A deck I'm brewing is going for the Ascendancy Combo that strictly in Jeskai colors. I know that one that has green in it is pretty consistent. But I'm trying to find a way to work around it. Do you guys think there's a way to play it with a mix-and-mash of Jeskai colors only?
A deck I'm brewing is going for the Ascendancy Combo that strictly in Jeskai colors. I know that one that has green in it is pretty consistent. But I'm trying to find a way to work around it. Do you guys think there's a way to play it with a mix-and-mash of Jeskai colors only?
Well, Commune with the Gods gives you the ability to dig 5 cards to get 2/3 combo pieces while fueling the Delve CA spells (Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise). Because of the lack of good Cantrips and other deck manipulation in Standard, that is a very relevant thing to be doing. The only card in Jeskai colors that does anything close to that is Dig Through Time (with Cruise a distant second), but you can have trouble running multiple of those without some way to stock your graveyard...... where we come back to Commune.
EDIT: Technically, Tormenting Voice does both of those things too, but it does both of them much worse than Commune does.
Combine that with the only early ramp/defense option in Sylvan Caryatid and you have issues, even though technically you have all your combo pieces in those three colors. Its such a massive hit to your consistency, which is why people started running 4 colors for the deck in the first place.
You don't need to go infinite - just get a few tokens really big and attack, or lifelink your guys with jeskai charm or whatever. The upside is that this deck often just wins by curving out on raise the alarm into hordelings and rabblemasters.
You can go infinite triggers with Ascendancy, 2 creatures, Retraction Helix, and Springleaf Drum. Creature 1 taps for Drum, Creature 2 with Retraction returns Drum. Play Drum, untap creatures. Repeat.
I built a R/W/U shell using Favored Hoplite, Lagonna Band Trailblazer, Monastery Swiftspear and other cheap drops. The deck naturally runs 4 God's Willing to protect itself and that becomes the kill condition when you attack with protection. The deck also has the ability to do a manual beat down since it cantrips Defiant Strikes and Dragon Mantle.
I took it to GP LA. I crushed all the Jeskai decks but only won 1 out of 3 matches against Abzan. My SB was inadequate under the circumstances. Missed Day 2 at 6-3.
But doesn't the targeting (hence the Heroic proc) get priority over the opponent's removal?
Yes, it does. But that's not important if they cast their removal in response to the Heroic trigger and not the Helix itself.
Actually, you pretty much have to target it in response to the Helix more or less. Heroic Triggers go on the stack when it becomes targetted by a spell, not on resolution of said spell, before priority is ever passed. So Helix will still be on the stack before the Heroic ability resolves. It doesn't really matter much, and is rather pedantic, but it is important to note. If you let Helix resolve, it is too late as that means that the Heroic trigger has already resolved prior to the Helix. You choose targets upon casting a spell or using an ability, not on resolution. Further, the stack is Last In First Out, meaning that if you cast a spell while the Heroic trigger is still on the stack, you're golden *unless* they target it again, which places a new Heroic trigger on the stack which will resolve before you removal spell.
So, for the person you replied to, let's take an example of:
1. You cast Retraction Helix targetting Thaumaturge.
2. Before priority can be passed, Thaumaturge's Heroic ability goes on the stack due to the targetting. Helix is still on the stack and hasn't resolved. You pass priority.
3. I cast Hero's Downfall targetting Thaumaturge. The Heroic ability is below it, and below that is Helix. I pass priority.
4. You have nothing much to do, and pass priority. Downfall Resolves, destroying Thaumy. A passing of priority occurs again.
5. Thaumy's ability resolves, but as it is no longer on the battlefield it does nothing. Good day sir. Both players pass priority.
6. Helix attempts to resolve. It's target no longer exists, so it promptly fizzles and is put into the graveyard. The stack is now empty.
Now, you could cast a second Helix after the Downfall to save your Thaumaturge, as that would now place an instance of Helix above it, with a second Heroic Trigger above that, where the Heroic trigger resolves first. By the time you get to Downfall, Thaumy now has Hexproof, and Downfall can no longer target it (Note: Since targetting occurs as part of casting a spell, you cannot change the target of a spell while it's on the stack).
Now, I'm sure you know this. But I'm bored, so I figured I'd outline it just to make it clear to the poster you were responding to. The stack can be tricky sometimes.
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EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
Well, Commune with the Gods gives you the ability to dig 5 cards to get 2/3 combo pieces while fueling the Delve CA spells (Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise). Because of the lack of good Cantrips and other deck manipulation in Standard, that is a very relevant thing to be doing. The only card in Jeskai colors that does anything close to that is Dig Through Time (with Cruise a distant second), but you can have trouble running multiple of those without some way to stock your graveyard...... where we come back to Commune.
EDIT: Technically, Tormenting Voice does both of those things too, but it does both of them much worse than Commune does.
Combine that with the only early ramp/defense option in Sylvan Caryatid and you have issues, even though technically you have all your combo pieces in those three colors. Its such a massive hit to your consistency, which is why people started running 4 colors for the deck in the first place.
I say lol because it doesn't have hexproof and would be killed all the time.
EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
I have no idea what good that does. but it's an interesting thought. Problem is it kinda doesnt really do anything that wins you the game.
i wonder.....i'm going to work on this today cause it still works for mill with 0 cast artifacts
4 raise the alarm
4 hordeling outburst
2 goblin rabblemaster
combo
4 jeskai ascendancy
4 astral cornucopia
4 retraction helix
1 altar of the brood
burn / lifelink
4 stoke the flames
4 jeskai charm
2 springleaf drum
4 treasure cruise
mana
3 mystic monastery
4 flooded strand
4 temple of epiphany
3 temple of triumph
3 island
3 plains
3 mountain
4 mantis rider
4 lightning strike
2 sarkhan, the dragonspeaker
2 goblin rabblemaster
3 seeker of the way
You don't need to go infinite - just get a few tokens really big and attack, or lifelink your guys with jeskai charm or whatever. The upside is that this deck often just wins by curving out on raise the alarm into hordelings and rabblemasters.
Unless they have an instant speed response, in which case it dies regardless. Hence Caryatid's use.
EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
Yes, it does. But that's not important if they cast their removal in response to the Heroic trigger and not the Helix itself.
I built a R/W/U shell using Favored Hoplite, Lagonna Band Trailblazer, Monastery Swiftspear and other cheap drops. The deck naturally runs 4 God's Willing to protect itself and that becomes the kill condition when you attack with protection. The deck also has the ability to do a manual beat down since it cantrips Defiant Strikes and Dragon Mantle.
I took it to GP LA. I crushed all the Jeskai decks but only won 1 out of 3 matches against Abzan. My SB was inadequate under the circumstances. Missed Day 2 at 6-3.
Actually, you pretty much have to target it in response to the Helix more or less. Heroic Triggers go on the stack when it becomes targetted by a spell, not on resolution of said spell, before priority is ever passed. So Helix will still be on the stack before the Heroic ability resolves. It doesn't really matter much, and is rather pedantic, but it is important to note. If you let Helix resolve, it is too late as that means that the Heroic trigger has already resolved prior to the Helix. You choose targets upon casting a spell or using an ability, not on resolution. Further, the stack is Last In First Out, meaning that if you cast a spell while the Heroic trigger is still on the stack, you're golden *unless* they target it again, which places a new Heroic trigger on the stack which will resolve before you removal spell.
So, for the person you replied to, let's take an example of:
1. You cast Retraction Helix targetting Thaumaturge.
2. Before priority can be passed, Thaumaturge's Heroic ability goes on the stack due to the targetting. Helix is still on the stack and hasn't resolved. You pass priority.
3. I cast Hero's Downfall targetting Thaumaturge. The Heroic ability is below it, and below that is Helix. I pass priority.
4. You have nothing much to do, and pass priority. Downfall Resolves, destroying Thaumy. A passing of priority occurs again.
5. Thaumy's ability resolves, but as it is no longer on the battlefield it does nothing. Good day sir. Both players pass priority.
6. Helix attempts to resolve. It's target no longer exists, so it promptly fizzles and is put into the graveyard. The stack is now empty.
Now, you could cast a second Helix after the Downfall to save your Thaumaturge, as that would now place an instance of Helix above it, with a second Heroic Trigger above that, where the Heroic trigger resolves first. By the time you get to Downfall, Thaumy now has Hexproof, and Downfall can no longer target it (Note: Since targetting occurs as part of casting a spell, you cannot change the target of a spell while it's on the stack).
Now, I'm sure you know this. But I'm bored, so I figured I'd outline it just to make it clear to the poster you were responding to. The stack can be tricky sometimes.