I'm not entirely convinced, since the leylines themselves give you only one mana each per creature, and don't work when your opponent removes your creatures, while the Nykthos is giving you much more regardless of what you're playing with, regularly netting you 3-5 mana without effort. I think that Nykthos could be a commonly abused card moving forward, and I think that without Nykthos the leyline wouldn't be played at all; and the fact that a monoblack devotion deck even exists, and only exists because of the existence of the land, is kind of a red flag to me.
Monoblack devotion exists because Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a house, tbh. I still think you should strongly consider turn count, as well. 7 mana available on turn 2 is astronomically more broken than 6 mana on turn 3. It's another ballpark. A turn 2 and a turn 3 format are very, very different from one another.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yep, I know weird picks. But this format is quickly pricing me out of it.
Odd that you'd criticize the banning of non-threats and proceed to put Supreme Verdict and Thoughtseize on your personal ban-wishlist. Targeted discard and powerful sweepers are far more important to maintaining a healthy format than any protective spell.
Actually, I'd argue that Veil of Summer isn't really an answer at all, at least not in the classical sense of the two cards I mentioned above. If I were to set definitions for threats as cards that win games and answers as cards that stop threats (the two are obviously not mutually exclusive), then protective spells are more threat than answer precisely because they exist primarily to stop answers. Modern Infect sure as heck doesn't run Vines of Vastwood to stop threats, and neither do decks that run Veil. I mean, how many times in pioneer has Veil been cast to stop an actual threat instead of an answer?
I guess veil of summer is like gitaxian probe... it makes it such that it is now safe to cast your stuff.. which is good for weak decks to use but make strong decks even stronger. It is more a threat than an answer in that sense
I like the current pace of banning, no maniac random bannings, but swift heavy bannings when justified... i like this pruning approach.
Yep, I know weird picks. But this format is quickly pricing me out of it.
Odd that you'd criticize the banning of non-threats and proceed to put Supreme Verdict and Thoughtseize on your personal ban-wishlist. Targeted discard and powerful sweepers are far more important to maintaining a healthy format than any protective spell.
Actually, I'd argue that Veil of Summer isn't really an answer at all, at least not in the classical sense of the two cards I mentioned above. If I were to set definitions for threats as cards that win games and answers as cards that stop threats (the two are obviously not mutually exclusive), then protective spells are more threat than answer precisely because they exist primarily to stop answers. Modern Infect sure as heck doesn't run Vines of Vastwood to stop threats, and neither do decks that run Veil. I mean, how many times in pioneer has Veil been cast to stop an actual threat instead of an answer?
Thoughtseize is an aggressive threat concealed as an answer. So is Supreme Verdict. They aren't narrow at all and are undercosted for what you get in return. They advance their lines of play. To me they are threats not answers even if they may appear to be an "answer". They relegate any other spell that does similar things at a more reasonable cost to the dumpster pile. They will only serve to create a more narrow metagame eventually. More same cards, more same netdecks, more same goodstuff piles.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This is your interpretation of the card, not reality. A threat can win a game. An answer helps you not lose a game.
Wraths are cards aggro decks are prepared and equipped to fight. It's there since Magic's inception. Verdict is only uncounterable, so you can make your creatures indestructible, exile it with Spell Queller, bounce it with Unsubstantiate, play 4 Smuggler's Copters in your creature deck, or do as we always do : don't overextend to the BF. There's absolutely no reason to ban the card !
Thoughtseize is another story : it's a proactive play, not a reactive one. It can see play in the same decks you play Gitaxian Probe : in aggro and combo decks.
The bad thing I see with this card is that it destroys glass-canon decks game 1, it's a bit sad for the sake of variety. However, blitz aggro decks laugh at the card, decks that play Once upon a Time and various card selection spells too. As long as those decks are viable, TS doesn't seem too obnoxious.
I mean, how many times in pioneer has Veil been cast to stop an actual threat instead of an answer?
That's not the role of the card anyway. Blossoming Defense, Gods Willing, those cards are great and have never been too criticized or in a ban discussion ever. Not a threat nor an answer card, Veil is a protection / pump spell like you said, that happens to cantrip. End of story.
The reason of its banning is not what it does (not directly at least), but what decks it helps, i.e. some green decks at the top of the metagame. I personnally have no clue whether this ban is good or not though. I don't really care, it's one SB card in the pool to me.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
This is your interpretation of the card, not reality.
Who interprets reality? You?
We agree to disagree and move on. Say your piece but I won't be responding.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
You describe yourself and your choices as "weird" and set your opinion as irrefutable (you "won't be responding").
You're right, those 2 cards are undercosted, but that's not an argument that turns an answer into a threat. It makes absolutely no sense ! If you want to convince / makes sense to anybody, you better say those spells are too powerful & lead to a more stale metagame - exactly as you did - and stop there. No need to confuse people with a new definition that states "white is black". Especially when you eventually use that wrong definition to support the need for a ban. I read your post as "Today's scoop ! Those answers are actually threats, and since Wizards need to ban threats and not answers, Verdict and TS are definitely worth a ban regarding their power level !"
What is my opinion are my arguments against these bans, I explained them in my previous post, and we can indeed disagree on them.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Oko and OUAT got the ban in Standard. Will we see the same in Pioneer later today?
On my personal list I'd like to see Field of the Dead get the axe as well.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Oko and OUAT got the ban in Standard. Will we see the same in Pioneer later today?
On my personal list I'd like to see Field of the Dead get the axe as well.
I agree, FOTD is a cancer.
It is, it needs to go. I see it as public enemy #1 right now.
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():
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Agreed, but for the time being it needs a ban, bring it back if they EVER reprint those two.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Just need to reprint Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter.
Field of Ruin is in the format, no need to reprint a land with a worse effect. Alpine Moon is also available, and anti-tokens cards, and anti-search cards, etc...
Plus the card is less represented than Nykthos, didn't put up incredible results (at least nothing overwhelming), it's a 2-of in ramp archetypes... I assume it's miserable to play against. Maybe we have to gear up against it, dedicate slots in the SB more than we'd like ?
Private Mod Note
():
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was personally hoping for a heavier hand in this format. Time will tell I suppose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was personally hoping for a heavier hand in this format. Time will tell I suppose.
As they said, I think they are going to be, but a number of pro-written articles, tweets, and posts have said that they want some more data before randomly banning cards.
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Monoblack devotion exists because Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a house, tbh. I still think you should strongly consider turn count, as well. 7 mana available on turn 2 is astronomically more broken than 6 mana on turn 3. It's another ballpark. A turn 2 and a turn 3 format are very, very different from one another.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/november-11-2019-pioneer-banned-announcement
I want heavy bans in Pioneer. Yes I'm weird. But they need to ban problematic threat cards not problematic answer cards.
I'd love to see the following bans.
Arclight Phoenix
Supreme Verdict
Teferi, Time Raveler
Once Upon a Time
Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Thoughtseize
Yep, I know weird picks. But this format is quickly pricing me out of it.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Odd that you'd criticize the banning of non-threats and proceed to put Supreme Verdict and Thoughtseize on your personal ban-wishlist. Targeted discard and powerful sweepers are far more important to maintaining a healthy format than any protective spell.
Actually, I'd argue that Veil of Summer isn't really an answer at all, at least not in the classical sense of the two cards I mentioned above. If I were to set definitions for threats as cards that win games and answers as cards that stop threats (the two are obviously not mutually exclusive), then protective spells are more threat than answer precisely because they exist primarily to stop answers. Modern Infect sure as heck doesn't run Vines of Vastwood to stop threats, and neither do decks that run Veil. I mean, how many times in pioneer has Veil been cast to stop an actual threat instead of an answer?
I like the current pace of banning, no maniac random bannings, but swift heavy bannings when justified... i like this pruning approach.
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Thoughtseize is an aggressive threat concealed as an answer. So is Supreme Verdict. They aren't narrow at all and are undercosted for what you get in return. They advance their lines of play. To me they are threats not answers even if they may appear to be an "answer". They relegate any other spell that does similar things at a more reasonable cost to the dumpster pile. They will only serve to create a more narrow metagame eventually. More same cards, more same netdecks, more same goodstuff piles.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This is your interpretation of the card, not reality. A threat can win a game. An answer helps you not lose a game.
Wraths are cards aggro decks are prepared and equipped to fight. It's there since Magic's inception. Verdict is only uncounterable, so you can make your creatures indestructible, exile it with Spell Queller, bounce it with Unsubstantiate, play 4 Smuggler's Copters in your creature deck, or do as we always do : don't overextend to the BF. There's absolutely no reason to ban the card !
Thoughtseize is another story : it's a proactive play, not a reactive one. It can see play in the same decks you play Gitaxian Probe : in aggro and combo decks.
The bad thing I see with this card is that it destroys glass-canon decks game 1, it's a bit sad for the sake of variety. However, blitz aggro decks laugh at the card, decks that play Once upon a Time and various card selection spells too. As long as those decks are viable, TS doesn't seem too obnoxious.
That's not the role of the card anyway. Blossoming Defense, Gods Willing, those cards are great and have never been too criticized or in a ban discussion ever. Not a threat nor an answer card, Veil is a protection / pump spell like you said, that happens to cantrip. End of story.
The reason of its banning is not what it does (not directly at least), but what decks it helps, i.e. some green decks at the top of the metagame. I personnally have no clue whether this ban is good or not though. I don't really care, it's one SB card in the pool to me.
Who interprets reality? You?
We agree to disagree and move on. Say your piece but I won't be responding.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
You're right, those 2 cards are undercosted, but that's not an argument that turns an answer into a threat. It makes absolutely no sense ! If you want to convince / makes sense to anybody, you better say those spells are too powerful & lead to a more stale metagame - exactly as you did - and stop there. No need to confuse people with a new definition that states "white is black". Especially when you eventually use that wrong definition to support the need for a ban. I read your post as "Today's scoop ! Those answers are actually threats, and since Wizards need to ban threats and not answers, Verdict and TS are definitely worth a ban regarding their power level !"
What is my opinion are my arguments against these bans, I explained them in my previous post, and we can indeed disagree on them.
On my personal list I'd like to see Field of the Dead get the axe as well.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I agree, FOTD is a cancer.
Modern:
It is, it needs to go. I see it as public enemy #1 right now.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Just need to reprint Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter.
Agreed, but for the time being it needs a ban, bring it back if they EVER reprint those two.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Field of Ruin is in the format, no need to reprint a land with a worse effect. Alpine Moon is also available, and anti-tokens cards, and anti-search cards, etc...
Plus the card is less represented than Nykthos, didn't put up incredible results (at least nothing overwhelming), it's a 2-of in ramp archetypes... I assume it's miserable to play against. Maybe we have to gear up against it, dedicate slots in the SB more than we'd like ?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/november-25-2019-pioneer-banned-announcement
I was personally hoping for a heavier hand in this format. Time will tell I suppose.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
As they said, I think they are going to be, but a number of pro-written articles, tweets, and posts have said that they want some more data before randomly banning cards.