Honestly, I think that the only thing that makes pain seer even minorly viable is being a human. Lol. In other words, it has a prospective home to begin with. While the best thing blood scrivener ever had that I remember was a janky fun RB mostly burn deck prior to rotation that could use the draw power with things like faithless looting to dig and dangerous wager to refill. Whereas pain seer has a bit of a gap in a place that could want it.
How does being human help it? because Xanthrid Necromancer will turn it into a 2/2 Zombie Token if they are dumb enough to Kill a human before the Necromancer? The Blood Scrivener reference is using 2 different standard environments, so i don't really see the comparison. There are already successful decks that use Pain Seer.
Inspired is a very bad mechanic, and Pain Seer just isn't that great of a card. Way too much hype b/c of the Dark Confidant effect, but he just hasn't delivered. At the end of the day he's just a 2/2 bear who won't be netting you any advantage till Turn 4 in most decks. Not very good at all. You'd need a super dedicated deck to reap any benefits.
Unsurprisingly, the card is good enough to be Standard playable but not so good as to warp the format. Black aggressive decks became considerably more viable with it and Herald of Torment both seeing print and as a result the format widened (a good thing). People underestimating Pain Seer (and perhaps to an even greater extent, Herald of Torment) don't do themselves any favours.
Inspired is a good mechanic, there just isn't anything to show for it except a 2/2 with a Bob effect. A lot of Inspired abilities work great in limited, and MTG is being designed to try and supplement all formats and play styles. Could end up getting an Inspired card and/or cycle, in which something is incredibly useful somewhere. Dismissing Pain Seer as "hype because of the Dark Confidant effect" is like saying "people only like it because of what it does/is supposed to do". If Dark Confidant gets Shocked or killed in modern doesn't net you any benefits either. You can get the effect a turn earlier, sure, but as stated above, you have no way of dodging Dark Confidant if you get nearly any nonland and you have a low life total. Getting killed by Pain Seer is much less likely, as you can choose whether or not to use it. Springleaf Drum in the same standard ensures that as long as they are both left on the field, you get the benefits every turn you choose. Being a turn later than Bob's benefits is irrelevant in a standard with nearly no turn 1 plays, and Scrylands and Guildgates being played, in which slows the speed of play by at least a turn in most cases. I don't know what you mean by a Super dedicated deck when a playset of Springleaf Drum that has other creatures to tap for mana(as opposed to simply Pain Seer) is superdedicated. Plus, it's a creature, if all else fails you can tap it by attacking......thus the monoblack aggro build.
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Well, which competitively successful decks make use of pain seer without necromancer? I'm not really aware of one at least. And on the matter of springleaf drum, what deck that uses pain seer would want to use springleaf drum, a card that is effectively being played to help pain seer which wants to be in a low cmc deck (thus making it so you can't ramp into anything with drum without having other issues). That leaves you with either a drum that's a more than subpar card in absence of pain seer, forcing you to get multiple draws off of the seer before drum has even repaid itself for not being strong for you. What kind of deck would want this other than a dedicated attempt at pain seer tempo? And which of those (or some other kind of deck that would play these two in tandem that I am unaware of) is remotely competitive or successful? As far as I was aware, prettymuch anything with pain seer also came with xathrid necromancer and mogis' marauder.
Let me clarify that I'm not saying XanNecro doesn't add value to a human, that would be ridiculous, the word I didn't agree with was 'only'. Of course there are is a plethora of decks with XanNecri and Seer. I'm not seeing any more than 1 list showing both and Marauder,but rather Marauder or XanNecro. this Orzhov list uses Seer without either, and finished 17th at 2/8/14 Sunday Super Series. Additionally, I've been testing a Jund list on MWS with some success that I mentioned earlier, the only thing missing to better mimic modern Jund would be Maelstrom Pulse. I'm confident in it the format will steady out with less aggro when Journey Into Nyx drops. Especially with The GB Temple and God coming in that set. UB could have easily used him, in conjunction with Thassa's abilities, had Phenax not been mill. To sum up my point. Only isn't a viable word to describe when talking about viability. And we still need to complete the format still needs a third piece of the puzzle that is Theros block.
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My bad on the and vs or. On the matter of that orzhov list, though, I'm scratching my head a bit here. When I look at it, what I see is a curve up beatyface deck (with a pretty high curve too. If those lifegain engines don't go off, pain seer doesn't seem like it'd be a happy day in the slightest) with 4 pain seers and almost nothing to push them through though this perhaps is a happy coincidence with the fact that the curve is not exactly low and thus pain seer is going to flip a good amount of damage more than the average deck. So I wonder a bit where pain seer's potential is actually used there barring against, say, control. A pain seer that isn't getting to untap is a pain seer mostly unused.
Any statement I make is based on the current viability at this point in time with what we know. You can say that we don't know what the entire set will look like but I'm not looking at the future of the card in a vague way. I'm looking at the here and now. When discussing how you can use a card now, the future is rather irrelevant and what you have on hand is everything.
I think that there are more ways to use Pain Seer than people expect. On the other hand, it is very true thst it won't be as easy to use as people originally anticipated. I think the thing that is hurting it the most is the fact that it missed expectations so badly, not that it is necessarily a bad card. As people continue to test with it, I expect homes to be found for it. For instance, I built a relatively fun BW Enchant deck, and he performed admirably in it. The deck wasn't necessarily that good, but he was one of my favorite creatures to enchant, because once he got going, it was usually very difficult to turn him offline. And Bestow works well with his ability, since you get a better card than what you pay life for. I don't know if he'll be able to make it into the top tier decks, but I do expect to see him in a couple of the tier two decks during his time in standard.
My bad on the and vs or. On the matter of that orzhov list, though, I'm scratching my head a bit here. When I look at it, what I see is a curve up beatyface deck (with a pretty high curve too. If those lifegain engines don't go off, pain seer doesn't seem like it'd be a happy day in the slightest) with 4 pain seers and almost nothing to push them through though this perhaps is a happy coincidence with the fact that the curve is not exactly low and thus pain seer is going to flip a good amount of damage more than the average deck. So I wonder a bit where pain seer's potential is actually used there barring against, say, control. A pain seer that isn't getting to untap is a pain seer mostly unused.
I guess, if nothing else, he draws removal away from your big guy/s. That doesn't exactly support my point, though. lol
Any statement I make is based on the current viability at this point in time with what we know. You can say that we don't know what the entire set will look like but I'm not looking at the future of the card in a vague way. I'm looking at the here and now. When discussing how you can use a card now, the future is rather irrelevant and what you have on hand is everything.
I can respect and agree with that.
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Nate, may I draw your attention to HERE. Pain Seer has done work for me in more than one match. He scares me, but the most I'm losing is 3 life, and that 3 life is a game changer (Herald of Torment).
Seems pretty solid. It's using Marauder, as mentioned above. Anything specific I'm looking at?
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Oh, yeah. There's a couple lists that I've seen that look a lot like that. Good deal.
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With how slow standard is right now getting value off of a pain seer on turn 4 is totally adequate. Hell I see people who get benefit off having a soldier of the pantheon on the field while they have an archangel out and their opponent wants to cast a multicolored spell but is holding it back.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
I've already seen a couple rakdos builds, dreadbore, devour, doom blade, bile blight, magma jet, lightning strike, shock, ultimate price all give you all kinds of cheap and good removal in those colors.
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With how slow standard is right now getting value off of a pain seer on turn 4 is totally adequate. Hell I see people who get benefit off having a soldier of the pantheon on the field while they have an archangel out and their opponent wants to cast a multicolored spell but is holding it back.
Against which decks?
UW/x Control and Mono-Black just blow him up and GR/Jund Monsters has big enough blockers that kill him by that time.
With how slow standard is right now getting value off of a pain seer on turn 4 is totally adequate. Hell I see people who get benefit off having a soldier of the pantheon on the field while they have an archangel out and their opponent wants to cast a multicolored spell but is holding it back.
Against which decks?
UW/x Control and Mono-Black just blow him up and GR/Jund Monsters has big enough blockers that kill him by that time.
U/W/x and Mono-black just blow him up? Cool I'm totally fine with that.
GR/Jund Monsters don't get to block because we either blow them up, go over the top, or intimidate through.
Mono black aggro is a legitimate deck whether you want to believe it is or not.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Do you play Mtgo? Because it seems like you know what a good deck MB Aggro is and how prevalent it is online.
Pain Seer was written off too early. It is a good card. There are so few quality (playable) 2 drops in Black, but Pain is for sure a good playable 2 caster. HE MUST be dealt with.
Mono Black (the regular, cast nothing until turn 3) is dead to MB Agro.
Monsters usually only has Mystic or Carytid to block him. You still get to draw cards.
When the big monsters come down, they are usually attacking and not left back as blockers Pain Seer has to be dealt with and the easiest wins have been when people ignore him. Mono Black (old build) is a dog to Mono Black Aggro. If they're killing Pain Seers, the game is half won. If they aren't, it's fully won.
With how slow standard is right now getting value off of a pain seer on turn 4 is totally adequate. Hell I see people who get benefit off having a soldier of the pantheon on the field while they have an archangel out and their opponent wants to cast a multicolored spell but is holding it back.
Against which decks?
UW/x Control and Mono-Black just blow him up and GR/Jund Monsters has big enough blockers that kill him by that time.
U/W/x and Mono-black just blow him up? Cool I'm totally fine with that.
GR/Jund Monsters don't get to block because we either blow them up, go over the top, or intimidate through.
Mono black aggro is a legitimate deck whether you want to believe it is or not.
That's not a personal attack against you or anyone playing the deck but you hear many people hyping their decks, it being so good and having good matchups against the top decks etc. but when asked about results they have nothing to show for it and then they dont respond anymore and disappear.
That is why I only care about results.
When Mono-Black aggro is consistently seen at the top tables in tournaments then I acknowledge the deck and believe you.
Until then I stand by my evaluation that Pain Seer is mediocre/garbage.
I don't believe that mono black aggro is a bad deck (I personally prefer rakdos) but I don't particularly think it is amazing either. I feel it is mostly geared against midrange. Against aggro as a generality, I'd give it a slight negative tilt on account that in a race war, they'll be more efficient and especially pain seer will be a bit less helpful. 50/50 to flip 2+ is a little hurtful when you're not just pressuring them. Against control, both main and side lack xathrid necromancer (fairly relevant in the other matchups too) in a deck that's already got 18 humans and almost zero wipe recovery that's not "playing a desecration demon and hoping they don't spot remove it". Necromancer won't exactly stop the opponent from winning but it does provide a significant enough annoyance coupled with longevity. And thus regardless, I'd assign a moderate disadvantage against control as to them, you're just a slightly slower weenie deck.
I like pain seer.. because two drops in a mono blackgro deck are scarce as well as card draw in an agro deck is even scarcer.
The alternative that I'm testing is using Blood Scrivener (which has one of the best flavor texts I've ever read outside of Raging Goblin).
@Galerion: Being only results oriented is a particularly narrow way to look at cards. If I remember correctly, multiple articles have been written about how much of a trap that view point actually can be. But the card has put up decent results online and in real life at adequately large tournaments, so the results are there to show for it. My previous summation stands: good enough to see play, not so good that the format has to change because of it.
@Galerion: Being only results oriented is a particularly narrow way to look at cards. If I remember correctly, multiple articles have been written about how much of a trap that view point actually can be. But the card has put up decent results online and in real life at adequately large tournaments, so the results are there to show for it. My previous summation stands: good enough to see play, not so good that the format has to change because of it.
So like 99% of Mtg cards that actually see any standard play, I mean you could make the same statement about a much more popular card like Mutavault. I seriously doubt Mutavault is warping the meta otherwise we would see more direct answers to the card like Eye Gouge popping up in SB's.
People do run answers to mutavault. It's just not as narrow as Eye Gouge, its things like Doom Blade and Last Breath
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How does being human help it? because Xanthrid Necromancer will turn it into a 2/2 Zombie Token if they are dumb enough to Kill a human before the Necromancer? The Blood Scrivener reference is using 2 different standard environments, so i don't really see the comparison. There are already successful decks that use Pain Seer.
I'll reference:
Inspired is a good mechanic, there just isn't anything to show for it except a 2/2 with a Bob effect. A lot of Inspired abilities work great in limited, and MTG is being designed to try and supplement all formats and play styles. Could end up getting an Inspired card and/or cycle, in which something is incredibly useful somewhere. Dismissing Pain Seer as "hype because of the Dark Confidant effect" is like saying "people only like it because of what it does/is supposed to do". If Dark Confidant gets Shocked or killed in modern doesn't net you any benefits either. You can get the effect a turn earlier, sure, but as stated above, you have no way of dodging Dark Confidant if you get nearly any nonland and you have a low life total. Getting killed by Pain Seer is much less likely, as you can choose whether or not to use it. Springleaf Drum in the same standard ensures that as long as they are both left on the field, you get the benefits every turn you choose. Being a turn later than Bob's benefits is irrelevant in a standard with nearly no turn 1 plays, and Scrylands and Guildgates being played, in which slows the speed of play by at least a turn in most cases. I don't know what you mean by a Super dedicated deck when a playset of Springleaf Drum that has other creatures to tap for mana(as opposed to simply Pain Seer) is superdedicated. Plus, it's a creature, if all else fails you can tap it by attacking......thus the monoblack aggro build.
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Any statement I make is based on the current viability at this point in time with what we know. You can say that we don't know what the entire set will look like but I'm not looking at the future of the card in a vague way. I'm looking at the here and now. When discussing how you can use a card now, the future is rather irrelevant and what you have on hand is everything.
I guess, if nothing else, he draws removal away from your big guy/s. That doesn't exactly support my point, though. lol
I can respect and agree with that.
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4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Temple of Enlightenment
11x Plains
3x Island
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4x Dryad Militant
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Judge's Familiar
4x Imposing Sovereign
3x Precinct Captain
4x Banisher Priest
4x Lyev Skyknight
4x Brave the Elements
Enchantments
4x Detention Sphere
Legendary Enchantment Artifacts
3x Spear of Heliod
3x Negate
4x Arrest
3x Gainsay
2x Levina of the Tenth
3x God's Willing
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Against which decks?
UW/x Control and Mono-Black just blow him up and GR/Jund Monsters has big enough blockers that kill him by that time.
U/W/x and Mono-black just blow him up? Cool I'm totally fine with that.
GR/Jund Monsters don't get to block because we either blow them up, go over the top, or intimidate through.
Mono black aggro is a legitimate deck whether you want to believe it is or not.
Pain Seer was written off too early. It is a good card. There are so few quality (playable) 2 drops in Black, but Pain is for sure a good playable 2 caster. HE MUST be dealt with.
Mono Black (the regular, cast nothing until turn 3) is dead to MB Agro.
When the big monsters come down, they are usually attacking and not left back as blockers Pain Seer has to be dealt with and the easiest wins have been when people ignore him. Mono Black (old build) is a dog to Mono Black Aggro. If they're killing Pain Seers, the game is half won. If they aren't, it's fully won.
That's not a personal attack against you or anyone playing the deck but you hear many people hyping their decks, it being so good and having good matchups against the top decks etc. but when asked about results they have nothing to show for it and then they dont respond anymore and disappear.
That is why I only care about results.
When Mono-Black aggro is consistently seen at the top tables in tournaments then I acknowledge the deck and believe you.
Until then I stand by my evaluation that Pain Seer is mediocre/garbage.
The alternative that I'm testing is using Blood Scrivener (which has one of the best flavor texts I've ever read outside of Raging Goblin).
So like 99% of Mtg cards that actually see any standard play, I mean you could make the same statement about a much more popular card like Mutavault. I seriously doubt Mutavault is warping the meta otherwise we would see more direct answers to the card like Eye Gouge popping up in SB's.
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