And yes Burn is actually cheaper than Mono-Black but it's an anti-metagame deck. Once the meta shifts again it wont be as good anymore.
The big archetypes are UW/x Control, Bx decks, U/x Devotion and GR/x decks. Those are the only decks that have put up good and consistent results basically since Theros got released.
Well those are far from Tier 1. They can't compete with the big ones. I dont know the price point of those but I imagine that Junk would be far more expensive because of the mana base and generally being just a goodstuff deck.
And yes Burn is actually cheaper than Mono-Black but it's an anti-metagame deck. Once the meta shifts again it wont be as good anymore.
The big archetypes are UW/x Control, Bx decks, U/x Devotion and GR/x decks. Those are the only decks that have put up good and consistent results basically since Theros got released.
The way I see it, R/W Burn is just a variant of R/W Aggro. Is its current success temporary? Perhaps. But R/W aggro has been around for a good while and will continue to be a decent deck with varying degrees of success, even if it is no longer a top tier deck
And yes Burn is actually cheaper than Mono-Black but it's an anti-metagame deck. Once the meta shifts again it wont be as good anymore.
The big archetypes are UW/x Control, Bx decks, U/x Devotion and GR/x decks. Those are the only decks that have put up good and consistent results basically since Theros got released.
The way I see it, R/W Burn is just a variant of R/W Aggro. Is its current success temporary? Perhaps. But R/W aggro has been around for a good while and I can assure you it will continue to be a viable deck with varying degrees of success for time to come.
Yes of course but he mentioned Tier 1 decks and the decks I mentioned are those. Viable is not the same as Tier 1
Tier 1 right now is rather hard to establish but i'm inclined to agree with Galerion that Mono black would be the cheapest sans mutavaults.
Demon $4
Downfall $4
Thoughtseize $14 (Ouch)
Pack Rat $1.50
Connections $1
Herald of Torment $1
Lifebane $5 (sideboard or main I prefer herald main and Zombie in the side)
Everything else is uncommons or bulk rares
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Sounds about right. Even if tier 1 is hard to identify, though, there's some really quick process of elimination.
MBD A bit over 120 for the main core?
UW control - Sphinx's rev, Jace, Elspeth, SV, lands = 240 for the main core?
GR monsters - Domri, Xenagos, SBD, Polukranos (you can sorta cut corners here with deadbridge goliath), caryatid, ooze, lands (muta is actually a bit more important here but I won't count it) = 280ish for the main core not counting polukranos?
MUD (actually a lot cheaper now) - Thassa, MOW, nightveil, Jace, muta (also a bit more important here but I'll calculate without) = 150 for the core?
Tier 1 right now is rather hard to establish but i'm inclined to agree with Galerion that Mono black would be the cheapest sans mutavaults.
Note, though, that Mutavault is huge in Black Devotion since it's a free 2/2 that can chip away at people, in addition to being a rat and making Pack Rat absolutely ridiculous. You can run it without Mutavault, but it'll be noticeably weaker for it, perhaps more so than any other budget choice you could make for the deck.
Tier 1 right now is rather hard to establish but i'm inclined to agree with Galerion that Mono black would be the cheapest sans mutavaults.
Note, though, that Mutavault is huge in Black Devotion since it's a free 2/2 that can chip away at people, in addition to being a rat and making Pack Rat absolutely ridiculous. You can run it without Mutavault, but it'll be noticeably weaker for it, perhaps more so than any other budget choice you could make for the deck.
Mutavault is a huge part of every deck that runs it.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
My point was it does more for Black Devotion than other decks where it's "only" a free 2/2 that dodges sorcery-speed removal. Like, it does a hell of a lot more with Pack Rat than Master of Waves as far as tribal synergy goes.
Maze's End is totally the cheapest Tier 1 deck. But bad jokes aside, mono Black is probably the cheapest. Mutavaults are expensive but so are temple and shocks as you add more colors.
Tiers are determined by win % across the field. Statistically, RW Burn is a Tier 1 deck, along with Esper Control and GR Monsters. MBC, UW Control and Uw Devotion sit just below that (some people like to use Tier 1.5, so I guess that is fine and appropriate here).
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Tiers are determined by win % across the field. Statistically, RW Burn is a Tier 1 deck, along with Esper Control and GR Monsters. MBC, UW Control and Uw Devotion sit just below that (some people like to use Tier 1.5, so I guess that is fine and appropriate here).
Is that how tiers are determined? If you wouldn't mind could you show me these statistics from the start of theros block standard? I'm really interested in seeing them.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
That's how we determine tiers - its the most empirical method and doesn't overvalue 1-off results. If you look at Josh Silvestri's work at cfb he publishes analysis of our data from time to time.
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Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
That's how we determine tiers - its the most empirical method and doesn't overvalue 1-off results. If you look at Josh Silvestri's work at cfb he publishes analysis of our data from time to time.
I would like to see how he breaks down the statistics because my own findings represent this
there have been 173 Mono Black Decks that have top 8'ed tourneys in the past 2 months.
there have been 39 R/W Burn/Aggro decks.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
The initial tiers stated are the correct Tier 1 decks: U/W/x control, G/R/x monsters, B/x control midrange, U/x devotion.
That being said I really hope we see more of the R/W aggro burn deck. A tournament with 150 MBD decks, 150 MUD decks, 150 U/Wx decks, and 150 G/R/x monster decks and 20 R/W burn decks might not exactly be a great statistical representation of the strength of the R/W burn deck. I would bet that a vast minority of players play R/W burn aggro, and I believe it's a huge statement that it has appeared in the top 4 two weeks straight.
And can we get real for a moment? MBD is the cheapest deck without the $120 worth of key cards? Is that suppose to be a joke or are we all just denying reality? When you price a deck, price EVERY card in it, not just the cheapest jfc.....
The initial tiers stated are the correct Tier 1 decks: U/W/x control, G/R/x monsters, B/x control midrange, U/x devotion.
That being said I really hope we see more of the R/W aggro burn deck. A tournament with 150 MBD decks, 150 MUD decks, 150 U/Wx decks, and 150 G/R/x monster decks and 20 R/W burn decks might not exactly be a great statistical representation of the strength of the R/W burn deck. I would bet that a vast minority of players play R/W burn aggro, and I believe it's a huge statement that it has appeared in the top 4 two weeks straight.
And can we get real for a moment? MBD is the cheapest deck without the $120 worth of key cards? Is that suppose to be a joke or are we all just denying reality? When you price a deck, price EVERY card in it, not just the cheapest jfc.....
The point was Mono Black is the cheapest with the mutavaults and that the mutavaults are roughly half the cost of the deck. The OP is clearly concerned about the cost of the deck and cutting the mutavaults is obviously not ideal the deck doesn't fall apart without them. Mono Blue would fall apart without thassa and G/R monsters would fall apart without domri. U/W can't function without sphinx's revs, elspeth, and jace.
In case you didn't realize ALL of those decks run mutavaults.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
It's common to definte tiers on popularity (how many people run the deck) or results (how often does the deck make Day 2, Top 8, Win, etc.) By that measure, B/x Devotion is Tier 1 and R/w Burn is lower on the totem pole.
According to Zem, Josh is defining it by Win%. It's quite possible that R/w Burn has a higher popularity, but doesn't have the quantity of results because fewer people are running it.
Which is correct? You could argue for either. On one hand, the deck that wins a higher percentage of the time is generally the better deck, even if it's not the more popular deck. On the other hand, why is it winning more often? It could be that there are more bad players piloting B/x, for example. It could also be that players aren't tuning their decks to beat Burn, because it's less popular and/or perceived as worse.
If Boros Burn really does have a better win % than mono-black, that's really significant. The "pro"/"hardcore" players tend to flock to control strategies and the newer players tend to default to cheap and aggressive decks, so aggressive decks tend to post lower stats than they would if the decks were being piloted by players of equal skill and experience*. If burn decks are already doing better than black decks statistically, then they are almost certainly tier 1 in the current meta.
* Incidentally, this also means that control decks tend to post better stats than their actual power level would be in an even distribution.
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URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/stats/Paper Standard
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/standard
And yes Burn is actually cheaper than Mono-Black but it's an anti-metagame deck. Once the meta shifts again it wont be as good anymore.
The big archetypes are UW/x Control, Bx decks, U/x Devotion and GR/x decks. Those are the only decks that have put up good and consistent results basically since Theros got released.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Well those are far from Tier 1. They can't compete with the big ones. I dont know the price point of those but I imagine that Junk would be far more expensive because of the mana base and generally being just a goodstuff deck.
The way I see it, R/W Burn is just a variant of R/W Aggro. Is its current success temporary? Perhaps. But R/W aggro has been around for a good while and will continue to be a decent deck with varying degrees of success, even if it is no longer a top tier deck
Yes of course but he mentioned Tier 1 decks and the decks I mentioned are those. Viable is not the same as Tier 1
Demon $4
Downfall $4
Thoughtseize $14 (Ouch)
Pack Rat $1.50
Connections $1
Herald of Torment $1
Lifebane $5 (sideboard or main I prefer herald main and Zombie in the side)
Everything else is uncommons or bulk rares
MBD A bit over 120 for the main core?
UW control - Sphinx's rev, Jace, Elspeth, SV, lands = 240 for the main core?
GR monsters - Domri, Xenagos, SBD, Polukranos (you can sorta cut corners here with deadbridge goliath), caryatid, ooze, lands (muta is actually a bit more important here but I won't count it) = 280ish for the main core not counting polukranos?
MUD (actually a lot cheaper now) - Thassa, MOW, nightveil, Jace, muta (also a bit more important here but I'll calculate without) = 150 for the core?
If its 3 colors, it'll be more.
Note, though, that Mutavault is huge in Black Devotion since it's a free 2/2 that can chip away at people, in addition to being a rat and making Pack Rat absolutely ridiculous. You can run it without Mutavault, but it'll be noticeably weaker for it, perhaps more so than any other budget choice you could make for the deck.
Mutavault is a huge part of every deck that runs it.
Tiers are determined by win % across the field. Statistically, RW Burn is a Tier 1 deck, along with Esper Control and GR Monsters. MBC, UW Control and Uw Devotion sit just below that (some people like to use Tier 1.5, so I guess that is fine and appropriate here).
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
Is that how tiers are determined? If you wouldn't mind could you show me these statistics from the start of theros block standard? I'm really interested in seeing them.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
I would like to see how he breaks down the statistics because my own findings represent this
there have been 173 Mono Black Decks that have top 8'ed tourneys in the past 2 months.
there have been 39 R/W Burn/Aggro decks.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
That being said I really hope we see more of the R/W aggro burn deck. A tournament with 150 MBD decks, 150 MUD decks, 150 U/Wx decks, and 150 G/R/x monster decks and 20 R/W burn decks might not exactly be a great statistical representation of the strength of the R/W burn deck. I would bet that a vast minority of players play R/W burn aggro, and I believe it's a huge statement that it has appeared in the top 4 two weeks straight.
And can we get real for a moment? MBD is the cheapest deck without the $120 worth of key cards? Is that suppose to be a joke or are we all just denying reality? When you price a deck, price EVERY card in it, not just the cheapest jfc.....
The point was Mono Black is the cheapest with the mutavaults and that the mutavaults are roughly half the cost of the deck. The OP is clearly concerned about the cost of the deck and cutting the mutavaults is obviously not ideal the deck doesn't fall apart without them. Mono Blue would fall apart without thassa and G/R monsters would fall apart without domri. U/W can't function without sphinx's revs, elspeth, and jace.
In case you didn't realize ALL of those decks run mutavaults.
It depends on how you definte "Tier 1."
It's common to definte tiers on popularity (how many people run the deck) or results (how often does the deck make Day 2, Top 8, Win, etc.) By that measure, B/x Devotion is Tier 1 and R/w Burn is lower on the totem pole.
According to Zem, Josh is defining it by Win%. It's quite possible that R/w Burn has a higher popularity, but doesn't have the quantity of results because fewer people are running it.
Which is correct? You could argue for either. On one hand, the deck that wins a higher percentage of the time is generally the better deck, even if it's not the more popular deck. On the other hand, why is it winning more often? It could be that there are more bad players piloting B/x, for example. It could also be that players aren't tuning their decks to beat Burn, because it's less popular and/or perceived as worse.
* Incidentally, this also means that control decks tend to post better stats than their actual power level would be in an even distribution.