Thought the point of a control deck was to make all your opponent's removal virtually useless? Empty the Pits seems like the only true finisher. Prognostic Sphinx is terrible at closing games, and your opponent doesn't need to kill it, just make you tap it so they can attack through. Same with pearl lake ancient, can be chumped for days, and if your opponent is attacking they simply need to make you bounce it, it's not likely you'll be able to redeploy next turn, and even if you can all those dead kill spells they accumulated to that point suddenly allow them to attack through this terrible blocker. Sagu Mauler makes the ancient look like garbage, people really shouldn't try to force past color combinations in this new environment.
Yeah but with pearl lake ancient returning that land leaves you way behind. Control needs to hit land drops, and likes a good amount of mana for denial/kill/disruption/draw spells. I just don't see how returning 3 lands to my hand is anything I want to do. Plus, then you have to re cast the thing 3 lands behind. Even if you wait until turn 10 to play it in the first place, then you can only cast it next turn, leaving no available mana for anything else.
Thanks everyone for all your input. I'm going to test Resolute Archangel this weekend. I've decided with Prognostic Sphinx for now. Hopefully I can get some testing before Friday.
I don't think it gets much better than Sphinx. While it doesn't outright kill the 4/4s produced by Sarkhan (who is indestructible anyway) and Nissa, the 3 power DOES take out Mantis Rider which is quite relevant. In a control deck your goal is to stabilize and win through card advantage. Sphinx doesn't need to represent a 3 turn clock or anything to do its job since it fixes your draws and allows you to keep the lockdown going.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
The 3 land to bounce in order to save it is a huge loss of resources. It comes down to that really. Also lack of evasion. It's my opinion that Elspeth / Prognostic / Heliod are the best finishers (for U/W) for Esper I would run 1x Empty the pits and some number of Ashiok.
To me it sounds like you're just jamming Ancient too early. If your opponent's hand is stacked with removal, you don't play the ancient without ~10 lands.
Empty the Pits is awesome, but if MD countermagic or Bile Blight becomes a thing it's still less reliable
It looks terrible, I have no idea how it realistically wins http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/87537
Should at least have 2 if not more Last Breath mainboard. Answers Rabblemaster and Courser, that's well over half the field.
It looks terrible, I have no idea how it realistically wins http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/87537
Should at least have 2 if not more Last Breath mainboard. Answers Rabblemaster and Courser, that's well over half the field.
Just seems super clunky.
Thanks for the link that helps. The Deck to me looks like it needs more early spells but that's another topic. Elspeth and Heliod would work .
I can understand some of the arguments about PLA, and I actually completely forgot about Sagu Mauler. While I like the Sphinx in some blue midrange type decks, I'm not sure if dumping my hand to maintain an active hexproof is really where I want to be when playing a draw-go style control deck. Granted, again, for midrange or a more tapout style control I don't see that as being 'quite' as terrible as having 2-3 lands in your hand isn't quite as relevant.
I think this will ultimately be decided better when the meta truly unfolds. Heliod or any other god, however, I don't think will be reliable by itself because 'god killers' IE Deicide and Unravel the aether are still cards, with the former that was seen in a lot of mainboards as gods and Coursers and UWC was pretty relevant this past season.
In regards to Sphinx, I don't think people realize how small your hand will be going forward without Revelation, you're suppose to be gaining card advantage, not trading cards you need for their removal which has limited targets.
dis mah deck for now but im 99% sure im gonna go 4 or 5 color for kiora extra card draw, fatty lockdown and win con. sorin is my lifelink after stabilising vs aggro and his relatively quick ult stops midrange, ashiok beats the midrange and is a big disruption vs control and elspeth is the go to slayer. lands still a work in progress so using my pre rotation scry lands as the base. sideboard comes in when the meta is more established.
How has the testing been? I thought Skulker was utter trash. I still think it is. I can't get behind Heliod Either, although it's nice to have him and Sphinx out I guess. Not utilizing Treasure Cruise / DTT seems odd to me.
Right now I'm a little light on threats with 2x Elspeth and 2x Sphinx. Gaining control of games is not so difficult, but actually winning the game sometimes is. There's so many games that go super late with 10+ cards in my yard even after casting a Dig Through Time, I'm thinking of cutting one of the Murderous Cut's to move the Empty the Pits to the main.
It probably is best to start another thread about esper control and card choices with regards to a few things:
- Card draw spells (Divination, Jace's Ingenuity, Dig Through Time, etc)
- How many Utter End is MB/SB
- Is Drown in Sorrow good in MB
- Thoughtseize MB or SB? (Depends on Meta I guess)
- Sideboard choices (More counters? Glare of Heresy any good (dead against Mono G, RG, Mono Black, Sultai) but hits Abzan, Mardu, Jeskai)
Seems like the big reason to go esper is Thoughtseize, but without a way to easily gain the life back (nyx sheep are pretty clunky in a deck with multiple wraths, let's be honest), I'm not sure it's the best control color. I'm currently running U/W/R, so 2/3 of the esper colors, and my finishers right now are 2 Sarkhan, 2 Keranos, 1 Sphinx and 1 Resolute Archangel. I think I would prefer Elspeth over the Sphinx, but I'm testing the list tonight and may try to trade into an Elspeth or two if Sphinx doesn't perform.
Those of you that are talking about card advantage + sphinx, remember that they are spending a card to target your sphinx, so even though you have to discard one, you're retaining parity. Blue's card draw should easily keep you flush enough to be able to afford to turn random cards into God's Willing.
Seems like the big reason to go esper is Thoughtseize, but without a way to easily gain the life back (nyx sheep are pretty clunky in a deck with multiple wraths, let's be honest), I'm not sure it's the best control color. I'm currently running U/W/R, so 2/3 of the esper colors, and my finishers right now are 2 Sarkhan, 2 Keranos, 1 Sphinx and 1 Resolute Archangel. I think I would prefer Elspeth over the Sphinx, but I'm testing the list tonight and may try to trade into an Elspeth or two if Sphinx doesn't perform.
Those of you that are talking about card advantage + sphinx, remember that they are spending a card to target your sphinx, so even though you have to discard one, you're retaining parity. Blue's card draw should easily keep you flush enough to be able to afford to turn random cards into God's Willing.
I would be very surprised if Jeskai Control does not turn out to be at least somewhat decent. It has all of the tools it needs, but I think the ability of black to kill resolved Planeswalkers with Hero's Downfall and Utter End is not to be underestimated, as it looks like we will be a seeing a *lot* of Planeswalker heavy midrange and even superfriends (Naya and Jeskai) this season.
I'm also a huge fan of the Thoughtseize + Despise package right now, as both are great against midrange and imo the best early game plan right now for Esper. I see some lists running Last Breath and it just seems awful, it's so incredibility narrow right now. Courser of Kruphix is about the only relevant thing it hits.
The gameplan with my list (3 posts above) is to use Thoughtseize and Despise to deal with early threats from mid range, while just accepting the fact that my game 1 against aggro is going to be tough. There's no reason to be scared of the mono 1 drop decks imo because they are being hated out hard by the midrange meta. Aggro will likely exist, but will have to go less all-in and will likely look more like the Jeskai Tempo deck than Rabble Red.
Seems like the big reason to go esper is Thoughtseize, but without a way to easily gain the life back (nyx sheep are pretty clunky in a deck with multiple wraths, let's be honest), I'm not sure it's the best control color. I'm currently running U/W/R, so 2/3 of the esper colors, and my finishers right now are 2 Sarkhan, 2 Keranos, 1 Sphinx and 1 Resolute Archangel. I think I would prefer Elspeth over the Sphinx, but I'm testing the list tonight and may try to trade into an Elspeth or two if Sphinx doesn't perform.
Those of you that are talking about card advantage + sphinx, remember that they are spending a card to target your sphinx, so even though you have to discard one, you're retaining parity. Blue's card draw should easily keep you flush enough to be able to afford to turn random cards into God's Willing.
I would be very surprised if Jeskai Control does not turn out to be at least somewhat decent. It has all of the tools it needs, but I think the ability of black to kill resolved Planeswalkers with Hero's Downfall and Utter End is not to be underestimated, as it looks like we will be a seeing a *lot* of Planeswalker heavy midrange and even superfriends (Naya and Jeskai) this season.
I'm also a huge fan of the Thoughtseize + Despise package right now, as both are great against midrange and imo the best early game plan right now for Esper. I see some lists running Last Breath and it just seems awful, it's so incredibility narrow right now. Courser of Kruphix is about the only relevant thing it hits.
The gameplan with my list (3 posts above) is to use Thoughtseize and Despise to deal with early threats from mid range, while just accepting the fact that my game 1 against aggro is going to be tough. There's no reason to be scared of the mono 1 drop decks imo because they are being hated out hard by the midrange meta. Aggro will likely exist, but will have to go less all-in and will likely look more like the Jeskai Tempo deck than Rabble Red.
Just my 2 cents.
With a lot of the midrange lists running Rabblemaster and all the ones that aren't running Courser, I don't mind having 2 Last Breath at all. I agree with you that Walker decks are an issue for control in general at the moment. Black has Hero's Downfall, the best answer, white has Banishing Light, W/B has Utter End, red has Pyromancer's Ascension which kills anything and various burn spells depending on the walker, and blue and green don't have an answer that isn't just attacking.
In my opinion, white actually has the best creature removal tools once the meta is known, with Last Breath, Chained to the Rocks, Devouring Light, Banishing Light, and Pillar of Light (god, they couldn't come up with better names for these?) - but the problem is they're all conditional. Banishing Light is great, but in a control deck with few other permanents it's sometimes a liability. I think it needs to be run alongside Suspension Field or Chained to the Rocks to really shine, but neither of those are ideal in most control builds.
Rabblemater comes down on turn 3, which is when your Counterspells and Hero's Downfalls are online. On the draw, having to take one swing from a Rabblemaster isn't the end of the world unless they're playing a Rabble Red style deck, in which case your hopes of winning G1 are slim to none. As I mentioned, though, it seems unlikely that these decks will be able to compete with a lot of the midrange plans, so it's hopefully not something to be terribly worried about. I have 8 cards to bring in against aggro though, but I'm hoping that as the meta develops I can shave this down if my predictions prove correct to make more room for cards against midrange.
On the point of discussion about finishing creature, I think we mostly agree that Pearl Lake Ancient or Prognostic Sphinx are the go-to creature options available. Now, I think the Ancient is an awesome card, but not against every match. It should be in the sideboard against control, or actually I think against Temur players. If you're in a control mirror - an actual control deck, not a midrangy one or something - then the lack of evasion isn't really relevant because there aren't really creatures to evade. And probably most players would likely take out most of their spot removal after game 1 against a control deck, so it's not like they'll have tons of removal to throw at it. Also, against Temur decks it can ambush viper their creatures - it'll eat most of them - and those colors don't really have the spot removal that'll just shoot it down.
Outside of those matches, the Sphinx is just better. Yes, it's a slow clock - but it also enables you such control over your draws that you shouldn't have a hard time managing the game until it does get there.
I hadn't seen this mentioned so far, but I think there is another creature that is worth mentioning in here. Tromokratis. It has hexproof, has it's own form of evasion, is a huge beater to begin with. His liability is when he attacks in, it has to be instant speed, and you have the ability to hold your countermagic for that. With fetches and painlands and other things considered, he might only need two combat steps to just end the game. I think it's worth trying out
On the point of discussion about finishing creature, I think we mostly agree that Pearl Lake Ancient or Prognostic Sphinx are the go-to creature options available. Now, I think the Ancient is an awesome card, but not against every match. It should be in the sideboard against control, or actually I think against Temur players. If you're in a control mirror - an actual control deck, not a midrangy one or something - then the lack of evasion isn't really relevant because there aren't really creatures to evade. And probably most players would likely take out most of their spot removal after game 1 against a control deck, so it's not like they'll have tons of removal to throw at it. Also, against Temur decks it can ambush viper their creatures - it'll eat most of them - and those colors don't really have the spot removal that'll just shoot it down.
Outside of those matches, the Sphinx is just better. Yes, it's a slow clock - but it also enables you such control over your draws that you shouldn't have a hard time managing the game until it does get there.
I hadn't seen this mentioned so far, but I think there is another creature that is worth mentioning in here. Tromokratis. It has hexproof, has it's own form of evasion, is a huge beater to begin with. His liability is when he attacks in, it has to be instant speed, and you have the ability to hold your countermagic for that. With fetches and painlands and other things considered, he might only need two combat steps to just end the game. I think it's worth trying out
I mostly agree with your points on Pearl Lake Ancient. I've had a little difficulty with RUG and Jeskai in my testing and I feel like he could be a house in those matchups, but I really wouldn't want him in the main.
Tromokratis is something I looked at and actually thought about for a few minutes but I don't think he's worth his cost - I feel like I'd rather have a 5 mana Sphinx than this guy most of the time. I also don't want to have to worry too much about protecting my threats. It's quite likely your opponent has been holding onto a Hero's Downfall or Jeskai Charm or some form of instant speed removal the whole game, and when this guy swings he just turns those on. Sphinx is also useful as a blocker, this guy just comes out too late for that to be of any use in many games. I could be underestimating him a little, but I'm fairly confident that Sphinx is the overall best creature for Esper right now.
Youtube Channel
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
The 3 land to bounce in order to save it is a huge loss of resources. It comes down to that really. Also lack of evasion. It's my opinion that Elspeth / Prognostic / Heliod are the best finishers (for U/W) for Esper I would run 1x Empty the pits and some number of Ashiok.
Empty the Pits is awesome, but if MD countermagic or Bile Blight becomes a thing it's still less reliable
Youtube Channel
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/87537
Should at least have 2 if not more Last Breath mainboard. Answers Rabblemaster and Courser, that's well over half the field.
Just seems super clunky.
4x Chasm Skulker
3x Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantments
4x Banishing Light
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
4x Font of Fortunes
Instants / Sorcery's
4x Last Breath
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Negate
3x Divination
2x Dissolve
3x Jace's Ingenuity
3x End Hostilities
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tranquil Cove
1x Radiant Fountain
6x Island
5x Plains
4x Nyx-Fleece Ram
1x Gainsay
1x Glare of Heresy
2x Negate
1x End Hostilities
1x Fated Retribution
3x Suspension Field
2x Disdainful Stroke
I think this will ultimately be decided better when the meta truly unfolds. Heliod or any other god, however, I don't think will be reliable by itself because 'god killers' IE Deicide and Unravel the aether are still cards, with the former that was seen in a lot of mainboards as gods and Coursers and UWC was pretty relevant this past season.
Standard:
UR Control
4x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Other Spells (25)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Despise
2x Negate
2x Dig Through Time
4x Drown in Sorrow
4x Banishing Light
2x End Hostilities
4x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Deceit
It spells "Sorceries", btw.
Youtube Channel
2x Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Spells
2x Despise
4x Thoughtseize
2x Dissipate
4x Dissolve
2x Drown in Sorrow
3x Hero's Downfall
4x End Hostilities
4x Jace's Ingenuity
2x Utter End
2x Murderous Cut
1x Dig Through Time
4x Island
4x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Temple of Silence
4x Polluted Delta
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Caves of Koilos
2x Despise
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Empty the Pits
2x Negate
4x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2x Pharika's Cure
Here is a decklist that finished 2nd in the tcg open 5k (Waco, TX)
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1215663
Analysis of 2 epser decks by Adam Yurchick
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12078
It probably is best to start another thread about esper control and card choices with regards to a few things:
- Card draw spells (Divination, Jace's Ingenuity, Dig Through Time, etc)
- How many Utter End is MB/SB
- Is Drown in Sorrow good in MB
- Thoughtseize MB or SB? (Depends on Meta I guess)
- Sideboard choices (More counters? Glare of Heresy any good (dead against Mono G, RG, Mono Black, Sultai) but hits Abzan, Mardu, Jeskai)
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Those of you that are talking about card advantage + sphinx, remember that they are spending a card to target your sphinx, so even though you have to discard one, you're retaining parity. Blue's card draw should easily keep you flush enough to be able to afford to turn random cards into God's Willing.
I would be very surprised if Jeskai Control does not turn out to be at least somewhat decent. It has all of the tools it needs, but I think the ability of black to kill resolved Planeswalkers with Hero's Downfall and Utter End is not to be underestimated, as it looks like we will be a seeing a *lot* of Planeswalker heavy midrange and even superfriends (Naya and Jeskai) this season.
I'm also a huge fan of the Thoughtseize + Despise package right now, as both are great against midrange and imo the best early game plan right now for Esper. I see some lists running Last Breath and it just seems awful, it's so incredibility narrow right now. Courser of Kruphix is about the only relevant thing it hits.
The gameplan with my list (3 posts above) is to use Thoughtseize and Despise to deal with early threats from mid range, while just accepting the fact that my game 1 against aggro is going to be tough. There's no reason to be scared of the mono 1 drop decks imo because they are being hated out hard by the midrange meta. Aggro will likely exist, but will have to go less all-in and will likely look more like the Jeskai Tempo deck than Rabble Red.
Just my 2 cents.
With a lot of the midrange lists running Rabblemaster and all the ones that aren't running Courser, I don't mind having 2 Last Breath at all. I agree with you that Walker decks are an issue for control in general at the moment. Black has Hero's Downfall, the best answer, white has Banishing Light, W/B has Utter End, red has Pyromancer's Ascension which kills anything and various burn spells depending on the walker, and blue and green don't have an answer that isn't just attacking.
In my opinion, white actually has the best creature removal tools once the meta is known, with Last Breath, Chained to the Rocks, Devouring Light, Banishing Light, and Pillar of Light (god, they couldn't come up with better names for these?) - but the problem is they're all conditional. Banishing Light is great, but in a control deck with few other permanents it's sometimes a liability. I think it needs to be run alongside Suspension Field or Chained to the Rocks to really shine, but neither of those are ideal in most control builds.
Rabblemater comes down on turn 3, which is when your Counterspells and Hero's Downfalls are online. On the draw, having to take one swing from a Rabblemaster isn't the end of the world unless they're playing a Rabble Red style deck, in which case your hopes of winning G1 are slim to none. As I mentioned, though, it seems unlikely that these decks will be able to compete with a lot of the midrange plans, so it's hopefully not something to be terribly worried about. I have 8 cards to bring in against aggro though, but I'm hoping that as the meta develops I can shave this down if my predictions prove correct to make more room for cards against midrange.
Outside of those matches, the Sphinx is just better. Yes, it's a slow clock - but it also enables you such control over your draws that you shouldn't have a hard time managing the game until it does get there.
I hadn't seen this mentioned so far, but I think there is another creature that is worth mentioning in here. Tromokratis. It has hexproof, has it's own form of evasion, is a huge beater to begin with. His liability is when he attacks in, it has to be instant speed, and you have the ability to hold your countermagic for that. With fetches and painlands and other things considered, he might only need two combat steps to just end the game. I think it's worth trying out
I mostly agree with your points on Pearl Lake Ancient. I've had a little difficulty with RUG and Jeskai in my testing and I feel like he could be a house in those matchups, but I really wouldn't want him in the main.
Tromokratis is something I looked at and actually thought about for a few minutes but I don't think he's worth his cost - I feel like I'd rather have a 5 mana Sphinx than this guy most of the time. I also don't want to have to worry too much about protecting my threats. It's quite likely your opponent has been holding onto a Hero's Downfall or Jeskai Charm or some form of instant speed removal the whole game, and when this guy swings he just turns those on. Sphinx is also useful as a blocker, this guy just comes out too late for that to be of any use in many games. I could be underestimating him a little, but I'm fairly confident that Sphinx is the overall best creature for Esper right now.