The metagame isn't that bad! We just went through two incredibly powerful Standard seasons, one with an oppressively dominate deck (Delver) and the other with a card that popped up in pretty much every deck (Thragtusk) that did well. And while this season isn't all that, people overexaggerate how bad it is. The OP is just another example of this.
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"Until you have lived as a statue, do not talk to me of pigeons."
—Karn, silver golem
The metagame isn't that bad! We just went through two incredibly powerful Standard seasons, one with an oppressively dominate deck (Delver) and the other with a card that popped up in pretty much every deck (Thragtusk) that did well. And while this season isn't all that, people overexaggerate how bad it is. The OP is just another example of this.
I never said the meta is bad. It is certainly better than previous standard in a lot of ways. The reason thragtusk never saw a ban is that everyone could play it and there were tons of ways to generate card advantage through all of the enter the battlefield effects. Lifebane zombie was designed to remove or kill thragtusk (3 power). But now that thragtusk is gone, all incentivese to play green are also gone. My only suggestion is that by removing a critical hate card (lifebane zombie), standard would be a lot more diverse. Black would still probably dominate, but it might make some other decks viable (specifically R/G monsters, G/W aggro or midrage, Mono Green, and G/R/U).
I'm a proponent of small low risk changes to allow the metagame to expand without affecting it directly. This is why I'm in favor of banning a sideboard or hate card like lifebane zombie as opposed to a critical card like mutavault or thoughtseize. Part of this happens naturally through new cards (Deicide), but lifebane zombie is by far and away the strongest hate card (just playing it gives you an advantage) and the evasion makes it a huge clock that green decks can't even deal with.
The metagame isn't that bad! We just went through two incredibly powerful Standard seasons, one with an oppressively dominate deck (Delver) and the other with a card that popped up in pretty much every deck (Thragtusk) that did well. And while this season isn't all that, people overexaggerate how bad it is. The OP is just another example of this.
I never said the meta is bad. It is certainly better than previous standard in a lot of ways. The reason thragtusk never saw a ban is that everyone could play it and there were tons of ways to generate card advantage through all of the enter the battlefield effects. Lifebane zombie was designed to remove or kill thragtusk (3 power). But now that thragtusk is gone, all incentivese to play green are also gone. My only suggestion is that by removing a critical hate card (lifebane zombie), standard would be a lot more diverse. Black would still probably dominate, but it might make some other decks viable (specifically R/G monsters, G/W aggro or midrage, Mono Green, and G/R/U).
I'm a proponent of small low risk changes to allow the metagame to expand without affecting it directly. This is why I'm in favor of banning a sideboard or hate card like lifebane zombie as opposed to a critical card like mutavault or thoughtseize. Part of this happens naturally through new cards (Deicide), but lifebane zombie is by far and away the strongest hate card (just playing it gives you an advantage) and the evasion makes it a huge clock that green decks can't even deal with.
Well, if the meta isn't bad, then there isn't any reason to ban anything. Just to bring up an underrepresented archetype is not sufficient enough reason. They already design standard cards favoring certain archetypes, so if it doesn't **** up the meta the way they do it, then they aren't going to ban something just to favor something else.
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"Until you have lived as a statue, do not talk to me of pigeons."
—Karn, silver golem
tl;dr: Lifebane Zombie is a good card. Does it make green unplayable? no. Does it deserve a ban? no.
I mean it actually kind of does make Green unplayable, in tandem with Doom Blade and Pack Rat and so on. Unplayable in the sense that you won't win too many games of Magic against it with a deck of green/white creatures (that isn't too fast for its own good). Just because people are stubborn enough to sleeve up Domri Rade doesn't mean they are correct in doing so.
Regardless Magic isn't a Blizzard game, we can't just cry to Blizz to nerf *****. Gotta ride it out.
With Standard, the usual idea is, "leave it alone, it will rotate in a year or so anyway."
This is the most relevant thing to keep in mind. WotC hates banning cards in Standard, and would rather let the format languish in staleness or unplayability for months rather than fix it because, if you just wait long enough, it might fix itself when rotation happens or when a new set comes out. That's why it took so long to ban components in Caw and Affinity, along with Skullclamp. I suspect that the same thing will happen here.
On the other hand, if they do ban something, I'm thinking it'll be Lifebane Zombie. The reason is that this banning unlocks Selesnya as a tier one option while not harming Black Devotion at all. They don't need Lifebane in the main and they have other options like Doom Blade to play in the board, which as still powerful but not disgustingly oppressive like the zombie is. Basically banning Lifebane Zombie is "all upside".
Another possible ban target is Mutavault, because when three color goodstuff decks still try to jam a colorless land you know that the format is warped. It reminds me of when the original 12-Post, a ramp deck based on lands and Tooth & Nail, decided to gut its mana engine and rely on elves instead just to take advantage of Skullclamp.
Still, the most likely result is that nothing gets banned. This isn't Modern, where bans are meant to create the best format possible. In Standard bans are only meant to prevent the worst format possible.
A sideboard card does not ever deserve a ban. To deserve a ban a card needs to be a 4 of centerpiece of a degenerate, oppressive deck. Monoblack may be dominant right now but it is not so dominant that it totally discourages the play of other decks. Various MonoU decks do well, along with Jund/GR monsters and UW/Esper control and Bant control. And in those mono black decks Lifebane Zombie does not even show up in the main board all the time, often times pushed to the sideboard in favor of Nightveil Specter. Something relegated to 3-4 slots of the sideboard of a single deck that does not completely own the format is far from banworthy whether it renders a certain archetype impotent or not.
Could see mutavault being banned but then control might become too oppressive. Could see thoughtseize being banned because it's the most powerful one drop in the game in the most powerful deck currently. This card was $70 before reprints fyi.
Lifebane zombie is so crappy outside of matchups against decks with green creatures. It's not oppressive, and if you check open tournament results green decks are doing fine despite the prevalence of this card. Past 5 opens 25% of the decks played green mana and spells at the very least, sometimes it was over 40% of the decks.
I think the problem is how favorable the mono black matchup is against every single deck. I think a thoughtseize ban would definitely even things up, but black isn't at the point it is actually oppressive.
I dont know if any of you were around when Skullclamp got banned. The reasoning was that archetypes were being created solely with the gameplan of "play a bunch of dorks, play Skullclamp, generate card advantage". And it got to the point where every deck played the card and it prevented other archetypes from being possible. It was just Dorks + Skullclamp (Goblins, Affinity, Elf and Nail). And then a few months later, Arcbound Ravager and Disciple of the Vault getting banned. It was the same thing... that Affinity deck was so consistent at winning fast in Standard. And then years later Jace and Stoneforge Mystic get the axe.
In all three of those cases those archetypes/decks were big (I don't have exact numbers, but over 50% for sure, maybe as much as 75% of the metagame). But the death blow came when you saw people stop going to these major tournaments. In the past 5 or so years, we've been able to really quantify the general audiences interest in a format by how many people show up to events now that the game is becoming more and more main stream. There weren't weekly tournaments that drew 100s of players until more recently, so they've been able to accurately gauge interest in the Standard format by looking to see if the numbers take a dip. Until you see that happen, we won't see a card get banned. People can complain that they don't like the environment, and they'll certainly listen, but they aren't banning cards as long as people keep showing up to these big tournaments every week.
Thoughtseize is the card with the biggest impact on the Standard. It can be hard to observe since we're used to the current format, but Thoughtseize severely hinders the viability of any deck that tries to be synergistic. That's why the only two synergistic decks are either aggro (monoblue devotion) or graveyard-based (dredge,) since those don't care as much about Thoughtseize.
But as much as I hate the card, it's not getting banned anytime soon, and I don't think it should (though I do think it should have been printed in M14 so that it rotates out sooner.)
Do you know how depressing it would be for them to ban anything?
It would be like admitting, "We made no good cards for green, red or blue. Because we made no real explosive cards for those colors in the last two sets to even move in on top two decks in the format, these perfectly acceptable cards have to be banned"
Thoughtseize is the card with the biggest impact on the Standard. It can be hard to observe since we're used to the current format, but Thoughtseize severely hinders the viability of any deck that tries to be synergistic. That's why the only two synergistic decks are either aggro (monoblue devotion) or graveyard-based (dredge,) since those don't care as much about Thoughtseize.
But as much as I hate the card, it's not getting banned anytime soon, and I don't think it should (though I do think it should have been printed in M14 so that it rotates out sooner.)
If it had been in M14, Standard players would have had to deal with it in Jund, Junk Reanimator, and Aristocrats last year. That would have been worse than Monoblack Devotion and Esper Control.
If I could pick one it'd be thoughtseize. It's run in more than just monoblack and pretty much is the format defining card right now from what I can tell, moreso than verdict or sphinx's rev, to which there are answers.
I'd be interested in the percentage of games that are decided by which player hits the T1 thoughtseize. I know when I was testing my monoblack deck early on it was like 90%.
Without a doubt thoughtseize makes the game less fun and the meta less diverse. The whole point of the card is to disincentivize synergy and incentivize redundant, singular bombs.
Should it be banned? Of course not - that's absurd. It's a reprint. This is not some whoopsie moment where Wizards printed the wrong card at the wrong time. They knew what this card does. It most definitely should not have been reprinted. It's just awful, and really dumbs the game down - particularly because there's no T1 answer to it (like brainstorm or whatever [and no I'm not saying they should reprint brainstorm, I know what that would do to modern]). It can be cast with 100% impunity.
But it's here to stay, so #dealwithit, and construct your decks accordingly.
Should there be a ban? No. Absolutely not. There is no oppresive deck in standard right now. My only question is how do you make this list and not include Sphinx's Rev?
Should there be a ban? No. Absolutely not. There is no oppresive deck in standard right now. My only question is how do you make this list and not include Sphinx's Rev?
this. ^
imo sphinx's rev is the best card in the format. it's too good.
Thoughtseize is a very potent card too, but I'd like it (for balancing purp) if the player were to take 3 life instead of 2.
This thread is silly, no cards from theros will ever be banned, and rtr and m14 are on their way out, and besides, there are no cards EVEN CLOSE to being worthy of standard bans. When you realize that the only standard bans ever have gone to cards that are considered some of the most powerful cards ever printed, you quickly realize how ridiculous it is to disscuss this.
If you had a gun to my head however, and asked me to name a card, it would be thoughtseize, and banning it would only serve to reduce diversity and make the format more stale.
I can see the banlist remaining empty. Standard is the easiest format to balance and I don't think monoblack is anywhere near as oppressive as CAW blade or the like.
Lifebane is not even close to being bannable IMO.
Mono Black is 30% of top decks on mtgo and wins a huge percentage of tournaments. Is that not strong enough? Does it need to be 50%?
Probably more like 70-80%. With Standard, the usual idea is, "leave it alone, it will rotate in a year or so anyway." Lifebane Zombie isn't even run in all MBD decks, and it's due to leave in six months.
MBD is similar to what Jund was last year. Generally considered to be the best deck, but not oppressive the way Caw-Blade was or unfair the way Necropotence decks were.
Nothing is likely to be banned from Standard for the foreseeable future.
MTG is significantly more popular than it was even a year ago. I went to a ptq which 1 had spot available and there were 400 people there for standard. (Mono black won of course). The entire weekend I was imaging there would be a ton of r/g decks as it had recently become popular thanks to some mtgo stuff, but what I saw instead was mono black decks playing lifebane zombie in the main and getting free wins.
I believe that if wizards wants to keep standard players to keep playing, they need to take a slightly more active role in banning cards which hate on an entire color (mostly green). Green is by far the most underrepresented color in standard right now and I believe it's all because of lifebane zombie.
Lifebane Zombie happens to see more play than the others because it happens to be in the color of the mono-colored deck that is the top deck in standard right now, but they aren't going to ban it for doing exactly what they meant for it to do. they'd rather just wait it out for the minimal amount of time it will be in standard and honestly so would i.
—Karn, silver golem
I never said the meta is bad. It is certainly better than previous standard in a lot of ways. The reason thragtusk never saw a ban is that everyone could play it and there were tons of ways to generate card advantage through all of the enter the battlefield effects. Lifebane zombie was designed to remove or kill thragtusk (3 power). But now that thragtusk is gone, all incentivese to play green are also gone. My only suggestion is that by removing a critical hate card (lifebane zombie), standard would be a lot more diverse. Black would still probably dominate, but it might make some other decks viable (specifically R/G monsters, G/W aggro or midrage, Mono Green, and G/R/U).
I'm a proponent of small low risk changes to allow the metagame to expand without affecting it directly. This is why I'm in favor of banning a sideboard or hate card like lifebane zombie as opposed to a critical card like mutavault or thoughtseize. Part of this happens naturally through new cards (Deicide), but lifebane zombie is by far and away the strongest hate card (just playing it gives you an advantage) and the evasion makes it a huge clock that green decks can't even deal with.
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That's a valid opinion. The point of the thread is to discuss if there is anything ban worthy and if so what.
Well, if the meta isn't bad, then there isn't any reason to ban anything. Just to bring up an underrepresented archetype is not sufficient enough reason. They already design standard cards favoring certain archetypes, so if it doesn't **** up the meta the way they do it, then they aren't going to ban something just to favor something else.
—Karn, silver golem
I mean it actually kind of does make Green unplayable, in tandem with Doom Blade and Pack Rat and so on. Unplayable in the sense that you won't win too many games of Magic against it with a deck of green/white creatures (that isn't too fast for its own good). Just because people are stubborn enough to sleeve up Domri Rade doesn't mean they are correct in doing so.
Regardless Magic isn't a Blizzard game, we can't just cry to Blizz to nerf *****. Gotta ride it out.
They will go back down to $15, albeit temporarily, after M14 rotates
This is the most relevant thing to keep in mind. WotC hates banning cards in Standard, and would rather let the format languish in staleness or unplayability for months rather than fix it because, if you just wait long enough, it might fix itself when rotation happens or when a new set comes out. That's why it took so long to ban components in Caw and Affinity, along with Skullclamp. I suspect that the same thing will happen here.
On the other hand, if they do ban something, I'm thinking it'll be Lifebane Zombie. The reason is that this banning unlocks Selesnya as a tier one option while not harming Black Devotion at all. They don't need Lifebane in the main and they have other options like Doom Blade to play in the board, which as still powerful but not disgustingly oppressive like the zombie is. Basically banning Lifebane Zombie is "all upside".
Another possible ban target is Mutavault, because when three color goodstuff decks still try to jam a colorless land you know that the format is warped. It reminds me of when the original 12-Post, a ramp deck based on lands and Tooth & Nail, decided to gut its mana engine and rely on elves instead just to take advantage of Skullclamp.
Still, the most likely result is that nothing gets banned. This isn't Modern, where bans are meant to create the best format possible. In Standard bans are only meant to prevent the worst format possible.
False.
We are talking about Standard, not Extended or Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I know. I literally just said that:
Lifebane zombie is so crappy outside of matchups against decks with green creatures. It's not oppressive, and if you check open tournament results green decks are doing fine despite the prevalence of this card. Past 5 opens 25% of the decks played green mana and spells at the very least, sometimes it was over 40% of the decks.
I think the problem is how favorable the mono black matchup is against every single deck. I think a thoughtseize ban would definitely even things up, but black isn't at the point it is actually oppressive.
In all three of those cases those archetypes/decks were big (I don't have exact numbers, but over 50% for sure, maybe as much as 75% of the metagame). But the death blow came when you saw people stop going to these major tournaments. In the past 5 or so years, we've been able to really quantify the general audiences interest in a format by how many people show up to events now that the game is becoming more and more main stream. There weren't weekly tournaments that drew 100s of players until more recently, so they've been able to accurately gauge interest in the Standard format by looking to see if the numbers take a dip. Until you see that happen, we won't see a card get banned. People can complain that they don't like the environment, and they'll certainly listen, but they aren't banning cards as long as people keep showing up to these big tournaments every week.
But as much as I hate the card, it's not getting banned anytime soon, and I don't think it should (though I do think it should have been printed in M14 so that it rotates out sooner.)
It would be like admitting, "We made no good cards for green, red or blue. Because we made no real explosive cards for those colors in the last two sets to even move in on top two decks in the format, these perfectly acceptable cards have to be banned"
If it had been in M14, Standard players would have had to deal with it in Jund, Junk Reanimator, and Aristocrats last year. That would have been worse than Monoblack Devotion and Esper Control.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd be interested in the percentage of games that are decided by which player hits the T1 thoughtseize. I know when I was testing my monoblack deck early on it was like 90%.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Should it be banned? Of course not - that's absurd. It's a reprint. This is not some whoopsie moment where Wizards printed the wrong card at the wrong time. They knew what this card does. It most definitely should not have been reprinted. It's just awful, and really dumbs the game down - particularly because there's no T1 answer to it (like brainstorm or whatever [and no I'm not saying they should reprint brainstorm, I know what that would do to modern]). It can be cast with 100% impunity.
But it's here to stay, so #dealwithit, and construct your decks accordingly.
this. ^
imo sphinx's rev is the best card in the format. it's too good.
Thoughtseize is a very potent card too, but I'd like it (for balancing purp) if the player were to take 3 life instead of 2.
If you had a gun to my head however, and asked me to name a card, it would be thoughtseize, and banning it would only serve to reduce diversity and make the format more stale.
lifebane zombie was specifically designed to hate on a color. Each color got a creature just like it (Fiendslayer Paladin, Mindsparker, Tidebinder Mage, Witchstalker)
Lifebane Zombie happens to see more play than the others because it happens to be in the color of the mono-colored deck that is the top deck in standard right now, but they aren't going to ban it for doing exactly what they meant for it to do. they'd rather just wait it out for the minimal amount of time it will be in standard and honestly so would i.