I haven't played control as much. I've played aggro, midrange, combo decks against control. Now that I am using control decks, I learned that I have no idea what to do against other control decks (and Mirrors).
So far, I've only boarded in more counters, but that's about it. Otherwise I am lost. Can anyone enlighten me on a gameplan against control decks?
It all comes down to whether you're the beatdown or the control at each turn. But in general, if your opponent doesn't have a creature and you do, you should probably swing. And never overextend if you know they're on control: nothing like losing what little threats you have because you pretended to be an aggro deck.
EDIT: Speaking as a Legacy Nic Fit player, not as a Standard player
I think you have to identify whose deck is more controlling. If they're playing a super reactive pure control strategy like the dimir/perilous vault lists and you're playing something a bit more midrange like a jeskai control build or a temur flash build, you probably want to focus on the beats, side in as many high value threats as possible to tax their removal. Against other control decks I tend to board in as much resiliant annoying stuff possible backed up by all the negates I have in the 75. Like stormbreath dragon, keranos, god of storms, prognostic sphinx, surrak dragonclaw, any planeswalkers you may have, etc., depending on the colours you're in. My experience has been that in control mirrors, the opponent often boards out their removal, so that's your chance to bring in as much beef as you can.
This is both an easy and complicated question. Overall, control mirror strategies are typically very boring and linear, but knowing how to execute them correctly is the real challenge.
It depends on what kind of control deck you are playing.
1)If you are playing a "true" flash style control build mirror, the rules are, "be reactive, not proactive" and "resolve your spells last." In this match there are very few cards you care about your opponent resolving, because control decks are very threat-light. Thus, all countermagic/removal should be saved until a threat/finisher hits the board. Usually, in control mirrors this happens on t11 or so, and the solution is to have all the answers. For example, I would probably want to have as many as three or 4 counterspells by late-game in a control mirror, as well as packing 2-3 of my own finishers. This allows you to make sure your opponent cannot resolve their eslpeth/ashiok/sphinx/whatever, even if they have their own countermagic to try and make it stick. Of course, the same rule applies to you. You shouldn't play a threat until it's very clear it will resolve or you have a very high threat density (2-4 finishers) backed with plenty of countermagic.
The second challenge is making it to the above game state. You have to play cards in a way that you never let go of your countermagic or threats. So, say your opponent slams an elspeth on t8. Your knee-jerk might be to cast that dissolve, but say you have a banishing light and a board wipe. It's a better plan to simply banishing light the elspeth and eat 3 damage/wipe the tokens in a few turns than use the counterspell. There are some limited situations where your opponent will try to resolve a card that creates massive advantage. You may have to stop these spells, but you should only do so if you have a very loose hand, or you foresee a possibility that the game will be lost/ or that you will be SIGNIFICANTLY disadvantaged by the card resolving (this depends roughly on how much removal/counter/treat is in your hand).
2)Soft/tap-out control has a significant disadvantage against flash control, usually. It really relies on how long you can grind out advantage. Soft control poses a significant threat to flash control when you have cards that are a) difficult for it to interact with (planeswalkers or manlands) or b) permanents that produce additional permanents (courser of kruphix or primeval bounty. Occassionally you get an intersection of these cards, such as sorin, solemn visitor or Nissa, worldwaker. The strategy here is to play the beat-down USING ONLY A SINGLE THREAT (or very few). Sticking a courser and just having it bash your opponent over and over, is actually going to be a reasonable strategy until about t6/7. You opponent is not going to want to waste a board wipe on a single courser, as it is a mana intensive play that doesn't produce any card advantage (worth 2-3 mana, in reality). Here, cards like sorin, elspeth and nissa are even more powerful as they demand to be removed, because they produce significant threats that, in turn,will have to be removed afterward. A large portions of the games flash control loses to midrange will be at the hands of cards like sorin.
Caveat: In decks playing Pearl Lake Ancient as a finisher, things become more complex. You'll need to conserve some removal for the late game and force your opponent to bounce their lands&PLA to the point where they're significantly behind and you can stick a threat. If your opponent lets PLA die, theyre totally boned or have another in the wings. The good thing about the PLA decks, is that PLA is usually their only finisher, so if you can deal with both, you've probably won. U/B is the most powerful control strategy right now, though; and these mirrors are just going to be super grindy and gross no matter what.
3)As flash control against tap-out/soft: You need to hit land drops every turn. You need to try and have countermagic up as frequently as possible to deal with PWs. The real trick is figuring out how much damage you can afford to take before using something like a board wipe and how to appropriately use spot removal (which is likely an entirely different post/topic). The good thing about this match-up is that you will typically stabilize if you play a finisher, but youll likely need to see a number of finishers to close the game.
On thing not mentioned so far: control mirrors often come down to card advantage, so always counter digs and cruises and divinations if you can reasonably do so.
There is a match of modern control mirror at last years (?) world championships between stark and shenhar where they played draw go until someone didn't draw a land and then was forced to make a move. It also shows that sometimes too much patience results in you dying to triple lightning bolt.
On thing not mentioned so far: control mirrors often come down to card advantage, so always counter digs and cruises and divinations if you can reasonably do so.
I could not disagree more, if your idea of combatting the mirror last season was countering Divinations, Revelations and Inginuity's then that was a sure way to lose the control mirror.
Card Draw will never kill you, Finishers will. Card draw can't kill your finishers, removal will. Save your counter magic far the stuff that actually matter. Is it then wrong to ever counter CA spells such as Dig? Well no, if you're so far ahead that your opponents need to draw into their outs then spending counter magic to restrict such plays are certainly reasonable.
If I didn't have outs because I spent the early game countering card draw that might or might not even have had a affect on the game I'd feel rather silly though.
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Lol guys. The best easy way to describe control mirrors is don't do anything first ever. Simple as that. You want them to tap mana first. Then you can do what you want since you have more mana available.
That's the simple answer but it gets more complicated than that. Suppose you have a bunch of fetches. And they don't. You can reliably fire a dig eot to get a counter spell war so you can empty their hand of counters then cruise on your turn to refill.
Knowing what list you have matters a lot. Do you flash anything in? All very revelant.
I always tell peolle that playing control is both the easiest thing in the world and the hardest.
Just Do Nothing.
I mean dont cast any spell unless you have to. The problem is people want to be doing something it feels wierd to do nothing. Learn to do nothing embrace the nothing. Here is a great clip of joe losset playing miracles where he has his opponent on one card in hand and keeps and entreat in his top three rather then cast it because he has no reason to win he isnt under any clock so just do nothing
You go right ahead and let your opponents resolve treasure cruises all you want...
.
With controls finisher of choice being uncounterable it may have become correct to counter card draw but it was certainly correct to let revs for less then 5 resolve last standard.
On thing not mentioned so far: control mirrors often come down to card advantage, so always counter digs and cruises and divinations if you can reasonably do so.
I could not disagree more, if your idea of combatting the mirror last season was countering Divinations, Revelations and Inginuity's then that was a sure way to lose the control mirror.
Card Draw will never kill you, Finishers will. Card draw can't kill your finishers, removal will. Save your counter magic far the stuff that actually matter. Is it then wrong to ever counter CA spells such as Dig? Well no, if you're so far ahead that your opponents need to draw into their outs then spending counter magic to restrict such plays are certainly reasonable.
If I didn't have outs because I spent the early game countering card draw that might or might not even have had a affect on the game I'd feel rather silly though.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially since the main finisher <pearl lake> can not be countered.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially since the main finisher <pearl lake> can not be countered.
Axman, this is a general advice thread. Obviously things will vary from deck to deck and format to format. We touched on that a bit in this thread (so see my above post dated 8/30/2014), but let's keep this in the U/B thread, since we're touching on that specific deck's mirror. Alright?
I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially since the main finisher <pearl lake> can not be countered.
Axman, this is a general advice thread. Obviously things will vary from deck to deck and format to format. We touched on that a bit in this thread, but let's keep this in the U/B thread, since we're touching on that specific deck's mirror. Alright?
Not sure the hostility, am I not allowed to disagree?
Typically <from my experience> whoever resolves the most draw-spells wins the control mirror.
I would agree with UltraLunch.
EDIT: This is the standard forum. Pearl Lake is in all standard decks at the moment. Including UW control and UB.
My comment wasn't isolated to just one standard control deck. But all of them <currently>
I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially since the main finisher <pearl lake> can not be countered.
PLA as a main finisher seems rather questionable given the recent control offerings. It could definitely still have a place in the mirror though so I guess the debate is still a relevant one.
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I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially since the main finisher <pearl lake> can not be countered.
PLA as a main finisher seems rather questionable given the recent control offerings. It could definitely still have a place in the mirror though so I guess the debate is still a relevant one.
Fair point. With the new dragon(s) we might need to wait for the meta to shake out.
There is a lot of variance in the amount of counters being run in the 75s. If you have good reason to believe you are counter heavy, then figure out ways to take advantage of that. Countering draw cards is fine in that scenario, they either counter your counter or you draw more cards over the game. Either can leave you well placed, unless they are tricking you to tap out at the end of your turn so they can play a threat.
Control v. Control in general (and PLA v. PLA in-very-particular) plays a lot like chess does when the game is down to King+Rook v. just king. You can do it if you have a plan. If you don't have a plan you are going around in circles.
Sometimes, just stop and ask yourself why they are doing what they are doing right now. What do they have to gain? You have to assume they have a hand full of problems.
It's all about mana efficiency. Your objective is to force the opponent counter your less important spells or otherwise react to what you are doing to create an opening to resolve something that matters. Play Jace's Ingenuity and Dig Through Time during your opponent's end step until they have to counter your spells.
As a long time draw go player, just some general tips.
Your objectives from most important: Hit land drops, threaten counterspells on key turns, and gather CA
Counterspells are your most limited resource besides mana, you can't threaten them if you use them on questionable things, so they are typically reserved for stopping their win con or protecting your own. The most ability of a counterspell is deterrence, remember this and play to it. This means stay maximally untapped on key turns.
Don't counter draw spells willy nilly, unless you think you can dry them of ALL resources which usually is a late game event (unless you KNOW they are land screwed early) and considerable enough to be considered a win-con. End of turn draw spells are notorious baits to deplete both mana and counterspells. If resources are plenty, learn to let it go.
In regards to countering draw spells, I find that against UB control (I run UWR control for my standard control), you want to counter those card draws. Typically they are playing some number of PLA, and getting to that is the main goal. You want to slow them down in finding it, or lands to cast it, since it's an uncounterable spell. UW usually (but not always) runs more els than PLA, so in that case it's safer to save counters for els. It's a judgement call based on what you've seen of their deck.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
In regards to countering draw spells, I find that against UB control (I run UWR control for my standard control), you want to counter those card draws. Typically they are playing some number of PLA, and getting to that is the main goal. You want to slow them down in finding it, or lands to cast it, since it's an uncounterable spell. UW usually (but not always) runs more els than PLA, so in that case it's safer to save counters for els. It's a judgement call based on what you've seen of their deck.
In my experience, you save the countermagic to keep your PLA on the board. Your opponent will hold lots of removal to try to win the PLA race, and the more countermagic you have to ensure youre on an even footing the better.
I was just talking about general counter strategy in regards to deck types. Assuming you have your finisher first is another matter. Until I can draw mine, I follow that rule of thumb
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The only time to counter draw spells is when you are super far ahead and have multiple counters in hand and they have nothing. Pearl lake is not that good if you are White anything control you need to resolve elsbeth and protect her which is obvious but she single handily beats the ancient as long as you can protect her. If you play black you just need to save thoughtsieze and kill spell the ancient when he lands. They will either let it die or bounce it and you thoughtsieze it away.
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So far, I've only boarded in more counters, but that's about it. Otherwise I am lost. Can anyone enlighten me on a gameplan against control decks?
Thanks in advance
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EDIT: Speaking as a Legacy Nic Fit player, not as a Standard player
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It depends on what kind of control deck you are playing.
1)If you are playing a "true" flash style control build mirror, the rules are, "be reactive, not proactive" and "resolve your spells last." In this match there are very few cards you care about your opponent resolving, because control decks are very threat-light. Thus, all countermagic/removal should be saved until a threat/finisher hits the board. Usually, in control mirrors this happens on t11 or so, and the solution is to have all the answers. For example, I would probably want to have as many as three or 4 counterspells by late-game in a control mirror, as well as packing 2-3 of my own finishers. This allows you to make sure your opponent cannot resolve their eslpeth/ashiok/sphinx/whatever, even if they have their own countermagic to try and make it stick. Of course, the same rule applies to you. You shouldn't play a threat until it's very clear it will resolve or you have a very high threat density (2-4 finishers) backed with plenty of countermagic.
The second challenge is making it to the above game state. You have to play cards in a way that you never let go of your countermagic or threats. So, say your opponent slams an elspeth on t8. Your knee-jerk might be to cast that dissolve, but say you have a banishing light and a board wipe. It's a better plan to simply banishing light the elspeth and eat 3 damage/wipe the tokens in a few turns than use the counterspell. There are some limited situations where your opponent will try to resolve a card that creates massive advantage. You may have to stop these spells, but you should only do so if you have a very loose hand, or you foresee a possibility that the game will be lost/ or that you will be SIGNIFICANTLY disadvantaged by the card resolving (this depends roughly on how much removal/counter/treat is in your hand).
2)Soft/tap-out control has a significant disadvantage against flash control, usually. It really relies on how long you can grind out advantage. Soft control poses a significant threat to flash control when you have cards that are a) difficult for it to interact with (planeswalkers or manlands) or b) permanents that produce additional permanents (courser of kruphix or primeval bounty. Occassionally you get an intersection of these cards, such as sorin, solemn visitor or Nissa, worldwaker. The strategy here is to play the beat-down USING ONLY A SINGLE THREAT (or very few). Sticking a courser and just having it bash your opponent over and over, is actually going to be a reasonable strategy until about t6/7. You opponent is not going to want to waste a board wipe on a single courser, as it is a mana intensive play that doesn't produce any card advantage (worth 2-3 mana, in reality). Here, cards like sorin, elspeth and nissa are even more powerful as they demand to be removed, because they produce significant threats that, in turn,will have to be removed afterward. A large portions of the games flash control loses to midrange will be at the hands of cards like sorin.
Caveat: In decks playing Pearl Lake Ancient as a finisher, things become more complex. You'll need to conserve some removal for the late game and force your opponent to bounce their lands&PLA to the point where they're significantly behind and you can stick a threat. If your opponent lets PLA die, theyre totally boned or have another in the wings. The good thing about the PLA decks, is that PLA is usually their only finisher, so if you can deal with both, you've probably won. U/B is the most powerful control strategy right now, though; and these mirrors are just going to be super grindy and gross no matter what.
3)As flash control against tap-out/soft: You need to hit land drops every turn. You need to try and have countermagic up as frequently as possible to deal with PWs. The real trick is figuring out how much damage you can afford to take before using something like a board wipe and how to appropriately use spot removal (which is likely an entirely different post/topic). The good thing about this match-up is that you will typically stabilize if you play a finisher, but youll likely need to see a number of finishers to close the game.
but mysterons has the long answer
There is a match of modern control mirror at last years (?) world championships between stark and shenhar where they played draw go until someone didn't draw a land and then was forced to make a move. It also shows that sometimes too much patience results in you dying to triple lightning bolt.
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I could not disagree more, if your idea of combatting the mirror last season was countering Divinations, Revelations and Inginuity's then that was a sure way to lose the control mirror.
Card Draw will never kill you, Finishers will. Card draw can't kill your finishers, removal will. Save your counter magic far the stuff that actually matter. Is it then wrong to ever counter CA spells such as Dig? Well no, if you're so far ahead that your opponents need to draw into their outs then spending counter magic to restrict such plays are certainly reasonable.
If I didn't have outs because I spent the early game countering card draw that might or might not even have had a affect on the game I'd feel rather silly though.
That's the simple answer but it gets more complicated than that. Suppose you have a bunch of fetches. And they don't. You can reliably fire a dig eot to get a counter spell war so you can empty their hand of counters then cruise on your turn to refill.
Knowing what list you have matters a lot. Do you flash anything in? All very revelant.
Just Do Nothing.
I mean dont cast any spell unless you have to. The problem is people want to be doing something it feels wierd to do nothing. Learn to do nothing embrace the nothing. Here is a great clip of joe losset playing miracles where he has his opponent on one card in hand and keeps and entreat in his top three rather then cast it because he has no reason to win he isnt under any clock so just do nothing
.
With controls finisher of choice being uncounterable it may have become correct to counter card draw but it was certainly correct to let revs for less then 5 resolve last standard.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially since the main finisher <pearl lake> can not be countered.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Axman, this is a general advice thread. Obviously things will vary from deck to deck and format to format. We touched on that a bit in this thread (so see my above post dated 8/30/2014), but let's keep this in the U/B thread, since we're touching on that specific deck's mirror. Alright?
Not sure the hostility, am I not allowed to disagree?
Typically <from my experience> whoever resolves the most draw-spells wins the control mirror.
I would agree with UltraLunch.
EDIT: This is the standard forum. Pearl Lake is in all standard decks at the moment. Including UW control and UB.
My comment wasn't isolated to just one standard control deck. But all of them <currently>
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
PLA as a main finisher seems rather questionable given the recent control offerings. It could definitely still have a place in the mirror though so I guess the debate is still a relevant one.
Fair point. With the new dragon(s) we might need to wait for the meta to shake out.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Control v. Control in general (and PLA v. PLA in-very-particular) plays a lot like chess does when the game is down to King+Rook v. just king. You can do it if you have a plan. If you don't have a plan you are going around in circles.
Sometimes, just stop and ask yourself why they are doing what they are doing right now. What do they have to gain? You have to assume they have a hand full of problems.
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Your objectives from most important: Hit land drops, threaten counterspells on key turns, and gather CA
Counterspells are your most limited resource besides mana, you can't threaten them if you use them on questionable things, so they are typically reserved for stopping their win con or protecting your own. The most ability of a counterspell is deterrence, remember this and play to it. This means stay maximally untapped on key turns.
Don't counter draw spells willy nilly, unless you think you can dry them of ALL resources which usually is a late game event (unless you KNOW they are land screwed early) and considerable enough to be considered a win-con. End of turn draw spells are notorious baits to deplete both mana and counterspells. If resources are plenty, learn to let it go.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
In my experience, you save the countermagic to keep your PLA on the board. Your opponent will hold lots of removal to try to win the PLA race, and the more countermagic you have to ensure youre on an even footing the better.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show