I ran a black/white midrange deck last night and for the life of me I could not get a single win against the slew of aggro decks I faced. I have 10 removal spells main and can bring in 5 more after sideboard and I just can't stop an aggro assult. I even have Pharika's Cure in my sideboard and it was never enough. Even the one game I played 6 kill spells in a row and still lost. After that game I guess I really don't understand how aggro is beatable. And the crazy thing is I started my return to magic with mono black aggro and could never even place, but now that deck is the most consistent at our shop placing 3rd or higher in the past 4 tournaments in a row. And awhile I was playing big red/green which is like a faster monsters deck and in theory should dominate aggro decks but I would still lose.
I must be doing something fundamentally wrong to lose with a midrange deck with lifegain cards such as whip, obzedat, and archangel mainboard and then 15 kill spells after board. Can anyone tell me how they successfully navigated aggro matchups?
Like I played against mono blue devotion and he got stuck on 3 lands and still won between a highly evolved cloudfin raptor, judges familiar making spot removal awful, and mutavault being unkillable. Way too many games I just ate it to mutavault.
Against mono black I literally cast 6 kill spells in a row and still lost. One game his mutavault must have hit me for 8 and I couldn't use ultimate price or banishing light to kill it.
Desecration Demon lost me soooo many games. Either aggro kept him tapped down the entire game or mono black just kept drawing cards and making pack rats and literally kept 2 tapped down.
I have archangel mainboard because I don't own blood baron and she would just die instantly every game between mortars, ultimate price, and rapid hybridization.
I have pharikas cure sideboarded and I just cannot beat these aggro decks. Any help would be appreciated, it's just a run of the mill black/white midrange deck.
A decklist would really help here. Also are you casting removal on your turn or theirs? How is your mana base? What besides removal do you side in vs aggro?
I don't think you can post decklists here, but one would definitely help. Obviously lifegain can help you stabilize, but black is really missing good sweepers and mass removal right now. I haven't played as much as I used to recently, but I hear cards like bile blight and drown in sorrow are good against some of the aggro decks. And if you're playing BW, shouldn't you have cards like whip of erebos or gray merchant or something that would help you gain more life to stabilize?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
I don't think you can post decklists here, but one would definitely help.
Decklists aren't permitted in the general forum? Make one in the Standard Deck Creation sub-forum then - I'm sure there are a lot of people who could help out once they see it.
Sorry but we're not suppose to post decklists here. The decklist is pretty derivative from the successful b/w midrange decks at standard opens. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68866
Almost identical to this. Cut a read the bones and an elspeth for two blood barons. And cut lifebane for a fourth devour flesh then it's an identical deck.
Against aggro decks I bring in two pharika's cure like I said, and either 2 doom blades or 2 dark betrayals depending on the color I'm facing. Usually cut elspeth who is too slow, and either cut a couple underworld connections or lifebane zombies depending on the color of the matchup.
I already mentioned that tournament I had obzedat, whip, and archangel mainboard. I just switched the archangels to blood barons.
I've thought of switching the pharikas cures to drown in sorrows, maybe putting the banishing lights in the sideboard and adding two bile blight. Pharika's cure is amazing against mutavault which drown in sorrow can't hit, but the bile blights compensate for that.
The first incantations of this deck had 2 brimaz and a fiendslayer in the 75 but the color cost is way too difficult.
I'm not looking for dramatic deck changes, I trust these guys in the top 8 to have tested far more than I did, I'm just looking for strategic advice approaching aggro matchups.
It seems like you're well equipped to face aggro and win pretty consistently.
I'm sorry to say that you're either playing ineffectively or just very unlucky. Do you feel like you have the right cards/answers to the board even though you lose?
Well like the mono black aggro matchup first game I lost to a mutavault I couldn't answer since neither ultimate price nor banishing light can target it. At the end was just 4 turns of him playing nothing and attacking with mutavault. Game 2 I thought I had in the bag with 3 kill spells in my opening hand and drawing into 3 more. He just had more creatures than I had answers.
Like on paper it seems like this deck really handles creature matchups but in my experience mutavaults+multiple 2 power 1 drops seems difficult to over come without something that generates card advantage like drown in sorrow.
By the way, if you're running white/black I prefer Alms Beast over Desecration Demon pretty much for the reason you didn't like DD. It's just as big (a little easier to cast), it doesn't have flying but it just stalls the ground and is also good against control.
SB Drown in Sorrow. And it looks like your deck has a lot of life payment via shocklands, thoughtseizes, and Underworld Connections. You might just need more practice against aggro decks. Play against an aggro deck for several games. Your deck is just over a week old, if you net-decked it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
It might seem bold but i switched the lifebane zombies to the sideboard because I was already siding him out against most aggro decks, and I felt like a 3 mana creature that often just traded with one or two drops wasn't a strong enough plan, or he simply ate a kill spell and they kept attacking.
I did seriously consider doing a 2/2 split of alms beast and desecration demon. Does anyone have experience with alms beast? The lifegain seems very inconsequential with my wins going long. I'm just trying to figure out how often the flying is relevant. Against mono blue-devotion they have no trouble keeping demon tapped, but I also like them sacrificing their creatures making my kill spell suite much more potent. But, it seems like alms beast might give me slightly more control over which creature dies since they have ground cards like frostborn weird and tidebinder mage which can help the strategy of keeping their devotion low. What has been anyone's experience with alms beast?
I did get to play against my friend's red aggro deck that won the las vegas open. Went 7-3-0 against him, half sideboard games, half non sideboard games. Toil // Trouble is devastating against this deck often hitting for 5-7 damage. My general strategy against aggro is to stay off the board and just answer their ready to attack creatures with kill spells until I can drop demon, obzedat, or blood baron. I can't commit to the board in anticipation of toil // trouble because he'll just slam in with ash zealot and phoenix. I mean it's a good record but two of my wins i stabilized at 1 and 2 life.
As an Orzhov Midrange player, what I will say is that you should keep in mind that the white splash is the slowest of all of the black midrange decks, and probably the most vulnerable to aggro. Gary is generally much better against aggro because you get bang for buck the turn he comes down while Obzedat can't block and Elspeth is a hefty 6 drop. Also by running so many copies of Banishing Light, we sacrifice the efficiency of cards like Hero's Downfall and two mana removal spells for the flexibility of removing anything. Not running Blood Baron also means you can't just drop him on turn 5 to straight up stonewall any white or black based aggro deck. Ben Friedman's build was definitely targeted more to beat the control and midrange decks he expected to see at the SCG Invitational than aggro.
Even though, BW is definitely the weakest to aggro, it's not a terrible matchup or even unfavorable(aside from Mono U, that's a tough one). You may just be making misplays, sideboarding incorrectly, or getting plain unlucky. I can't say I've ever sided out Lifebane Zombies against aggro decks because they block just fine. If you're on the draw especially, you'd rather be siding out Pack Rats because they can't keep pace when you're not going first. You want to be stacking your deck with efficient removal from your sideboard and taking out things that just time walk you (Underworld, Read the Bones). Demon is super powerful against most aggro decks because if you can keep the board somewhat clear by turn 4, they generally can't beat it. Consider running Drown in Sorrow in your sideboard if you have an aggro heavy meta. One thing I was doing a lot when playing against Mono U was using my removal inefficiently and trying to keep the board completely clear to avoid taking early hits. I've found much more success by using my life total as a resource to make sure that if I blow something up, it's something that will be impactful on the game.
I don't see the point of lifebane zombie in the aggro matchup, he just seems terribly inefficient and never even takes anything from their hand. 1 toughness for 3 mana is really bad as far as stabilizing the board and what I typically have seen is that if I play him virtually any kill spell works against him so instead of leaving dead cards in their hand they get to consume my turn my answering lifebane and punching through on damage
I don't see the point of lifebane zombie in the aggro matchup, he just seems terribly inefficient and never even takes anything from their hand. 1 toughness for 3 mana is really bad as far as stabilizing the board and what I typically have seen is that if I play him virtually any kill spell works against him so instead of leaving dead cards in their hand they get to consume my turn my answering lifebane and punching through on damage
Lifebane Zombie is a meta call. If your local meta is full of Jund Monsters and other Courser/Caryatid decks, then Lifebane Zombie basically guarantees a 2-for-1. Take my LGS for instance. Because of the prevalence of Jund Monsters and other Courser/Caryatid decks, all of the Mono-black and other Thoughtseize/Pack Rat decks have been mainboarding Lifebane Zombie. It got so prevalent that I had to move my playset of Boros Reckoner to the sideboard to avoid taking collateral damage (I play R/W Burn).
Went to a tournament tonight, faced 1 aggro deck while the tournament before that at the same shop was like 45% aggro decks. Have learned you can't sideboard for local play like you can for big tournaments since local level players switch strategies so readily.
Anyway, felt much stronger without the lifebane zombies mainboard. Allowed me to play a more controlling metagame.
The aggro matchup was just pathetic. Dryad militant into voice of resurgence into fabled hero into ghor clan+selesnya charm was a quick game. Voice makes it impossible to play intelligently. Second game had about 16 kill spells and saw none of them, blown out by more tricks.
I went 2-2-0, lost to aggro and enchantress (ugh). Enchantress is a rough matchup. Bunch of small threats you don't want to kill combined with a few choice kill spells really shuts down my strategy. If you try to just kill everything it leaves you vulnerable to late turn planeswalkers and archangels. If you try to stabilize the board with bulky creatures they eat a kill spell and put you on the backfoot. I swear there's just something important I'm missing approaching this game. Coinsmith was shockingly good against me. Gave him just enough life to not die to my unblockable blood baron.
The wins were against BUG midrange and Jund Monsters. I just annihilated jund monsters. We both mulled to 5, I drew enough lands straight into a blood baron. I didn't even know what to sideboard it was such a shutout so I didn't and still just controlled the game.
BUG midrange was a hoot. Alms Beast tore down the walls game 1 crushing coursers and caryatids in her wake. Game 2 I made a crucial misplay. was stuck on 4 lands because i fed one to pack rat and couldn't turn the corner of making packrats and firing kill spells with a connections dying in my hand as I was under too much pressure. Game 3 Pack Rats won the day.
I'm currently torn on lifebane zombie. Every game tonight she had targets. Maybe lifebane zombie is the key to turning the corner with this deck when you steal a dangerous creature and create some board presence. It seems like on the play this deck runs a lot hotter. One game I had a blowout play. I deicided his banishing light, returning my underworld connections, drew off connections a lifebane zombie, played the land in my hand, played zombie, exiling his archangel.
I'm going to try lifebane zombies mainboard. I'm also keeping the 2-2 split of alms beast and desecration demon. There was never a time when I needed the alms beast to be desecration demon and a lot of times when Alms Beast was a vicious blocker. I remember adrian sullivan talked about cards that had extremely similar effects put in the same deck, and I like how you can't really prepare for demon when 2 of them are alms beast. Desecration demon made ultimate price viable against my deck while alms beast makes it terrible.
On the play I found letting pack rat eat removal really helps to setup my 4 and 5 drops.
If your meta is has a lot of Courser / Carytaid decks, then definitely mainboard Lifebane Zombie. Also, because your deck has trouble dealing with a bunch of small threats, I would suggest including Bile Blight and/or Drown in Sorrow in your 75.
Well another tournament and no success whatsoever. I seem to be the worst player at the store who isn't under 13 while last season I was consistently making top 5 places.
First game was against a nothing deck. He was young, had a bunch of cards that weren't standard legal, nothing to note here, would have been extremely difficult to lose this game.
Having trouble remembering the order of the matches. I faced a boss sligh deck, a naya tokens deck, a black devotion deck, and u/w control.
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong anymore. It doesn't seem I can beat any sound strategy.
Against naya tokens I lost the first game to purphoros triggers+courser keeping the top of his deck fresh, game 2 drew 3 pack rats and ran him over, game 3 lost to elspeth. My deck has powerful spells but it seems like I only ever win with pack rat.
Boss sligh just seems unfavorable. His creatures cost less than my kill spells and has a high density of them. First game was just too fast, no kill spells. Game 2 let a pack rat trade with firedrinker satyr, and had more kill spells to keep the board clean before i landed blood baron into obzedat. Game 3 was terribly frustrating. Had drown in sorrow in my opening hand and mana to cast it and drew into a second one.....so of course he draws two prophetic flamespeakers and I have no other kill spells.
U/W control went miserably, every single play was answered first game, never saw thoughtseize to setup any play. Game 2 brought in 2 duress, 2 sin collector, and erebos. Made a single pack rat token and attacked for 4, goading him to cast supreme verdict which he did, allowing me to cast obzedat uncontested, obzedat triggered several times that game and was still triggering when i lost. He just cast back to back revelations to stay alive, then landed elspeth and lifelinked a 9 point swing off azorius charm and both games I drew 1 hand disruption spell even though I had 8 after sideboard.
Against mono black devotion, was the final round and he scooped out of boredom.
I get this really strong feeling that this deck isn't remotely competitive without 4 mutavaults. Their versatility in every single matchup is a huge boon that I cannot afford. Like this is a tier 1 deck that has been thoroughly tested, I have plenty of experience with it, I've discussed strategy and lines of play with successful pilots of it, I sideboard correctly, the only thing truly missing is 4 mutavaults. I have lost to a lot of mutavaults in practice, either by a crucial block, or as an unanswerable threat.
Mainboard 4 Hero's Downfall. Never a dead card, and would have solved the Elspeth problem. Make sure you have 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize in your 75 for U/W Control. Mainboard 4 Garys if you haven't already. And as for Boss Sligh, if you are caught unexpected by it, then it definitely has the advantage. But if you bring hate, you can tear it apart. Include a few Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow in your 75 if you are expecting Boss Sligh to stick around at your LGS.
Nyx-Fleece Ram works really hard out of sideboard in my own testing. Blood Baron of Vizkopa is super, super solid. Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight are really good too. Mutavault is so good, even at just matching up against their vaults, never leave home without them. Sometimes aggro is unbeatable if they get "that draw," and sometimes it just depends on who plays first, but I think the best way to deal with aggro is stall with the rams, removal spells and sweepers until you can land a big lifelinker and ride it to victory. Elspeth helps too if you can get a couple of her in you deck.
hero's downfall is very bad in the aggro matchup because they can have 3 or more creatures on board before you can even cast it. All these other cards you guys are telling me to use I use.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I must be doing something fundamentally wrong to lose with a midrange deck with lifegain cards such as whip, obzedat, and archangel mainboard and then 15 kill spells after board. Can anyone tell me how they successfully navigated aggro matchups?
Like I played against mono blue devotion and he got stuck on 3 lands and still won between a highly evolved cloudfin raptor, judges familiar making spot removal awful, and mutavault being unkillable. Way too many games I just ate it to mutavault.
Against mono black I literally cast 6 kill spells in a row and still lost. One game his mutavault must have hit me for 8 and I couldn't use ultimate price or banishing light to kill it.
Desecration Demon lost me soooo many games. Either aggro kept him tapped down the entire game or mono black just kept drawing cards and making pack rats and literally kept 2 tapped down.
I have archangel mainboard because I don't own blood baron and she would just die instantly every game between mortars, ultimate price, and rapid hybridization.
I have pharikas cure sideboarded and I just cannot beat these aggro decks. Any help would be appreciated, it's just a run of the mill black/white midrange deck.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
Decklists aren't permitted in the general forum? Make one in the Standard Deck Creation sub-forum then - I'm sure there are a lot of people who could help out once they see it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68866
Almost identical to this. Cut a read the bones and an elspeth for two blood barons. And cut lifebane for a fourth devour flesh then it's an identical deck.
Against aggro decks I bring in two pharika's cure like I said, and either 2 doom blades or 2 dark betrayals depending on the color I'm facing. Usually cut elspeth who is too slow, and either cut a couple underworld connections or lifebane zombies depending on the color of the matchup.
I already mentioned that tournament I had obzedat, whip, and archangel mainboard. I just switched the archangels to blood barons.
I've thought of switching the pharikas cures to drown in sorrows, maybe putting the banishing lights in the sideboard and adding two bile blight. Pharika's cure is amazing against mutavault which drown in sorrow can't hit, but the bile blights compensate for that.
The first incantations of this deck had 2 brimaz and a fiendslayer in the 75 but the color cost is way too difficult.
I'm not looking for dramatic deck changes, I trust these guys in the top 8 to have tested far more than I did, I'm just looking for strategic advice approaching aggro matchups.
I'm sorry to say that you're either playing ineffectively or just very unlucky. Do you feel like you have the right cards/answers to the board even though you lose?
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Like on paper it seems like this deck really handles creature matchups but in my experience mutavaults+multiple 2 power 1 drops seems difficult to over come without something that generates card advantage like drown in sorrow.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
I did seriously consider doing a 2/2 split of alms beast and desecration demon. Does anyone have experience with alms beast? The lifegain seems very inconsequential with my wins going long. I'm just trying to figure out how often the flying is relevant. Against mono blue-devotion they have no trouble keeping demon tapped, but I also like them sacrificing their creatures making my kill spell suite much more potent. But, it seems like alms beast might give me slightly more control over which creature dies since they have ground cards like frostborn weird and tidebinder mage which can help the strategy of keeping their devotion low. What has been anyone's experience with alms beast?
I did get to play against my friend's red aggro deck that won the las vegas open. Went 7-3-0 against him, half sideboard games, half non sideboard games. Toil // Trouble is devastating against this deck often hitting for 5-7 damage. My general strategy against aggro is to stay off the board and just answer their ready to attack creatures with kill spells until I can drop demon, obzedat, or blood baron. I can't commit to the board in anticipation of toil // trouble because he'll just slam in with ash zealot and phoenix. I mean it's a good record but two of my wins i stabilized at 1 and 2 life.
Even though, BW is definitely the weakest to aggro, it's not a terrible matchup or even unfavorable(aside from Mono U, that's a tough one). You may just be making misplays, sideboarding incorrectly, or getting plain unlucky. I can't say I've ever sided out Lifebane Zombies against aggro decks because they block just fine. If you're on the draw especially, you'd rather be siding out Pack Rats because they can't keep pace when you're not going first. You want to be stacking your deck with efficient removal from your sideboard and taking out things that just time walk you (Underworld, Read the Bones). Demon is super powerful against most aggro decks because if you can keep the board somewhat clear by turn 4, they generally can't beat it. Consider running Drown in Sorrow in your sideboard if you have an aggro heavy meta. One thing I was doing a lot when playing against Mono U was using my removal inefficiently and trying to keep the board completely clear to avoid taking early hits. I've found much more success by using my life total as a resource to make sure that if I blow something up, it's something that will be impactful on the game.
Lifebane Zombie is a meta call. If your local meta is full of Jund Monsters and other Courser/Caryatid decks, then Lifebane Zombie basically guarantees a 2-for-1. Take my LGS for instance. Because of the prevalence of Jund Monsters and other Courser/Caryatid decks, all of the Mono-black and other Thoughtseize/Pack Rat decks have been mainboarding Lifebane Zombie. It got so prevalent that I had to move my playset of Boros Reckoner to the sideboard to avoid taking collateral damage (I play R/W Burn).
Anyway, felt much stronger without the lifebane zombies mainboard. Allowed me to play a more controlling metagame.
The aggro matchup was just pathetic. Dryad militant into voice of resurgence into fabled hero into ghor clan+selesnya charm was a quick game. Voice makes it impossible to play intelligently. Second game had about 16 kill spells and saw none of them, blown out by more tricks.
I went 2-2-0, lost to aggro and enchantress (ugh). Enchantress is a rough matchup. Bunch of small threats you don't want to kill combined with a few choice kill spells really shuts down my strategy. If you try to just kill everything it leaves you vulnerable to late turn planeswalkers and archangels. If you try to stabilize the board with bulky creatures they eat a kill spell and put you on the backfoot. I swear there's just something important I'm missing approaching this game. Coinsmith was shockingly good against me. Gave him just enough life to not die to my unblockable blood baron.
The wins were against BUG midrange and Jund Monsters. I just annihilated jund monsters. We both mulled to 5, I drew enough lands straight into a blood baron. I didn't even know what to sideboard it was such a shutout so I didn't and still just controlled the game.
BUG midrange was a hoot. Alms Beast tore down the walls game 1 crushing coursers and caryatids in her wake. Game 2 I made a crucial misplay. was stuck on 4 lands because i fed one to pack rat and couldn't turn the corner of making packrats and firing kill spells with a connections dying in my hand as I was under too much pressure. Game 3 Pack Rats won the day.
I'm currently torn on lifebane zombie. Every game tonight she had targets. Maybe lifebane zombie is the key to turning the corner with this deck when you steal a dangerous creature and create some board presence. It seems like on the play this deck runs a lot hotter. One game I had a blowout play. I deicided his banishing light, returning my underworld connections, drew off connections a lifebane zombie, played the land in my hand, played zombie, exiling his archangel.
I'm going to try lifebane zombies mainboard. I'm also keeping the 2-2 split of alms beast and desecration demon. There was never a time when I needed the alms beast to be desecration demon and a lot of times when Alms Beast was a vicious blocker. I remember adrian sullivan talked about cards that had extremely similar effects put in the same deck, and I like how you can't really prepare for demon when 2 of them are alms beast. Desecration demon made ultimate price viable against my deck while alms beast makes it terrible.
On the play I found letting pack rat eat removal really helps to setup my 4 and 5 drops.
First game was against a nothing deck. He was young, had a bunch of cards that weren't standard legal, nothing to note here, would have been extremely difficult to lose this game.
Having trouble remembering the order of the matches. I faced a boss sligh deck, a naya tokens deck, a black devotion deck, and u/w control.
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong anymore. It doesn't seem I can beat any sound strategy.
Against naya tokens I lost the first game to purphoros triggers+courser keeping the top of his deck fresh, game 2 drew 3 pack rats and ran him over, game 3 lost to elspeth. My deck has powerful spells but it seems like I only ever win with pack rat.
Boss sligh just seems unfavorable. His creatures cost less than my kill spells and has a high density of them. First game was just too fast, no kill spells. Game 2 let a pack rat trade with firedrinker satyr, and had more kill spells to keep the board clean before i landed blood baron into obzedat. Game 3 was terribly frustrating. Had drown in sorrow in my opening hand and mana to cast it and drew into a second one.....so of course he draws two prophetic flamespeakers and I have no other kill spells.
U/W control went miserably, every single play was answered first game, never saw thoughtseize to setup any play. Game 2 brought in 2 duress, 2 sin collector, and erebos. Made a single pack rat token and attacked for 4, goading him to cast supreme verdict which he did, allowing me to cast obzedat uncontested, obzedat triggered several times that game and was still triggering when i lost. He just cast back to back revelations to stay alive, then landed elspeth and lifelinked a 9 point swing off azorius charm and both games I drew 1 hand disruption spell even though I had 8 after sideboard.
Against mono black devotion, was the final round and he scooped out of boredom.
I get this really strong feeling that this deck isn't remotely competitive without 4 mutavaults. Their versatility in every single matchup is a huge boon that I cannot afford. Like this is a tier 1 deck that has been thoroughly tested, I have plenty of experience with it, I've discussed strategy and lines of play with successful pilots of it, I sideboard correctly, the only thing truly missing is 4 mutavaults. I have lost to a lot of mutavaults in practice, either by a crucial block, or as an unanswerable threat.