Since Black-based devotion, G/R/x Monsters, Blue-based Devotion, and U/W/x Control have continued to dominate the format, I would like to devote a thread for anyone who likes to complain about any of these decks.
Edit: changed the name of the thread to "The Big 4 in RTR-THS Standard"
GRx Monsters dominates standard? At my LGS, at least, my Naya Monsters deck is fighting to keep its head above water I have beaten Ephara agro and Jund decks before, but mono-B destroys me every time, most of all because of Lifebane Zombie. Maybe it's just me, but Monsters feels more tier 1.5.
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EDH/Commander
UBR Sedris RG Omnath, Locus of Rage UB The Scarab God RUG Maelstrom Wanderer WU Dragonlord Ojutai
GRx Monsters dominates standard? At my LGS, at least, my Naya Monsters deck is fighting to keep its head above water I have beaten Ephara agro and Jund decks before, but mono-B destroys me every time, most of all because of Lifebane Zombie. Maybe it's just me, but Monsters feels more tier 1.5.
Domri, Garruk, Chandra, and Courser of Kruphix, draw a million threats.
I wish people would complain less/brew more. I hate Thoughtseize, I really do, but nothing else the top decks are doing is really all that unfair.
I play R/W Burn, which is pretty good across the board. Although recently, I have to move my Boros Reckoners to the sideboard cause so many Mono-black players are mainboarding Lifebane Zombie. So that does affect my G/R Monsters matchup. But my deck has shown it is able to win game 1 against G/R Monsters without Boros Reckoner.
Since Mono-Black, G/R/x Monsters, and U/W/x Control have continued to dominate the format, I would like to devote a thread for anyone who likes to complain about any or all of these three decks.
Since when is GR/X monsters part of the big 3. I have always understood the big 3 to be Esper, Monoblack and U/X Devotion and then you have the Monsters and RW Burn decks right behind them IMO.
Since Mono-Black, G/R/x Monsters, and U/W/x Control have continued to dominate the format, I would like to devote a thread for anyone who likes to complain about any or all of these three decks.
Since when is GR/X monsters part of the big 3. I have always understood the big 3 to be Esper, Monoblack and U/X Devotion and then you have the Monsters and RW Burn decks right behind them IMO.
Well, technically you're right. It's just that I consider G/R Monsters to be a part of the top tier decks since the release of BNG, in the earlier SCG Opens, they just ran over the competiton, composing a good amount of the top 8/16 spots.
And Monsters still continues to put up solid results, often outperforming Blue Devotion. Those four decks make up the upper tier of the format. If you were to discount Monsters then you might as well discount Blue Devotion, as its performances of late are often fewer. Both decks wax and wane considerably more than Black Devotion and Azorius-based Control, but are a powerful level higher than the ones beneath them. That being said, that second tier sports a few decent decks, meaning the format, while potentially stale, is far from narrow.
I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it here again. The problem is that Mutavault is mandatory, which combined with the below average mana fixing severely limits the kinds of decks you can construct.
I actually think Supreme Verdict is to blame. Not Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict.
Think about it this way. You come up with a neat deck that can do well against a lot of the format. "But how does it beat Supreme Verdict?" you ask yourself. If it can't then its back to the drawing board.
Since Mono-Black, G/R/x Monsters, and U/W/x Control have continued to dominate the format, I would like to devote a thread for anyone who likes to complain about any or all of these three decks.
Since when is GR/X monsters part of the big 3. I have always understood the big 3 to be Esper, Monoblack and U/X Devotion and then you have the Monsters and RW Burn decks right behind them IMO.
Well, technically you're right. It's just that I consider G/R Monsters to be a part of the top tier decks since the release of BNG, in the earlier SCG Opens, they just ran over the competiton, composing a good amount of the top 8/16 spots.
Only because the Mono-Black decks and the UW/x Control decks didnt have their removal tuned right mind you. Now that the removal is tuned and many people UW decks splash black for Doom Blade the GR shell doesnt put up consistent results anymore.
I mean I did said it right from the beginning that a deck relying on 4-5-6 cmc creatures wont be able to beat a deck that is loaded to the brim with discard, 2-3 cmc removal and the unholy trinity of Lifebane Zombie, Desecration Demon and Pack Rat but other people argued that that would be untrue and some kind of miracle happened. We saw how that go....
I have no problem with the the top decks. There will be always top decks. Modern has Splinter Twin and Pod at the moment. Last year it was Jund and Junk Reanimator with the occasional Aristocrats or UW-based decks sprinkled in etc.
I fail to see why this Standard is any different from that.
I think GW aggro and Naya will come back huge with Mana Confluence. The biggest drawback to both of those decks was the manabase and having Mana Confluence will help with that I believe. Will it be tier 1, im not sure, but it fixes both decks largest weakness.
personally i hated more the previous standard where naya blitz t3 kills were a thing or where every creature had a etb and ltb effects(read thragtusk). Then again, im an esper player
I have refused to play any of the big four decks and I have payed for it dearly. I had to stop playing anything with green or white creatures because of Lifebane Zombie.
Right now I'm running a weird burn-ish build centered around Young Pyromancer, Chandra's Phoenix, Satyr Nyx-Smith, and 4x Hammer of Purphoros. The curve stops at three so I can pump out golems with the Hammer as a wincon. Drawing multiple hammers isn't really an issue because if I have a hammer in play I am generally in good shape. It's really a control deck rather than burn (4x chained to the rocks and 4x mortars maindeck). I have had a lot of success at my LGS against Jund Monsters, UWx control, and aggressive decks of various persuasions. I'm just glad I found a deck that is reasonable against the big four and is somewhat unique.
I wish people would complain less/brew more. I hate Thoughtseize, I really do, but nothing else the top decks are doing is really all that unfair.
Desecration Demon > Grey Merchant > Grey Merchant is fair?
The only reason that mono black does well is because it has the best closers in the format. Mono Blue has to get an active thassa to close out a game which requires work and there is interaction when she attacks even if unblockable. Stormbreath Dragon has to connect through other flyiers and black removal spells.
Grey merchant needs nothing at all. You just play your deck like you normally would and it kills you, prevents damage races, and doesn't care what your opponent's board state looks like.
Standard has gone stale because Theros block is just horrible compared to RTR block.
Nearly everything has a 1 or 2 tagged onto the casting cost and the hate cards are very minimal. Mistcutter Hydra is the only one I can think of.
The only cards from Theros block being played are removal spells, discard spells and counter spells. There are a few creatures that are exceptions but they're almost non-existent.
This is a failure by Wizards design to integrate the 2 standard legal blocks. Heroic, inspired and bestow are just jank limited only mechanics that don't cut it in competitive 1 on 1 games.
Gary needs stuff done. A Gary on an empty board does not auto swing the game. All formats have top decks. It happens. Last Standard had Jund. Modern has Twin and Pod. The format is actually healthy. No, your Possibility Storm + Colossus of Akros deck will not win an SCG Open. But neither would Possibility Storm + Curse lock deck last Standard. You have at least 5 viable decks. Ignoring variants and things like G/B Dredge, that is pretty damn good.
I wish people would complain less/brew more. I hate Thoughtseize, I really do, but nothing else the top decks are doing is really all that unfair.
Desecration Demon > Grey Merchant > Grey Merchant is fair?
The only reason that mono black does well is because it has the best closers in the format. Mono Blue has to get an active thassa to close out a game which requires work and there is interaction when she attacks even if unblockable. Stormbreath Dragon has to connect through other flyiers and black removal spells.
Grey merchant needs nothing at all. You just play your deck like you normally would and it kills you, prevents damage races, and doesn't care what your opponent's board state looks like.
Counter them, keep the field clean, or kill in response to the trigger.
I wish people would complain less/brew more. I hate Thoughtseize, I really do, but nothing else the top decks are doing is really all that unfair.
Desecration Demon > Grey Merchant > Grey Merchant is fair?
The only reason that mono black does well is because it has the best closers in the format. Mono Blue has to get an active thassa to close out a game which requires work and there is interaction when she attacks even if unblockable. Stormbreath Dragon has to connect through other flyiers and black removal spells.
Grey merchant needs nothing at all. You just play your deck like you normally would and it kills you, prevents damage races, and doesn't care what your opponent's board state looks like.
Counter them, keep the field clean, or kill in response to the trigger.
If that was the case pack rat wouldn't be a card.
The problem here is JOU does nothing to fix the problem or give any answers. So now we have to wait on the Core set in July for anything to change this meta. Even then it might not change after rotation. The only RtR cards are the creatures. The removal, discard, and gary are all from Theros.
I wish people would complain less/brew more. I hate Thoughtseize, I really do, but nothing else the top decks are doing is really all that unfair.
Desecration Demon > Grey Merchant > Grey Merchant is fair?
The only reason that mono black does well is because it has the best closers in the format. Mono Blue has to get an active thassa to close out a game which requires work and there is interaction when she attacks even if unblockable. Stormbreath Dragon has to connect through other flyiers and black removal spells.
Grey merchant needs nothing at all. You just play your deck like you normally would and it kills you, prevents damage races, and doesn't care what your opponent's board state looks like.
Counter them, keep the field clean, or kill in response to the trigger.
If that was the case pack rat wouldn't be a card.
The problem here is JOU does nothing to fix the problem or give any answers. So now we have to wait on the Core set in July for anything to change this meta. Even then it might not change after rotation. The only RtR cards are the creatures. The removal, discard, and gary are all from Theros.
I was talking about Garys and Demons. As for Pack Rat, you have to Verdict/D. Sphere or go over it. 1-for-1 removal isn't enough when they play Turn 5 Pack Rat with 3 mana up. Green creature decks having to contend with Lifebane/Pack Rat/mass removal/Thoughtseize/Demon is unfortunate though.
GRx Monsters dominates standard? At my LGS, at least, my Naya Monsters deck is fighting to keep its head above water I have beaten Ephara agro and Jund decks before, but mono-B destroys me every time, most of all because of Lifebane Zombie. Maybe it's just me, but Monsters feels more tier 1.5.
Lol... you need to board better. Board in some non-zero amount of removal, board green fatties. Ride stormbreath or 2/2 satyrs to a win. Enchantment hate out of the board is a must to keep them from drawing 1-3 cards @ your eot and dropping a big gary. You need to attack their strategy and GR/x has enchantment and devotion hate tools at it's disposal. It also hate****s control hard.
Anyways, naya hexproof steals wins from the big 4, as does u/w and the cornercase u/w/x humans.
If you some how build a deck that can handle that.. there is another two decks of the big 4 to beat.
You have to have a deck with enough removal density that it doesn't lose its only removal to a thoughtsieze but then your deck has too slow a clock to get UWx control low enough before the revs come out. Alternatively you have a deck that is fast and threat heavy to out race pack rat and mono blacks spot removal... but that verdict is going to kill you everytime, elspeth is near impossible to beat and getting around the deamon is not trivial.
There is one deck that fulfills this requirements.... R/W burn and its horrible against the other 2 decks and has a couple of tricky cards even in its better match ups.
ok rant over... just getting that frustration out. I'll go back to trying to find a way around these problems.
R/W Burn's matchup against G/R Monsters isn't that bad if you have Boros Reckoner and Chained to the Rocks. Also, there was this one time against G/R Monsters where I actually forgot to sideboard in the Boros Reckoners and I still won lol. Also, mono-blue is almost nonexistent at my LGS, which certainly helps when playing R/W Burn.
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Edit: changed the name of the thread to "The Big 4 in RTR-THS Standard"
Yes I run main deck Swan Song just to respect that one card.
UBR Sedris
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage
UB The Scarab God
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer
WU Dragonlord Ojutai
Domri, Garruk, Chandra, and Courser of Kruphix, draw a million threats.
I play R/W Burn, which is pretty good across the board. Although recently, I have to move my Boros Reckoners to the sideboard cause so many Mono-black players are mainboarding Lifebane Zombie. So that does affect my G/R Monsters matchup. But my deck has shown it is able to win game 1 against G/R Monsters without Boros Reckoner.
Since when is GR/X monsters part of the big 3. I have always understood the big 3 to be Esper, Monoblack and U/X Devotion and then you have the Monsters and RW Burn decks right behind them IMO.
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
Well, technically you're right. It's just that I consider G/R Monsters to be a part of the top tier decks since the release of BNG, in the earlier SCG Opens, they just ran over the competiton, composing a good amount of the top 8/16 spots.
Think about it this way. You come up with a neat deck that can do well against a lot of the format. "But how does it beat Supreme Verdict?" you ask yourself. If it can't then its back to the drawing board.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
Only because the Mono-Black decks and the UW/x Control decks didnt have their removal tuned right mind you. Now that the removal is tuned and many people UW decks splash black for Doom Blade the GR shell doesnt put up consistent results anymore.
I mean I did said it right from the beginning that a deck relying on 4-5-6 cmc creatures wont be able to beat a deck that is loaded to the brim with discard, 2-3 cmc removal and the unholy trinity of Lifebane Zombie, Desecration Demon and Pack Rat but other people argued that that would be untrue and some kind of miracle happened. We saw how that go....
I have no problem with the the top decks. There will be always top decks. Modern has Splinter Twin and Pod at the moment. Last year it was Jund and Junk Reanimator with the occasional Aristocrats or UW-based decks sprinkled in etc.
I fail to see why this Standard is any different from that.
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
Right now I'm running a weird burn-ish build centered around Young Pyromancer, Chandra's Phoenix, Satyr Nyx-Smith, and 4x Hammer of Purphoros. The curve stops at three so I can pump out golems with the Hammer as a wincon. Drawing multiple hammers isn't really an issue because if I have a hammer in play I am generally in good shape. It's really a control deck rather than burn (4x chained to the rocks and 4x mortars maindeck). I have had a lot of success at my LGS against Jund Monsters, UWx control, and aggressive decks of various persuasions. I'm just glad I found a deck that is reasonable against the big four and is somewhat unique.
Desecration Demon > Grey Merchant > Grey Merchant is fair?
The only reason that mono black does well is because it has the best closers in the format. Mono Blue has to get an active thassa to close out a game which requires work and there is interaction when she attacks even if unblockable. Stormbreath Dragon has to connect through other flyiers and black removal spells.
Grey merchant needs nothing at all. You just play your deck like you normally would and it kills you, prevents damage races, and doesn't care what your opponent's board state looks like.
Nearly everything has a 1 or 2 tagged onto the casting cost and the hate cards are very minimal. Mistcutter Hydra is the only one I can think of.
The only cards from Theros block being played are removal spells, discard spells and counter spells. There are a few creatures that are exceptions but they're almost non-existent.
This is a failure by Wizards design to integrate the 2 standard legal blocks. Heroic, inspired and bestow are just jank limited only mechanics that don't cut it in competitive 1 on 1 games.
Gary needs stuff done. A Gary on an empty board does not auto swing the game. All formats have top decks. It happens. Last Standard had Jund. Modern has Twin and Pod. The format is actually healthy. No, your Possibility Storm + Colossus of Akros deck will not win an SCG Open. But neither would Possibility Storm + Curse lock deck last Standard. You have at least 5 viable decks. Ignoring variants and things like G/B Dredge, that is pretty damn good.
Standard
RWUAmerica TempoUWR
& More...
Modern
URXGrixis/Tarmo/Tempo TwinURX
Counter them, keep the field clean, or kill in response to the trigger.
If that was the case pack rat wouldn't be a card.
The problem here is JOU does nothing to fix the problem or give any answers. So now we have to wait on the Core set in July for anything to change this meta. Even then it might not change after rotation. The only RtR cards are the creatures. The removal, discard, and gary are all from Theros.
I was talking about Garys and Demons. As for Pack Rat, you have to Verdict/D. Sphere or go over it. 1-for-1 removal isn't enough when they play Turn 5 Pack Rat with 3 mana up. Green creature decks having to contend with Lifebane/Pack Rat/mass removal/Thoughtseize/Demon is unfortunate though.
Lol... you need to board better. Board in some non-zero amount of removal, board green fatties. Ride stormbreath or 2/2 satyrs to a win. Enchantment hate out of the board is a must to keep them from drawing 1-3 cards @ your eot and dropping a big gary. You need to attack their strategy and GR/x has enchantment and devotion hate tools at it's disposal. It also hate****s control hard.
Anyways, naya hexproof steals wins from the big 4, as does u/w and the cornercase u/w/x humans.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
but.... good luck beating Thoughtsieze into pack rat or supreme verdict into sphinxes revelation .
Its hard enough to build a deck that can beat those combinations but thats just the first wall. Now build a deck that can beat desecration demon and underworld connections or detention sphere and plainswalkers.
If you some how build a deck that can handle that.. there is another two decks of the big 4 to beat.
You have to have a deck with enough removal density that it doesn't lose its only removal to a thoughtsieze but then your deck has too slow a clock to get UWx control low enough before the revs come out. Alternatively you have a deck that is fast and threat heavy to out race pack rat and mono blacks spot removal... but that verdict is going to kill you everytime, elspeth is near impossible to beat and getting around the deamon is not trivial.
There is one deck that fulfills this requirements.... R/W burn and its horrible against the other 2 decks and has a couple of tricky cards even in its better match ups.
ok rant over... just getting that frustration out. I'll go back to trying to find a way around these problems.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own