This card has pretty much driven me out of standard for the time being. In my meta, if you play a 5 round FNM, you're likely to face Abzan midrange at least 3 times. Your best bet to win is to play the mirror and hope you win the draw war. That's just not fun. The problem with this is that it was printed in the first set of the block so this is going to be around for a while.
This card has pretty much driven me out of standard for the time being. In my meta, if you play a 5 round FNM, you're likely to face Abzan midrange at least 3 times. Your best bet to win is to play the mirror and hope you win the draw war. That's just not fun. The problem with this is that it was printed in the first set of the block so this is going to be around for a while.
if you and the other players in your FNMs are so slow and unwilling to adapt to the meta and actually PICK UP the deck that beats Abzan Midrange, you can blame yourselves for your *****ty metagame.
if you and the other players in your FNMs are so slow and unwilling to adapt to the meta and actually PICK UP the deck that beats Abzan Midrange, you can blame yourselves for your *****ty metagame.
This post cannot be overstated.
There's a reason the Sidisi Whip deck did so well at the last SCG Open. It just goes bigger than most of the other midrange decks, Abzan included. The GP San Antonio build's better if you're expecting other creature-based shenanigans (e.g. UW Heroic) as the low removal density has always been Reanimator's greatest weakness.
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
Flaming/Trolling is not allowed according to MTGS rules. - Lugger
SCG Open Richmond.
1
Jeskai Ascendancy
Harlan Firer
2
Esper Control
Shaheen Soorani
3
Abzan Midrange
Aaron Barich
4
Jeskai Tempo
Kevin Jones
5
Abzan Midrange
Brad Nelson
6
Golgari Constelation
Bobby Whitehouse
7
Mardu Control
Van Nguyen
8
Mardu Control
Stephen Dupal
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
Flaming/Trolling is not allowed according to MTGS rules. - Lugger
SCG Open Richmond.
1
Jeskai Ascendancy
Harlan Firer
2
Esper Control
Shaheen Soorani
3
Abzan Midrange
Aaron Barich
4
Jeskai Tempo
Kevin Jones
5
Abzan Midrange
Brad Nelson
6
Golgari Constelation
Bobby Whitehouse
7
Mardu Control
Van Nguyen
8
Mardu Control
Stephen Dupal
The title's of the decks in this list is perhaps a bit misleading.
Barich's deck wasn't traditional mid-range and the curve stopped at Rhino -- largely being carried by underdrops. The deck is aggro, really, you can ask him on his stream about it. It still ran Rhino but it wasn't anything like the traditional Abzan mid-range/value lists.
Brad Nelson's was 4 color midrange. It ran Rhino but it also ran Butcher of the Horde and other nonsense. If you pile a bunch of good stuff in a deck, it'll usually be ok. While it plays goodstuff, it is -- by no measure -- an Abzan deck.
When he plays siege Rhino you could do a lot of plays:
Play Hornets Nest
Play a bigger creature
Play a cheaper creature
Counter it
Gain control of it
Play Whip of Erebos
Play Jeskai Ascendancy
Play End Hostilaties
Play Nyxflreece Ram
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
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You're a bit confused. Rhino still tramples over Soldier handily for 3 points of damage. It's confusion many players have that Protection from something is defense against trample. In Reality, you only need to assign 1 point of damage to the soldier and the rest tramples. The damage to the soldier is prevented, but not the rest.
You're a bit confused. Rhino still tramples over Soldier handily for 3 points of damage. It's confusion many players have that Protection from something is defense against trample. In Reality, you only need to assign 1 point of damage to the soldier and the rest tramples. The damage to the soldier is prevented, but not the rest.
Oh yeah, it tramples. Don't know why I keep missing that. Well, he attacks through it and gets some life back
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You're a bit confused. Rhino still tramples over Soldier handily for 3 points of damage. It's confusion many players have that Protection from something is defense against trample. In Reality, you only need to assign 1 point of damage to the soldier and the rest tramples. The damage to the soldier is prevented, but not the rest.
Oh yeah, it tramples. Don't know why I keep missing that. Well, he attacks through it and gets some life back
It happens a lot. I get my rules confused all the time.
That said, Soldier is more of a minor stop-gap, but can be useful(Particularly if you have multiples out; but beware the Blight).
In honesty, Siege Rhino isn't much a problem, at least not in the sense that Thragtusk or Resto Angel were. It's good value to be certain, and a stellar creature, but I don't often find myself actually alterring my play significantly because of it. It comes down, does some stuff, and that's that. It's certainly not a problem card, such as Thragtusk was, where it hits and I think to myself "Now how do I beat this". Rhino is more in line with just trying to beat a general midrange strategy. Which is a relatively easy equation to figure out in the grand scheme.
The rhino is a good creature but I don't see him as too opressive. I think it might be the fact that he does a bit of everything that makes him annoying.
It's not like they cast a spell and get a large pair of legs. They get a large set of trampling (evasion) legs cheap (tempo) and on top of that a 6 point life-swing. He attacks from so many different angles that it's annoying to deal with all of them.
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I look at it this way. There are going to be powerful cards that stand out from the rest during every standard. As others have mentioned, Thragtusk, Gary, Delver etc... If you're playing a deck that just auto loses to the card and its a popular card right now, you just need to play a different deck and metagame against it, or accept that your deck is probably going to lose every time you run into somebody playing it. That's the risk you take when you play something that you want to play as opposed to something that plays to win. Every once in a blue moon the deck you want to play has a good match-up against the boogeyman of the format,enjoy those standards the most, but learn that not every standard is going to lend to your favorite archetypes or deck types.
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Rhino is indeed incredibly pushed. Loxodon Hierarch used to be a great creature back in the day. Change one colorless to B and you get 1 toughness more, trample, and a bigger swing, which actually damages your opponent. Loxodn had a bit of utility, so it's not strictly worse, but the regen ability was not why he was mainly played.
However, I don't think Rhino is a big problem. While chaining 3 rhinos in quick succession might be considered ''degenerate'', the real problems are Caryatid and Courser. Atm every green deck is playing 4x Elvish mystic, 4x Caryatid and 4x Courser. I think this is a much bigger problem than Siege Rhino, who only gets played in Abzan, and wierd 4 color decks, like Brad Nelson's.
There is easily a conspiracy with Siege Rhino this Standard. The game is getting more and more popular, new players are coming out of the woodwork. So, why not just make the biggest dumbest creature ever in Siege Rhino, then bad players can win games, too, and feel good about themselves. Thus, they then buy more cards and continue their Magic hobby. The fetchland reprints in this set is to keep the older players around. Oooo fetches, dont look at the ridiculously undercosted 4/5 trampler that drains you for 3.
Its impossible to pick out one thing that is broken about Rhino, is it the 5 toughness?, the drain for 3?, the trample? Its all of them, the card would be fine if any one of those was changed.
Yes, i'm coming off of a game where i lose due to 3 Rhino's, turn 4,5,6. Yes, this has happened before. Yes, everytime it is usually against a guy who misplays like crazy, but then just jams 3 Rhino's and wins.
Rhino is indeed incredibly pushed. Loxodon Hierarch used to be a great creature back in the day. Change one colorless to B and you get 1 toughness more, trample, and a bigger swing, which actually damages your opponent. Loxodn had a bit of utility, so it's not strictly worse, but the regen ability was not why he was mainly played.
However, I don't think Rhino is a big problem. While chaining 3 rhinos in quick succession might be considered ''degenerate'', the real problems are Caryatid and Courser. Atm every green deck is playing 4x Elvish mystic, 4x Caryatid and 4x Courser. I think this is a much bigger problem than Siege Rhino, who only gets played in Abzan, and wierd 4 color decks, like Brad Nelson's.
I think Loxodon Hierarch could be played in current Standard. 4 life and a 4/4 is nothing to scoff at. It's still pure value.
If your deck can't inflict 30 points of damage in short order reliably you're not going to beat Abzan decks. Courser of Kruphix is another high toughness life gaining wall that you need to get through.
Decks are having to turn to flying threats to go over the rhino. Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Wingmate Roc, Stormbreath Dragon.
It's not a real test of a deck if it gets lucky and avoids the Abzan match.
QTR - GB Constellation, SEMI - Jeskai, FINAL - Control.
That's not luck beating those decks. Well earnt victories. Still leaves doubts in my mind though.
There's hoping to avoid Abzan and then there's actually beating it.
Yawgmoth's Will is broken, Black Lotus is broken, Ancestral Recall is broken. Siege Rhino? Not... even... close...
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
U
counter target multicoloured spell
or
W1
Exile target multicoloured creature
or whatever.
Siege Rhino is fine anyway. It's just frustrating because it goes in dumb 'push the big red button' type decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Youtube Channel
Had to look through thread before posting something like this.
if you and the other players in your FNMs are so slow and unwilling to adapt to the meta and actually PICK UP the deck that beats Abzan Midrange, you can blame yourselves for your *****ty metagame.
Youtube Channel
This post cannot be overstated.
There's a reason the Sidisi Whip deck did so well at the last SCG Open. It just goes bigger than most of the other midrange decks, Abzan included. The GP San Antonio build's better if you're expecting other creature-based shenanigans (e.g. UW Heroic) as the low removal density has always been Reanimator's greatest weakness.
SCG Open Richmond.
1
Jeskai Ascendancy
Harlan Firer
2
Esper Control
Shaheen Soorani
3
Abzan Midrange
Aaron Barich
4
Jeskai Tempo
Kevin Jones
5
Abzan Midrange
Brad Nelson
6
Golgari Constelation
Bobby Whitehouse
7
Mardu Control
Van Nguyen
8
Mardu Control
Stephen Dupal
The title's of the decks in this list is perhaps a bit misleading.
Barich's deck wasn't traditional mid-range and the curve stopped at Rhino -- largely being carried by underdrops. The deck is aggro, really, you can ask him on his stream about it. It still ran Rhino but it wasn't anything like the traditional Abzan mid-range/value lists.
Brad Nelson's was 4 color midrange. It ran Rhino but it also ran Butcher of the Horde and other nonsense. If you pile a bunch of good stuff in a deck, it'll usually be ok. While it plays goodstuff, it is -- by no measure -- an Abzan deck.
You should also include the link to that top 8, so that people can see for themselves.
Play Hornets Nest
Play a bigger creature
Play a cheaper creature
Counter it
Gain control of it
Play Whip of Erebos
Play Jeskai Ascendancy
Play End Hostilaties
Play Nyxflreece Ram
And Soldier of the Pantheon offsets the damage and blocks it for days.
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Rules Advisor
You're a bit confused. Rhino still tramples over Soldier handily for 3 points of damage. It's confusion many players have that Protection from something is defense against trample. In Reality, you only need to assign 1 point of damage to the soldier and the rest tramples. The damage to the soldier is prevented, but not the rest.
Oh yeah, it tramples. Don't know why I keep missing that. Well, he attacks through it and gets some life back
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It happens a lot. I get my rules confused all the time.
That said, Soldier is more of a minor stop-gap, but can be useful(Particularly if you have multiples out; but beware the Blight).
In honesty, Siege Rhino isn't much a problem, at least not in the sense that Thragtusk or Resto Angel were. It's good value to be certain, and a stellar creature, but I don't often find myself actually alterring my play significantly because of it. It comes down, does some stuff, and that's that. It's certainly not a problem card, such as Thragtusk was, where it hits and I think to myself "Now how do I beat this". Rhino is more in line with just trying to beat a general midrange strategy. Which is a relatively easy equation to figure out in the grand scheme.
It's not like they cast a spell and get a large pair of legs. They get a large set of trampling (evasion) legs cheap (tempo) and on top of that a 6 point life-swing. He attacks from so many different angles that it's annoying to deal with all of them.
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However, I don't think Rhino is a big problem. While chaining 3 rhinos in quick succession might be considered ''degenerate'', the real problems are Caryatid and Courser. Atm every green deck is playing 4x Elvish mystic, 4x Caryatid and 4x Courser. I think this is a much bigger problem than Siege Rhino, who only gets played in Abzan, and wierd 4 color decks, like Brad Nelson's.
Remember the Titans??
I think Loxodon Hierarch could be played in current Standard. 4 life and a 4/4 is nothing to scoff at. It's still pure value.