I will say this though, WOTC also has somewhat of a hand in this, as they have stints of creating powerful control cards but grindy as hell finishers which can lead to some situations where the control player cannot kill you as fast as they would like, or usually can. This is not the player's fault.
This. As I am kind of the one who started the going to time train of thought, I'd like to say that it was never meant as a slight against control players. Play what you like, but at this time, the current control shell is so slow that it can be frustrating to play against due to time limits.
You sir are nicer than I am. I say the same thing with latent tones of hostility. Why? Because almost every control player I've played against will try to rush me when the clock becomes an issue. Sometimes it's just by projecting anxious energy at me after they pass turn, sometimes it's verbal prompting. I usually just respond in jest with something like, "I hear win conditions are in this season, having a few seems good" or something to that avail. It does sorta grind my gears though.
I will say this though, WOTC also has somewhat of a hand in this, as they have stints of creating powerful control cards but grindy as hell finishers which can lead to some situations where the control player cannot kill you as fast as they would like, or usually can. This is not the player's fault.
This. As I am kind of the one who started the going to time train of thought, I'd like to say that it was never meant as a slight against control players. Play what you like, but at this time, the current control shell is so slow that it can be frustrating to play against due to time limits.
I have had more games go to time against control than anything. I usually quit and start a new game after rev 2 or 3 is played because there's no way I can win against that board state in the time alotted.
Now Mono Green on the other hand, may have a chance. I've been thinking, 4 overgrown tombs just to play stain the mind to hit Rev, Verdict, and Elspeth... Just to see the opponent fold.
You sir are nicer than I am. I say the same thing with latent tones of hostility. Why? Because almost every control player I've played against will try to rush me when the clock becomes an issue. Sometimes it's just by projecting anxious energy at me after they pass turn, sometimes it's verbal prompting. I usually just respond in jest with something like, "I hear win conditions are in this season, having a few seems good" or something to that avail. It does sorta grind my gears though.
I can't really judge on the specific situations you are talking about because I'm not there, but I can understand being in the shoes of any player that is up against time. If they get the feeling you are playing any slower than normal, it's kind of hard to not get antsy about that.
Me personally, I'm super laid back. I'd probably make a bigger deal about it in a major event, but at an FNM if a game goes to time and I feel like it shouldn't have... oh well. It's an FNM. I'm more concerned about whether or not I made play mistakes and learning from them.
I can see getting upset at a 10 round event. But usually there are judges available for when games are getting into their last 5 minutes or so.
I do agree that people who only show concern for time when it is just about too late can be irritating, but unfortunately, I don't think they will be rotating out of standard. Thankfully, they are a tiny minority.
Stain the mind isn't nearly as scary as slaughter games. The control player can somewhat play around stain. There isn't much you can do about a turn 4 slaughter other than cry.
You sir are nicer than I am. I say the same thing with latent tones of hostility. Why? Because almost every control player I've played against will try to rush me when the clock becomes an issue. Sometimes it's just by projecting anxious energy at me after they pass turn, sometimes it's verbal prompting. I usually just respond in jest with something like, "I hear win conditions are in this season, having a few seems good" or something to that avail. It does sorta grind my gears though.
I can't really judge on the specific situations you are talking about because I'm not there, but I can understand being in the shoes of any player that is up against time. If they get the feeling you are playing any slower than normal, it's kind of hard to not get antsy about that.
Me personally, I'm super laid back. I'd probably make a bigger deal about it in a major event, but at an FNM if a game goes to time and I feel like it shouldn't have... oh well. It's an FNM. I'm more concerned about whether or not I made play mistakes and learning from them.
I can see getting upset at a 10 round event. But usually there are judges available for when games are getting into their last 5 minutes or so.
I think Magic needs the timers like chess players play with that would fix slow play.
I think timers at higher levels of play outside of the round time, is ridiculous. There are completely different factors determining moves in MTG than in Chess, one of the most prominent being math.
You anti-control players amuse me. All of you, and you always have. Such nonsense.
The MTGO clock is actually a huge problem for me and why I stay away from it. Some decks have an insane amount of triggers. Not only is MTGO slow as hell during each and every decision of a trigger your clock is running in between. Even when you lag your clock is still running. When the first Cube draft came I first pick slammed Sylvan Library. Worst mistake ever. The triggers are so convoluted and took close to 45 seconds each turn to resolve (and that was me going quickly). I also killed myself the first game I played with it because of how it decides how you pay life for what and you cannot go back in the middle of its resolution. In any case MTGO timer is terrible for real magic and one of the biggest reasons I stay away from MTGO.
When I first started playing magic was in 1995 when mono blue and U/W control decks where the meta. Millstone and Keljorn Outpost were you win cons. Wrath of God, Nev Disk, Armageddon, and Force of Will were your locks. Want to talk about a slow deck? Eventually I learned why play creatures when I can just wrath them all away? I became the a control player and have been since.
Fast forward to today's magic. I do not play any control decks at the GP level. Unless you are playing Andrew Sullivan speed you aren't going to get through the grind. Brad Nelson also made and article a few months back about abusing this in a GP setting as well (he isn't the first to think of this but did write about it). Plan your deck for beating the mirror match and draw the first round. You are more likely to play against other control decks in the draw bracket giving you an edge vs your opponents. You do run the risk of another draw but I don't think it is bigger risk than running into land issues multiple times in a row or facing your bad match up in the winner's bracket.
I don't mind what WotC is doing to control right now. It feels more interactive and can just lose to anything if they do not draw right. That is fine in my book. At least it gives this opening for every deck to have some kind of game vs them. Rather than your opponent being locked out of the game but not conceding. That is the worst feeling in the world on both sides. You know you have your opponent beat but they will troll you so hard because you are playing control and they hate you. Some people don't even realize they are locked out and continue playing on with that glimmer of hope something will change.
Control will be fine going forward even with slower board wipe . I predict control players will start running more creatures soon which will speed up games In doing so. I used to play a lot of counter control and when board wipe was slow I would run more walls and creatures to buy time. Having Supreme Verdict around has spoiled us a little .
I'm so glad you said this about MTGO. I've been playing Cube all week and I time out constantly. It's awful. There should be more time allowed, or at least the clock should have a slight delay and be more forgiving. Sometimes I'm hitting the F2/F4/F6 buttons so fast an onlooker might think I'm playing the old Track and Field video game.
I'm not so sure opponents are trolling you when they refuse to concede though. I make control players find their win conditions.
I'm so glad you said this about MTGO. I've been playing Cube all week and I time out constantly. It's awful. There should be more time allowed, or at least the clock should have a slight delay and be more forgiving. Sometimes I'm hitting the F2/F4/F6 buttons so fast an onlooker might think I'm playing the old Track and Field video game.
I'm not so sure opponents are trolling you when they refuse to concede though. I make control players find their win conditions.
So if it is evident that you are locked out of the game, you will not scoop until they play their win condition?
If you have an issue with a control match going to time, and you are blatantly forcing them to find a win condition when a lock is apparent, you are the one to blame for a slow game and not the control player.
If you have an issue with a control match going to time, and you are blatantly forcing them to find a win condition when a lock is apparent, you are the one to blame for a slow game and not the control player.
Yup, and I'll be to blame too when I'm cracking all those sweet sweet packs at FNM because I scored a draw instead of a loss
Thanks control player!
I don't know what to say about MTGO since v4 came out; I've just been waiting for the prize support to shift to M15 packs so I can play for money again. But with v3, I think a lot of players could play much more quickly if they just worked on their mechanics. You don't need to set a stop for every single phase with almost any deck; it should just be a minimum number of stops and then you manually set them to something like upkeep or opponent draw or beginning combat, as needed--and then turn it back off when it isn't. That, by itself, will speed up a game tremendously. And then the trigger stuff...well, v4 is different than v3, but with v3 you could anticipate the same things happening over and over again from game to game, so it was just a matter of getting that muscle memory to click accurately in the right places to set up those triggers fast. v4 will be the same way; you just figure out a system and practice it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with waiting until you see a finisher to scoop. Any time you're not on a clock, that means you are seeing more draw steps. And unless you're so far in the hole that you're drawing completely dead, you shouldn't scoop. But even then, it's reasonable to stay in a game for the sake of information; maybe you'll find out whether or not your opponent is playing a certain card, and that can help you out in a sideboard game. Honestly, I think the burden is more on the control player to find that finisher and close the game efficiently. When people don't do that, it's generally because they don't have a plan. If I'm playing a typical UWx control deck in this metagame and I have the reins, my next step is to decide whether or not my opponent can creep back in, and how to hold that back. Then, when that's locked out, I devote as many resources as I reasonably can toward finding my closer and putting the game away. I'm playing to win, after all. Not everyone has that mentality, though. Some people will be winning a game and then screw around for 15 minutes trying to ultimate a planeswalker when they could just -2 -2 their Jace and take the 1-side of each pile if it digs them to their Aetherling faster.
I personally prefer the chess clock system to the total-time-per-round system because I've been playing Blitz Chess since I was in the fourth grade. But it's a lot easier to implement that system on MTGO than it is in paper; in paper you can't just use clocks for each person's turn because of the way priority works, but you also can't just hit the clock with each priority...that would mean acknowledging each step along the way, which is just never going to result in an honest system. If you don't acknowledge every time each player has priority, then how do you pick and choose? If someone says "on your end step," is he supposed to put himself on the clock and then start thinking? Or is his opponent supposed to take the initiative and hit the clock, even though maybe his opponent doesn't actually want to stay on the end step? Offline Magic is such a verbally-driven game; this is why we don't use chess clocks (yet). Nobody's figured out how to do that properly, thus far.
Makes sense, using timers in paper magic is no go , it would speed up the game though. I remember when Turbo Fog first came out it was a hideously slow deck. If the Turbo Fog player won game one they would start to slow their pace down making it impossible to get through game two. I know there is a thing called time management, but, it does seem unfair not having enough time to play out two games. It's not your fault who you get paired up against. Would reducing the cards in a deck from 60 to 40 speed the game up?
If you have an issue with a control match going to time, and you are blatantly forcing them to find a win condition when a lock is apparent, you are the one to blame for a slow game and not the control player.
Yup, and I'll be to blame too when I'm cracking all those sweet sweet packs at FNM because I scored a draw instead of a loss
Thanks control player!
Alright, I will bite.
You are justified in playing until the end in the face of a match loss in order to obtain a draw instead. This whole thread is about forcing matches to time and how it is the control players apparent fault for it happening, but if you are waiting in lock for them to find a win condition in game 1 and sometimes game 2, you are bringing it upon yourself and it isn't the control players fault. If you are waiting game 3 because you are facing a match loss or a draw - it is STILL your fault for going to turns. I never said you were in the wrong for trying to take a draw over a match loss, but recognizing when it is you and not the control player helps from displacing blame on why a game goes to time. If time is a concern to you, then either pick it up when you lock is apparent and put yourself in a better position to win the match or stop blaming the control player for you being stubborn in a game or doing what you can in the match to obtain the est final match result.
I am not saying it will never be the control players fault for a time going long, it happens and it happens a lot. But when you are in higher levels of play a lot of things change and one of them is that the control player plays much more quickly and a lot more efficiently and generally, going to time is either because the opponent was too stubborn or they were intentionally trying to take a match draw instead of a loss and in both of those situations it is hardly the control players fault. In lower levels of play, this is also magnified because you have casual players who just don't respect the clock at all and turns will always catch them off guard because they do not play the game acknowledging that there is a time limit for the round. These reasons being compounded on top of slower control players that are less skilled, less familiar with their decks, and less efficient at recognizing the best line of play - still is a silly excuse for players to begrudge control players for playing the kind of deck they like to player.
Maybe they should enforce a minimum number of turns too, that way I can actually enjoy a game of magic with interaction instead of decks that kill me on turn 2, 3, or 4.
Seems pretty silly right?
As I previously stated, slow control decks is also kind of what you get when you have WOTC printing weaker and more narrow spells and stronger and more robust creatures while still skimping on strong and robust creatures the push the envelope in common control colors. I assure you that control games would go a hell of a lot faster if AEtherling was not the only reasonable option for a blue finisher in control. If you had Sphinx of Jwar Isle, games would go a lot faster. If you had Consecrated Sphinx, games would go a lot faster. If you had Meloku the Clouded Mirror, games would go a lot faster.
Control players are using the tools they have, and you are living in a world where they are far more narrow and control is slimming down on finisher slots to favor stability because the creatures are a lot stronger, faster, and more robust in every color except blue - leading to the inherent problem of not being able to actually close the game fast enough.
When I see players complaining about slow control games it is just silly how they hate the control player so much for it, as if it is ALL their fault and could not possibly be anything outside of their control...
Control players are using the tools they have, and you are living in a world where they are far more narrow and control is slimming down on finisher slots to favor stability because the creatures are a lot stronger, faster, and more robust in every color except blue - leading to the inherent problem of not being able to actually close the game fast enough.
This is why I am looking forward to rotation. The current control shell is miserable to play against and, from what I have heard from a number of higher level control players, not particularly enjoyable to play. Nowhere have I blamed the control player, quite to the contrary, I have stated that you should play what you want. Just don't expect me to like playing against you when one of the main ways you win is manipulating the clock to your advantage as a number of control players do right now as that is, in many ways, the only viable option given to them by the cards available.
This is why I am looking forward to rotation. The current control shell is miserable to play against and, from what I have heard from a number of higher level control players, not particularly enjoyable to play. Nowhere have I blamed the control player, quite to the contrary, I have stated that you should play what you want. Just don't expect me to like playing against you when one of the main ways you win is manipulating the clock to your advantage as a number of control players do right now as that is, in many ways, the only viable option given to them by the cards available.
I am not berating you, I am berating this mentality people have against control players as a collective. Threads like this are a prime example of the mentality people have against control players as if it is entirely their fault.
The thing I like best about rotation is that control players generally lose a chunk of their meta-specific tools and we see a resurgence of aggro and midrange.
Edit: Title originally read, "Control players are sociopaths."
It is garbage like this that I am scrutinizing - because it is misplaced anger, and grudges like this are ridiculous.
The only card control decks run to manipulate the clock to their advantage, is Elixir or Immortality and that is recognition of the fact that Sphinx's Revelation is a double edged sword and does very little to actually speed the game up. You can draw a ton of cards with it, but you still have to have AEtherling swing in a bunch of times and hope you don't have to blink him over and over. You still have to draw him in the first place. You still have to chump with Elspeth day in and day out until you can have tokens left over and ultimate her.
Control players are not manipulating the clock, and doing so is on the fringe of cheating. They simply run a card that silver bullets when their deck is not working in the most efficient way it can. Could you imagine a 6 drop that could reliably start winning the game on turn 7 instead of turn 10+, or that does not risk getting fogged by the incredible amount of removal in the format? Control players wouldn't need Elixir of Immortality they would just need to untap with the right cards like they have had to in the past and their deck could be much more finisher heavy... your matches would be much different.
I just meant it in jest. I didn't realize anyone would get upset. I got a flame warning for it, so yeah, sorry.
Good points overall.
While I do agree it's mostly WoTC's fault for printing such narrow win conditions for control, I also blame control players for sleeving up durdle decks every fnm when they know it's miserable for everyone. Maybe there is some truth in jest, although I wouldn't call them sociopaths. Jerk-faces maybe. I just look forward to those decks being mostly gone.
You are blaming someone for playing what they enjoy? That is like me raging on the Sliver player for playing Slivers. It is also FNM... why the hell do you actually care? Your $5 matters that much to you that you feel the need to slant an entire group of players because of how they play the game?
I am pointing all this out because at it's core, it is a display of irrational bias and nothing actually that justifiable. If you were griping because this is happening at your PTQ or your upper tables of the GP, there would be an actual problem worth being upset about that Control players might actually acknowledge.
The durdley Control decks in the format are not so slow that they cannot be adjusted by quicker play and you see evidence of this in higher levels of play.
Maybe this is a sign you should stop playing FNM and put more time and effort into grinding IQ's, Opens, PTQ's and GP's and using your new found off time that would otherwise be spend brooding over slow play, enjoying something rather than putting yourself in a situation to be annoyed? If you are putting yourself into lower levels of play and going to gripe about things like slow play, I have very little (none actually) sympathy for you.
As for waiting for the decks to be gone, BUG from block is no quick control deck either and what is even worse, is that you allow things like Courser of Kruphix to slow down the play significantly for UG based control decks and cards like AEtherspouts make the game a hell of a lot slower than Supreme Verdict simply because now you are forcing your opponent into a think tank deciding what to put on top and what to put on bottom. I would be pretty surprised if rotation speeds up the format in any significant amount. The card pool seems to support AI Aggro attacks or Midrange strategies that allow Control to thrive.
To put this into perspective, for anyone who plays Poker:
Playing a small limit game and playing a no limit game are two very different games despite playing the same game of poker. If you are tired of people creating faulty action and random hands - stop playing the limit game rather than hating the player who is creating the faulty action on 2 & 7 in the hole.
I'm entitled to my bias. And in your scenerio there is a smack of sociopathic behavior. If someone enjoys something that actively makes everyone around them miserable, then yeah, that person sucks. On the contrary, I could care less about the $5, but apparently the control players really really care about winning a couple packs and getting a few PW points, to the point of grinding an entire lgs. I enjoy piloting control decks, but lately, not so much. I understand that not everyone cares about the people around them, but it would be nice if they did.
You're being really aggressive dude. Your posts are seething with hostility. Again, sorry my opinions offend you so much. I'm going to step away from this convo for now. Cheers mate..
Standard:
UR Control
You sir are nicer than I am. I say the same thing with latent tones of hostility. Why? Because almost every control player I've played against will try to rush me when the clock becomes an issue. Sometimes it's just by projecting anxious energy at me after they pass turn, sometimes it's verbal prompting. I usually just respond in jest with something like, "I hear win conditions are in this season, having a few seems good" or something to that avail. It does sorta grind my gears though.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I have had more games go to time against control than anything. I usually quit and start a new game after rev 2 or 3 is played because there's no way I can win against that board state in the time alotted.
Now Mono Green on the other hand, may have a chance. I've been thinking, 4 overgrown tombs just to play stain the mind to hit Rev, Verdict, and Elspeth... Just to see the opponent fold.
I can't really judge on the specific situations you are talking about because I'm not there, but I can understand being in the shoes of any player that is up against time. If they get the feeling you are playing any slower than normal, it's kind of hard to not get antsy about that.
Me personally, I'm super laid back. I'd probably make a bigger deal about it in a major event, but at an FNM if a game goes to time and I feel like it shouldn't have... oh well. It's an FNM. I'm more concerned about whether or not I made play mistakes and learning from them.
I can see getting upset at a 10 round event. But usually there are judges available for when games are getting into their last 5 minutes or so.
Standard:
UR Control
But yes I agree it should be implemented at higher level tournaments to eliminate the novice and even intermediate durdlers.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
You anti-control players amuse me. All of you, and you always have. Such nonsense.
Magic is to arithmetic as chess is to algebraic geometry.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
When I first started playing magic was in 1995 when mono blue and U/W control decks where the meta. Millstone and Keljorn Outpost were you win cons. Wrath of God, Nev Disk, Armageddon, and Force of Will were your locks. Want to talk about a slow deck? Eventually I learned why play creatures when I can just wrath them all away? I became the a control player and have been since.
Fast forward to today's magic. I do not play any control decks at the GP level. Unless you are playing Andrew Sullivan speed you aren't going to get through the grind. Brad Nelson also made and article a few months back about abusing this in a GP setting as well (he isn't the first to think of this but did write about it). Plan your deck for beating the mirror match and draw the first round. You are more likely to play against other control decks in the draw bracket giving you an edge vs your opponents. You do run the risk of another draw but I don't think it is bigger risk than running into land issues multiple times in a row or facing your bad match up in the winner's bracket.
I don't mind what WotC is doing to control right now. It feels more interactive and can just lose to anything if they do not draw right. That is fine in my book. At least it gives this opening for every deck to have some kind of game vs them. Rather than your opponent being locked out of the game but not conceding. That is the worst feeling in the world on both sides. You know you have your opponent beat but they will troll you so hard because you are playing control and they hate you. Some people don't even realize they are locked out and continue playing on with that glimmer of hope something will change.
I'm not so sure opponents are trolling you when they refuse to concede though. I make control players find their win conditions.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
So if it is evident that you are locked out of the game, you will not scoop until they play their win condition?
If you have an issue with a control match going to time, and you are blatantly forcing them to find a win condition when a lock is apparent, you are the one to blame for a slow game and not the control player.
If I'm facing a match loss, then absolutely I make the control player find his win condition in situations that may result in a draw.
Yup, and I'll be to blame too when I'm cracking all those sweet sweet packs at FNM because I scored a draw instead of a loss
Thanks control player!
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I don't think there's anything wrong with waiting until you see a finisher to scoop. Any time you're not on a clock, that means you are seeing more draw steps. And unless you're so far in the hole that you're drawing completely dead, you shouldn't scoop. But even then, it's reasonable to stay in a game for the sake of information; maybe you'll find out whether or not your opponent is playing a certain card, and that can help you out in a sideboard game. Honestly, I think the burden is more on the control player to find that finisher and close the game efficiently. When people don't do that, it's generally because they don't have a plan. If I'm playing a typical UWx control deck in this metagame and I have the reins, my next step is to decide whether or not my opponent can creep back in, and how to hold that back. Then, when that's locked out, I devote as many resources as I reasonably can toward finding my closer and putting the game away. I'm playing to win, after all. Not everyone has that mentality, though. Some people will be winning a game and then screw around for 15 minutes trying to ultimate a planeswalker when they could just -2 -2 their Jace and take the 1-side of each pile if it digs them to their Aetherling faster.
I personally prefer the chess clock system to the total-time-per-round system because I've been playing Blitz Chess since I was in the fourth grade. But it's a lot easier to implement that system on MTGO than it is in paper; in paper you can't just use clocks for each person's turn because of the way priority works, but you also can't just hit the clock with each priority...that would mean acknowledging each step along the way, which is just never going to result in an honest system. If you don't acknowledge every time each player has priority, then how do you pick and choose? If someone says "on your end step," is he supposed to put himself on the clock and then start thinking? Or is his opponent supposed to take the initiative and hit the clock, even though maybe his opponent doesn't actually want to stay on the end step? Offline Magic is such a verbally-driven game; this is why we don't use chess clocks (yet). Nobody's figured out how to do that properly, thus far.
Alright, I will bite.
You are justified in playing until the end in the face of a match loss in order to obtain a draw instead. This whole thread is about forcing matches to time and how it is the control players apparent fault for it happening, but if you are waiting in lock for them to find a win condition in game 1 and sometimes game 2, you are bringing it upon yourself and it isn't the control players fault. If you are waiting game 3 because you are facing a match loss or a draw - it is STILL your fault for going to turns. I never said you were in the wrong for trying to take a draw over a match loss, but recognizing when it is you and not the control player helps from displacing blame on why a game goes to time. If time is a concern to you, then either pick it up when you lock is apparent and put yourself in a better position to win the match or stop blaming the control player for you being stubborn in a game or doing what you can in the match to obtain the est final match result.
I am not saying it will never be the control players fault for a time going long, it happens and it happens a lot. But when you are in higher levels of play a lot of things change and one of them is that the control player plays much more quickly and a lot more efficiently and generally, going to time is either because the opponent was too stubborn or they were intentionally trying to take a match draw instead of a loss and in both of those situations it is hardly the control players fault. In lower levels of play, this is also magnified because you have casual players who just don't respect the clock at all and turns will always catch them off guard because they do not play the game acknowledging that there is a time limit for the round. These reasons being compounded on top of slower control players that are less skilled, less familiar with their decks, and less efficient at recognizing the best line of play - still is a silly excuse for players to begrudge control players for playing the kind of deck they like to player.
Maybe they should enforce a minimum number of turns too, that way I can actually enjoy a game of magic with interaction instead of decks that kill me on turn 2, 3, or 4.
Seems pretty silly right?
As I previously stated, slow control decks is also kind of what you get when you have WOTC printing weaker and more narrow spells and stronger and more robust creatures while still skimping on strong and robust creatures the push the envelope in common control colors. I assure you that control games would go a hell of a lot faster if AEtherling was not the only reasonable option for a blue finisher in control. If you had Sphinx of Jwar Isle, games would go a lot faster. If you had Consecrated Sphinx, games would go a lot faster. If you had Meloku the Clouded Mirror, games would go a lot faster.
Control players are using the tools they have, and you are living in a world where they are far more narrow and control is slimming down on finisher slots to favor stability because the creatures are a lot stronger, faster, and more robust in every color except blue - leading to the inherent problem of not being able to actually close the game fast enough.
When I see players complaining about slow control games it is just silly how they hate the control player so much for it, as if it is ALL their fault and could not possibly be anything outside of their control...
This is why I am looking forward to rotation. The current control shell is miserable to play against and, from what I have heard from a number of higher level control players, not particularly enjoyable to play. Nowhere have I blamed the control player, quite to the contrary, I have stated that you should play what you want. Just don't expect me to like playing against you when one of the main ways you win is manipulating the clock to your advantage as a number of control players do right now as that is, in many ways, the only viable option given to them by the cards available.
I am not berating you, I am berating this mentality people have against control players as a collective. Threads like this are a prime example of the mentality people have against control players as if it is entirely their fault.
It is garbage like this that I am scrutinizing - because it is misplaced anger, and grudges like this are ridiculous.
The only card control decks run to manipulate the clock to their advantage, is Elixir or Immortality and that is recognition of the fact that Sphinx's Revelation is a double edged sword and does very little to actually speed the game up. You can draw a ton of cards with it, but you still have to have AEtherling swing in a bunch of times and hope you don't have to blink him over and over. You still have to draw him in the first place. You still have to chump with Elspeth day in and day out until you can have tokens left over and ultimate her.
Control players are not manipulating the clock, and doing so is on the fringe of cheating. They simply run a card that silver bullets when their deck is not working in the most efficient way it can. Could you imagine a 6 drop that could reliably start winning the game on turn 7 instead of turn 10+, or that does not risk getting fogged by the incredible amount of removal in the format? Control players wouldn't need Elixir of Immortality they would just need to untap with the right cards like they have had to in the past and their deck could be much more finisher heavy... your matches would be much different.
Good points overall.
While I do agree it's mostly WoTC's fault for printing such narrow win conditions for control, I also blame control players for sleeving up durdle decks every fnm when they know it's miserable for everyone. Maybe there is some truth in jest, although I wouldn't call them sociopaths. Jerk-faces maybe. I just look forward to those decks being mostly gone.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
You are blaming someone for playing what they enjoy? That is like me raging on the Sliver player for playing Slivers. It is also FNM... why the hell do you actually care? Your $5 matters that much to you that you feel the need to slant an entire group of players because of how they play the game?
I am pointing all this out because at it's core, it is a display of irrational bias and nothing actually that justifiable. If you were griping because this is happening at your PTQ or your upper tables of the GP, there would be an actual problem worth being upset about that Control players might actually acknowledge.
The durdley Control decks in the format are not so slow that they cannot be adjusted by quicker play and you see evidence of this in higher levels of play.
Maybe this is a sign you should stop playing FNM and put more time and effort into grinding IQ's, Opens, PTQ's and GP's and using your new found off time that would otherwise be spend brooding over slow play, enjoying something rather than putting yourself in a situation to be annoyed? If you are putting yourself into lower levels of play and going to gripe about things like slow play, I have very little (none actually) sympathy for you.
As for waiting for the decks to be gone, BUG from block is no quick control deck either and what is even worse, is that you allow things like Courser of Kruphix to slow down the play significantly for UG based control decks and cards like AEtherspouts make the game a hell of a lot slower than Supreme Verdict simply because now you are forcing your opponent into a think tank deciding what to put on top and what to put on bottom. I would be pretty surprised if rotation speeds up the format in any significant amount. The card pool seems to support AI Aggro attacks or Midrange strategies that allow Control to thrive.
To put this into perspective, for anyone who plays Poker:
Playing a small limit game and playing a no limit game are two very different games despite playing the same game of poker. If you are tired of people creating faulty action and random hands - stop playing the limit game rather than hating the player who is creating the faulty action on 2 & 7 in the hole.
You're being really aggressive dude. Your posts are seething with hostility. Again, sorry my opinions offend you so much. I'm going to step away from this convo for now. Cheers mate..
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW