What chances are there for JOU to give us a competitive aggro-control deck?
If you are talking about some blue one like in the style of Delver with counterspells and all that than the answer is probably no. Supreme Verdict says no. Just like it says no to Mono-Blue Devotion.
I think this format has two big issues. One is how bad the mana fixing is. Its painful to even think of playing a second color outside of Gruul decks just because its too easy to mana screw yourself. The second color can usually kill yourself. Either the damage from the lands or having it come into play tapped does not benefit certain decks.
The second thing wrong is how decks run so many cards that don't make your opponent interact with you. Burn decks don't care what your doing, Thoughtseize doesnt care what your doing, Control decks dont care what your doing, hexproof doesnt care what your doing, etc.
I kind of wish that Thoughtseize wasnt reprinted since it has such a big grip on the format. I dont expect it to be dealt with until Theros rotates out but it warped the format pretty bad to where its either your playing a Thoughtseize deck, a Domri Rade deck, a Sphinx's Rev deck or a Master of Waves deck.
Just playing burn happily and casually and waiting for Pharika and other related goodies in nyx to drop and play junk reanimator....
Agreed. All that Standard needs for Reanimator to be playable is a second reanimation spell that does not require you to sacrifice a creature or play white. I hope that it happens (it is one of the few things that could get me to play in Standard, along with some spells that make a Young Pyromancer/Spellheart Chimera deck viable).
I actually think standard is pretty terrible right now. Particularly because UWx control is just so damn busted. You can play Bx devotion to some success but that's about it. There are 2 decks in standard. Naya hexproof is terrible, Ux devotion is terrible, burn is terrible even RG monsters is pretty weak(it put exactly 0 decks into the top 16 GP cincinnati). You're pretty much playing one of 2 decks or you're just resigning yourself to lose. Cincinnati had 6 UWx control decks and 5 Bx devotion decks in the top 16, making up over 2 thirds of the winning decklists. When all other archetypes combined can't even get a third of the winning slots then it's pretty obvious that standard is incredibly unbalanced.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I think this format has two big issues. One is how bad the mana fixing is. Its painful to even think of playing a second color outside of Gruul decks just because its too easy to mana screw yourself. The second color can usually kill yourself. Either the damage from the lands or having it come into play tapped does not benefit certain decks.
The second thing wrong is how decks run so many cards that don't make your opponent interact with you. Burn decks don't care what your doing, Thoughtseize doesnt care what your doing, Control decks dont care what your doing, hexproof doesnt care what your doing, etc.
I kind of wish that Thoughtseize wasnt reprinted since it has such a big grip on the format. I dont expect it to be dealt with until Theros rotates out but it warped the format pretty bad to where its either your playing a Thoughtseize deck, a Domri Rade deck, a Sphinx's Rev deck or a Master of Waves deck.
Control decks by their very definition care about what you are doing and there are also the most interactive archetype in the game since all their cards are meant to interact with what your are doing.
I think this format has two big issues. One is how bad the mana fixing is. Its painful to even think of playing a second color outside of Gruul decks just because its too easy to mana screw yourself. The second color can usually kill yourself. Either the damage from the lands or having it come into play tapped does not benefit certain decks.
The second thing wrong is how decks run so many cards that don't make your opponent interact with you. Burn decks don't care what your doing, Thoughtseize doesnt care what your doing, Control decks dont care what your doing, hexproof doesnt care what your doing, etc.
I kind of wish that Thoughtseize wasnt reprinted since it has such a big grip on the format. I dont expect it to be dealt with until Theros rotates out but it warped the format pretty bad to where its either your playing a Thoughtseize deck, a Domri Rade deck, a Sphinx's Rev deck or a Master of Waves deck.
Control decks by their very definition care about what you are doing and there are also the most interactive archetype in the game since all their cards are meant to interact with what your are doing.
I should have rephrased that. In this meta, most decks do not specifically care what your doing. Thoughtseize discards anything. You cannot play around Thoughtseize unless you just dont play cards or play out your whole hand. Same with burn spells and Sphinx's Rev. You dont have to interact with these cards, they just do what they do regardless of whatever your opponent is doing.
The format has gotten to where its Sphinx's Rev vs Thoughtseize with some minor other things going on. Its almost like Thoughtseize is needed to beat the Sphinxs Rev decks, but with Thoughtseize its a vicious cycle. The next block really needs to do some work since playing with Thoughtseize for another year and a half sounds pretty miserable.
Sure but discard is part of blacks color pie just like card draw is part of blues color pie. If you want to give the other colors especially white and green constantly some ridiculous pushed creatures then you should give the spell colors something good also from time to time. Sphinx's Revelation can be beaten with counterspells and it's an expensive late-game spell anyway and while there is no way to interact with a turn 1 Thoughtseize you dont have to since it is still just a 1 for 1 trade at the expense of 2 life. Thoughtseize is not broken or anything otherwise Wizard wouldnt have put it into Standard. I mean they think cards like Counterspell and Mana Leak are "too good" now. They have some ridiculous Standard about what is fair and what is not.
Sure but discard is part of blacks color pie just like card draw is part of blues color pie. If you want to give the other colors especially white and green constantly some ridiculous pushed creatures then you should give the spell colors something good also from time to time. Sphinx's Revelation can be beaten with counterspells and it's an expensive late-game spell anyway and while there is no way to interact with a turn 1 Thoughtseize you dont have to since it is still just a 1 for 1 trade at the expense of 2 life. Thoughtseize is not broken or anything otherwise Wizard wouldnt have put it into Standard. I mean they think cards like Counterspell and Mana Leak are "too good" now. They have some ridiculous Standard about what is fair and what is not.
Well discard is fine, but being able to discard any card you want isnt fine. Thoughtseize isnt like Duress or Sin Collector in that you can play a certain deck to get around these cards. The main problem with Thoughtseize is that you just cant do anything about it.
I know Wizards hasnt made too many mistakes over the last few years, but Thoughtseize might be one of them. Its hard to say if thats really true since theres still two sets left until a new block comes out, but so far, its just not been good for the format.
I would like to see Force Spike in Standard so I can play it in Modern, but noooooo. People say it's too good for Standard, even though we have Thoughtseize. Because reasons.
Thoughtseize is a really good card, but no way is it broken. The two life loss is relevent against aggro decks. I can remember when Thoughtseize and Extirpate where played together. I would be ok with Force Spike being reprinted.
Thoughtseize is a really good card, but no way is it broken. The two life loss is relevent against aggro decks. I can remember when Thoughtseize and Extirpate where played together. I would be ok with Force Spike being reprinted.
I would like to see some narrow answer to Thoughtseize like a creature or enchantment come out with an effect like "whenever a spell your opponent controls causes you to discard a card, instead discard BLANK and put a 2/2 warrior enchantment, or 2/1 bird enchantment creature token on the battlefield under your control" and the card could be like a 2 CMC enchantment creature. After consideration I believe a card like this would be too strong. While fair against thoughtseize its not fair against duress or rakdos's return......Maybe like if BLANK is an eligible target the effect triggers.
Thoughtseize is too powerful, if you're not playing black you're at a considerable disadvantage. I mean what is everyone else's turn 1 play? Judges Familiar or Elvish Mystic or Rakdos Cackler. Black's turn 1 play is comparably as strong as many deck's turn 3 plays, basically the card says "at the beginning of the game, pay 2 life, remove the single most powerful card in your opponent's hand from the game" because the vast majority of the time that discarded card won't impact the game from the graveyard.
Black has too many universally powerful cards. Thoughtseize hits everything and Hero's Downfall hit's everything, it's just not good design. And the fact that they're both in the same color just leads to a powerfully consistent manabase and safe access to 4 mutavault without worrying about color screw.
I think Mono Blue is a good example of a fair deck. They play a lot of mediocre cards in order to hit a critical mass. Synergy is fair, cards that are good in every match are not.
And yeah Thoughtseize is good against burn even. If you make them discard their ash zealot or Warleader's Helix you might have just won the game right there.
Oh god. And here I am hoping that when the next Standard block comes I won't be seeing mono-black everytime I go to FNM.
Oh if only Liliana of the Veil would still be legal or would be reprinted.
You could really curve out that way.
At least you will be able to do that in Modern.
Thoughtseize is not broke. Turn 1, I play my best card AKA Thoughtseize and lose 2 life to remove your best card in your hand at given moment if any card is broke in standard it is Supreme Verdict. I think the only problem with standard is lower card pool than we used to get.
supreme verdict is what is wrong with standard. A 4cc spell that can't be countered is just ridiculous and makes aggro decks not viable. Sphinx's Rev is even fine since it's super late game and can be countered.
supreme verdict is what is wrong with standard. A 4cc spell that can't be countered is just ridiculous and makes aggro decks not viable. Sphinx's Rev is even fine since it's super late game and can be countered.
Exactly, Supreme Verdict should've been 6 mana or more Wrath Of God cost 4 mana to play. How much is uncounterablity worth?
Sup. Verdict does a number on Delver style decks but it isn't really THAT oppressive. If you want your Spellheart Chimera deck to beat it, look into Mutavaults, Steam Augury, burn spells, Stormbreath Dragons, etc. and away from cluttered boardstates and Prognostic Sphinx. Stick 1-2 threats, then pressure them and keep them off Jace/Elspeth by holding mana (and EoT Augury to rebuild if they do nothing). Later you keep them off Rev 3+ obviously (Izzet Charm, Dissolve, Syncopate, whatever).
The greater issue with that deck is Izzet Guildgate and a lack of variety/power in Instants and Sorceries. The burn spells don't hit enough (mass of 2s from Izzet Charm, Magma Jet, Turn // Burn...but the most played creature in Standard is a 2/3), the deck has some tough mana requirements but needs man lands to fight control, and the overall power level of the non-creature side just isn't high enough. Steam Augury, Turn // Burn and Lightning Strike are 100% good enough (given how the format has shaped up), but from there it gets shakier with what you play. Also there is a notable lack of playable cantrips in Standard. It's hard to find room for Quicken (given how your burn spells have holes in them) even though Young Pyromancer/Chimera really need cantrips to get the ball rolling. Quicken is too narrow, and Inaction Injunction seems unplayable (if you mainboard it it's a solid brick against UW control, and it seems too low impact for sideboard play).
I could see a Serum Visions reprint as a possibility. It would fix this issue and also hook aspiring Modern players up with a playset that doesn't cost $12. It works mechanically with Theros and is weaker than Preordain to the point where it wouldn't likely be busted.
Also on topic I have a strong suspicion that a Prophetic Bolt reprint is coming. It is a flavor knockout with Keranos (God of prophecy and storms, Prophet Bolt, huuuh) while providing a strong but not broken RU Instant that gets an unoccupied spot on the curve. It also kills Blood Baron and Stormbreath Dragon, both of which are trolling the format right now with Pro White. UWR with Warleader's Helix isn't a thing because of those two cards, really, so Prophetic Bolt could open up the door to several deck styles. Namely, UWR Burn/Control (Ral Zarek, Lightning Strike, Aurelia's Fury, Helix, Prophetic Bolt, maybe Rev, maybe even Pyromancer's Gauntlet as a 1-of), UR Tempo, UR Burn, UR Control, etc.
Not to mention that Keranos might just be an Indestructible Guttersnipe esque card, likely with Scry triggers on all of your instants/sorceries. Much like how mill has been the UB "thing" since Dimir has been in office, I imagine the RU God will cater to the playstyle offered by Izzet, Steam Augury and Spellheart Chimera (even if the Izzet cards are largely situational and underpowered). I'll be a little disappointed if it's EDH fodder (we already have Melek for that, supreme disappointment) but even then the U/R Temple is still an exciting prospect.
There are so many answers to supreme verdict I can't even take you people seriously. Rootborn Defenses is a blowout, Boros Charm, Golgari Charm, Xarhrid Necromancer. If control decks didn't have Supreme Verdict they wouldn't even be viable. Aggro preys on controls decks, its in the archetype wheel.
supreme verdict is what is wrong with standard. A 4cc spell that can't be countered is just ridiculous and makes aggro decks not viable. Sphinx's Rev is even fine since it's super late game and can be countered.
Exactly, Supreme Verdict should've been 6 mana or more Wrath Of God cost 4 mana to play. How much is uncounterablity worth?
A single blue mana obviously. The cost is completely reasonable. UW/x Control is the only deck that keeps Standard from turning into a "turn my creatures sideways" format. Wizards caters already enough to the creature crowd.
Literally everything in Theros block cares about creatures. Be it heroic, monstrosity, bestow, tribute and for the most part devotion since there are not many playable non-creature permanents, all the gods especially the BNG ones etc.
supreme verdict is what is wrong with standard. A 4cc spell that can't be countered is just ridiculous and makes aggro decks not viable. Sphinx's Rev is even fine since it's super late game and can be countered.
Exactly, Supreme Verdict should've been 6 mana or more Wrath Of God cost 4 mana to play. How much is uncounterablity worth?
A single blue mana obviously. The cost is completely reasonable. UW/x Control is the only deck that keeps Standard from turning into a "turn my creatures sideways" format. Wizards caters already enough to the creature crowd.
Literally everything in Theros block cares about creatures. Be it heroic, monstrosity, bestow, tribute and for the most part devotion since there are not many playable non-creature permanents, all the gods especially the BNG ones etc.
I agree, with out a good board sweeper control would be hard to play, with that said, MBC doesn't have a good board sweeper like Damnation and it sees plenty of play. My only problem with Supreme Verdict is it being uncounterable. I guess it does help speed up control vs control matchups . I like standard at the moment, just like more cards to work with.
I could see a Serum Visions reprint as a possibility. It would fix this issue and also hook aspiring Modern players up with a playset that doesn't cost $12. It works mechanically with Theros and is weaker than Preordain to the point where it wouldn't likely be busted.
I had the same idea. It does seem to make sense since Theros block includes the scry mechanic. Also, a playset of Serum Visions will now cost you $22.80 on tcg mid lol. That's right, $22.80 for a playset of a common.
If they print a single good blue creature with CMC 4 or less I'm sure mono U will come back with a
splash.If you are talking about some blue one like in the style of Delver with counterspells and all that than the answer is probably no. Supreme Verdict says no. Just like it says no to Mono-Blue Devotion.
The second thing wrong is how decks run so many cards that don't make your opponent interact with you. Burn decks don't care what your doing, Thoughtseize doesnt care what your doing, Control decks dont care what your doing, hexproof doesnt care what your doing, etc.
I kind of wish that Thoughtseize wasnt reprinted since it has such a big grip on the format. I dont expect it to be dealt with until Theros rotates out but it warped the format pretty bad to where its either your playing a Thoughtseize deck, a Domri Rade deck, a Sphinx's Rev deck or a Master of Waves deck.
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
Agreed. All that Standard needs for Reanimator to be playable is a second reanimation spell that does not require you to sacrifice a creature or play white. I hope that it happens (it is one of the few things that could get me to play in Standard, along with some spells that make a Young Pyromancer/Spellheart Chimera deck viable).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Control decks by their very definition care about what you are doing and there are also the most interactive archetype in the game since all their cards are meant to interact with what your are doing.
I should have rephrased that. In this meta, most decks do not specifically care what your doing. Thoughtseize discards anything. You cannot play around Thoughtseize unless you just dont play cards or play out your whole hand. Same with burn spells and Sphinx's Rev. You dont have to interact with these cards, they just do what they do regardless of whatever your opponent is doing.
The format has gotten to where its Sphinx's Rev vs Thoughtseize with some minor other things going on. Its almost like Thoughtseize is needed to beat the Sphinxs Rev decks, but with Thoughtseize its a vicious cycle. The next block really needs to do some work since playing with Thoughtseize for another year and a half sounds pretty miserable.
Sphinx's Revelation can be beaten with counterspells and it's an expensive late-game spell anyway and while there is no way to interact with a turn 1 Thoughtseize you dont have to since it is still just a 1 for 1 trade at the expense of 2 life.
Thoughtseize is not broken or anything otherwise Wizard wouldnt have put it into Standard. I mean they think cards like Counterspell and Mana Leak are "too good" now. They have some ridiculous Standard about what is fair and what is not.
Well discard is fine, but being able to discard any card you want isnt fine. Thoughtseize isnt like Duress or Sin Collector in that you can play a certain deck to get around these cards. The main problem with Thoughtseize is that you just cant do anything about it.
I know Wizards hasnt made too many mistakes over the last few years, but Thoughtseize might be one of them. Its hard to say if thats really true since theres still two sets left until a new block comes out, but so far, its just not been good for the format.
Yay at least we have one person who agrees.
Oh god. And here I am hoping that when the next Standard block comes I won't be seeing mono-black everytime I go to FNM.
Thoughtseize is too powerful, if you're not playing black you're at a considerable disadvantage. I mean what is everyone else's turn 1 play? Judges Familiar or Elvish Mystic or Rakdos Cackler. Black's turn 1 play is comparably as strong as many deck's turn 3 plays, basically the card says "at the beginning of the game, pay 2 life, remove the single most powerful card in your opponent's hand from the game" because the vast majority of the time that discarded card won't impact the game from the graveyard.
Black has too many universally powerful cards. Thoughtseize hits everything and Hero's Downfall hit's everything, it's just not good design. And the fact that they're both in the same color just leads to a powerfully consistent manabase and safe access to 4 mutavault without worrying about color screw.
I think Mono Blue is a good example of a fair deck. They play a lot of mediocre cards in order to hit a critical mass. Synergy is fair, cards that are good in every match are not.
And yeah Thoughtseize is good against burn even. If you make them discard their ash zealot or Warleader's Helix you might have just won the game right there.
Oh if only Liliana of the Veil would still be legal or would be reprinted.
You could really curve out that way.
At least you will be able to do that in Modern.
Exactly, Supreme Verdict should've been 6 mana or more Wrath Of God cost 4 mana to play. How much is uncounterablity worth?
The greater issue with that deck is Izzet Guildgate and a lack of variety/power in Instants and Sorceries. The burn spells don't hit enough (mass of 2s from Izzet Charm, Magma Jet, Turn // Burn...but the most played creature in Standard is a 2/3), the deck has some tough mana requirements but needs man lands to fight control, and the overall power level of the non-creature side just isn't high enough. Steam Augury, Turn // Burn and Lightning Strike are 100% good enough (given how the format has shaped up), but from there it gets shakier with what you play. Also there is a notable lack of playable cantrips in Standard. It's hard to find room for Quicken (given how your burn spells have holes in them) even though Young Pyromancer/Chimera really need cantrips to get the ball rolling. Quicken is too narrow, and Inaction Injunction seems unplayable (if you mainboard it it's a solid brick against UW control, and it seems too low impact for sideboard play).
I could see a Serum Visions reprint as a possibility. It would fix this issue and also hook aspiring Modern players up with a playset that doesn't cost $12. It works mechanically with Theros and is weaker than Preordain to the point where it wouldn't likely be busted.
Also on topic I have a strong suspicion that a Prophetic Bolt reprint is coming. It is a flavor knockout with Keranos (God of prophecy and storms, Prophet Bolt, huuuh) while providing a strong but not broken RU Instant that gets an unoccupied spot on the curve. It also kills Blood Baron and Stormbreath Dragon, both of which are trolling the format right now with Pro White. UWR with Warleader's Helix isn't a thing because of those two cards, really, so Prophetic Bolt could open up the door to several deck styles. Namely, UWR Burn/Control (Ral Zarek, Lightning Strike, Aurelia's Fury, Helix, Prophetic Bolt, maybe Rev, maybe even Pyromancer's Gauntlet as a 1-of), UR Tempo, UR Burn, UR Control, etc.
Not to mention that Keranos might just be an Indestructible Guttersnipe esque card, likely with Scry triggers on all of your instants/sorceries. Much like how mill has been the UB "thing" since Dimir has been in office, I imagine the RU God will cater to the playstyle offered by Izzet, Steam Augury and Spellheart Chimera (even if the Izzet cards are largely situational and underpowered). I'll be a little disappointed if it's EDH fodder (we already have Melek for that, supreme disappointment) but even then the U/R Temple is still an exciting prospect.
A single blue mana obviously. The cost is completely reasonable. UW/x Control is the only deck that keeps Standard from turning into a "turn my creatures sideways" format. Wizards caters already enough to the creature crowd.
Literally everything in Theros block cares about creatures. Be it heroic, monstrosity, bestow, tribute and for the most part devotion since there are not many playable non-creature permanents, all the gods especially the BNG ones etc.
I had the same idea. It does seem to make sense since Theros block includes the scry mechanic. Also, a playset of Serum Visions will now cost you $22.80 on tcg mid lol. That's right, $22.80 for a playset of a common.