It's shocking to see how dead this forum can be. Anyone watching this week's SCG coverage, should know that this card has introduced legacy level power to standard. If that's not an obvious alarm bell for wizards, I don't know what is. Modern is supposed to be a t4 or later format. If heroic ascendancy ticks up in popularity, given how insanely overpowered it is (which anyone who's seen that deck could 1000% guarantee), this cards going to get banned much sooner than later. How soon? I'm unsure.
Anybody know the precedence on banning time-wise?
I could see it getting banned in Modern because they are much more aggressive about banning cards. In Standard, they only ban cards if it's just a crazy situation. And even then they'll still wait a couple of months to do so. The only times cards have been banned in Standard since we've switched to the Modern card frame are:
Skullclamp: because it got to the point where Skullclamp was in every deck that T8'd a tournament, even though the format was actually somewhat diverse. Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault/Artifact lands: Because the Affinity deck once Ravager had been printed turned into a resilient combo that went off very fast. Format was largely skewed toward affinity. Stoneforge Mystic/Jace the Mind Sculptor: Again, the format was skewed heavily toward a deck that played both of these cards. Like... over 50% of the field. To the point where JTMS was a 100 dollar card. And it really only saw play in the one deck. The only card that has come close to that money value recently was Bonfire of the Damned at 50 dollars, but it was in multiple decks and it rose and fell out of popularity during it's reign in Standard. It's worth noting that in the case of Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, they waited until the two cards were a few months from rotating out anyway, and they waited until they could see a marked decrease in tournament attendence at GPs and other major tournaments.
So basically that's what it will take for Ascendency to get banned. The card probably needs to represent a vast majority of the field (which it's not looking like it currently), and it needs to get to the point where people aren't going to tournaments anymore.
Honestly killing the creatures is probably easier and more fruitful than taking out Ascendancy. IMHO, the best tools in each color:
White: Banishing Light, Suspension Field, Devouring Light, Erase, End Hostilities (probably too slow), Spirit of the Labyrinth
Black: Murderous Cut, Bile Blight, Drown in Sorrows, Doomwake Giant
Red: Eidolon of the Great Revel, Anger of the Gods (best overall hate color despite enchantment removal)
Blue: Not much, Whelming Wave and other bounce spells (weakest by a fair bit)
Green: Setessan Tactics, Back to Nature, other enchantment removal
Artifact: Perilous Vault (like End hostilities, too slow)
As far as multicolored cards go, versatile removal like Utter End and Sultai Charm are probably the best bets. Crackling Doom, Destructive Revelry, and Deflecting Palm are pretty good as well. Basically you want a plan that can deal with Akroan Crusader AND Ascendancy. The deck doesn't win without them, but dealing with only one or the other can be fatal. I'd expect to see more stubborn denials, negates, and ajani's presence in the tuned lists, so they will be prepared for some of this hate.
Actually, the deck doesn't need crusaders to win. All it needs is 2 creatures, drum, ascendancy and retraction helix.
The point is that the rest of the creatures are usually quite bad, or at least bad enough that they'll lose to any T1 deck. When I say Akroan is important, I'm talking both about comboing off an empty board and winning as a heroic deck. Akroan is the only creature in the deck that is very strong for both approaches. If you are playing against this deck and they don't have a Crusader or Ascendancy out you should feel very good about your chances.
Even with Ascendancy out, the other creatures are really sub-optimal. An infinite combo doesn't really mean anything if your infinite power creatures have summoning sickness. Sorcery speed board wipes like Anger of the Gods, or even Doomwake Giant are enough to deal with them in a lot of cases. Cards like Ulcerate and Murderous Cut might be necessary early on though to prevent the creatures from growing too large.
It's shocking to see how dead this forum can be. Anyone watching this week's SCG coverage, should know that this card has introduced legacy level power to standard. If that's not an obvious alarm bell for wizards, I don't know what is. Modern is supposed to be a t4 or later format. If heroic ascendancy ticks up in popularity, given how insanely overpowered it is (which anyone who's seen that deck could 1000% guarantee), this cards going to get banned much sooner than later. How soon? I'm unsure.
Anybody know the precedence on banning time-wise?
Holy hyperbole Batman.
Legacy levels of power? I saw no games where ascendancy won on turn 1. I saw no games where ascendancy won on turn 2.
I woukd be amazed if this card was banned in standard. Its a 4 card combo in a format with thoughtseize if people want to beat it they will. It won a single tournament held on a gp weekend (in a format that attracts high level players) on the other side of the country from the main grinders of said tournament. Why dont we wait a few weeks before calling the format broken.
If ascendancy should be banned, why aren't we talking about banning siege rhino or mantis rider? Just because something's critical to the success of a competitive deck doesn't mean it should be banned. The worst case scenario here is that people have to have some enchantment hate and sweepers in their sideboard. Erase, anger of the gods, drown in sorrow, unravel the aether, aetherspouts and a huge number of other cards completely disrupt the ascendancy decks. There are numerous viable answers in every single colour, whether they're playing the heroic version or the altar of the brood versions.
It's possible that this deck comes to dominate the format for a time, but we're nowhere near that point right now. It's just a funky brew that unexpectedly won an SCG tournament. People should be happy that there are combo pieces in standard. It strengthens and diversifies the meta. THS-KTK standard is a jillion times more fun than RTR-THS was. There are literally dozens of competitively viable decks right now and it seems like the deciding factor is usually good gamepley and heads-up deckbuilding. The meta is shifting weekly and just about any solid brew is viable.
I played against Jeskai Combo this weekend. It is isn't as bad as people make out, I think. No, I wouldn't want to play it in multiple rounds, but it has a certain thrill. Kind of like I imagine defusing a bomb would be. You have a couple of opportunities to do something, if you do the wrong thing or are too slow, you are just dead. Of course, you always just run (race the combo) which works sometimes too.
The most recent was caw-blade, which dominated standard for months. Usually, Wizards measures these things by a downtick in GP attendance -- or so I've been told. It's probably not the only stick they use (I would imagine R&D messes on MODO for a bit) but it's certainly a good way to tell if players are enjoying a format.
This deck is good but certainly beatable. A bit of tight play will tumble this glass cannon as it's not that much different than the Ascendancy Combo.
Skullclamp: because it got to the point where Skullclamp was in every deck that T8'd a tournament, even though the format was actually somewhat diverse. Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault/Artifact lands: Because the Affinity deck once Ravager had been printed turned into a resilient combo that went off very fast. Format was largely skewed toward affinity. Stoneforge Mystic/Jace the Mind Sculptor: Again, the format was skewed heavily toward a deck that played both of these cards. Like... over 50% of the field. To the point where JTMS was a 100 dollar card. And it really only saw play in the one deck. The only card that has come close to that money value recently was Bonfire of the Damned at 50 dollars, but it was in multiple decks and it rose and fell out of popularity during it's reign in Standard. It's worth noting that in the case of Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, they waited until the two cards were a few months from rotating out anyway, and they waited until they could see a marked decrease in tournament attendence at GPs and other major tournaments.
Skull clamp was actully only in 66% of top 8 decks lists.
For comparison Ravanger was 44%.
As for Jace he was actully in a variety of decks and reached Ravanger levels of top 8 even before jund roatated. Post rotation the decks started to tend towards caw blade decks and reached skull clamp levels of top 8's. After batterskull Jace (mostly caw blade) was 75% of the top 8.
As for ascendancy prior to this weekend I would have said that this thread was an overreaction. This weekend the deck looked a tier above all the rest of the field. I'm not seeing any point in discussing it till we see what happens in the next few weeks.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Skullclamp was banned before the set was ever released. Back then you had a 2 week lag time before a new set became legal for constructed formats.
The ONLY motivation for banning cards in standard is a drop off of tournament attendance at the higher levels. Doesn't matter how broken a deck is or how many are in the top 8. If attendance doesn't drop no ban is coming.
Skullclamp was banned before Fifth Dawn released, it's a Darksteel card, I remember attending those prereleases. It was legal for almost 4 months before the banhammer dropped.
Skullclamp: because it got to the point where Skullclamp was in every deck that T8'd a tournament, even though the format was actually somewhat diverse. Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault/Artifact lands: Because the Affinity deck once Ravager had been printed turned into a resilient combo that went off very fast. Format was largely skewed toward affinity. Stoneforge Mystic/Jace the Mind Sculptor: Again, the format was skewed heavily toward a deck that played both of these cards. Like... over 50% of the field. To the point where JTMS was a 100 dollar card. And it really only saw play in the one deck. The only card that has come close to that money value recently was Bonfire of the Damned at 50 dollars, but it was in multiple decks and it rose and fell out of popularity during it's reign in Standard. It's worth noting that in the case of Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, they waited until the two cards were a few months from rotating out anyway, and they waited until they could see a marked decrease in tournament attendence at GPs and other major tournaments.
Skull clamp was actully only in 66% of top 8 decks lists.
For comparison Ravanger was 44%.
As for Jace he was actully in a variety of decks and reached Ravanger levels of top 8 even before jund roatated. Post rotation the decks started to tend towards caw blade decks and reached skull clamp levels of top 8's. After batterskull Jace (mostly caw blade) was 75% of the top 8.
As for ascendancy prior to this weekend I would have said that this thread was an overreaction. This weekend the deck looked a tier above all the rest of the field. I'm not seeing any point in discussing it till we see what happens in the next few weeks.
I believe your Ravager numbers. I'm a little confused as to how you came by the Skullclamp numbers. Clearly I didn't look at every T8 list, but I do remember an article that came up after or just before the ban where in the last tournament it was in all the T8 lists. And things like Elf and Nail became viable decks because they basically just piggy-backed on the strength of Skullclamp.
This is just a guess from me, but I would think that at first the Skullclamp numbers were lower back when the format was Goblins, Affinity and control decks. Then when they figured out how degenerate the card could get you started to see it more. It's also worth mentioning to people that weren't around back then that there wasn't a major tournament every week so the metagame didn't change nearly as quickly as it did now.
In any case we both agree that for a card to get banned in standard, it has to be really damaging. It can't just be in a deck that makes up 40% of the format.
There've been, I think, three or four threads over the last few weeks discussing how Jeskai Ascandancy combo (first the Umbrella Revolution version that Lee Shi Tian piloted at Pro Tour Khans of Tarkir and now Ivan Jen's shiny new Heroic version) is "warping standard," "unbeatable," "needs to be banned," etc.
This is completely ridiculous.
First, let's take a look at what cards have been banned in Standard in the past (spoiler alert: not many)
Nine of those nineteen cards are from one deck, the infamous Ravager Affinity, that utterly dominated a format in a way never before seen. If you weren't playing Ravager Affinity you had to devote at least 8 slots, maindeck, to hating it out and even then you weren't guaranteed anything. Brian Kibler said at the time: "Everyone thinks that their decks deal with Affinity, and they honestly don't. ... You win nearly every single game 1 matchup in the format, and then games 2 and 3 are usually 50/50 or 60/40 against you, which is still pretty good odds when you are already up a game."
So that's how powerful a deck has to be before it gets banned in Standard. But what about an individual card?
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is hands-down the best Planeswalker ever printed. Stoneforge Mystic is an overpowered engine that tutors up any equipment (all too often Sword of Feast and Famine or Batterskull) and cheat it into play. These two cards were the crux of the Caw-Blade decks that dominated the format at the time, but they were not played exclusively in that deck. Aaron Forsythe wrote in his article on the bannings that "The Standard metagame is stagnant and unhealthy at the moment, and has been for months. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is appearing in winning deck lists an alarming percentage of the time, with Stoneforge Mystic appearing almost as often. For reference, 88% of the decks in Day 2 of Grand Prix Singapore contained multiple copies of Jace, and almost 70% of the Day 2 decks contained Stoneforge Mystic. The numbers from Pro Tour Qualifiers and independent large events like the StarCityGames.com Open Series look very similar."
88%. Only one in ten decks didn't have him. When talking about standard bannings, this is the precedent that has been set. The card in question must be the engine of a deck that rules the format with an iron fist. Jeskai Ascendancy is not only not accomplishing this, it's failing to do so dramatically. Standard is very healthy and varied at the moment, as a quick glance at this very forum will tell you.
Among the reasons cited by members of this forum on the topic of banning the Ascendancy, a few stick out: it "warps the format," it "turns the game into solitaire," it "takes forever to go off," it's "unbeatable" or "broken," etc. There've been posts comparing it to the infamous Extended/Modern behemoth Eggs.
This is, frankly, absurd.
When a deck "warps the format," it needs to reach the degree mentioned above. It must be Ravager Affinity. It must be Caw-Blade. It must be almost 90% of the day 2 decks at a Grand Prix. Jeskai Ascendancy has, according to mtgtop8's current metagame analysis, 3 notable finishes (2 top-8s and a single 1st place), and 6th place at a daily. A single Pro Tour top 8 and a few random SCG tournaments is not a "format-warping" deck. There've been three Grand Prix in the last 3 weeks, and not a single Jeskai Ascendancy deck placed in any of them. None. At the most recent (Grand Prix Santiago last week), there were 3 Abzan Midrange decks and 3 Temur Aggro decks in the top 8. Abzan placed first, second, and third. The two remaining decks were a single RDW deck and a single Whip Reanimator deck. Where's the Ascendancy? Either not being played or simply being beaten.
So clearly Jeskai Ascendancy is not "warping the format."
With regard to "being a solitaire deck" or "taking forever to go off," both of those points are likewise ridiculous. Regardless of whether your opponent is playing Umbrella Revolution or Heroic, the deck still wins with a loop. In Umbrella Revolution the combo is as follows:
Have two mana dorks without summoning sickness, an Ascendancy, and a Dragon Mantle enchanting one of your dorks or a mana dork without summoning sickness, Ascendancy, and Briber's Purse. Along with this board state, you need a Retraction Helix in hand.
Cast Retraction Helix targeting one mana dork.
Tap the Helix'd dork to bounce Dragon Mantle/Briber's Purse to your hand.
Tap the other dork to generate one red mana and cast Dragon Mantle or recast Briber's Purse for free.
Ascendancy triggers, untapping both dorks.
Draw a card off of Dragon Mantle's effect/Loot with Ascendancy's effect.
All your opponent needs to do is demonstrate the loop and you can either scoop or let them draw into their wincon. Either way, it isn't like Eggs. You don't sit there and watch your opponent go off. If they can show you the loop and you have no way to stop them, you've lost the game. The Heroic version does essentially the same song-and-dance, but replaces the bounced Mantle/Purse with a Springleaf Drum to use Ascendancy's looting to draw into enough Retraction Helixes to bounce blockers, or a Gods Willing to make their guy unblockable and then swing for lethal. Either way, it's a loop. You don't have to make them repeat the actions over and over again. In fact, it's a rules violation if you do. If the opponent insists on going through the motions themselves, call a judge and report them for slow play. It's more like Melira Pod or Splinter Twin than Eggs.
As to the perceived "unbeatability" of the deck, allow me to direct you to some hate cards:
Basically, anything that can hit enchantments or creatures (especially sweepers) will make this deck cry. Only mono-black has a real problem with hate cards. Umbrella Revolution has a minimum 4-card combo, but the Heroic version needs 5 cards 100% of the time. Remove any of them, especially the Ascendancy, and it's dead in the water until it finds another. Compared to the efficiency of Melira (3-card combo) or Twin (several different possible 2-card combos), this deck is incredibly fragile. And yet, nobody seems to demand those combos get banned.
Of the several existing variations of Jeskai Ascendancy, only one of them has one a tournament, and it was based largely on surprise factor (nobody knew how to sideboard against the Heroic deck at the time). The tournament, by the way, was a StarCityGames Open, making it lower-level than a PTQ or Grand Prix. The deck got a lot of hype because it made an impressive showing and it's a great deck, but the instant a combo deck is successful in Standard a few people go nuts.
Is Jeskai Ascendancy a powerful card? Yes. Are the combo decks good? Definitely. But they aren't a problem. It's just another good deck in a very powerful and very varied Standard set. Just bring some Anger of the Gods in your sideboard if it bothers you that much.
P.S.: Some players actually like using combo decks! Crazy, right?
Good post, agree 100%! Having a competitive combo deck in standard again is awesome. It's at the perfect powerlevel too, it's good, but not dominating. It's not hard to hate if you're prepared.
Affinity was not as oppressive as the legends say it was. 12 Post / Tooth and Nail took the Worlds that year. Goblins and and March of the Machines were also competetive. The problem was, people hated the deck! The speed of the deck was unheard of to Standard players. The deck was considered far less skill intensive than top Standard decks of the recent past (Wake, Opposition, etc). Furthermore, the deck really took the format by storm, and by the time the format had answered it, too many players had already quit (the months of Skullclamp didn't help retain players either).
Point being that bans in Standard are often based on declining popularity as much as actual brokeness. If too many Standard players haye combo and leave the game, expect a ban.
Just to nit-pick, Lilliana sees close to as much Legacy play, and I hear Dack Fayden is a Vintage all-star. Overall I liied your post and tend to agree. I don't play standard, but I like for future eternal players to get a taste for diversity of archetypes, including combo. If we could just bring back prison, ponza, and draw/go we'd be all set!
I played against Ascendancy last weekend. What only irks me is that when I saw my opponent starting to combo off, I asked if it is combo for the win. He ignored me and just played solitaire until the guy next to me said that the game is pretty much over. He still continued and I forced him to stop when I started scooping my cards.
However as far as experience is concerned, the deck is not that broken, provided you got the right answers. In our 2nd game, I manage to Thoughtseize his Ascendancies and Despise his dorks. He was pretty much irritated whenever I cast those. At one point he was tapped out and at 16 lives, I swing for a total of 8 damage. He was just pretty much composed and gladly took the damage... until I flashed my Dictate of the Twin Gods and made him scoop. Also, Stain the Mind from the SB makes him concede every time.
I was playing BR Minotaurs by the way.
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Affinity was not as oppressive as the legends say it was. 12 Post / Tooth and Nail took the Worlds that year. Goblins and and March of the Machines were also competetive. The problem was, people hated the deck! The speed of the deck was unheard of to Standard players. The deck was considered far less skill intensive than top Standard decks of the recent past (Wake, Opposition, etc). Furthermore, the deck really took the format by storm, and by the time the format had answered it, too many players had already quit (the months of Skullclamp didn't help retain players either).
Oppressiveness is not just "pure" results. Further, it wasn't even that the deck was unbeatable. It had to do with how much it skewed the meta. Affinity standard was a standard that can be described as "Play Affinity or a deck that specifically hates affinity". And that's honestly what the meta was. Affinity was *everywhere* then, and the format was clogged heavily with it. If your deck couldn't beat affinity, or even had a poor match-up against it, you just could not compete. If you had a poor match-up against Tooth/Nail (And it's more tron, not 12-post), you could still compete as you only had to face the deck a handful of times for the dozens of affinity matches. And affinity *still* put up insane numbers. It was not uncommon at all for Affinity to comprise half or better of any given top 8 of the major events that year. At the worlds itself, 3 of 8 were affinity, which says a lot.
Equally, that's hardly even where the problem was. The major issue was that Affinity was excessively prevalent at the local levels of play, to the point where players were not playing the game anymore. That is where the largest issue with Affinity arose from. You much realize that the vast majority of players do not play at anything approaching the pro level. Affinity was posing significant problems at the higher levels of play, and this was only exacerbated at local events to the point where people stopped playing completely, and player population nose-dived because of it.
Affinity was hated so much because it was everywhere, for all intents and purposes, and was incredibly difficult to hate out for the average player as well. Most FNM level events at the time were dominated by Affinity, and it sucked. Hard.
I played against Ascendancy last weekend. What only irks me is that when I saw my opponent starting to combo off, I asked if it is combo for the win. He ignored me and just played solitaire until the guy next to me said that the game is pretty much over. He still continued and I forced him to stop when I started scooping my cards.
However as far as experience is concerned, the deck is not that broken, provided you got the right answers. In our 2nd game, I manage to Thoughtseize his Ascendancies and Despise his dorks. He was pretty much irritated whenever I cast those. At one point he was tapped out and at 16 lives, I swing for a total of 8 damage. He was just pretty much composed and gladly took the damage... until I flashed my Dictate of the Twin Gods and made him scoop. Also, Stain the Mind from the SB makes him concede every time.
I was playing BR Minotaurs by the way.
I played against one last FNM and had similar results. Thought he was just running a Temur Monsters deck or something and just got screwed on draws, because first game I killed him before I realized he was up to. Game 2 I boarded into a what I thought his deck was and he managed to pull off his combo by turn 4 or so. I couldn't draw a black source for Crackling Doom in time (nor did I prioritize it that quickly). He demonstrated the loop and I let him play it out until I saw the Altar of the Brood, then scooped and went to game 3. Boarded in 2x Glare of Heresy, 2x Erase, 3x Thoughtseize, 2x Read the Bones and ended up crushing him. Once I didn't have to worry about any other threat than the combo, I could just put stuff on the board and swing while holding up at least 1 mana for disruption. Rabblemaster + outburst + Butcher + him not blocking = quick death anyway. I didn't even need to use any of the disruption spells I boarded in. That version of the deck has zero defenses since it doesn't want to block with its Caryatid and there's really no other interaction. So once you know that, you can kill them pretty quickly. Playing Mardu Aggro/Midrange.
I played against one last FNM and had similar results. Thought he was just running a Temur Monsters deck or something and just got screwed on draws, because first game I killed him before I realized he was up to. Game 2 I boarded into a what I thought his deck was and he managed to pull off his combo by turn 4 or so. I couldn't draw a black source for Crackling Doom in time (nor did I prioritize it that quickly). He demonstrated the loop and I let him play it out until I saw the Altar of the Brood, then scooped and went to game 3. Boarded in 2x Glare of Heresy, 2x Erase, 3x Thoughtseize, 2x Read the Bones and ended up crushing him. Once I didn't have to worry about any other threat than the combo, I could just put stuff on the board and swing while holding up at least 1 mana for disruption. Rabblemaster + outburst + Butcher + him not blocking = quick death anyway. I didn't even need to use any of the disruption spells I boarded in. That version of the deck has zero defenses since it doesn't want to block with its Caryatid and there's really no other interaction. So once you know that, you can kill them pretty quickly. Playing Mardu Aggro/Midrange.
I agree. Fast aggro beats actually finishes them off quickly since they really don't want to block with their dorks.
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I find that no matter how much you dig the combo has a hard time going off. My modern deck uses it to make big finishes but I don't see it as being good enough without some heavy help.
Affinity was not as oppressive as the legends say it was. 12 Post / Tooth and Nail took the Worlds that year.
For a deck that "took the Worlds" it managed to somehow not get a single deck in the Top 8. Also, I believe you mean Urzatron, not 12-Post, because at that point in history not even 8-Post existed yet (Vesuva made it 8-Post, and Glimmerpost made it 12-Post). More to the point...
Goblins and and March of the Machines were also competitive.
You seem to be getting your years mixed up. The Worlds you refer to was the Worlds 2004 (because Goblins was hardly a deck once Onslaught left), and at that point, while Affinity was extremely powerful, it wasn't quite the monster it would become later. The problem came is that after decks like Goblins and Astral Slide rotated out (i.e. after 2004 Worlds), there wasn't really much of anything to challenge Affinity, and that's when it truly became a problem and got hit hard with bans.
Affinity was not as oppressive as the legends say it was. 12 Post / Tooth and Nail took the Worlds that year.
For a deck that "took the Worlds" it managed to somehow not get a single deck in the Top 8. Also, I believe you mean Urzatron, not 12-Post, because at that point in history not even 8-Post existed yet (Vesuva made it 8-Post, and Glimmerpost made it 12-Post).
Tooth and Nail switched to an Urzatron mana base, but before that was the original 12-post. The deck was named as such becasue Sylvan Scrying and Reap And Sew gave you twelve cards which could get you a Cloudpost.
You are right that it was Slide, not T&N that took the worlds. My bad.
—Karn, silver golem
I could see it getting banned in Modern because they are much more aggressive about banning cards. In Standard, they only ban cards if it's just a crazy situation. And even then they'll still wait a couple of months to do so. The only times cards have been banned in Standard since we've switched to the Modern card frame are:
Skullclamp: because it got to the point where Skullclamp was in every deck that T8'd a tournament, even though the format was actually somewhat diverse.
Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault/Artifact lands: Because the Affinity deck once Ravager had been printed turned into a resilient combo that went off very fast. Format was largely skewed toward affinity.
Stoneforge Mystic/Jace the Mind Sculptor: Again, the format was skewed heavily toward a deck that played both of these cards. Like... over 50% of the field. To the point where JTMS was a 100 dollar card. And it really only saw play in the one deck. The only card that has come close to that money value recently was Bonfire of the Damned at 50 dollars, but it was in multiple decks and it rose and fell out of popularity during it's reign in Standard. It's worth noting that in the case of Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, they waited until the two cards were a few months from rotating out anyway, and they waited until they could see a marked decrease in tournament attendence at GPs and other major tournaments.
So basically that's what it will take for Ascendency to get banned. The card probably needs to represent a vast majority of the field (which it's not looking like it currently), and it needs to get to the point where people aren't going to tournaments anymore.
In the final Abzan got mana screw in game 1 and then had an End Hostilities countered in game 3.
The other 2 decks in the finals were GB constellation. Who rates that as a T1 deck? Not me.
The point is that the rest of the creatures are usually quite bad, or at least bad enough that they'll lose to any T1 deck. When I say Akroan is important, I'm talking both about comboing off an empty board and winning as a heroic deck. Akroan is the only creature in the deck that is very strong for both approaches. If you are playing against this deck and they don't have a Crusader or Ascendancy out you should feel very good about your chances.
Even with Ascendancy out, the other creatures are really sub-optimal. An infinite combo doesn't really mean anything if your infinite power creatures have summoning sickness. Sorcery speed board wipes like Anger of the Gods, or even Doomwake Giant are enough to deal with them in a lot of cases. Cards like Ulcerate and Murderous Cut might be necessary early on though to prevent the creatures from growing too large.
Holy hyperbole Batman.
Legacy levels of power? I saw no games where ascendancy won on turn 1. I saw no games where ascendancy won on turn 2.
I woukd be amazed if this card was banned in standard. Its a 4 card combo in a format with thoughtseize if people want to beat it they will. It won a single tournament held on a gp weekend (in a format that attracts high level players) on the other side of the country from the main grinders of said tournament. Why dont we wait a few weeks before calling the format broken.
It's possible that this deck comes to dominate the format for a time, but we're nowhere near that point right now. It's just a funky brew that unexpectedly won an SCG tournament. People should be happy that there are combo pieces in standard. It strengthens and diversifies the meta. THS-KTK standard is a jillion times more fun than RTR-THS was. There are literally dozens of competitively viable decks right now and it seems like the deciding factor is usually good gamepley and heads-up deckbuilding. The meta is shifting weekly and just about any solid brew is viable.
I am honestly pumped about the situation.
GB Constellation made up 3 of the top 8 decks in the tournament. Pretty strong showing for a non tier 1 deck.
My point exactly. West Coast GP weekend, super weak tourny.
Hey, now, be nice.
The most recent was caw-blade, which dominated standard for months. Usually, Wizards measures these things by a downtick in GP attendance -- or so I've been told. It's probably not the only stick they use (I would imagine R&D messes on MODO for a bit) but it's certainly a good way to tell if players are enjoying a format.
This deck is good but certainly beatable. A bit of tight play will tumble this glass cannon as it's not that much different than the Ascendancy Combo.
Skull clamp was actully only in 66% of top 8 decks lists.
For comparison Ravanger was 44%.
As for Jace he was actully in a variety of decks and reached Ravanger levels of top 8 even before jund roatated. Post rotation the decks started to tend towards caw blade decks and reached skull clamp levels of top 8's. After batterskull Jace (mostly caw blade) was 75% of the top 8.
As for ascendancy prior to this weekend I would have said that this thread was an overreaction. This weekend the deck looked a tier above all the rest of the field. I'm not seeing any point in discussing it till we see what happens in the next few weeks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
The ONLY motivation for banning cards in standard is a drop off of tournament attendance at the higher levels. Doesn't matter how broken a deck is or how many are in the top 8. If attendance doesn't drop no ban is coming.
I believe your Ravager numbers. I'm a little confused as to how you came by the Skullclamp numbers. Clearly I didn't look at every T8 list, but I do remember an article that came up after or just before the ban where in the last tournament it was in all the T8 lists. And things like Elf and Nail became viable decks because they basically just piggy-backed on the strength of Skullclamp.
This is just a guess from me, but I would think that at first the Skullclamp numbers were lower back when the format was Goblins, Affinity and control decks. Then when they figured out how degenerate the card could get you started to see it more. It's also worth mentioning to people that weren't around back then that there wasn't a major tournament every week so the metagame didn't change nearly as quickly as it did now.
In any case we both agree that for a card to get banned in standard, it has to be really damaging. It can't just be in a deck that makes up 40% of the format.
This is completely ridiculous.
First, let's take a look at what cards have been banned in Standard in the past (spoiler alert: not many)
Arcbound Ravager
Darksteel Citadel
Disciple of the Vault
Dream Halls
Earthcraft
Fluctuator
Great Furnace
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lotus Petal
Memory Jar
Mind Over Matter
Recurring Nightmare
Seat of the Synod
Skullclamp
Stoneforge Mystic
Time Spiral
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
Nine of those nineteen cards are from one deck, the infamous Ravager Affinity, that utterly dominated a format in a way never before seen. If you weren't playing Ravager Affinity you had to devote at least 8 slots, maindeck, to hating it out and even then you weren't guaranteed anything. Brian Kibler said at the time: "Everyone thinks that their decks deal with Affinity, and they honestly don't. ... You win nearly every single game 1 matchup in the format, and then games 2 and 3 are usually 50/50 or 60/40 against you, which is still pretty good odds when you are already up a game."
So that's how powerful a deck has to be before it gets banned in Standard. But what about an individual card?
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is hands-down the best Planeswalker ever printed. Stoneforge Mystic is an overpowered engine that tutors up any equipment (all too often Sword of Feast and Famine or Batterskull) and cheat it into play. These two cards were the crux of the Caw-Blade decks that dominated the format at the time, but they were not played exclusively in that deck. Aaron Forsythe wrote in his article on the bannings that "The Standard metagame is stagnant and unhealthy at the moment, and has been for months. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is appearing in winning deck lists an alarming percentage of the time, with Stoneforge Mystic appearing almost as often. For reference, 88% of the decks in Day 2 of Grand Prix Singapore contained multiple copies of Jace, and almost 70% of the Day 2 decks contained Stoneforge Mystic. The numbers from Pro Tour Qualifiers and independent large events like the StarCityGames.com Open Series look very similar."
88%. Only one in ten decks didn't have him. When talking about standard bannings, this is the precedent that has been set. The card in question must be the engine of a deck that rules the format with an iron fist. Jeskai Ascendancy is not only not accomplishing this, it's failing to do so dramatically. Standard is very healthy and varied at the moment, as a quick glance at this very forum will tell you.
Among the reasons cited by members of this forum on the topic of banning the Ascendancy, a few stick out: it "warps the format," it "turns the game into solitaire," it "takes forever to go off," it's "unbeatable" or "broken," etc. There've been posts comparing it to the infamous Extended/Modern behemoth Eggs.
This is, frankly, absurd.
When a deck "warps the format," it needs to reach the degree mentioned above. It must be Ravager Affinity. It must be Caw-Blade. It must be almost 90% of the day 2 decks at a Grand Prix. Jeskai Ascendancy has, according to mtgtop8's current metagame analysis, 3 notable finishes (2 top-8s and a single 1st place), and 6th place at a daily. A single Pro Tour top 8 and a few random SCG tournaments is not a "format-warping" deck. There've been three Grand Prix in the last 3 weeks, and not a single Jeskai Ascendancy deck placed in any of them. None. At the most recent (Grand Prix Santiago last week), there were 3 Abzan Midrange decks and 3 Temur Aggro decks in the top 8. Abzan placed first, second, and third. The two remaining decks were a single RDW deck and a single Whip Reanimator deck. Where's the Ascendancy? Either not being played or simply being beaten.
So clearly Jeskai Ascendancy is not "warping the format."
With regard to "being a solitaire deck" or "taking forever to go off," both of those points are likewise ridiculous. Regardless of whether your opponent is playing Umbrella Revolution or Heroic, the deck still wins with a loop. In Umbrella Revolution the combo is as follows:
As to the perceived "unbeatability" of the deck, allow me to direct you to some hate cards:
Of the several existing variations of Jeskai Ascendancy, only one of them has one a tournament, and it was based largely on surprise factor (nobody knew how to sideboard against the Heroic deck at the time). The tournament, by the way, was a StarCityGames Open, making it lower-level than a PTQ or Grand Prix. The deck got a lot of hype because it made an impressive showing and it's a great deck, but the instant a combo deck is successful in Standard a few people go nuts.
Is Jeskai Ascendancy a powerful card? Yes. Are the combo decks good? Definitely. But they aren't a problem. It's just another good deck in a very powerful and very varied Standard set. Just bring some Anger of the Gods in your sideboard if it bothers you that much.
P.S.: Some players actually like using combo decks! Crazy, right?
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Thanks,
-rujasu
Point being that bans in Standard are often based on declining popularity as much as actual brokeness. If too many Standard players haye combo and leave the game, expect a ban.
Just to nit-pick, Lilliana sees close to as much Legacy play, and I hear Dack Fayden is a Vintage all-star. Overall I liied your post and tend to agree. I don't play standard, but I like for future eternal players to get a taste for diversity of archetypes, including combo. If we could just bring back prison, ponza, and draw/go we'd be all set!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
However as far as experience is concerned, the deck is not that broken, provided you got the right answers. In our 2nd game, I manage to Thoughtseize his Ascendancies and Despise his dorks. He was pretty much irritated whenever I cast those. At one point he was tapped out and at 16 lives, I swing for a total of 8 damage. He was just pretty much composed and gladly took the damage... until I flashed my Dictate of the Twin Gods and made him scoop. Also, Stain the Mind from the SB makes him concede every time.
I was playing BR Minotaurs by the way.
Oppressiveness is not just "pure" results. Further, it wasn't even that the deck was unbeatable. It had to do with how much it skewed the meta. Affinity standard was a standard that can be described as "Play Affinity or a deck that specifically hates affinity". And that's honestly what the meta was. Affinity was *everywhere* then, and the format was clogged heavily with it. If your deck couldn't beat affinity, or even had a poor match-up against it, you just could not compete. If you had a poor match-up against Tooth/Nail (And it's more tron, not 12-post), you could still compete as you only had to face the deck a handful of times for the dozens of affinity matches. And affinity *still* put up insane numbers. It was not uncommon at all for Affinity to comprise half or better of any given top 8 of the major events that year. At the worlds itself, 3 of 8 were affinity, which says a lot.
Equally, that's hardly even where the problem was. The major issue was that Affinity was excessively prevalent at the local levels of play, to the point where players were not playing the game anymore. That is where the largest issue with Affinity arose from. You much realize that the vast majority of players do not play at anything approaching the pro level. Affinity was posing significant problems at the higher levels of play, and this was only exacerbated at local events to the point where people stopped playing completely, and player population nose-dived because of it.
Affinity was hated so much because it was everywhere, for all intents and purposes, and was incredibly difficult to hate out for the average player as well. Most FNM level events at the time were dominated by Affinity, and it sucked. Hard.
I played against one last FNM and had similar results. Thought he was just running a Temur Monsters deck or something and just got screwed on draws, because first game I killed him before I realized he was up to. Game 2 I boarded into a what I thought his deck was and he managed to pull off his combo by turn 4 or so. I couldn't draw a black source for Crackling Doom in time (nor did I prioritize it that quickly). He demonstrated the loop and I let him play it out until I saw the Altar of the Brood, then scooped and went to game 3. Boarded in 2x Glare of Heresy, 2x Erase, 3x Thoughtseize, 2x Read the Bones and ended up crushing him. Once I didn't have to worry about any other threat than the combo, I could just put stuff on the board and swing while holding up at least 1 mana for disruption. Rabblemaster + outburst + Butcher + him not blocking = quick death anyway. I didn't even need to use any of the disruption spells I boarded in. That version of the deck has zero defenses since it doesn't want to block with its Caryatid and there's really no other interaction. So once you know that, you can kill them pretty quickly. Playing Mardu Aggro/Midrange.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I agree. Fast aggro beats actually finishes them off quickly since they really don't want to block with their dorks.
I find that no matter how much you dig the combo has a hard time going off. My modern deck uses it to make big finishes but I don't see it as being good enough without some heavy help.
You seem to be getting your years mixed up. The Worlds you refer to was the Worlds 2004 (because Goblins was hardly a deck once Onslaught left), and at that point, while Affinity was extremely powerful, it wasn't quite the monster it would become later. The problem came is that after decks like Goblins and Astral Slide rotated out (i.e. after 2004 Worlds), there wasn't really much of anything to challenge Affinity, and that's when it truly became a problem and got hit hard with bans.
Tooth and Nail switched to an Urzatron mana base, but before that was the original 12-post. The deck was named as such becasue Sylvan Scrying and Reap And Sew gave you twelve cards which could get you a Cloudpost.
You are right that it was Slide, not T&N that took the worlds. My bad.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats