(I was gonna post this in response to a thread in the competitive section: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/competitive/577746-jeskai-ascendancy-will-has-warp-ed-the-standard, but I have to join the competitive user list and while I play all the time, I can't afford to go to major tournaments so I guess I don't qualify. And for those who will doubt my assessment, at least understand that I play with people who go to major tournaments all the time, I just can't afford to go myself so I do have some perspetive on the competitve scene.)
In short, I don't think so. For those of you who didn't see it/haven't heard about it, the Jeskai Aggro-Combo deck (Which I will now call JAC) is essentially red-white-blue weenie aggro with Jeskai Ascendancy in it that allows for it to create a large attacking force using Akroan Crusader or a big attacker that sneaks through with 4 main deck Gods Willing. It can even go infiinte with Retraction Helix. It went undefeated in swiss and placed first in elimination. For reference, I'll post a recap of a couple of scenarios where the deck went off at the end of the post.
Anyway, as powerful as this deck can be, and it is certainly very punishing against midrange, it's far from unbeatable. The sideboards in the tournament, it seemed like no one was actually running enchantment removal. Essentially, whether or not Ivan Jen knew it, his deck was heavily meta'd against the field. I watched most of his games that made it to the camera. I think there were 2 games where he literally had one out and topdecked into it on the last draw he could have. Additionally, there were a couple of times where if his opponent had played it differently, they would have won. (That's not a criticism on the person who lost or a "I would have played it right" statement, just pointing out that the JAC COULD have lost but won due to a play error.)
The truth is the deck is fragile. It only runs sixteen creatures so if it's first couple don't stick then it's stuck until it draws a creature. Also, while it can function as a viable aggro deck, without either crusader or ascendancy the deck is weak so enchantment removal or just removal for the crusader immediately hinders the deck a significant amount. There is little in the deck that does nothing by itself, but there is a lot in the deck that doesn't do much by itself. The mana base is painful is nearly an understatment, commonly doing 4-8 points of damage to itself in 3-4 turns. So the deck is not without flaws.
In truth I wanted that deck to not win the standard open mainly because I didn't want to see this kind of hysteria. There are people calling for bannings (Jeskai Ascendancy or Retraction Helix). That thread I linked above is claiming that Jeskai Ascendancy has completely warped the format. The deck is good, but it's not unbeatable. People do need to adjust and be prepared for it, but the same is true of any deck that stomps a tournament scene. Whether or not it is truly unbeatbale remains to be seen, but I don't think it is.
Recap of two scenarios that happened on camera for those who don't get how the deck works:
1. He began the turn with a Monastery Swiftspear, an Akroan Crusader, 3 land, a Springleaf Drum, and Jeskai Ascendancy. The opponent was at 20 with two blockers. Across the turn he cast another Springleaf Drum and 4 other non creature spells all targeting Akroan Crusader. The end result was a 7/6 unblockable cursader(Gods Willing and Defiant Strike), a 6/7 monastery swift spear, and 4 tokens: 6/6,5/5,4/4,2/2. Plus a Dragon Mantle and a land for a total of 19 damage after blocks. (Note in this game Jen goofed and moved the die he was using to track power on the crusader twice instead of once so he had the crusader at 8/7 and did 20 damage. I don't think it mattered because he had enough life to survive the one creature his opponent had left, but you never know I guess.)
2. He began the turn with 4 land, and a Jeskai Ascendancy. All of his creatures had died the previous turn. He drew a Springleaf Drum which allowed him to win. He played an Akroan Crusader and targeted it with something, making a token. He targeted the token with Retraction Helix and played the drum. He targeted the Akroan Crusader with another card making another token. He could then endlessly bounce the drum and replay it making his two tokens infinitely big and loot through his deck until he finds a Gods Willing to make one token unblockable.
Well I would like to point to my second example where the guy actually won from a creatureless board at the begining of his turn. However, I agree the deck is easily susceptible to the aggro sweepers (Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow).
I was playing against this deck all night on MTGO, super annoying to deal with even for other Aggro variants. Took my Mardu Aggro Midrange by surprise the first round (I thought it was boss sligh or rabble red), but post board I had a ton of removal to deal with it... Drown in Sorrow was my go to. Temur Aggro runs enough permission and enchantment removal maindeck to deal with it, but dont try to fight it creature to creature. I traded many a Knuckleblade to it before I learned that the hard way.
Is Jeskai Ascendancy the best Ascendancy? Without a doubt. Should it be banned in Modern... yes, but not in standard. It doesnt warp the format in the same way as it does in modern.
If you are after the hardest of counters for this deck, I suggest Eidolon of Rhetoric. I believe that it is safe to say the deck literally cannot operate while that card is online. I believe the best they can do is bounce EoR with Retraction Helix, but the deck seems to be highly constrained on Mana at that point.
It's literally been 3 days people. Calm down. When it wins the next three opens AND GPs then you can freak out. It's not even at MBD level domination and yet people are saying it's format warping and ascendancy should be banned and blah blah blah. A little patience.
I feel like there's been a bunch of hysteria lately. Not just with this deck, which seems pretty fragile if prepared, but with the other formats, too (treasure cruise, etc.). I question whether the root of the problems is really what people think.
I feel like this deck will be worked around in standard.
I feel like the cards in other formats could be worked around, too, except for one overarching issue, but expounding on it doesn't belong in this thread.
Random enchantment removal is fine. I recall a time not long ago when you HAD To play 4 disenchant just to make it in a tournament. You can't just ignore the other half of the board.
The deck is far from unbeatable, after lots of play testing with it, there are just so many hands which I have to keep, but based on draws would have been ripped apart if my opponnent had a turn 1 thoughtseize
Hmm, I could have sworn that the announcer's said he didn't lose a match in swiss(Is there a place to find the swiss standings, because I cant find it). Maybe a game, but not a match. That's why the announcer's were getting so hype. Which brings me to:
It think Ceddy and Pat did a big disservice to the magic community by hyping this deck up a bit too much.
Not that it isn't their job to get excited but some people seem to think the format is now broken.
The deck simply isn't that good.
I agree completely. By the quaterfinals, I was really annoyed at how much the two of them were absolutely fawning over the deck.
With the way some people are responding to this thread, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not they actually read my post at the start. I think people are blowing it way out of proportion as well. Some people are calling it the new MBD and some are calling for bannings in standard, and that is just uncalled for hyseria. Is it possible that this deck might reach that level of dominence? Sure, anything is possible. I just don't think it will. People need to take a deep breath sometimes and really analyze what's going on before jumping to conclusions.
The deck just caugh people by suprise.Calling for a ban is exageration,for now.If it dominates in every competition and is the only played deck in the formatt that it will be banned worthy.
I also think the announcers were really excited because they hadn't seen the deck before, but I'd played against (and beaten a couple times) versions of this build on several occasions on MTGO, and actually built a version of it myself after seeing it running around, all before that open occurred. I was actually quite surprised at their surprise.
Any deck playing any combo at any high-profile tournament and winning is automatically the subject of calls for bannings (see: Cranial Plating in Modern a few months ago). It's a fact of the game that the majority of players hate combo decks in general and especially hate losing to them.
Rogue decks doing well only makes the format healthier because more people will play this deck and more people will prepare for it. A single Erase at an opportune moment can be a disaster for this deck and it certainly doesn't like to see Mantis Rider on turn 3. Jeskai Ascendancy is no Skullclamp. Hell, it's not even a Lingering Souls.
That being said, it's a fantastic deck. Wait a couple of weeks for the hype (and, correspondingly, the hate) to die down and you'll have a playable and fun aggro-combo deck in a diverse and fun Standard.
@gxmiter, that's what I'm hoping occurs. While I said I didn't want the deck to win, that was just because I dreaded the overreaction. I actually really like the deck and what it will hopefully accomplish in the overall meta.
I'm horrible at making deck lists in the proper format on these forums, but you can find the decklist on starcity games website. It's the first place finisher in the standard open from 11/1(At Oakland I think).
This is quite frankly the most baffling part to me. One tournament. I repeat, one singular tournament does not a broken meta make.
Whether or not this is the next Caw Blade is utterly irrelevant until the deck in question puts up results to back up the hype surrounding it, doubly so considering the tournament was especially soft given the big name players not present.
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In short, I don't think so. For those of you who didn't see it/haven't heard about it, the Jeskai Aggro-Combo deck (Which I will now call JAC) is essentially red-white-blue weenie aggro with Jeskai Ascendancy in it that allows for it to create a large attacking force using Akroan Crusader or a big attacker that sneaks through with 4 main deck Gods Willing. It can even go infiinte with Retraction Helix. It went undefeated in swiss and placed first in elimination. For reference, I'll post a recap of a couple of scenarios where the deck went off at the end of the post.
Anyway, as powerful as this deck can be, and it is certainly very punishing against midrange, it's far from unbeatable. The sideboards in the tournament, it seemed like no one was actually running enchantment removal. Essentially, whether or not Ivan Jen knew it, his deck was heavily meta'd against the field. I watched most of his games that made it to the camera. I think there were 2 games where he literally had one out and topdecked into it on the last draw he could have. Additionally, there were a couple of times where if his opponent had played it differently, they would have won. (That's not a criticism on the person who lost or a "I would have played it right" statement, just pointing out that the JAC COULD have lost but won due to a play error.)
The truth is the deck is fragile. It only runs sixteen creatures so if it's first couple don't stick then it's stuck until it draws a creature. Also, while it can function as a viable aggro deck, without either crusader or ascendancy the deck is weak so enchantment removal or just removal for the crusader immediately hinders the deck a significant amount. There is little in the deck that does nothing by itself, but there is a lot in the deck that doesn't do much by itself. The mana base is painful is nearly an understatment, commonly doing 4-8 points of damage to itself in 3-4 turns. So the deck is not without flaws.
In truth I wanted that deck to not win the standard open mainly because I didn't want to see this kind of hysteria. There are people calling for bannings (Jeskai Ascendancy or Retraction Helix). That thread I linked above is claiming that Jeskai Ascendancy has completely warped the format. The deck is good, but it's not unbeatable. People do need to adjust and be prepared for it, but the same is true of any deck that stomps a tournament scene. Whether or not it is truly unbeatbale remains to be seen, but I don't think it is.
Recap of two scenarios that happened on camera for those who don't get how the deck works:
1. He began the turn with a Monastery Swiftspear, an Akroan Crusader, 3 land, a Springleaf Drum, and Jeskai Ascendancy. The opponent was at 20 with two blockers. Across the turn he cast another Springleaf Drum and 4 other non creature spells all targeting Akroan Crusader. The end result was a 7/6 unblockable cursader(Gods Willing and Defiant Strike), a 6/7 monastery swift spear, and 4 tokens: 6/6,5/5,4/4,2/2. Plus a Dragon Mantle and a land for a total of 19 damage after blocks. (Note in this game Jen goofed and moved the die he was using to track power on the crusader twice instead of once so he had the crusader at 8/7 and did 20 damage. I don't think it mattered because he had enough life to survive the one creature his opponent had left, but you never know I guess.)
2. He began the turn with 4 land, and a Jeskai Ascendancy. All of his creatures had died the previous turn. He drew a Springleaf Drum which allowed him to win. He played an Akroan Crusader and targeted it with something, making a token. He targeted the token with Retraction Helix and played the drum. He targeted the Akroan Crusader with another card making another token. He could then endlessly bounce the drum and replay it making his two tokens infinitely big and loot through his deck until he finds a Gods Willing to make one token unblockable.
phew. crisis averted.
Well I would like to point to my second example where the guy actually won from a creatureless board at the begining of his turn. However, I agree the deck is easily susceptible to the aggro sweepers (Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow).
Is Jeskai Ascendancy the best Ascendancy? Without a doubt. Should it be banned in Modern... yes, but not in standard. It doesnt warp the format in the same way as it does in modern.
I feel like this deck will be worked around in standard.
I feel like the cards in other formats could be worked around, too, except for one overarching issue, but expounding on it doesn't belong in this thread.
Not that it isn't their job to get excited but some people seem to think the format is now broken.
The deck simply isn't that good.
Hmm, I could have sworn that the announcer's said he didn't lose a match in swiss(Is there a place to find the swiss standings, because I cant find it). Maybe a game, but not a match. That's why the announcer's were getting so hype. Which brings me to:
I agree completely. By the quaterfinals, I was really annoyed at how much the two of them were absolutely fawning over the deck.
With the way some people are responding to this thread, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not they actually read my post at the start. I think people are blowing it way out of proportion as well. Some people are calling it the new MBD and some are calling for bannings in standard, and that is just uncalled for hyseria. Is it possible that this deck might reach that level of dominence? Sure, anything is possible. I just don't think it will. People need to take a deep breath sometimes and really analyze what's going on before jumping to conclusions.
Rogue decks doing well only makes the format healthier because more people will play this deck and more people will prepare for it. A single Erase at an opportune moment can be a disaster for this deck and it certainly doesn't like to see Mantis Rider on turn 3. Jeskai Ascendancy is no Skullclamp. Hell, it's not even a Lingering Souls.
That being said, it's a fantastic deck. Wait a couple of weeks for the hype (and, correspondingly, the hate) to die down and you'll have a playable and fun aggro-combo deck in a diverse and fun Standard.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Anger of the Gods
Drown in Sorrow
Destructive Revelry
Reclamation Sage
Erase
Take your pick, they all wreck the deck.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Eitherway is still too early to cry ban
This is quite frankly the most baffling part to me. One tournament. I repeat, one singular tournament does not a broken meta make.
Whether or not this is the next Caw Blade is utterly irrelevant until the deck in question puts up results to back up the hype surrounding it, doubly so considering the tournament was especially soft given the big name players not present.