There is easily a conspiracy with Siege Rhino this Standard. The game is getting more and more popular, new players are coming out of the woodwork. So, why not just make the biggest dumbest creature ever in Siege Rhino, then bad players can win games, too, and feel good about themselves. Thus, they then buy more cards and continue their Magic hobby. The fetchland reprints in this set is to keep the older players around. Oooo fetches, dont look at the ridiculously undercosted 4/5 trampler that drains you for 3.
Its impossible to pick out one thing that is broken about Rhino, is it the 5 toughness?, the drain for 3?, the trample? Its all of them, the card would be fine if any one of those was changed.
Yes, i'm coming off of a game where i lose due to 3 Rhino's, turn 4,5,6. Yes, this has happened before. Yes, everytime it is usually against a guy who misplays like crazy, but then just jams 3 Rhino's and wins.
Nothing is ever going to happen to Siege Rhino. You will just have to learn to deal with it.
I also lost a game to a Siege Rhino a few days ago (Maybe because I'm horrible at this game). I will admit that this is a powerful card. I wouldn't call it "Undercosted" because it all revolves around supply/demand (simple economics). Obviously, Wizards doesn't set the price, it's the secondary market.
Nobody can just pick up a playset of Siege Rhinos and magically win the game. Sure, Abzan Midrange is a very popular archetype right now, and sure, Siege Rhino is one of the "staples". But if you really could just pick up a playset of Siege Rhinos and automatically win every game you ever start, then almost everybody would be using it. And, since it is "Ridiculously Undercosted", people would have no problem paying the $14 (after all, that's all you need to win) for a playset. That's not quite how it works.
If I were to have one wish come true about this card, I think it should be lowered to a 3/4 instead of 4/5 (come on, it deals 3 damage when it ETB, right?). Then we could hit into it with Stoke the Flames. EZPZ.
But, of course, Abzan would +1/+1 it before I could even draw stoke, and then it would have flying, lifelink, deathtouch, first strike, etc. with some of the other Abzan cards. That is what you should be fearing.
Or, maybe they should make it cost 5 or 6 CMC. But, like I said, nothing is going to change.
The best thing about it is that its only $5. I wish the best cards were that cheap when I started. I had to deal with giest of saint traft lillana snapcaster swords and resto angel. Back then it was pay to win and wasn't even as bad as caw blade. If you want to talk about value creatures we will have to talk about thragtusk the king of value and creature so good it made sphinxes rev seem bad and you splashed it in any deck you could.
Siege rhino while good is not these other cards firstly it is three colours there is just one deck (spectrum of decks) that can use it. Secondly there are a bunch of cards that great against it hornet queen disdainful stroke etc. Thirdly if your opponent draws three of their best card amd the mana to cast it theu will win in any deck welcome to variance it makes every game different.
Clearly you never played in Thragtusk/Bonfire standard.
Yea seriously. There isn't a deck out right now that makes me mad QUITE like jund was back then. But really it's a pushed card in a color combination that needed help in modern. I can't understate just HOW LITTLE INCENTIVE there is to play white in modern. I think the only way you can really hate rhino in standard is if you're playing jeskai tempo in whih case you're playing a burn centric deck that DESERVES to lose to the life drain rhino. Lord knows it's not hurting this standard.
At least it's ONLY 3 life and not variable or ridiculously huge like the stuff you could get with Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Rhino is manageable, predictable, and can only really be played in one deck.
Yeah I play Jeskai so I lose to Rhino all the time, it isnt anything new, just annoying when they rip it too often, which variance seems to not be on my side in that matchup lately. Its true that Rhino is only played in Abzan or 4 Color, but there are 3 top Abzan decks out there right now in the midrange, aggro, and graveyard variant decks, so really it is pretty prominent.
The obnoxious part is that there is nothing that 'properly' deals with it besides counters like Disdainful Stroke and Dissolve. At worst, the Abzan player is eating one of your kill spells (which isnt too much of a mana advantage when you need to spend a 3 CMC card to kill it), but they still swung the life totals by 6, which is very huge. Burn doesnt get it in one shot, you cant chump it forever like you can a Polukranos or Knuckleblade, so you can hardly race, and it is bigger then almost every other creature, so it cant be block killed very easily either. Chains or Suspension Field is just asking for a blowout when they Utter End your enchantment.
I see posts from people asking what deck destroys Abzan and the answer is nothing, mainly due to Rhino, i would say. Besides counters, again, there isnt all that much efficient against it. I did play in the Resto Angel/Thragtusk Standard and, yeah, that was gross. Just Rhino by itself feels like a mini version and i foresee things getting worse with that card when the new sets roll out. There will probably be similar ETB combo's going on.
Anyways, i wanted to rant and i feel a little better, haha. I cant make myself play Abzan, even though it is clearly the best deck IMO, because it just seems too linear and boring. Kill spells, big dudes, drain you for 3. Blah.
EDIT: I have tried Hushwing and while that works OK, you are still left with a 4/5 trampler vs your 2/1 flier. The race is then on, but that barely puts you on just equal footing and not really at as much of an advantage that warrants using Hushwing.
Yeah I play Jeskai so I lose to Rhino all the time, it isnt anything new, just annoying when they rip it too often, which variance seems to not be on my side in that matchup lately. Its true that Rhino is only played in Abzan or 4 Color, but there are 3 top Abzan decks out there right now in the midrange, aggro, and graveyard variant decks, so really it is pretty prominent.
The obnoxious part is that there is nothing that 'properly' deals with it besides counters like Disdainful Stroke and Dissolve. At worst, the Abzan player is eating one of your kill spells (which isnt too much of a mana advantage when you need to spend a 3 CMC card to kill it), but they still swung the life totals by 6, which is very huge. Burn doesnt get it in one shot, you cant chump it forever like you can a Polukranos or Knuckleblade, so you can hardly race, and it is bigger then almost every other creature, so it cant be block killed very easily either. Chains or Suspension Field is just asking for a blowout when they Utter End your enchantment.
I see posts from people asking what deck destroys Abzan and the answer is nothing, mainly due to Rhino, i would say. Besides counters, again, there isnt all that much efficient against it. I did play in the Resto Angel/Thragtusk Standard and, yeah, that was gross. Just Rhino by itself feels like a mini version and i foresee things getting worse with that card when the new sets roll out. There will probably be similar ETB combo's going on.
Anyways, i wanted to rant and i feel a little better, haha. I cant make myself play Abzan, even though it is clearly the best deck IMO, because it just seems too linear and boring. Kill spells, big dudes, drain you for 3. Blah.
EDIT: I have tried Hushwing and while that works OK, you are still left with a 4/5 trampler vs your 2/1 flier. The race is then on, but that barely puts you on just equal footing and not really at as much of an advantage that warrants using Hushwing.
So, uh, just run Disdainful Stroke or Dissolve? You're already in the colors for it in a deck with lots of instants.
So, uh, just run Disdainful Stroke or Dissolve? You're already in the colors for it in a deck with lots of instants.
Cant really run too many counters in an aggro deck, but yeah, a 1-of Disdainful Stroke is about where I am at. Ever try to play aggro while holding up a counterspell all game, hoping for just the right time to hit their Rhino? It doesnt work well most of the time. Thats the thing about Abzan, they can just run out all their cards with reckless abandon most of the time while every other deck is playing too reactive. Any deck that tries to do the same thing they do, just jam the best cards, do a worse version.
So, uh, just run Disdainful Stroke or Dissolve? You're already in the colors for it in a deck with lots of instants.
Cant really run too many counters in an aggro deck, but yeah, a 1-of Disdainful Stroke is about where I am at. Ever try to play aggro while holding up a counterspell all game, hoping for just the right time to hit their Rhino? It doesnt work well most of the time. Thats the thing about Abzan, they can just run out all their cards with reckless abandon most of the time while every other deck is playing too reactive. Any deck that tries to do the same thing they do, just jam the best cards, do a worse version.
Sigh, we should all be on Abzan. :/
As an aggro deck, your own life total should mean very little to you. Just do as much damage you can to your opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible. In my Mardu build, lifegain is cool and all, but Seeker of the Way has been ditched long ago. I still have 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor, but only because he has several uses for all his abilities. As far as a Jeskai aggro is concerned, maybe sideboard into some more fliers to compliment Mantis Rider, and add more of those Dissolve and Disdainful Stroke for game 2 and 3. Something like Hushwing Gryff could also help (relatively cheap, instant speed, flying, neutralizes Rhino/Hornet Queen, makes them waste a removal spell of their own). Or board in some Nyx-Fleece Ram as a way to stabilize and efficiently block.
So we had a Siege Rhino was overrated thread, now an overpowered thread? We had Gary last standard, and Thragtusk the one before. Rhino is the least offensive of the three. Now that I think about it, weren't you the one that complained about Gary needing to be banned a while back?
Every deck in standard is the biggest game of Rock/Paper/Scissors right now. Jeskai just happens to be unfavorable against Abzan, but it's good against a majority of everything else. I don't see how it's that bad or unfair.
It's crazy powerful, but just swing into it with a Mantis Rider (or whatever) and a Lightning Strike. OK, they 2 for 1 ya.. sucks but oh well. It's the best thing they've got going. Hopefully you're not seeing more than 1 in a game anyway.
RW Control with Fated Conflagration deals with Rhino very well. I've been playing the deck for about 1.5 months now and I have a solid 80% win rate against Abzan (non-graveyard based ones, atleast). UB Control and Mono Red are also very good matches because of the massive amount of burn. Temur decks are almost unbeatable though and Jeskai is very tough, so that's the trade off. If anyone wants I'll post the list I've been playing but the deck basically builds itself. Sweepers, Burn, Walkers.
Yes, and the printed a Set called conspiracy right before this happened, they are making it to obvious
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Try out Clever Impersonator, copy Rhino and block for days or copy Mantis Rider (double Rider hard to race even with a Rhino).. double U kinda weird in Jeskai but prob gonna be turn 6-7 at min before u need to play it and it can copy any nonland permanent so has more utility then Clone
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
Flaming/Trolling is not allowed according to MTGS rules. - Lugger
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
3rd place was abzan aggro, featuring 4 siege rhino.
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
3rd place was abzan aggro, featuring 4 siege rhino.
I've always understood "aggro" and "midrange" to mean different things.
'the Rhino effect' is more defined by repetitive 'Rhino's...much like squadron hawk effect...as I swear each time I play against Rhino is a chained rhino's....like once you play the first one the others magically float to the top of the library lol.... in contrast Thragtusk and Bonfire were far more fun and interesting to me:)
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
3rd place was abzan aggro, featuring 4 siege rhino.
I've always understood "aggro" and "midrange" to mean different things.
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
It's a metagame format, everybody played decks that go slower and bigger to beat Rhino and ended up losing to token combo.
If Rhino wasn't there the metagame wouldn't evolve in this way.
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
It's a metagame format, everybody played decks that go slower and bigger to beat Rhino and ended up losing to token combo.
If Rhino wasn't there the metagame wouldn't evolve in this way.
That's just incorrect. Rhino is a good card but it's not warping the format.
Your point about Abzan Midrange being able to win off of a 9-land hand still isn't relevant, though. Abzan Aggro might be relying more heavily on other cards, even if Abzan Midrange can win off of 9-land draws due to Siege Rhino's power.
Maybe if Abzan Aggro is winning, you should be testing against that instead of Abzan Midrange.
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Its impossible to pick out one thing that is broken about Rhino, is it the 5 toughness?, the drain for 3?, the trample? Its all of them, the card would be fine if any one of those was changed.
Yes, i'm coming off of a game where i lose due to 3 Rhino's, turn 4,5,6. Yes, this has happened before. Yes, everytime it is usually against a guy who misplays like crazy, but then just jams 3 Rhino's and wins.
/vent
I also lost a game to a Siege Rhino a few days ago (Maybe because I'm horrible at this game). I will admit that this is a powerful card. I wouldn't call it "Undercosted" because it all revolves around supply/demand (simple economics). Obviously, Wizards doesn't set the price, it's the secondary market.
Nobody can just pick up a playset of Siege Rhinos and magically win the game. Sure, Abzan Midrange is a very popular archetype right now, and sure, Siege Rhino is one of the "staples". But if you really could just pick up a playset of Siege Rhinos and automatically win every game you ever start, then almost everybody would be using it. And, since it is "Ridiculously Undercosted", people would have no problem paying the $14 (after all, that's all you need to win) for a playset. That's not quite how it works.
If I were to have one wish come true about this card, I think it should be lowered to a 3/4 instead of 4/5 (come on, it deals 3 damage when it ETB, right?). Then we could hit into it with Stoke the Flames. EZPZ.
But, of course, Abzan would +1/+1 it before I could even draw stoke, and then it would have flying, lifelink, deathtouch, first strike, etc. with some of the other Abzan cards. That is what you should be fearing.
Or, maybe they should make it cost 5 or 6 CMC. But, like I said, nothing is going to change.
Siege rhino while good is not these other cards firstly it is three colours there is just one deck (spectrum of decks) that can use it. Secondly there are a bunch of cards that great against it hornet queen disdainful stroke etc. Thirdly if your opponent draws three of their best card amd the mana to cast it theu will win in any deck welcome to variance it makes every game different.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Yea seriously. There isn't a deck out right now that makes me mad QUITE like jund was back then. But really it's a pushed card in a color combination that needed help in modern. I can't understate just HOW LITTLE INCENTIVE there is to play white in modern. I think the only way you can really hate rhino in standard is if you're playing jeskai tempo in whih case you're playing a burn centric deck that DESERVES to lose to the life drain rhino. Lord knows it's not hurting this standard.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The obnoxious part is that there is nothing that 'properly' deals with it besides counters like Disdainful Stroke and Dissolve. At worst, the Abzan player is eating one of your kill spells (which isnt too much of a mana advantage when you need to spend a 3 CMC card to kill it), but they still swung the life totals by 6, which is very huge. Burn doesnt get it in one shot, you cant chump it forever like you can a Polukranos or Knuckleblade, so you can hardly race, and it is bigger then almost every other creature, so it cant be block killed very easily either. Chains or Suspension Field is just asking for a blowout when they Utter End your enchantment.
I see posts from people asking what deck destroys Abzan and the answer is nothing, mainly due to Rhino, i would say. Besides counters, again, there isnt all that much efficient against it. I did play in the Resto Angel/Thragtusk Standard and, yeah, that was gross. Just Rhino by itself feels like a mini version and i foresee things getting worse with that card when the new sets roll out. There will probably be similar ETB combo's going on.
Anyways, i wanted to rant and i feel a little better, haha. I cant make myself play Abzan, even though it is clearly the best deck IMO, because it just seems too linear and boring. Kill spells, big dudes, drain you for 3. Blah.
EDIT: I have tried Hushwing and while that works OK, you are still left with a 4/5 trampler vs your 2/1 flier. The race is then on, but that barely puts you on just equal footing and not really at as much of an advantage that warrants using Hushwing.
So, uh, just run Disdainful Stroke or Dissolve? You're already in the colors for it in a deck with lots of instants.
Cant really run too many counters in an aggro deck, but yeah, a 1-of Disdainful Stroke is about where I am at. Ever try to play aggro while holding up a counterspell all game, hoping for just the right time to hit their Rhino? It doesnt work well most of the time. Thats the thing about Abzan, they can just run out all their cards with reckless abandon most of the time while every other deck is playing too reactive. Any deck that tries to do the same thing they do, just jam the best cards, do a worse version.
Sigh, we should all be on Abzan. :/
As an aggro deck, your own life total should mean very little to you. Just do as much damage you can to your opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible. In my Mardu build, lifegain is cool and all, but Seeker of the Way has been ditched long ago. I still have 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor, but only because he has several uses for all his abilities. As far as a Jeskai aggro is concerned, maybe sideboard into some more fliers to compliment Mantis Rider, and add more of those Dissolve and Disdainful Stroke for game 2 and 3. Something like Hushwing Gryff could also help (relatively cheap, instant speed, flying, neutralizes Rhino/Hornet Queen, makes them waste a removal spell of their own). Or board in some Nyx-Fleece Ram as a way to stabilize and efficiently block.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Every deck in standard is the biggest game of Rock/Paper/Scissors right now. Jeskai just happens to be unfavorable against Abzan, but it's good against a majority of everything else. I don't see how it's that bad or unfair.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
It's undercosted for what it does and there isn't enough cards like that in standard.
I've tested all sorts of decks against Abzan midrange and the deck just has too many threats to deal with. It can draw 9 land and still be in the running with just a Siege Rhino a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, a Wingmate Roc and 1 removal spell.
It's the go bigger and go slower GB constellation decks that seem to be the best way to fight it.
maybe you're just a weak player? nothing supports your claims, there was 0 Abzan Midrange in the top 8 of Richmond open.
Flaming/Trolling is not allowed according to MTGS rules. - Lugger
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3rd place was abzan aggro, featuring 4 siege rhino.
I've always understood "aggro" and "midrange" to mean different things.
did you read the thread name?
It's a metagame format, everybody played decks that go slower and bigger to beat Rhino and ended up losing to token combo.
If Rhino wasn't there the metagame wouldn't evolve in this way.
That's just incorrect. Rhino is a good card but it's not warping the format.
Your point about Abzan Midrange being able to win off of a 9-land hand still isn't relevant, though. Abzan Aggro might be relying more heavily on other cards, even if Abzan Midrange can win off of 9-land draws due to Siege Rhino's power.
Maybe if Abzan Aggro is winning, you should be testing against that instead of Abzan Midrange.