I like probe it feels like mini Ultimatum, seriously its fine 2-4 sorcery cards.
Calcite snapper has been decent for me, you pay 3 mana once thats it, and he is a good blocker. Im sure swarm is good but just cant bring myself to play another color and spend 20 mana to get my finisher online.
I did this a couple of years ago, in Skred Teachings (which was URbg with a focus on counters, red removal, and then splashing B for Teachings FB and G for the endgame and Ancient Grudge). Brainstorm was simultaneously the best card in the deck and the worst card in the deck. It was great for fixing draws, but it was terrible in the sense that the deck had 8 fetches and 4 Brainstorm and had serious tempo issues just trying to set up. Now, in a less greedy build, this drastically changes. Or, in a build with a different draw suite (Krosan Tusker or Sprouting Vines, anybody?), this changes. Or if you're playing other shuffle effects, like the Panoramas or landcycling cards, this changes. But with 8 Terramorphic/Evolving, I can attest to the fact that Brainstorm gets really awkward in early-game situations.
I think if you can make Brainstorm work, it will be unbelievable with Mystical Teachings. But if you don't plan it out carefully, it can be really awkward.
How do you feel about that deck right now?
I found your list a little over a year ago and have been playing it since then (thanks for posting it).
I made some changes like cutting white completely (started to use Crypt Incursion as lifegain, which was white main function), reducing the number of spells that cost double blue mana adding some Prohibits, added Mysteries of the Deep, cut Havenwood Wurm, and some other minor tweaks like those.
Lately, I've been trying a removal package more focused on burn and with some Edicts, because I was having trouble with some decks who are a little too fast.
Boulderfall seems like it could be a nice Teaching target, if could be reliable casted.
I'm also trying a straight UB list, which started with 4 Innocent Blood and 2 Evincar's Justice (because I was curious about how those cards would perform) but turned into a Teachings list with those 6 sorceries.
How do you feel about that deck right now?
I found your list a little over a year ago and have been playing it since then (thanks for posting it).
I made some changes like cutting white completely (started to use Crypt Incursion as lifegain, which was white main function), reducing the number of spells that cost double blue mana adding some Prohibits, added Mysteries of the Deep, cut Havenwood Wurm, and some other minor tweaks like those.
Lately, I've been trying a removal package more focused on burn and with some Edicts, because I was having trouble with some decks who are a little too fast.
I played a lot of different variations on that deck, especially since I played it over the course of a couple years (on and off). But I never really was happy with Skred Teachings because there were always a couple match-ups that just couldn't be beaten. Even in a format without storm and Invigorate, you still just lose to some decks because you're playing so many taplands and 4 different colors of basics and a number of Shimmering Grottos. So honestly, I would rather just play a 2-3 color deck and be able to cast my spells than to jam together a manabase to fuel a greedy 4c deck. Even playing 3 colors is pretty tough on your mana, but trying to splash a little green in a Grixis build...in Pauper, good luck with that.
I want to make Teachings work. More than that, I just want to make a classical Permission deck work. But it's going to take some time, as this is a new metagame and the format is extremely deep.
More than that, I just want to make a classical Permission deck work.
This.
INS, what's your take on the MUC lists that have been going 3-1/4-0 in the dailies lately? It runs Delver of Secrets, but I really don't consider it a Delver deck because because it only runs about half the number of creatures in stock Delver lists (~10 as opposed to ~20, with no Faeries or Ninjas), about twice the amount of counter magic, and a draw package that includes either Think Twice or Accumulated Knowledge, Fathom Seer, Oona's Grace, and a fair number cantrips. Seems like a more classic MUC list as opposed to an aggro- or tempo-control strategy, would you consider it a permission list?
I played a lot of different variations on that deck, especially since I played it over the course of a couple years (on and off). But I never really was happy with Skred Teachings because there were always a couple match-ups that just couldn't be beaten. Even in a format without storm and Invigorate, you still just lose to some decks because you're playing so many taplands and 4 different colors of basics and a number of Shimmering Grottos. So honestly, I would rather just play a 2-3 color deck and be able to cast my spells than to jam together a manabase to fuel a greedy 4c deck. Even playing 3 colors is pretty tough on your mana, but trying to splash a little green in a Grixis build...in Pauper, good luck with that.
I want to make Teachings work. More than that, I just want to make a classical Permission deck work. But it's going to take some time, as this is a new metagame and the format is extremely deep.
Yeah, I agree. The manabase was always a little awkward and made me shape the deck around it to better afford the downsides.
It became a little better when I changed the removal suite to burn spells, reducing the impact of the manabase in the time to get the removal online, and upped Prohibit to 4, reducing the pressure in the manabase to get to double blue mana (which would in turn cut the access to removal), but it still means a lot of work just to have the correct mana.
That said, I really like the deck and still play it from time to time
Regarding a classical permission deck, I really believe a UB version can work.
Maybe something like
~25 lands
~8 Draw Spells (Think Twice/Accumulated Knowledge, Teachings, maybe even Mysteries of the Deep)
~10-14 Counters (Counterspell, Prohibit, Exclude, maybe Rewind)
~8-10Removal (Lots of options here, Disfigure, Doom Blade, Diabolic Edict, Echoing Decay, Snuff Out, Innocent Blood and a few more conditional ones like Ghastly Demise/Tragic Slip)
And a way to actually win the game
It has cheap and effective removal for more aggressive decks, and can play Evincar's Justice. This covers Goblins, WW, Stompy and most of the decks in the format.
It can play a lot of edict effects against Hexproof and even Kiln Fiend.
There's also a lot of quality Counterspells for decks based in Ghostly Flicker, Control Mirrors,...
Sideboard cards like Duress, Hydroblast, Crypt Incursion, extra counters and removal, etc
That's a lot of tools and the deck seems able to adapt to how the meta evolves.
The deck feels like its close, the power level of most of our cards is pretty insane. I just don't have much time to play right now and honestly I am way more of a deck tinkerer than tourney grinder. Because I am always making experimental control decks I am terrified of just hemoraging money playing vs Infinate burn decks.
Can some one give a picture of the new meta and we discourse some good tools to fight it?
The deck feels like its close, the power level of most of our cards is pretty insane. I just don't have much time to play right now and honestly I am way more of a deck tinkerer than tourney grinder. Because I am always making experimental control decks I am terrified of just hemoraging money playing vs Infinate burn decks.
Can some one give a picture of the new meta and we discourse some good tools to fight it?
Looks like it's (in no particular order):
Affinity
Mono-U Delver (which is a spectrum of variants)
Eye Candy (the best version being the one with Brainstorm)
MBC (a number of variants for this, too)
Stompy
Elves
Tron (GRu with a low land count and Mulldrifters seems to be the list that's working thus far)
There are some others, but that's a start. I don't know if Aura Hexproof is still a deck in this metagame, or if Goblins is a deck in this metagame, or whatever...there are a lot of potential decks that may or may not be pushed out of the meta by other stuff. Bottomline: the metagame is diverse. Good luck.
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What does everyone think about Brainstorm+Sprouting Vines? I've been pondering over this engine for a while, recently--but I don't own the BSs online to test it. I figure there's a lot of potential there, for a number of reasons:
1. Sprouting Vines is always a 2-for-1 on your opponent's turn if he plays a spell. It's generally at least a 2-for-1.
2. Sprouting Vines does something I always want my draw spells to do for me early on: find me some damn land drops.
3. Brainstorm can contribute to storm count, which makes for a bigger Vines EoT. Then that Vines shuffles away 2 cards you hid with BS--most likely a pair of basics.
4. In theory, you could Vines for a few, get 2 lands, cast a BS, put those 2 lands back, and then search for them again with Vines right then and there.
5. Oona's Grace seems pretty good with Sprouting Vines, on a number of levels. It also wouldn't be unreasonable to think about things like Careful Study or Faithless Looting, or even just some other retrace card.
6. If you draw Brainstorm without Vines, it's still a good card. If you draw Vines without Brainstorm, it's still a good card. Together they're awesome, but alone they're still good.
It's just something I've been thinking about. I also think it's interesting that, on 4 mana, you can Rewind a spell, cast a Brainstorm, and then Sprouting Vines for 4 lands (or potentially more). What else draws that many cards, in this format? And opposing countermagic doesn't stop Sprouting Vines...it actually just feeds it.
Food for thought. Maybe when I get paid, I'll pick up a set of Brainstorms and try this out.
On Vines: it's probably too cute honestly. Worth a shot, like the Brainstorm / Squadron Hawk deck Goliat2 has been running, but probably still too cute.
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stompy is there, but important to note declining...
tron is not a deck.. five showings total since the ban of which there are three different versions
elves not showing much and also declining
I also HATE delver, I don't want to rely on a 1/1 that has to be in my opener to win the game.
Well I kinda just like Krosan Tusker compared to vines as it is also an instant draw two or finisher. Flooding out is actualy an easy way to lose and I dont want something that only draws me lands. If only doomblade was a green card haha. I think we have enough CA in UB.
The main meta question I want to know is should we run Crypt incursion main and also wail of the Nim or Justice main.
stompy is there, but important to note declining...
tron is not a deck.. five showings total since the ban of which there are three different versions
elves not showing much and also declining
I agree. Like I said, no particular order. I was just listing some decks.
I hate that deck, and I abhor Delver of Secrets. Sorry.
The thing that intrigues me about the deck isn't the presence of Delver in the list; it's the counter and draw package. I think the fact that a creature-light deck running a lot of instants and card draw is performing well is promising for the type of deck we're discussing in this thread. There's even a Delver-less MUC list that went 3-1 the other day (as played by gnarlesbury):
For the purpose of context, there was a lot of White Weenie, Affinity, and MBC at 4-0 and 3-1 in this event.
I'm not proposing we move to straight mono-blue, but it can't hurt to look at these lists, determine what's working for them, and then determining if there's anything they're doing that could benefit us.
What I dislike most about those lists aren't the Delvers; I don't like playing with Daze, Gush, and/or Deprive in control decks. I obviously love those cards in a fish/aggro deck or in a combo deck, but in control I think it's ass-backwards.
@Just Sin: I found your article to be a great read. I understand the need to comment on actually played/common UB archetypes, but I wonder if some of the basic synergies you describe aren't a bit misplaced. Lemme explain:
You say that DimirTrinkets is a black slanted deck that capitalizes on self sac dudes to enable Tragic Slip, whereas (Dimir) Teachings is a blue slanted deck pairing ETB dudes and the Ninja engine with a solid selection of instants.
Now, wouldn't it make more sense to put Trinket Mage into a shell revolving around blue and the Ninja engine, seeing as Trinket Mage IS a blue ETB-creature? You splash black for Executioner's Capsule and can use the mage for mana fixing as well. Black could also add more useful ETB-dudes without BB in costs (such as Ravenous Rats). Basically your Teachings shell but without the teachings, less variety in instants but Capsule to compensate, and a few less SGO to compensate for the added 3-drop in Mage. You can't capitalize on Sylvok Lifestaff as much, but I reckon it's still good in your 75 at least.
Similarly, isn't a black Tragic Slip shell the perfect place to splash blue for Mystical Teachings and Mulldrifter? No longer must you run a full set of Slips and rather mediocre cards like Fume Spitter to enable them. No, you run it as a 2-of and take advantage of it opportunisticallly but consistently, or when you have Mulldrifter/Augur of Skulls that you want to use. It's also easy to run Undying Evil as a reliable singleton here without getting useless copies, and it's very easy to include a few Mnemonic Walls with a tutorable Ghostly Flicker for the Chittering Rats engine - now more easy to use since you're black heavy rather than blue heavy.
I'd also like to suggest a hybrid version with Vedalken Aethermage as the glue binding it all together. Consider this package of 4 tutor effects that would be such a deck's core:
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vedalken Aethermage
The idea here is that teachings can find aethermage, which in turn has relevant targets in Trinket Mage, Archaeomancer, Sea Gate Oracle and Nameless Inversion. Each tutor is self sufficient, but you can also chain tutors if you need something very specific late game, meaning you can get away with mostly singletons in tutor targets without really reducing consistency. A single Mystical Teachings would be enough to assemble a Ghostly Flicker engine, for instance (given time and mana). Such a hybrid list could also greatly benefit from both Sylvok Lifestaff and Snuff Out. You'd have to run a fairly even mana base to support both Archeomancer and Chittering Rats, but I think it could be done, especially if UU isn't needed until later (this means eschewing Counterspell or running it as a singleton, though). Of course, the ninja engine would work great here too - I suppose you'd have to choose between ninjas or Augur of Skulls, and if Tragic Slip is run only as a singleton, I think I'd rather go with ninjas.
Looking forward to your thoughts on this, and a potential "Mystical Trinkets" deck.
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@Just Sin: I found your article to be a great read. I understand the need to comment on actually played/common UB archetypes, but I wonder if some of the basic synergies you describe aren't a bit misplaced. Lemme explain:
You say that DimirTrinkets is a black slanted deck that capitalizes on self sac dudes to enable Tragic Slip, whereas (Dimir) Teachings is a blue slanted deck pairing ETB dudes and the Ninja engine with a solid selection of instants.
Now, wouldn't it make more sense to put Trinket Mage into a shell revolving around blue and the Ninja engine, seeing as Trinket Mage IS a blue ETB-creature? You splash black for Executioner's Capsule and can use the mage for mana fixing as well. Black could also add more useful ETB-dudes without BB in costs (such as Ravenous Rats). Basically your Teachings shell but without the teachings, less variety in instants but Capsule to compensate, and a few less SGO to compensate for the added 3-drop in Mage. You can't capitalize on Sylvok Lifestaff as much, but I reckon it's still good in your 75 at least.
Similarly, isn't a black Tragic Slip shell the perfect place to splash blue for Mystical Teachings and Mulldrifter? No longer must you run a full set of Slips and rather mediocre cards like Fume Spitter to enable them. No, you run it as a 2-of and take advantage of it opportunisticallly but consistently, or when you have Mulldrifter/Augur of Skulls that you want to use. It's also easy to run Undying Evil as a reliable singleton here without getting useless copies, and it's very easy to include a few Mnemonic Walls with a tutorable Ghostly Flicker for the Chittering Rats engine - now more easy to use since you're black heavy rather than blue heavy.
Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed the read, however just want to be clear my descriptions were just that, describing the decks as they are built and not to discuss if that was the right or wrong way.
That being said I can see where it is an great discussion you're bringing in here. I actually have realized I also underplayed the focus on the sacrifice abilities in the deck especially when it comes to adding in Grim Harvest. Between Crypt Rats and Fume Spitter and Augur of Skulls and Mulldrifter the deck becomes quite hard to deal with as it gets more mana on the field. There's a couple ideas here so hopefully I don't forget anything lol I think there is some benefit definitely to the use of bounce effects in some aspects, but a few things come to mind. First being where do you find room? I guess in some cases dropping down Chittering Rats could be beneficial for it. Some lists run Chittering Rats and I think that would be my most likely candidate to find room for a ninja if I wanted to go that way, but when you drop the rats you're looking at only Mulldrifter and Trinket Mage as your enters effects, which reduces the power minimally. More importantly to me is what I deem to be a lack of need to reuse Trinket Mage, which would leave only Mulldrifter to be bounced at a high cost. While the fetching of trinkets is nice you're looking at only three non-land targets in the main of any DimirTrinket deck. These are easily found by the three main Trinket Mages and the deck does a decent amount of card drawing, which means in some cases you don't even need that.
I think the ninjas and teachings are interesting approaches, but I think you touch on what it would need, being something new. I don't think there would be much success to be had from trying to wedge in those types of pieces into a deck that's already pretty solid in its 75. What we've been seeing, and it may be overlooked because of what results we are getting from Wizards is that Trinket Mage has been finding a lot of use in several places including Tron. I think its finally coming into its own for its ability to land fetch probably more than anything else. Maybe there could be a place for it in a deck with teachings, but consider that every artifact that you add to the deck to find with Trinket Mage is one less instant for Mystical Teachings thus making it weaker.
My sideboard was random extra removal, discard, and one mana conditional counters; I won't really get into that right now. My goal was to see how well the draw package and mana base worked, as well as just play a few games (I've been busy with school and haven't played any real Magic since the middle of August). I decided to play with a bunch of one-ofs just to see if I could maximize the toolbox ability that Teachings provides.
My first match was against Hexproof. I remember I had Island, Swamp, Force Spike, Diabolic Edict, Teachings in my opening hand on the play, so I kept and countered his T1 Boggle, Edicted his Ledgewalker on T3 in response to Rancor, and then started chaining Teachings into counter spells to keep his creatures from resolving. He conceded shortly thereafter. For the second match, I boarded in more edict effects and kept the board clear for the first few turns, but then I hit mana flood and lost when I couldn't find a draw spell or more removal. The third match was the opposite; I got to 2 lands (Island, Swamp), and then died with a bunch of Counterspells and an Evincar's Justice in my hand and no way to cast them.
Since I felt like I died to my mana base in that third game, I swapped the Terramorphics/Wilds for 4 Dimir Guildgates and 2 Dimir Aqueducts, and then swapped the Brainstorms for Preordains, since I wasn't going to have as many shuffle effects to clear the top of my deck. My second match was against a UB Ghostly Flicker deck that ran Rats, Mulldrifters, Halimar Depths and Bojuka Bogs, but no Mnemonic Wall or Archaeomancers that I ever saw. I don't remember all the details, but I did get to Force Spike a creature on the draw, and then won in a very long match where Errant Ephemeron raced a Gray Merchant of Asphodel and a Ravenous Rats. Crypt Incursion for 18 was awesome. My opponent quit after one game because of the time it took.
First impressions: Preordain with the "duals" felt better for me than Brainstorm with the Terramorphics, if only because a Dimir Guildgate on T1 into Island on T2 gave me the option of using either a Counterspell or a removal on T2. Aqueducts, however, have always felt awkward to me. Granted, this is a small sample size and bears much more testing. Force Spike in my opening hand felt awesome every time, and it even did some work in a stack war later in the game vs UB Flicker. Counterspell, Rewind, and Exclude were all awesome. Soul Manipulation and Faerie Trickery both felt weak, but I think Trickery still has a place due to all of the graveyard shenanigans that occur in Pauper. Soul Manipulation can probably become another Exclude, this deck doesn't have a lot of creatures to return from the graveyard, so the cantrip on Exclude is going to be better most of the time. I never saw Repeal or needed to tutor for it, and I never got a chance to cast Evincar's Justice, so the jury's still out there. I'll probably keep each of those as a 1-of and keep testing. I also felt like the draw package worked even against heavy discard and graveyard hate.
Cool thanx for your notes, I will get back to this deck eventually, just playing Theros drafts atm. Verry glad to know force spike worked out! I think it is probably key in this deck and is more useful for longer than it seems.
I think 2 Errant Ephemeron is a very dangerous endgame plan. They're not very difficult to kill, red decks can blast them, they aren't recurrable in that list, and even when they're suspended you can get blown out by being forced into a counter war on your turn (upkeep, in combat, or EoT) to protect one, then it just dies on your opponent's next main phase when he untaps and has a giant mana advantage.
I think 2 Errant Ephemeron is a very dangerous endgame plan. They're not very difficult to kill, red decks can blast them, they aren't recurrable in that list, and even when they're suspended you can get blown out by being forced into a counter war on your turn (upkeep, in combat, or EoT) to protect one, then it just dies on your opponent's next main phase when he untaps and has a giant mana advantage.
I like the creature, but it needs help.
I agree with this. I'm not completely enamored with EE, but I chose it over other options because I like the suspend and the evasion, it can play defense, and it's within the primary color of the deck. EE is susceptible to removal or counters, but at least suspend gives you a decent chance to contest it.
My original thought on running Soul Manipulation had been to bring back a countered/removed Ephemeron, but it never came up in testing; maybe it requires more. But maybe Grim Harvest would be better in that regard.
I think it's generally safer to end the game with some kind of engine, rather than just a creature. For example, Sprout Swarm is basically immune to removal; over time you're going to run your opponent out of removal until you just beat him to death with a bunch of 1/1s. Or you could play recursion and creatures, like what you were saying about Grim Harvest--just know that there are removal spells which don't necessarily kill your stuff, and Grim Harvest doesn't recur itself when your EEs get countered. There's also stuff you could do with Battlefield Scrounger and some form of recursion (or just a second Scrounger), where you get down to the last few cards in your deck and you just start stacking it however you want. They keep killing your scrounger, but you keep putting the recursion right on the bottom of your deck and drawing it again to replay the scrounger. You get the idea: use a loop and close it out like a combo deck, if you can. That's a lot safer than hoping 2-4 threats can survive in a format full of removal.
Another option, still, is available: you could shred your opponent's hand to clean him out of answers before running out your finishers. For example, with a Forbidden Alchemy build, you can run a set of Mind Burst, develop your position as you chain-draw flashback spells through your deck, and then use a big Mind Burst or two to clear your opponent's hand out before playing a threat or two. Then you only need to hold onto a couple counterspells to deal with topdecks, and you don't have to leave anywhere near as much mana open (as you would if you had to hold up like 3-4 counters to protect your small number of finishers). This is also a potential option for a non-alchemy build, if you play something like Last Rites...which also can do that same job.
However you choose to do things, one Soul Manipulation isn't going to cut it. Put a lockdown into your deck, if you want my advice.
I think it's generally safer to end the game with some kind of engine, rather than just a creature. For example, Sprout Swarm is basically immune to removal; over time you're going to run your opponent out of removal until you just beat him to death with a bunch of 1/1s. Or you could play recursion and creatures, like what you were saying about Grim Harvest--just know that there are removal spells which don't necessarily kill your stuff, and Grim Harvest doesn't recur itself when your EEs get countered. There's also stuff you could do with Battlefield Scrounger and some form of recursion (or just a second Scrounger), where you get down to the last few cards in your deck and you just start stacking it however you want. They keep killing your scrounger, but you keep putting the recursion right on the bottom of your deck and drawing it again to replay the scrounger. You get the idea: use a loop and close it out like a combo deck, if you can. That's a lot safer than hoping 2-4 threats can survive in a format full of removal.
Another option, still, is available: you could shred your opponent's hand to clean him out of answers before running out your finishers. For example, with a Forbidden Alchemy build, you can run a set of Mind Burst, develop your position as you chain-draw flashback spells through your deck, and then use a big Mind Burst or two to clear your opponent's hand out before playing a threat or two. Then you only need to hold onto a couple counterspells to deal with topdecks, and you don't have to leave anywhere near as much mana open (as you would if you had to hold up like 3-4 counters to protect your small number of finishers). This is also a potential option for a non-alchemy build, if you play something like Last Rites...which also can do that same job.
However you choose to do things, one Soul Manipulation isn't going to cut it. Put a lockdown into your deck, if you want my advice.
I love the idea of an engine to lock out the game, but hate the thought of a three color deck in Pauper. If you're going to rely heavily on a green engine, I'd just run your GB deck.
Not a toolbox deck like past Teachings decks of other formats, nor much of a permission deck, for that matter. But he got 12 points with it, so he might be on to something with this build.
to me that's UB Control, if you refer to every deck with a Mystical Teachings in it as "Teachings Control" you would have included things like IzzetPost, to me a Teachings deck has a heavier focus on the use of the card
Calcite snapper has been decent for me, you pay 3 mana once thats it, and he is a good blocker. Im sure swarm is good but just cant bring myself to play another color and spend 20 mana to get my finisher online.
How do you feel about that deck right now?
I found your list a little over a year ago and have been playing it since then (thanks for posting it).
I made some changes like cutting white completely (started to use Crypt Incursion as lifegain, which was white main function), reducing the number of spells that cost double blue mana adding some Prohibits, added Mysteries of the Deep, cut Havenwood Wurm, and some other minor tweaks like those.
Lately, I've been trying a removal package more focused on burn and with some Edicts, because I was having trouble with some decks who are a little too fast.
Boulderfall seems like it could be a nice Teaching target, if could be reliable casted.
I'm also trying a straight UB list, which started with 4 Innocent Blood and 2 Evincar's Justice (because I was curious about how those cards would perform) but turned into a Teachings list with those 6 sorceries.
I played a lot of different variations on that deck, especially since I played it over the course of a couple years (on and off). But I never really was happy with Skred Teachings because there were always a couple match-ups that just couldn't be beaten. Even in a format without storm and Invigorate, you still just lose to some decks because you're playing so many taplands and 4 different colors of basics and a number of Shimmering Grottos. So honestly, I would rather just play a 2-3 color deck and be able to cast my spells than to jam together a manabase to fuel a greedy 4c deck. Even playing 3 colors is pretty tough on your mana, but trying to splash a little green in a Grixis build...in Pauper, good luck with that.
I want to make Teachings work. More than that, I just want to make a classical Permission deck work. But it's going to take some time, as this is a new metagame and the format is extremely deep.
This.
INS, what's your take on the MUC lists that have been going 3-1/4-0 in the dailies lately? It runs Delver of Secrets, but I really don't consider it a Delver deck because because it only runs about half the number of creatures in stock Delver lists (~10 as opposed to ~20, with no Faeries or Ninjas), about twice the amount of counter magic, and a draw package that includes either Think Twice or Accumulated Knowledge, Fathom Seer, Oona's Grace, and a fair number cantrips. Seems like a more classic MUC list as opposed to an aggro- or tempo-control strategy, would you consider it a permission list?
Yeah, I agree. The manabase was always a little awkward and made me shape the deck around it to better afford the downsides.
It became a little better when I changed the removal suite to burn spells, reducing the impact of the manabase in the time to get the removal online, and upped Prohibit to 4, reducing the pressure in the manabase to get to double blue mana (which would in turn cut the access to removal), but it still means a lot of work just to have the correct mana.
That said, I really like the deck and still play it from time to time
Regarding a classical permission deck, I really believe a UB version can work.
Maybe something like
~25 lands
~8 Draw Spells (Think Twice/Accumulated Knowledge, Teachings, maybe even Mysteries of the Deep)
~10-14 Counters (Counterspell, Prohibit, Exclude, maybe Rewind)
~8-10Removal (Lots of options here, Disfigure, Doom Blade, Diabolic Edict, Echoing Decay, Snuff Out, Innocent Blood and a few more conditional ones like Ghastly Demise/Tragic Slip)
And a way to actually win the game
It has cheap and effective removal for more aggressive decks, and can play Evincar's Justice. This covers Goblins, WW, Stompy and most of the decks in the format.
It can play a lot of edict effects against Hexproof and even Kiln Fiend.
There's also a lot of quality Counterspells for decks based in Ghostly Flicker, Control Mirrors,...
Sideboard cards like Duress, Hydroblast, Crypt Incursion, extra counters and removal, etc
That's a lot of tools and the deck seems able to adapt to how the meta evolves.
Can some one give a picture of the new meta and we discourse some good tools to fight it?
I hate that deck, and I abhor Delver of Secrets. Sorry.
Looks like it's (in no particular order):
Affinity
Mono-U Delver (which is a spectrum of variants)
Eye Candy (the best version being the one with Brainstorm)
MBC (a number of variants for this, too)
Stompy
Elves
Tron (GRu with a low land count and Mulldrifters seems to be the list that's working thus far)
There are some others, but that's a start. I don't know if Aura Hexproof is still a deck in this metagame, or if Goblins is a deck in this metagame, or whatever...there are a lot of potential decks that may or may not be pushed out of the meta by other stuff. Bottomline: the metagame is diverse. Good luck.
---------------
What does everyone think about Brainstorm+Sprouting Vines? I've been pondering over this engine for a while, recently--but I don't own the BSs online to test it. I figure there's a lot of potential there, for a number of reasons:
1. Sprouting Vines is always a 2-for-1 on your opponent's turn if he plays a spell. It's generally at least a 2-for-1.
2. Sprouting Vines does something I always want my draw spells to do for me early on: find me some damn land drops.
3. Brainstorm can contribute to storm count, which makes for a bigger Vines EoT. Then that Vines shuffles away 2 cards you hid with BS--most likely a pair of basics.
4. In theory, you could Vines for a few, get 2 lands, cast a BS, put those 2 lands back, and then search for them again with Vines right then and there.
5. Oona's Grace seems pretty good with Sprouting Vines, on a number of levels. It also wouldn't be unreasonable to think about things like Careful Study or Faithless Looting, or even just some other retrace card.
6. If you draw Brainstorm without Vines, it's still a good card. If you draw Vines without Brainstorm, it's still a good card. Together they're awesome, but alone they're still good.
It's just something I've been thinking about. I also think it's interesting that, on 4 mana, you can Rewind a spell, cast a Brainstorm, and then Sprouting Vines for 4 lands (or potentially more). What else draws that many cards, in this format? And opposing countermagic doesn't stop Sprouting Vines...it actually just feeds it.
Food for thought. Maybe when I get paid, I'll pick up a set of Brainstorms and try this out.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
stompy is there, but important to note declining...
tron is not a deck.. five showings total since the ban of which there are three different versions
elves not showing much and also declining
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Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
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Well I kinda just like Krosan Tusker compared to vines as it is also an instant draw two or finisher. Flooding out is actualy an easy way to lose and I dont want something that only draws me lands. If only doomblade was a green card haha. I think we have enough CA in UB.
The main meta question I want to know is should we run Crypt incursion main and also wail of the Nim or Justice main.
I agree. Like I said, no particular order. I was just listing some decks.
The thing that intrigues me about the deck isn't the presence of Delver in the list; it's the counter and draw package. I think the fact that a creature-light deck running a lot of instants and card draw is performing well is promising for the type of deck we're discussing in this thread. There's even a Delver-less MUC list that went 3-1 the other day (as played by gnarlesbury):
4 Quicksand
3 Errant Ephemeron
3 Omenspeaker
4 Spire Golem
1 Deprive
2 Exclude
2 Gush
3 Miscalculation
1 Oona's Grace
3 Piracy Charm
4 Preordain
2 Prohibit
2 Repeal
3 Think Twice
For the purpose of context, there was a lot of White Weenie, Affinity, and MBC at 4-0 and 3-1 in this event.
I'm not proposing we move to straight mono-blue, but it can't hurt to look at these lists, determine what's working for them, and then determining if there's anything they're doing that could benefit us.
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UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
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You say that DimirTrinkets is a black slanted deck that capitalizes on self sac dudes to enable Tragic Slip, whereas (Dimir) Teachings is a blue slanted deck pairing ETB dudes and the Ninja engine with a solid selection of instants.
Now, wouldn't it make more sense to put Trinket Mage into a shell revolving around blue and the Ninja engine, seeing as Trinket Mage IS a blue ETB-creature? You splash black for Executioner's Capsule and can use the mage for mana fixing as well. Black could also add more useful ETB-dudes without BB in costs (such as Ravenous Rats). Basically your Teachings shell but without the teachings, less variety in instants but Capsule to compensate, and a few less SGO to compensate for the added 3-drop in Mage. You can't capitalize on Sylvok Lifestaff as much, but I reckon it's still good in your 75 at least.
Similarly, isn't a black Tragic Slip shell the perfect place to splash blue for Mystical Teachings and Mulldrifter? No longer must you run a full set of Slips and rather mediocre cards like Fume Spitter to enable them. No, you run it as a 2-of and take advantage of it opportunisticallly but consistently, or when you have Mulldrifter/Augur of Skulls that you want to use. It's also easy to run Undying Evil as a reliable singleton here without getting useless copies, and it's very easy to include a few Mnemonic Walls with a tutorable Ghostly Flicker for the Chittering Rats engine - now more easy to use since you're black heavy rather than blue heavy.
I'd also like to suggest a hybrid version with Vedalken Aethermage as the glue binding it all together. Consider this package of 4 tutor effects that would be such a deck's core:
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vedalken Aethermage
The idea here is that teachings can find aethermage, which in turn has relevant targets in Trinket Mage, Archaeomancer, Sea Gate Oracle and Nameless Inversion. Each tutor is self sufficient, but you can also chain tutors if you need something very specific late game, meaning you can get away with mostly singletons in tutor targets without really reducing consistency. A single Mystical Teachings would be enough to assemble a Ghostly Flicker engine, for instance (given time and mana). Such a hybrid list could also greatly benefit from both Sylvok Lifestaff and Snuff Out. You'd have to run a fairly even mana base to support both Archeomancer and Chittering Rats, but I think it could be done, especially if UU isn't needed until later (this means eschewing Counterspell or running it as a singleton, though). Of course, the ninja engine would work great here too - I suppose you'd have to choose between ninjas or Augur of Skulls, and if Tragic Slip is run only as a singleton, I think I'd rather go with ninjas.
Looking forward to your thoughts on this, and a potential "Mystical Trinkets" deck.
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Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed the read, however just want to be clear my descriptions were just that, describing the decks as they are built and not to discuss if that was the right or wrong way.
That being said I can see where it is an great discussion you're bringing in here. I actually have realized I also underplayed the focus on the sacrifice abilities in the deck especially when it comes to adding in Grim Harvest. Between Crypt Rats and Fume Spitter and Augur of Skulls and Mulldrifter the deck becomes quite hard to deal with as it gets more mana on the field. There's a couple ideas here so hopefully I don't forget anything lol I think there is some benefit definitely to the use of bounce effects in some aspects, but a few things come to mind. First being where do you find room? I guess in some cases dropping down Chittering Rats could be beneficial for it. Some lists run Chittering Rats and I think that would be my most likely candidate to find room for a ninja if I wanted to go that way, but when you drop the rats you're looking at only Mulldrifter and Trinket Mage as your enters effects, which reduces the power minimally. More importantly to me is what I deem to be a lack of need to reuse Trinket Mage, which would leave only Mulldrifter to be bounced at a high cost. While the fetching of trinkets is nice you're looking at only three non-land targets in the main of any DimirTrinket deck. These are easily found by the three main Trinket Mages and the deck does a decent amount of card drawing, which means in some cases you don't even need that.
I think the ninjas and teachings are interesting approaches, but I think you touch on what it would need, being something new. I don't think there would be much success to be had from trying to wedge in those types of pieces into a deck that's already pretty solid in its 75. What we've been seeing, and it may be overlooked because of what results we are getting from Wizards is that Trinket Mage has been finding a lot of use in several places including Tron. I think its finally coming into its own for its ability to land fetch probably more than anything else. Maybe there could be a place for it in a deck with teachings, but consider that every artifact that you add to the deck to find with Trinket Mage is one less instant for Mystical Teachings thus making it weaker.
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BPoxB
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4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Mystical Teachings
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
1 Rewind
1 Exclude
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Repeal
1 Agony Warp
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Crypt Incursion
13 Island
6 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Evolving Wilds
My sideboard was random extra removal, discard, and one mana conditional counters; I won't really get into that right now. My goal was to see how well the draw package and mana base worked, as well as just play a few games (I've been busy with school and haven't played any real Magic since the middle of August). I decided to play with a bunch of one-ofs just to see if I could maximize the toolbox ability that Teachings provides.
My first match was against Hexproof. I remember I had Island, Swamp, Force Spike, Diabolic Edict, Teachings in my opening hand on the play, so I kept and countered his T1 Boggle, Edicted his Ledgewalker on T3 in response to Rancor, and then started chaining Teachings into counter spells to keep his creatures from resolving. He conceded shortly thereafter. For the second match, I boarded in more edict effects and kept the board clear for the first few turns, but then I hit mana flood and lost when I couldn't find a draw spell or more removal. The third match was the opposite; I got to 2 lands (Island, Swamp), and then died with a bunch of Counterspells and an Evincar's Justice in my hand and no way to cast them.
Since I felt like I died to my mana base in that third game, I swapped the Terramorphics/Wilds for 4 Dimir Guildgates and 2 Dimir Aqueducts, and then swapped the Brainstorms for Preordains, since I wasn't going to have as many shuffle effects to clear the top of my deck. My second match was against a UB Ghostly Flicker deck that ran Rats, Mulldrifters, Halimar Depths and Bojuka Bogs, but no Mnemonic Wall or Archaeomancers that I ever saw. I don't remember all the details, but I did get to Force Spike a creature on the draw, and then won in a very long match where Errant Ephemeron raced a Gray Merchant of Asphodel and a Ravenous Rats. Crypt Incursion for 18 was awesome. My opponent quit after one game because of the time it took.
First impressions: Preordain with the "duals" felt better for me than Brainstorm with the Terramorphics, if only because a Dimir Guildgate on T1 into Island on T2 gave me the option of using either a Counterspell or a removal on T2. Aqueducts, however, have always felt awkward to me. Granted, this is a small sample size and bears much more testing. Force Spike in my opening hand felt awesome every time, and it even did some work in a stack war later in the game vs UB Flicker. Counterspell, Rewind, and Exclude were all awesome. Soul Manipulation and Faerie Trickery both felt weak, but I think Trickery still has a place due to all of the graveyard shenanigans that occur in Pauper. Soul Manipulation can probably become another Exclude, this deck doesn't have a lot of creatures to return from the graveyard, so the cantrip on Exclude is going to be better most of the time. I never saw Repeal or needed to tutor for it, and I never got a chance to cast Evincar's Justice, so the jury's still out there. I'll probably keep each of those as a 1-of and keep testing. I also felt like the draw package worked even against heavy discard and graveyard hate.
Happy to hear anyone's feedback.
I like the creature, but it needs help.
I agree with this. I'm not completely enamored with EE, but I chose it over other options because I like the suspend and the evasion, it can play defense, and it's within the primary color of the deck. EE is susceptible to removal or counters, but at least suspend gives you a decent chance to contest it.
My original thought on running Soul Manipulation had been to bring back a countered/removed Ephemeron, but it never came up in testing; maybe it requires more. But maybe Grim Harvest would be better in that regard.
Another option, still, is available: you could shred your opponent's hand to clean him out of answers before running out your finishers. For example, with a Forbidden Alchemy build, you can run a set of Mind Burst, develop your position as you chain-draw flashback spells through your deck, and then use a big Mind Burst or two to clear your opponent's hand out before playing a threat or two. Then you only need to hold onto a couple counterspells to deal with topdecks, and you don't have to leave anywhere near as much mana open (as you would if you had to hold up like 3-4 counters to protect your small number of finishers). This is also a potential option for a non-alchemy build, if you play something like Last Rites...which also can do that same job.
However you choose to do things, one Soul Manipulation isn't going to cut it. Put a lockdown into your deck, if you want my advice.
I love the idea of an engine to lock out the game, but hate the thought of a three color deck in Pauper. If you're going to rely heavily on a green engine, I'd just run your GB deck.
4 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Dimir Guildgate
10 Island
7 Swamp
Creatures (10)
1 Crypt Rats
1 Mnemonic Wall
4 Mulldrifter
3 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Smokespew Invoker
Removal (10)
1 Agony Warp
1 Capsize
2 Dead Weight
1 Devour Flesh
2 Disfigure
1 Eyeblight's Ending
2 Snuff Out
4 Counterspell
1 Grim Harvest
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Preordain
4 Pristine Talisman
2 Crypt Rats
2 Devour Flesh
1 Distress
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Teachings
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Reality Acid
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Spire Monitor
Not a toolbox deck like past Teachings decks of other formats, nor much of a permission deck, for that matter. But he got 12 points with it, so he might be on to something with this build.
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
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