Everyone seems to love this card, everyone seems to play this card. He is priced at $5, more than 2x what Butcher of the Horde costs, however all ktk cards have come down in price, I remember Siege Rhino's being sold for 9$ each at release (if not even more).
Why does everyone love this card?
The only real benefit I see from him is that even if you kill him, you can't avoid his +3/-3 life gain/loss.
But even so, at his core he is a 4/5 for a tri color creature which makes your mana base expensive and hurtful.
Is gaining 3 life OP? Hell no.
Is making an opponent lose 3 life OP? Hell no.
Is a 4/5 Trample for 4 Converted Mana Cost OP? Hell no.
Putting them all together?
... I don't think so, I don't think so at all. You're paying 4 mana for a Lightning Strike, some life gain and a midrange with trample.
It's hardly game breaking. If your opponent is in fear of Siege Rhino then chances are he would have feared losing 3 life or a 4/5 Trample regardless - which is silly actually and indicative that your opponent is unprepared.
Putting them all together?
... I don't think so, I don't think so at all. You're paying 4 mana for a Lightning Strike, some life gain and a midrange with trample.
lol.This is alot of value in one card
Also i don't think this is the place for this kinda thread
You already said it. The value for this card is insanely high. A Lightning Helix attached to a 4/5 trampling body for 4 mana is rather impressive. Warleader's Helix was a great burn spell from last season and paying the same amount of mana for 2 less life difference but a 4/5 trampling body is definitely worth it. 5 toughness is also huge considering it dodges every burn spell currently. It also has a lot of value that even if it did die, it already caused that 6 health life difference. Just because a card isn't format breaking, doesn't mean that it's not a great card. Lightning Bolt isn't format breaking, but it is one of the best red cards in Modern and Legacy.
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Legacy UBReanimatorBU Commander/EDH WUBrago, King EternalUW GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
Think you're under the mentality that if a card is not insanely gamebreaking it's not good. Instant value, relevant body, and an additional relevant effect against the tokens running around, 5 toughness against the burn running around, this is a cornerstone of the format and will most likely remain one until it rotates.
Putting them all together?
... I don't think so, I don't think so at all. You're paying 4 mana for a Lightning Strike, some life gain and a midrange with trample.
lol.This is alot of value in one card
To add to this: Not a lot of cards can be described as having so many effects, especially in a form where they're a four-mana 4/5, which will outclass nearly anything on the board aside from a few Monsters/Green Devotion cards. The Rhino might not have the glitz and glamour of a Titan, but it's got a hell of a lot more utility than most creatures.
Siege Rhino just looks like a kind of card new or casual players like and can see why it's good, but every one of them I've talked to didn't think Rhino was even worth playing.
Enter the battlefield creatures tend to see a lot of play. All I can say is playing multiples add up, and the life gain is very relevant in the current meta.
It seems to me like many people out there simply don't understand the standard metagame.
Rhino is the king of rates and it drains life.
Trample makes it good against Elspeth. The life gain makes it good against burn. The toughness makes it good against aggro.
It's the opressive swiss army knife at the centre of the Abzan control strategy (I don't agree with the deck being called midrange). The idea is that the deck sits there and gains life with Courser and Rhino and then gets to the finishers like Wingmate Roc while still being able to play all the premium removal in the format. All that lifegain makes your Thoughtseize pretty much free. 2 life??? HAHAHAHAHAHAH GIMME YOUR BEST CARD SUCKA!!
He is priced at $5, more than 2x what Butcher of the Horde costs, however all ktk cards have come down in price, I remember Siege Rhino's being sold for 9$ each at release (if not even more).
At release he was about 2-4 dollars. I don't know who ripped you off, but he was DEFINITELY not being sold for 9 (even at SCG).
It's just a way better version of grey merchant of asphodel. The body actually matters and the cmc is lower, if you can fix the mana. As mentioned above, it's just an amazing rate. Good ETB effects are always value.
Is gaining 3 life OP? Hell no.
Is making an opponent lose 3 life OP? Hell no.
Is a 4/5 Trample for 4 Converted Mana Cost OP? Hell no.
Putting them all together?
... I don't think so, I don't think so at all. You're paying 4 mana for a Lightning Strike, some life gain and a midrange with trample.
I don't think you really grasp the fact that it is not like the card only has 1 of these outcomes, in fact even in the face of removal you are getting 2 of these outcomes.
Sorcery
Choose up to three - Target opponent loses three life; you gain three life; put a 4/5 green, white and black rhino creature token with trample onto the battlefield.
... except it is even better than that because you can recast the spell from the yard with certain cards...
In a format where big threats are the thing, and few of them actually hit for 5+ damage - gaining 3 life and draining 3 life is kind of a big deal when trying to break parity and when you have an evasive body to swing back into that life exchange it only begins to compound the value. The is actually a pretty powerful thing to have because it also addressed the tempo aspect in MTG theory, something that is actually hard to come by for green decks. Thragtusk is a fairly recent example of what happens when green gets these kinds of abilities and Siege Rhino is cheaper. You could argue that the difference between 1WGB and 4G actually makes Rhino harder to cast, but in the end that is really more dependent on mana fixing in the format and we are in a good state for mana right now to practically nullify that argument.
Is the card busted enough to run rampant in eternal formats? Not even close. But it offers a ton of value in the current card pool that Standard has and I would not be surprised to see it's value have the opportunity to diminish as the card pool expands (but this is still dependent on if the extra cards being added to the card pool have more value in some way.)
It all boils down to "What a card is worth" in terms of resources - and Siege Rhino is that item on sale.
It's just a way better version of grey merchant of asphodel. The body actually matters and the cmc is lower, if you can fix the mana. As mentioned above, it's just an amazing rate. Good ETB effects are always value.
The thing is Rhino and Gary do two very different things. Gary is much better from a reach standpoint, since you can knock out 6-8 life in one cast, and usually serves a purely defensive role once he's down. Rhino can't really be used to do that same thing, because it's only 3 life, which is good for stabilizing, but doesn't carry the same degree of reach—I've used Gary to end a game instantly far more often than I've used Siege Rhino's drain ability to do the same.
It's just a way better version of grey merchant of asphodel. The body actually matters and the cmc is lower, if you can fix the mana. As mentioned above, it's just an amazing rate. Good ETB effects are always value.
The thing is Rhino and Gary do two very different things. Gary is much better from a reach standpoint, since you can knock out 6-8 life in one cast, and usually serves a purely defensive role once he's down. Rhino can't really be used to do that same thing, because it's only 3 life, which is good for stabilizing, but doesn't carry the same degree of reach—I've used Gary to end a game instantly far more often than I've used Siege Rhino's drain ability to do the same.
That is a bit unfair though, Gary is a 5 drop that heavily relies on board-state. Our current meta is much more permissive about color fixing (and rhino is partly green), and Rhino is a 4 drop, so the turn Gary is coming down might be the turn Rhino is getting it's first attack in.
No, it is a fair comparison. The rhino will not necessarily connect. The two are inherently different. Gary is a drain spell with legs. The rhino is a midrange beater with a lightning helix on it. Gary is for reach and finishing. Rhino is for the lifepoint swing on a relatively efficiently sized, semi evasive body. Gary drags you back into the game or finishes it. Rhino is midrange with props. Also to be noted that you will generally be playing rhino asap barring outside conditions whereas you will be looking to play Gary at the point where your board state is at its greatest if possible. Rhino can be blocked once it has hit the board which is why landing rhino on turn 3 is where you want to be, when it is more likely to get more hits in before getting killed or outsized whereas Gary is prettymuch only getting halted by a counter.
Gary has more reach, finishes better, and is primarily a drain spell.
Rhino is more independent, is a bag of value, and is primarily a midrange creature.
In defense of Gray Merchant, he does have more blowout potential than Seige Rhino. There's just not enough good devotion enablers left to make it happen. That said, Seige Rhino is just a great proactive play. Gray merchant could see a comeback later on though since there's still a few sets to make up a full standard. I'd definitely keep him on the back burner in case he re-emerges.
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I don't believe so. CMC is everything in magic. Sure you might have to take a point of damage off a pain land to cast Rhino on curve but you get all that life back.
I think that it is a definite stretch too. Gary is in a different shell. Rhino is definitely going to come before Gary because it is supposed to with a more proactive, board state irrelevant ability whereas Gary is better when played later. If you mean Gary shoved into an abzan deck with a rhino body, sure that's true but Gary where he belongs would do much more work with a rhino body imo. Being able to block other rhinos and occasionally push through some more damage means a fair bit. Notably, it would also dodge stoke which makes saving the devotion a little bit more consistent and would actually be more than just a blocker. Cmc is important but for Gary this is much less so. I mean, I think most would agree that Gary would have a field day costing 2BBBB. Lol. That's because it isn't really an early brick with props the way rhino is. It is a later game massive life swing card. Different purpose. Low cmc is great but there are purposes for high cmc things where the total cost just isn't that relevant to a degree.
Im pretty surprised it isnt more expensive even. Thragtusk was what, 25$ at one point? I know it isnt thragtusk, but its still very good-and better than tusk in a few ways. The op says its four mana is expensive, from a fetchlanda perspective maybe? All i know is KtK put out decent multicolored lands at all rarities, and this bad boy can be played turn three.
6 life swing before it attacks
Dodges all burn
Eats tokens/little buggers
4/5 trample for 4
Im pretty surprised it isnt more expensive even. Thragtusk was what, 25$ at one point? I know it isnt thragtusk, but its still very good-and better than tusk in a few ways. The op says its four mana is expensive, from a fetchlanda perspective maybe? All i know is KtK put out decent multicolored lands at all rarities, and this bad boy can be played turn three.
6 life swing before it attacks
Dodges all burn
Eats tokens/little buggers
4/5 trample for 4
Its great lol
if rhino would only cost 1 green and 3 colorless instead of tripple color it would be even more expensive than thraghtusk... and even more broken^^ it is not that expensive because it can only be played in abzan colors, and not in every deck which can somehow manage to splash green.
I dunno...I kinda think this is a bait post. He pretty must lists all the reasons why Siege Rhino is good, then says "Why does everyone love this card?"
There are cards that are hard for a new/casual player to appreciate and understand, such as Treasure Cruise or Psychatog, but Siege Rhino is pretty straight forward.
Everyone seems to love this card, everyone seems to play this card. He is priced at $5, more than 2x what Butcher of the Horde costs, however all ktk cards have come down in price, I remember Siege Rhino's being sold for 9$ each at release (if not even more).
Why does everyone love this card?
The only real benefit I see from him is that even if you kill him, you can't avoid his +3/-3 life gain/loss.
But even so, at his core he is a 4/5 for a tri color creature which makes your mana base expensive and hurtful.
Is gaining 3 life OP? Hell no.
Is making an opponent lose 3 life OP? Hell no.
Is a 4/5 Trample for 4 Converted Mana Cost OP? Hell no.
Putting them all together?
... I don't think so, I don't think so at all. You're paying 4 mana for a Lightning Strike, some life gain and a midrange with trample.
It's hardly game breaking. If your opponent is in fear of Siege Rhino then chances are he would have feared losing 3 life or a 4/5 Trample regardless - which is silly actually and indicative that your opponent is unprepared.
So, why the love for Siege Rhino?
lol.This is alot of value in one card
Also i don't think this is the place for this kinda thread
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
To add to this: Not a lot of cards can be described as having so many effects, especially in a form where they're a four-mana 4/5, which will outclass nearly anything on the board aside from a few Monsters/Green Devotion cards. The Rhino might not have the glitz and glamour of a Titan, but it's got a hell of a lot more utility than most creatures.
Enter the battlefield creatures tend to see a lot of play. All I can say is playing multiples add up, and the life gain is very relevant in the current meta.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Rhino is the king of rates and it drains life.
Trample makes it good against Elspeth. The life gain makes it good against burn. The toughness makes it good against aggro.
It's the opressive swiss army knife at the centre of the Abzan control strategy (I don't agree with the deck being called midrange). The idea is that the deck sits there and gains life with Courser and Rhino and then gets to the finishers like Wingmate Roc while still being able to play all the premium removal in the format. All that lifegain makes your Thoughtseize pretty much free. 2 life??? HAHAHAHAHAHAH GIMME YOUR BEST CARD SUCKA!!
At release he was about 2-4 dollars. I don't know who ripped you off, but he was DEFINITELY not being sold for 9 (even at SCG).
I don't think you really grasp the fact that it is not like the card only has 1 of these outcomes, in fact even in the face of removal you are getting 2 of these outcomes.
Have you ever played with or against Cryptic Command?
What if Siege Rhino read like this:
Sorcery
Choose up to three - Target opponent loses three life; you gain three life; put a 4/5 green, white and black rhino creature token with trample onto the battlefield.
... except it is even better than that because you can recast the spell from the yard with certain cards...
Also, you should be comparing it to Lightning Helix or Warleader's Helix and not Lightning Strike if you really want to use a comparison of the card at it's worst.
In a format where big threats are the thing, and few of them actually hit for 5+ damage - gaining 3 life and draining 3 life is kind of a big deal when trying to break parity and when you have an evasive body to swing back into that life exchange it only begins to compound the value. The is actually a pretty powerful thing to have because it also addressed the tempo aspect in MTG theory, something that is actually hard to come by for green decks. Thragtusk is a fairly recent example of what happens when green gets these kinds of abilities and Siege Rhino is cheaper. You could argue that the difference between 1WGB and 4G actually makes Rhino harder to cast, but in the end that is really more dependent on mana fixing in the format and we are in a good state for mana right now to practically nullify that argument.
Is the card busted enough to run rampant in eternal formats? Not even close. But it offers a ton of value in the current card pool that Standard has and I would not be surprised to see it's value have the opportunity to diminish as the card pool expands (but this is still dependent on if the extra cards being added to the card pool have more value in some way.)
It all boils down to "What a card is worth" in terms of resources - and Siege Rhino is that item on sale.
The thing is Rhino and Gary do two very different things. Gary is much better from a reach standpoint, since you can knock out 6-8 life in one cast, and usually serves a purely defensive role once he's down. Rhino can't really be used to do that same thing, because it's only 3 life, which is good for stabilizing, but doesn't carry the same degree of reach—I've used Gary to end a game instantly far more often than I've used Siege Rhino's drain ability to do the same.
That is a bit unfair though, Gary is a 5 drop that heavily relies on board-state. Our current meta is much more permissive about color fixing (and rhino is partly green), and Rhino is a 4 drop, so the turn Gary is coming down might be the turn Rhino is getting it's first attack in.
Gary has more reach, finishes better, and is primarily a drain spell.
Rhino is more independent, is a bag of value, and is primarily a midrange creature.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
If Gary was a 4/5 trample Rhino would still be better because it costs 4.
Not only is it a 6 pt life swing and a 4/5 trampler, turn 3-4 it's also a wall. Yeah, it neutralizes Rabblemaster. You can wait a turn to kill it.
That's stretching it.
Modern: UR Dragonfish
Legacy: Merfolk
Tiny Leaders: Mono Anafenza
I don't believe so. CMC is everything in magic. Sure you might have to take a point of damage off a pain land to cast Rhino on curve but you get all that life back.
6 life swing before it attacks
Dodges all burn
Eats tokens/little buggers
4/5 trample for 4
Its great lol
if rhino would only cost 1 green and 3 colorless instead of tripple color it would be even more expensive than thraghtusk... and even more broken^^ it is not that expensive because it can only be played in abzan colors, and not in every deck which can somehow manage to splash green.
There are cards that are hard for a new/casual player to appreciate and understand, such as Treasure Cruise or Psychatog, but Siege Rhino is pretty straight forward.
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