I've been using this in my mill deck and it's been pretty solid so far. It doesn't mill as much as Jace but there are two other advantages: it comes out much earlier, and using its primary mill ability gains loyalty where Jace's does not.
People tend to forget that even the best cards ever printed need a deck to go in. Is there a deck with blue and black that's popular right now that supports this card? There's esper control and esper humans. From what I can tell neither of those decks want that card. I could imagine a planeswalker midrange deck that might like that card, maybe with kiora and jace. But just looking at the card, a 3 mana planeswalker that does stuff seems like it could be good.
I like him in my MBD list. Against GR/mirror he helps me get a board presence out fast (or buys me a turn as they waste removal killing him) Against control he acts as a sphere rod making it more likely that my connections will stick.
People tend to forget that even the best cards ever printed need a deck to go in. Is there a deck with blue and black that's popular right now that supports this card? There's esper control and esper humans. From what I can tell neither of those decks want that card. I could imagine a planeswalker midrange deck that might like that card, maybe with kiora and jace. But just looking at the card, a 3 mana planeswalker that does stuff seems like it could be good.
I like him in my MBD list. Against GR/mirror he helps me get a board presence out fast (or buys me a turn as they waste removal killing him) Against control he acts as a sphere rod making it more likely that my connections will stick.
What do you remove from the deck for it?
-1 pack rat -1 connections. Its a meta choice. Ashiok is pretty awesome vs GR monsters (non-colossus variant) and shines in the mirror/control. Which are the top three decks at the moment.
On the other hand pack rats is OK vs GR monsters and medocier vs control while connections is medocier vs GR (but awesome vs control/mirror)
Drownyard vs ashiok in terms of cost is totally different. Ashiok costs less in terms of mana but playing it takes a turn. It does not take a turn to use drownyard. You just sit there and devote your game to control, then the little land will be used at the end of your opponent's turn whenever you have spare mana. You can also tandemize drownyard. Ashiok is fine if you're not being pressured or if you're pressuring them. That's when you start taking the stance of "removing ashiok is a removal not hitting my other stuff". When you're getting hammered in the face, Ashiok sitting in your hand, taking up space in your deck, looks much, much worse whereas drownyard looks a lot more like "I play my drownyard and keep doing what I was going to do anyway. Drownyard to a control deck is kind of like what mutavault is to an aggro deck, not very efficient persay but hard to deal with, ever present, and doesn't really force you to use up slots in your deck because it mixes in with your lands. Aggro decks see being able to squeeze in more than 4 more threats because they have mutavault. Control decks see being able to squeeze in x more hard to kill win conditions (and thus run fewer other win conditions in favor of more control) because they have drownyard. The two simply cannot be compared. Drownyard is a horrible card as far as efficiency goes and is far inferior to ashiok in that sense... but control didn't play drownyard for its efficiency in the first place. So Ashiok's efficiency doesn't matter unless its efficiency puts it over the top.
The thing new players don't understand is that decks are built with a certain amount of consistency. Milling your opponent shouldn't be looked at as "taking threats away" because it isn't. Sure he isn't going to draw that one stormbreath dragon... good thing he has 3 more left in the deck.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Consistency has nothing to do with that. Lol. Its called common sense. If milling your opponent was the same as taking threats away, then tome scour would be a 5 for 1 and everyone would play a 240 card battle of wits deck because it packs "over 100 threats". Milling is an eventuality type condition. Just as many times as you mill that SBD off the top of their library, you'll mill them and the next card they draw will be a stormbreath dragon. The only way the mill would change anything is if your opponent deliberately put something on the top of the library via a card or because you know what's there via a card like lantern of insight (not standard) or because they're playing courser of kruphix and you can plainly see what they'll draw next. Other than that, there's not a whole lot of fundamental difference between milling cards off the top of the library or the bottom. It doesn't change anything unless they run out or unless there's something specific that you milled out that they'd normally dig for. Ex, turn 3 Ashiok vs UW control, milling an aetherling, an elspeth and an elixir... but that is merely a matter of luck where the luck made the mill rather relevant. As noted, you're just as likely to miss those 3 and give them to the opponent earlier.
Ashiok very rarely dies to creatures at least until I start taking creatures from my opponent. They have so much loyalty and they are almost always in a all removal deck. Either you play them turn three or you wait until you are in control of the game and play him with protection up.
I do not even consider the mill relevant the vast majority of the time.. I want to steal creatures or exile hands.
UB can't kill enchantments and instantly loses to a resolved god and underworld connections I wish I had the answer to this huge problem.
I will admit, a turn 3 ashiok on the play vs aggro was never a let down for when I played with him. It usually follows with-
1) They EoT burn, or have a creature out and swing + burn to finish him and pass the turn tapped out, allowing me to set up next turn
2) Ashiok gains loyalty faster than they can bring it down and ends up functionally gaining me 7-10+ life (see sunk cost fallacy/bias)
3) I can at least get a decent defensive creature in play with the remaining loyalty.
EDIT: Did anyone watch the SCG Open this weekend? There was a match of BUG Midrange vs UW Control where he was able to get one of these on the battlefield and it stuck around for several turn, but did not impact the game at all. He ended up losing the game because it just doesn't provide any pressure so the UW Control deck could continue doing it's thing.
And if an agro deck is wasting burn and attack phases on this card, I think your opponent doesn't understand that his game plan is to lower your life total to 0 as fast as possible, and he is more then capable of ignoring this card to win the game.
So, bascially, Ashiok is not a big enough distraction to stop your opponent from charging on your after T3 ?
What if you build something around Ashiok, Phenax, God of Deception and some useful creature-protector to contain your opponent?
And you can always disrupt tempo with some timely counters and bounces of cards to their hands.
I think I will try to make this one work, instead of squeezing him into something already there not really fit for him.
I run x2 ashiok in my MBD build. It fits the deck, in my experience, quite nicely. I understand why people don't like him. But I think he works. It just takes a little finagling to work well.
I will admit, a turn 3 ashiok on the play vs aggro was never a let down for when I played with him. It usually follows with-
1) They EoT burn, or have a creature out and swing + burn to finish him and pass the turn tapped out, allowing me to set up next turn
2) Ashiok gains loyalty faster than they can bring it down and ends up functionally gaining me 7-10+ life (see sunk cost fallacy/bias)
3) I can at least get a decent defensive creature in play with the remaining loyalty.
Playing aggro, if I can't kill you before Ashiok reaches a point where s/he can actually do anything relevant, I probably didn't have a good chance of winning that game anyways.
I will admit, a turn 3 ashiok on the play vs aggro was never a let down for when I played with him. It usually follows with-
1) They EoT burn, or have a creature out and swing + burn to finish him and pass the turn tapped out, allowing me to set up next turn
2) Ashiok gains loyalty faster than they can bring it down and ends up functionally gaining me 7-10+ life (see sunk cost fallacy/bias)
3) I can at least get a decent defensive creature in play with the remaining loyalty.
Aggro decks have a bunch of X.2s. If you hit just one creature, you get an extra blocker. Which means you live another turn. Which is huge.
Playing aggro, if I can't kill you before Ashiok reaches a point where s/he can actually do anything relevant, I probably didn't have a good chance of winning that game anyways.
I will admit, a turn 3 ashiok on the play vs aggro was never a let down for when I played with him. It usually follows with-
1) They EoT burn, or have a creature out and swing + burn to finish him and pass the turn tapped out, allowing me to set up next turn
2) Ashiok gains loyalty faster than they can bring it down and ends up functionally gaining me 7-10+ life (see sunk cost fallacy/bias)
3) I can at least get a decent defensive creature in play with the remaining loyalty.
Playing aggro, if I can't kill you before Ashiok reaches a point where s/he can actually do anything relevant, I probably didn't have a good chance of winning that game anyways.
Turn 3: Play ashiok, +2, hit reckoner or some other 1/2 drop
Turn 4: Get a blocker to defend ashiok's remaining loyalty and gain board advantage (with counter magic/removal mana up as well)
1 turn to be relevant is pretty fast... Unless you are doing 20 damage by turn 4/5 consistently, in which case you need to tell me your deck now.
I will admit, a turn 3 ashiok on the play vs aggro was never a let down for when I played with him. It usually follows with-
1) They EoT burn, or have a creature out and swing + burn to finish him and pass the turn tapped out, allowing me to set up next turn
2) Ashiok gains loyalty faster than they can bring it down and ends up functionally gaining me 7-10+ life (see sunk cost fallacy/bias)
3) I can at least get a decent defensive creature in play with the remaining loyalty.
Playing aggro, if I can't kill you before Ashiok reaches a point where s/he can actually do anything relevant, I probably didn't have a good chance of winning that game anyways.
Turn 3: Play ashiok, +2, hit reckoner or some other 1/2 drop
Turn 4: Get a blocker to defend ashiok's remaining loyalty and gain board advantage (with counter magic/removal mana up as well)
1 turn to be relevant is pretty fast... Unless you are doing 20 damage by turn 4/5 consistently, in which case you need to tell me your deck now.
You forgot to mention: with 4 devour fleshes and 2 biles, chances are they don't have a creature (unless they had both a 1 and 2 drop) when you cast ashiok. Making it even better.
Lol. 4 fleshes. 2 biles. Chances are they don't have a creature? We are talking about aggro, right? The kinds of decks with more one drops than removal you listed? The chances that they'll have a 1 drop and a 2 drop are higher than the chances of you drawing a couple of those spells This of course doesn't make ashiok inherently bad but let's look at the absolute best scenario for you in that while dropping Ashiok turn 3 which takes a turn to do. Even on the play, you have a land. They have a creature. You kill it. They play another creature. You drop ashiok... so they have a creature and have a fair chance to have one with haste if they're red. On the draw, they go creature. You go land. They drop another creature and swing. You drop another land and kill one. They drop another creature and swing. You drop ashiok. They have 2 creatures and potential for a third with haste if they're red. The chances of aggro not having a one drop and a two drop are like the chances of control getting stuck on 2 land or a burn deck not drawing burns. It is a reasonable assumption that far more often than not, that's what will happen.
Lol. 4 fleshes. 2 biles. Chances are they don't have a creature? We are talking about aggro, right? The kinds of decks with more one drops than removal you listed? The chances that they'll have a 1 drop and a 2 drop are higher than the chances of you drawing a couple of those spells This of course doesn't make ashiok inherently bad but let's look at the absolute best scenario for you in that while dropping Ashiok turn 3 which takes a turn to do. Even on the play, you have a land. They have a creature. You kill it. They play another creature. You drop ashiok... so they have a creature and have a fair chance to have one with haste if they're red. On the draw, they go creature. You go land. They drop another creature and swing. You drop another land and kill one. They drop another creature and swing. You drop ashiok. They have 2 creatures and potential for a third with haste if they're red. The chances of aggro not having a one drop and a two drop are like the chances of control getting stuck on 2 land or a burn deck not drawing burns. It is a reasonable assumption that far more often than not, that's what will happen.
Do you swing at ashiok or me? If you swing at me, I get what ever ashiok found plus nightveil/desecration demon.
If you attack ashiok, I get another turn to cast merchant.
Depends on the board. I didn't specify details for whatever scenario. But I don't think I need to point out that if I think I can kill you, I can simply ignore ashiok as a turn 3 play that might put a blocker out turn 4. And if it can, I'll know which one it'll be. And if I couldn't kill you with Ashiok, how much would it have changed for me to kill you without ashiok? In what scenarios would you rather have Ashiok against aggro than another kill spell or a blocker and how common are they? How often will Ashiok vs kill spell/blocker see Ashiok make you win rather than lose or lose rather than win and how often for each? Ashiok is not a horrible card but you're pretending that aggro has to deal with Ashiok when it just doesn't most of the time. It lets you win... when you were already going to win anyway whether you played nightveil specter, a kill spell, or Ashiok. And it lets you more often lose against aggro than either of the other 2 choices because it is slower. Now to clarify, I'm not saying that it is taking up the slots that would be put towards specter necessarily but spaces that it does take up are probably going to come out of the space dedicated usually to kill spells.
Depends on the board. I didn't specify details for whatever scenario. But I don't think I need to point out that if I think I can kill you, I can simply ignore ashiok as a turn 3 play that might put a blocker out turn 4. And if it can, I'll know which one it'll be. And if I couldn't kill you with Ashiok, how much would it have changed for me to kill you without ashiok? In what scenarios would you rather have Ashiok against aggro than another kill spell or a blocker and how common are they? How often will Ashiok vs kill spell/blocker see Ashiok make you win rather than lose or lose rather than win and how often for each? Ashiok is not a horrible card but you're pretending that aggro has to deal with Ashiok when it just doesn't most of the time. It lets you win... when you were already going to win anyway whether you played nightveil specter, a kill spell, or Ashiok. And it lets you more often lose against aggro than either of the other 2 choices because it is slower. Now to clarify, I'm not saying that it is taking up the slots that would be put towards specter necessarily but spaces that it does take up are probably going to come out of the space dedicated usually to kill spells.
Also: post bored ashiok gets better with doomblades and drown in sorrow being added vs aggro.
He has saved me a couple games where I would have lost otherwise.
In other words, you win when you've stabilized... which you do regardless of Ashiok. When would you want ashiok instead of another doom blade or drown in sorrow vs aggro? What common scenario?
In other words, you win when you've stabilized... which you do regardless of Ashiok. When would you want ashiok instead of another doom blade or drown in sorrow vs aggro? What common scenario?
Ashiok aids in stabilizing. It gets you another blocker out sooner OR soaks damage. Additionally ashiok is also good vs the mirror and GR monsters (making it much more universal than an extra DiS or Doom Blade)
We can go over ashiok vs mid later where it has a slightly better case but let's get the aggro out of the way first. And DIS/doom blade mostly don't belong in the main board either barring being in a meta filled with the matchups that they're good in. So being universal is a moot point. Ashiok is pretty subpar against aggro and not so hot against control either. It isn't really a good mainboard choice in the sense that unless you want to try to mill out control in MBD or hope to snag an aetherling or something that control is for some reason not stopping (and if they can't, they were probably lost anyway) or try to play a card that operates later than aggro cares about, it doesn't belong mainboard either. Not to mention the fact that you're making unnecessary additions to your mana base to make Ashiok castable more reliably on turn 3.
A good aggro player asks himself "Will my position improve if I wait? Can it improve and what are the chances?". Most often, this leads to the conclusion that Ashiok is not worth hitting unless its something like a curve to fanatic aggro deck and the person with Ashiok flipped a reckoner and the aggro player doesn't think he can come out on top in a race. In which case, Ashiok needs to be hit for 3-5. But the time is rare that such a case wouldn't also be solved by a nightveil specter. And the times are not so rare that completely forgoing defense on turn 3 is going to cost you. Gets a blocker out sooner? What's your blocker? Gray merchant? Ashiok at best is slower than nightveil specter for getting a blocker out and equal in pace to desecration demon... but most likely smaller, less good in terms of devotion providing, and has a chance to miss or get something small... or get a firedrinker satyr if you're against red. Lol. An aggro player doesn't want a prolonged game against MBD. And unless you're playing islands, playing ashiok turn 3 comes in 3 different ways. One, you have a cipt land turn 1. Two, you have a cipt land turn 2 and thus can't play a removal spell turn 2. Three, you shocked yourself with watery grave at some point. The first scenario is obviously the best one but is a fraction of the representation of how Ashiok will hit turn 3 on average. Probably getting a blocker of some sort on turn 4 using your turn 3 play is dismal and is probably less an "aid in stabilizing" as, heck, tormented hero. On the play, its slow. On the draw, its nigh irrelevant to aggro, leaving them cheering inside if they see you play it turn 3.
We can go over ashiok vs mid later where it has a slightly better case but let's get the aggro out of the way first. And DIS/doom blade mostly don't belong in the main board either barring being in a meta filled with the matchups that they're good in. So being universal is a moot point. Ashiok is pretty subpar against aggro and not so hot against control either. It isn't really a good mainboard choice in the sense that unless you want to try to mill out control in MBD or hope to snag an aetherling or something that control is for some reason not stopping (and if they can't, they were probably lost anyway) or try to play a card that operates later than aggro cares about, it doesn't belong mainboard either. Not to mention the fact that you're making unnecessary additions to your mana base to make Ashiok castable more reliably on turn 3.
A good aggro player asks himself "Will my position improve if I wait? Can it improve and what are the chances?". Most often, this leads to the conclusion that Ashiok is not worth hitting unless its something like a curve to fanatic aggro deck and the person with Ashiok flipped a reckoner and the aggro player doesn't think he can come out on top in a race. In which case, Ashiok needs to be hit for 3-5. But the time is rare that such a case wouldn't also be solved by a nightveil specter. And the times are not so rare that completely forgoing defense on turn 3 is going to cost you. Gets a blocker out sooner? What's your blocker? Gray merchant? Ashiok at best is slower than nightveil specter for getting a blocker out and equal in pace to desecration demon... but most likely smaller, less good in terms of devotion providing, and has a chance to miss or get something small... or get a firedrinker satyr if you're against red. Lol. An aggro player doesn't want a prolonged game against MBD. And unless you're playing islands, playing ashiok turn 3 comes in 3 different ways. One, you have a cipt land turn 1. Two, you have a cipt land turn 2 and thus can't play a removal spell turn 2. Three, you shocked yourself with watery grave at some point. The first scenario is obviously the best one but is a fraction of the representation of how Ashiok will hit turn 3 on average. Probably getting a blocker of some sort on turn 4 using your turn 3 play is dismal and is probably less an "aid in stabilizing" as, heck, tormented hero. On the play, its slow. On the draw, its nigh irrelevant to aggro, leaving them cheering inside if they see you play it turn 3.
Ashiok is quite good vs control. They must answer it in 5 turns or they loose. Moreover the only way control can deal with it is to sphere it, which protects your connections (another card you need to win vs control).
I won a daily last night on MODO using ashiok vs mono red. It saved me game 3. and I was on the draw.
What do you remove from the deck for it?
-1 pack rat -1 connections. Its a meta choice. Ashiok is pretty awesome vs GR monsters (non-colossus variant) and shines in the mirror/control. Which are the top three decks at the moment.
On the other hand pack rats is OK vs GR monsters and medocier vs control while connections is medocier vs GR (but awesome vs control/mirror)
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I both like and use it but it's hard arguing for the validity of a card with as little competitive showing as the Nightmare Weaver.
I do not even consider the mill relevant the vast majority of the time.. I want to steal creatures or exile hands.
UB can't kill enchantments and instantly loses to a resolved god and underworld connections I wish I had the answer to this huge problem.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
1) They EoT burn, or have a creature out and swing + burn to finish him and pass the turn tapped out, allowing me to set up next turn
2) Ashiok gains loyalty faster than they can bring it down and ends up functionally gaining me 7-10+ life (see sunk cost fallacy/bias)
3) I can at least get a decent defensive creature in play with the remaining loyalty.
EDIT: Did anyone watch the SCG Open this weekend? There was a match of BUG Midrange vs UW Control where he was able to get one of these on the battlefield and it stuck around for several turn, but did not impact the game at all. He ended up losing the game because it just doesn't provide any pressure so the UW Control deck could continue doing it's thing.
And if an agro deck is wasting burn and attack phases on this card, I think your opponent doesn't understand that his game plan is to lower your life total to 0 as fast as possible, and he is more then capable of ignoring this card to win the game.
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What if you build something around Ashiok, Phenax, God of Deception and some useful creature-protector to contain your opponent?
And you can always disrupt tempo with some timely counters and bounces of cards to their hands.
I think I will try to make this one work, instead of squeezing him into something already there not really fit for him.
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Playing aggro, if I can't kill you before Ashiok reaches a point where s/he can actually do anything relevant, I probably didn't have a good chance of winning that game anyways.
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Turn 3: Play ashiok, +2, hit reckoner or some other 1/2 drop
Turn 4: Get a blocker to defend ashiok's remaining loyalty and gain board advantage (with counter magic/removal mana up as well)
1 turn to be relevant is pretty fast... Unless you are doing 20 damage by turn 4/5 consistently, in which case you need to tell me your deck now.
You forgot to mention: with 4 devour fleshes and 2 biles, chances are they don't have a creature (unless they had both a 1 and 2 drop) when you cast ashiok. Making it even better.
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Do you swing at ashiok or me? If you swing at me, I get what ever ashiok found plus nightveil/desecration demon.
If you attack ashiok, I get another turn to cast merchant.
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Also: post bored ashiok gets better with doomblades and drown in sorrow being added vs aggro.
He has saved me a couple games where I would have lost otherwise.
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Ashiok aids in stabilizing. It gets you another blocker out sooner OR soaks damage. Additionally ashiok is also good vs the mirror and GR monsters (making it much more universal than an extra DiS or Doom Blade)
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A good aggro player asks himself "Will my position improve if I wait? Can it improve and what are the chances?". Most often, this leads to the conclusion that Ashiok is not worth hitting unless its something like a curve to fanatic aggro deck and the person with Ashiok flipped a reckoner and the aggro player doesn't think he can come out on top in a race. In which case, Ashiok needs to be hit for 3-5. But the time is rare that such a case wouldn't also be solved by a nightveil specter. And the times are not so rare that completely forgoing defense on turn 3 is going to cost you. Gets a blocker out sooner? What's your blocker? Gray merchant? Ashiok at best is slower than nightveil specter for getting a blocker out and equal in pace to desecration demon... but most likely smaller, less good in terms of devotion providing, and has a chance to miss or get something small... or get a firedrinker satyr if you're against red. Lol. An aggro player doesn't want a prolonged game against MBD. And unless you're playing islands, playing ashiok turn 3 comes in 3 different ways. One, you have a cipt land turn 1. Two, you have a cipt land turn 2 and thus can't play a removal spell turn 2. Three, you shocked yourself with watery grave at some point. The first scenario is obviously the best one but is a fraction of the representation of how Ashiok will hit turn 3 on average. Probably getting a blocker of some sort on turn 4 using your turn 3 play is dismal and is probably less an "aid in stabilizing" as, heck, tormented hero. On the play, its slow. On the draw, its nigh irrelevant to aggro, leaving them cheering inside if they see you play it turn 3.
Ashiok is quite good vs control. They must answer it in 5 turns or they loose. Moreover the only way control can deal with it is to sphere it, which protects your connections (another card you need to win vs control).
I won a daily last night on MODO using ashiok vs mono red. It saved me game 3. and I was on the draw.
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