I haven't had a chance to try out Prowess since it came out. I like the idea behind Jeskai Sage especially since you can draw off it dying. Windscout is interesting as well, but the 3 cmc is a big turn off. My main problem is what to cut to fit in a new card? We already have a lot of solid cards and our creatures are already very impressive and synergistic. Maybe some lists can drop 1 or 2 Ninjas to find room for the Sage?
I agree that I think prowess would synergize pretty well with our deck, but I am not sure if any of prowess cards we can run would actually be better than anything we have already. our creature are good usually because they do something non-combat related that makes them noteworthy, and the prowess guys end up being just beaters. the only cards we run in the raw beater department are spire golem and delver, and I don't think I'd ever cut either of those for the current prowess guys. If monestary swiftspear was a common I would definately consider it though.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I don't see impulse in many lists. Anyone care to explain why? I can be pretty dense haha...so I may be missing something obvious.
...Also, I'm really scared to run under 18 lands! lol I see lists running as few as 15 lands, and that makes me super nervous!
I want to try 2 evolving wilds out for my brainstorms/ponders/treasure cruises.
mainly, impulse is 2 mana, and we absolutely do not want to be spending all our mana cantriping when we could have a counterspell. That coupled with the fact that it doesn't let you put the cards back on top means you just get to draw the best card, not rig the top of your deck to force delver flips, which is the main reason we like cards like brainstorm and ponder.
We run aggressive mana bases because we don't need a lot of lands. we are A-ok seeing only two lands a whole game. 18 lands is fine, but if you go that high up in land count, you should have some techy lands in there like quicksand or desert. These provide the high mana count you like with the ability to not be complete turd draws when you get them later in the game. and they are also your only source of hard removal in this deck.
Take evolving wilds out, please for the love of god. In case you haven't heard, card thinning is mathematically disproven. There's an article going into great detail as to why, but basically the odds it does *technically* alter are so astronomically low that it offers no noticeable advantage. That coupled with the fact that evolving wilds is essentially a "ETB tapped" island, you just set yourself back a turn in a deck that specifically revolves around not doing just that. you absolutely need to hit 2 mana turn 2 or you will lose often. This deck's usual plan is to play a turn 1 delver, turn 2 cloud of faeries, then sit back on a counterspell or sprite. The first 3 turns are the most critical to your success, and in a tempo deck like this you really need to establish pressure and control early.
deprive is a good card as an extra counterspell, but the returning a land clause does hurt. usually its only run as a 1-2 of, and something more tempo-ish like daze usually fits the role better.
so changes I would make would be:
-2 evolving wilds
-2 deprive
-2 impulse
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
That's the thing I like about impulse though...is it's an instant speed can trip. I can hold it while still holding a counter in hand and use it when I find the opportunity to do so.
The whole manipulating the top of my deck for delver thing does make sense...but that's what the brainstorms and ponders are in there for.
I don't know...I think I'm going to at least test the impulses out. If it proves to be too inconsistent I can add in a couple more ponders, or a couple of preordains.
Also I'm wanting to try a couple wilds out...not because of the thinning. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm wanting them for. I'm wanting them so I have a way to shuffle the top of my deck for my brainstorms and ponders. It's part of what makes brainstorm so busted in other formats. Being able to draw 3 then shuffle away 2 not needed cards.
I'm probably wrong here...it's probably not worth it, but isn't it worth at least testing?
I really don't know though...lol I'm quite stubborn as you can tell :P.
I see your point with using Wilds, but that's better for MUC and multicolor decks like Cawblade. Generally we use Brainstorm to put an instant or sorcery back on top to help flip Delver or even to save a card from Duress/Hymn to Tourach. Sure it's worth testing if you think it will help, but it comes down to personal preference.
I agree that your land count is too high as well, but again that's preference. If you want to run that many I agree with squira13 on adding in some techlands or even adding in 2 Lonely Sandbars.
As far as Impulse, it's much better in decks with higher land counts that hit a lot of land drops like MUC. That way you can cast it for an answer then cast the answer right away, but that won't be the case as much in Delver decks. That's why we want cheap or even free cantrips like Gitaxian Probe
My advice is to test the crap out of your list. Test it for your card choices, but mainly test it for familiarity. The better you know your deck, the better you'll pilot it. I'd also get stated on a sideboard ASAP. Use the sideboard section of this Primer to your advantage especially if you have an idea of what the meta is like. If your going in not knowing the meta then use a sideboard from one of my sample lists as those a generally good.
I would be hesitant about having more than two cruises in the deck. You want to see precisely one a game because I have yet to have a game where I was even close to casting a second. We don't fill our yard up fast enough for it to be as broken as it was in legacy, and from my testing 2 was the perfect number. you saw it often enough to power you through when you needed it, but not often enough that it was often in your opener or in multiples.
as for the wilds: the big difference between this and legacy is we want to use ponder/brainstorm to rig the deck, because we have so many more creatures than legacy delver decks. they usually run like 6-8 dudes where we run 18-20. they can afford to shuffle away bad cards because their odds of still flipping delver are really high, ours aren't. that and the how etb tapped can and will lose you games.
that being said, its your deck and your welcome to try it out. I am eager to hear how the shuffling away bad cards works in practice.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I really like the idea of scour! Thanks for the suggestion.
And...you guys are all right on the evolving wilds now that I've ran the deck. haha...they sounded much better in my head, then they ended up being in practice.
Also...just like you guys told me...this deck really does perform very well on just 2 or 3 lands.
I'm going to 17x Islands in my build.
...and finally...and I'm probably going to be laughed out of the forums for this...I've been testing 2x Merfolk Looter today, and he's actually been performing extremely well for me.
Granted, I was playing him while I was playing 18 lands...so maybe dropping to 17 will make a big difference, but he was a great way to replace drawn lands in the mid-late games.
I wasn't playing against any super aggressive decks though either today...I need to run it against some aggro and burn. Merfolk is probably too slow of a card once I hit more competitive decks.
I'm still running 4x Deprive...I feel a bit ashamed in saying that I'm not totally convinced on daze, nor the idea of spending $16-$20 on a playset. (---edit--- actually think I'm going to find room for 2 mana leaks though.)
Anyhow...here's the list I'll be testing tomorrow:
...P.S., thanks for all the suggestions and for taking the time to explain your suggestions to me guys! I love tweaking and working on decks, but I'm very inexperienced and often times miss obvious things haha, it's been great to have these forums over the past few months that I've gotten back into paper magic!
Very early on in my tests it became very apparent to me that Merfolk Looter is absolutely not what this deck is wanting to do. In the few games I had it in my deck...every time I drew it, I wished it had been something else (either a better creature with more of an immediate impact on the game, or anything else really (besides land).
Early/mid game when I've only got 2 or 3 lands out, it's just a dead draw to me. I need to hold the mana up for counters or draw.
Merfolk looter needs haste! Without it...he's just no good in this deck.
I'm not sure why he was working for me yesterday, but today he was just so bad. Maybe I was blinded a bit by my want for him to work yesterday.
...Aside from that, I've been trying all sorts of things.
More bounce, more draw, more lands, more thought scours + more Cruises...I've really been grinding.
I'm not liking the deck with any more than 2 thought scours and 2 treasure cruises. I do like thought scour...I like what it does for this deck, and I LOVE that it's at instant speed. I want to continue to keep running 2 for now.
And more then 2 cruises just ended up being bad for me. As someone else has pointed out earlier in this thread...drawing into a cruise early on is just no good at all.
There was plenty of games where I would've loved to draw into a second, or even third cruise...but there was too many games where I drew it in my opening hand, or within the first few turns when I was running it as a 3 of...and that just feels bad.
2x Ninjas didn't seem like enough. That card is just insane in this deck. I love it and don't mind drawing multiples once I've hit 4 lands. I'm now testing it as a 3 of. I'm afraid 4 is too many...he's another card that ended up sitting in my hand doing nothing early game (usually till I hit 4 lands...3 lands when I was desperate to try and draw into a 4th land or when I had no counters in hand (which is almost never lol).
Same with spire golem. I didn't really how much of a boss that card was xP. I almost thought about cutting him entirely a couple of days ago, when I was still trying to think up a list.
But there's no way! I had no idea how well he stabilizes the board in this format! He blocks so much! And with his flying, he's not so shabby of an attacker either.
Going to try him as a 3 of as well.
Outside of this...I ran into a couple of games where I was having some serious mana issues at 17 lands. Now of course I was probably dumb for keeping a 1 land hand one game...but I had a brainstorm and a thought scour. I thought surely I'd find a land.
Didn't happen.
And there was 2 other games where I was stuck on 2 lands for far more turns then I wanted to be.
I'm going back to 18. Going to add a single Lonely Sandbar, though maybe it should be a Quicksand instead.
And finally...I'm pretty happy with my counters...though I think I'm going to try 2x Memory Lapse in place of my 2x Mana Leaks. Just wanting to see which I prefer.
memory lapse is a bit of a more tempo card than leak. It sets them back more that turn, but it doesn't deal with the threat permanently. If the card is important (and if you're countering it it probably is) then many times you will wish it was just gone.
As for daze; I can understand the hesitation because of the price. It is one of the more expensive cards in pauper (although if you do some digging you could get the play set for about half of what you said, I got mine for $10) but the price in this case is some indication of its power. the fact that it is essentially 0 mana means you can tap down turn 2 for say a delver and a ponder, and still be able to counter what they play is huge in this kind of deck. the fact that you can also cast 2 counters in the same turn is again huge. You also sometimes get free timewalks because your opponent tries to play around it and waits a turn to cast their spell that they don't want to get dazed.
One thing that I see people do all the time with blue heavy decks is pack too much draw power. Having 10+ draw spells lowers the value of each card you draw, because you end up getting to the point where you draw into more draw power, not more cards that do something, which is the whole reason you run the draw power in the first place.
To give you some ideas, here's the decklist I run, that has been performing smoothly and with great results for some time now.
the 1/1 split between gush and cruise really keeps it working smoothly. gush is a lot better early on and doesn't hurt when you draw it as your "second cruise", as well as the instant speed, and costing 0 mana.
the bonsplitters turn all those 1/1 faeries into meaningful threats, and the arrows give the deck a much needed answer to stuff that gets on the board. It also has good synergy with echoing truth, as you can return it once it runs out of counters and replay it to refill it.
I run less cantrips because people tend to think there is a safety net with brainstorms that you can keep a bad hand with cantrips in it and it will somehow not suck. The ponders are enough to smooth out draws and rig for delver, and I use the other cantrip space to instead pack more value cards.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Okay haha well I feel like a complete noob xP. All my ideas for the deck have pretty much not worked out...and now I'm back to a pretty much stock list :P.
Used a couple of daze proxies...and omg it kept saving me big time. It's just one of them cards I actually had to play to see how much value it brings.
They are about $3.50 for the old ones, and $5 for the new dual deck version on PucaTrades (which is where I've been picking all my cards up at lately). I'm only going to pick up 2 right now.
Taking the thought scours back out...Going to try a couple bonesplitters.
Adding in a preordain...would run a gush, but I'm already running too many spells that require me to bounce my lands back to my hand.
Replacing lonely sandbar with a quicksand.
Still keeping at 18 lands.
-1x Spire Golem
-2x Memory Lapse
-2x Thought Scour
-1x Lonely Sandbar
Aura Flux is an increasingly popular choice for sideboards. You also can't go wrong with Stormbound Geist against MBC or other removal-heavy decks. Dispel is definitely worth being run in some number. Curse of Chains is also a popular choice, as is Curfew.
yea I agree with the limit on spells that bounce your own lands. 6 is the most I would run, although you get a little extra breathing room because you run more lands.
Upkeep's recommendation for the sb are pretty much everything I would recommend.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I'd initially dismissed Thought Scour and Mental Note, thinking using them solely to fuel Treasure Cruise (and not Rune Snag, AK, etc) seemed to be a waste of slots/mana when compared to things with more direct utility (e.g. Git Probe), but the inventor made it work (and went 4-0).
It looks pretty unconventional, but it has all it needs. CA, Threats, Counterspells and some disruption. I just would hate to lose so many cards to self milling. Too bad we don't have any Dredge cards in blue to use here.
I'm not thinking treasure cruise banning hits us all that hard in our deck.
I've not played with gush, so I can't say for sure how much of a hit it's going to have on us...but right now I'm not too tremendously sad to replace my 2x (now banned) treasure cruises, with 2x gush.
What are your guy's thoughts? Particularly interested in those who have ran gush before but had replaced them with treasure cruise.
Is cruise a bigger hit to us then I'm thinking?
Also, I am concerned that I'm now running too many spells that return Islands to my hand. ATM I'm running 4x Deprive, 2x Daze...and now I'm wanting to run 2x Gush. I am however running 18 lands (instead of the typical 16 or 17).
I don't like the thought of running 4x daze. I just don't lol
Is 8 island bouncers too many? I'd be fine replacing 2 of my Deprives...in fact I'm going to go ahead and replace 2 of them for Preordain for a bit to try out.
Here's what I'm looking at now:
I don't see too much of a problem with losing TC for the deck. The deck was already Tier 1 before Cruise was printed. Gush is pretty awesome! It's a free spell at instant speed! I also don't see a problem with running 8 spells that bounce lands, especially since the deck runs fine with 2 lands.
I think Gush is all right. The Draw is nice and we can live with the bounce.
In the last posted deck I don't like the Brainstorm. Since there are no effects to shuffle, I would kick it for more Ponder and Preordain.
I love brainstorm. It's at instant speed...that's what makes storm great in this deck. It allows me to hold up the mana for a counterspell...but if not needed, then I can pop a brainstorm at the end of my opponent's turn.
There's also a lot of games I've played where I'll have a delver and a brainstorm in my opening hand. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to run out a delver, then on my following turn at my upkeep (before I draw) popping a brainstorm to ensure my delver flips turn 2.
I may be wrong...but I just feel brainstorm, of the 3, is the most powerful...even with no way to shuffle in the deck.
I have tried to add ways to shuffle my deck...but they've been unsuccessful and frankly...unneeded.
I think Gush is all right. The Draw is nice and we can live with the bounce.
In the last posted deck I don't like the Brainstorm. Since there are no effects to shuffle, I would kick it for more Ponder and Preordain.
I have to agree with Twitch77. Brainstorm is the strongest of the 3 options. If you're looking for ways to shuffle away things then you're using Brainstorm wrong in Delver. Sure, a lot of other decks need to or want to shuffle things away, but Delver doesn't care. We have enough cantrips to dig through the cards and Gush also allows us to redraw those cards for free! With Brainstorm you also get a whole hand of options to put back on top to flip Delver while Preordain and Ponder can whiff easier than Brainstorm.
With that being said, it really comes down to preference. If you like Preordain and Ponder better then go for it!
Hey guys, instead of Spire Golem in my deck, I've been using a full playset of Faerie Miscreants and have found them more powerful then Spire Golemn. More card draw, more faeries for tricks, and more turn 1 plays. It's gotten to the point that my opponent's have had to blow up the Miscreants as the card draw repetition is to much for them. What does everyone else think of this instead of Spire Golemn?
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
I don't know. Spire Golems are so hard to deal with for many decks. They can really slow someone down, or even be a difficult threat to remove. I've seen many matches where having a Golem was key. It certainly is nice to have the Miscreants for all the tricks and draw, but at the end of the day it's still just a 1/1 flying.
I definitely agree with Upkeep, Spire Golems are too valuable. I've lost many games to them and won many because of them! Faerie Miscreant is pretty nice, but they should only replace something like Zephyr Sprite if you used a Faerie subtheme. Delver already has a LOT of Cantrip options, so replacing a big threat like Spire Golem just for a Cantrip is a waste IMO.
Hi folks, this is a pretty standard list slightly adapted for casual Legacy pauper (no sideboards, no Gush, I face a more diverse metagame). I feel bad with no removal, so I'm adding in a couple of Echoing Truths. How much will the four Deprives bite me? I like hard counterspells so I'd like to run as many as possible. Daze is a bad late-game topdeck, and I'm counting on Spellstutter to stop small spells, so the alternative would be to go with Mana Leaks or Rune Snags to attack large spells. Rune Snags don't do well in a 2-2 split with Deprive.
The most dangerous deck I face regularly is an elf deck that ramps up quickly with Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger, and Priest of Titania. It's not as streamlined as Legacy Elf Combo but it can still pack a punch. I know I'm bringing knives to gunfights with this matchup, but I'd like to explore the possibilities at least.
I'm thinking I could I drop a Ninja and the two Bonesplitters for a bit of removal. Thornwind would ping */1s and help buff the Spellstutters into the late game, but would be slow. Vapor Snag would help a bit (returning first turn Llanowar/Fyndhorn is effectively a Time Walk and can give time to set up a Spellstutter). Alternately Petals would allow for casting a 2-mana counterspell on the first turn, or an explosive Delver/Ponder setup against other decks.
Alternately I could just race. Flipped Delver with Unstable Mutation is a 6-point swing on turn 2, and I can bounce any Mutated creature with Ninjas and Snaps to save it from death.
I wouldn't get too crazy re doing that deck. the only thing i would do is maybe consider maindecking daze. that will allow you to pick off a few of their early mana dorks without slowing you down tempo wise. Thornwind faeries are decent against them however so bring them and the arrows in from the side as well.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
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Here's the list I think I'm going to try out:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
2x Spire Golem
4x Counterspell
4x Deprive
BOUNCE (6):
2x Vapor Snag
4x Snap
DRAW (10):
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Impulse
2x Treasure Cruise
2x Evolving Wilds
16x Island
I don't see impulse in many lists. Anyone care to explain why? I can be pretty dense haha...so I may be missing something obvious.
...Also, I'm really scared to run under 18 lands! lol I see lists running as few as 15 lands, and that makes me super nervous!
I want to try 2 evolving wilds out for my brainstorms/ponders/treasure cruises.
Thoughts?
We run aggressive mana bases because we don't need a lot of lands. we are A-ok seeing only two lands a whole game. 18 lands is fine, but if you go that high up in land count, you should have some techy lands in there like quicksand or desert. These provide the high mana count you like with the ability to not be complete turd draws when you get them later in the game. and they are also your only source of hard removal in this deck.
Take evolving wilds out, please for the love of god. In case you haven't heard, card thinning is mathematically disproven. There's an article going into great detail as to why, but basically the odds it does *technically* alter are so astronomically low that it offers no noticeable advantage. That coupled with the fact that evolving wilds is essentially a "ETB tapped" island, you just set yourself back a turn in a deck that specifically revolves around not doing just that. you absolutely need to hit 2 mana turn 2 or you will lose often. This deck's usual plan is to play a turn 1 delver, turn 2 cloud of faeries, then sit back on a counterspell or sprite. The first 3 turns are the most critical to your success, and in a tempo deck like this you really need to establish pressure and control early.
deprive is a good card as an extra counterspell, but the returning a land clause does hurt. usually its only run as a 1-2 of, and something more tempo-ish like daze usually fits the role better.
so changes I would make would be:
-2 evolving wilds
-2 deprive
-2 impulse
+2 quicksand
+4 daze
That's the thing I like about impulse though...is it's an instant speed can trip. I can hold it while still holding a counter in hand and use it when I find the opportunity to do so.
The whole manipulating the top of my deck for delver thing does make sense...but that's what the brainstorms and ponders are in there for.
I don't know...I think I'm going to at least test the impulses out. If it proves to be too inconsistent I can add in a couple more ponders, or a couple of preordains.
Also I'm wanting to try a couple wilds out...not because of the thinning. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm wanting them for. I'm wanting them so I have a way to shuffle the top of my deck for my brainstorms and ponders. It's part of what makes brainstorm so busted in other formats. Being able to draw 3 then shuffle away 2 not needed cards.
I'm probably wrong here...it's probably not worth it, but isn't it worth at least testing?
I really don't know though...lol I'm quite stubborn as you can tell :P.
I agree that your land count is too high as well, but again that's preference. If you want to run that many I agree with squira13 on adding in some techlands or even adding in 2 Lonely Sandbars.
As far as Impulse, it's much better in decks with higher land counts that hit a lot of land drops like MUC. That way you can cast it for an answer then cast the answer right away, but that won't be the case as much in Delver decks. That's why we want cheap or even free cantrips like Gitaxian Probe
My advice is to test the crap out of your list. Test it for your card choices, but mainly test it for familiarity. The better you know your deck, the better you'll pilot it. I'd also get stated on a sideboard ASAP. Use the sideboard section of this Primer to your advantage especially if you have an idea of what the meta is like. If your going in not knowing the meta then use a sideboard from one of my sample lists as those a generally good.
as for the wilds: the big difference between this and legacy is we want to use ponder/brainstorm to rig the deck, because we have so many more creatures than legacy delver decks. they usually run like 6-8 dudes where we run 18-20. they can afford to shuffle away bad cards because their odds of still flipping delver are really high, ours aren't. that and the how etb tapped can and will lose you games.
that being said, its your deck and your welcome to try it out. I am eager to hear how the shuffling away bad cards works in practice.
And...you guys are all right on the evolving wilds now that I've ran the deck. haha...they sounded much better in my head, then they ended up being in practice.
Also...just like you guys told me...this deck really does perform very well on just 2 or 3 lands.
I'm going to 17x Islands in my build.
...and finally...and I'm probably going to be laughed out of the forums for this...I've been testing 2x Merfolk Looter today, and he's actually been performing extremely well for me.
Granted, I was playing him while I was playing 18 lands...so maybe dropping to 17 will make a big difference, but he was a great way to replace drawn lands in the mid-late games.
I wasn't playing against any super aggressive decks though either today...I need to run it against some aggro and burn. Merfolk is probably too slow of a card once I hit more competitive decks.
I'm still running 4x Deprive...I feel a bit ashamed in saying that I'm not totally convinced on daze, nor the idea of spending $16-$20 on a playset. (---edit--- actually think I'm going to find room for 2 mana leaks though.)
Anyhow...here's the list I'll be testing tomorrow:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Cloud of Faeries
2x Merfolk Looter
2x Ninja of the Deep Hours
2x Spire Golem
4x Counterspell
4x Deprive
2x Mana Leak
BOUNCE (4):
4x Snap
DRAW (11):
4x Brainstorm
3x Thought Scour
2x Ponder
2x Treasure Cruise
17x Island
CHANGES:
-2x Ninja Of The Deep Hours
-2x Vapor Snag
-2x Impulse
-2x Evolving Wilds
+2x Merfolk Looter
+2x Mana leak
+3x Thought Scour
+1x Island
...P.S., thanks for all the suggestions and for taking the time to explain your suggestions to me guys! I love tweaking and working on decks, but I'm very inexperienced and often times miss obvious things haha, it's been great to have these forums over the past few months that I've gotten back into paper magic!
Very early on in my tests it became very apparent to me that Merfolk Looter is absolutely not what this deck is wanting to do. In the few games I had it in my deck...every time I drew it, I wished it had been something else (either a better creature with more of an immediate impact on the game, or anything else really (besides land).
Early/mid game when I've only got 2 or 3 lands out, it's just a dead draw to me. I need to hold the mana up for counters or draw.
Merfolk looter needs haste! Without it...he's just no good in this deck.
I'm not sure why he was working for me yesterday, but today he was just so bad. Maybe I was blinded a bit by my want for him to work yesterday.
...Aside from that, I've been trying all sorts of things.
More bounce, more draw, more lands, more thought scours + more Cruises...I've really been grinding.
I'm not liking the deck with any more than 2 thought scours and 2 treasure cruises. I do like thought scour...I like what it does for this deck, and I LOVE that it's at instant speed. I want to continue to keep running 2 for now.
And more then 2 cruises just ended up being bad for me. As someone else has pointed out earlier in this thread...drawing into a cruise early on is just no good at all.
There was plenty of games where I would've loved to draw into a second, or even third cruise...but there was too many games where I drew it in my opening hand, or within the first few turns when I was running it as a 3 of...and that just feels bad.
2x Ninjas didn't seem like enough. That card is just insane in this deck. I love it and don't mind drawing multiples once I've hit 4 lands. I'm now testing it as a 3 of. I'm afraid 4 is too many...he's another card that ended up sitting in my hand doing nothing early game (usually till I hit 4 lands...3 lands when I was desperate to try and draw into a 4th land or when I had no counters in hand (which is almost never lol).
Same with spire golem. I didn't really how much of a boss that card was xP. I almost thought about cutting him entirely a couple of days ago, when I was still trying to think up a list.
But there's no way! I had no idea how well he stabilizes the board in this format! He blocks so much! And with his flying, he's not so shabby of an attacker either.
Going to try him as a 3 of as well.
Outside of this...I ran into a couple of games where I was having some serious mana issues at 17 lands. Now of course I was probably dumb for keeping a 1 land hand one game...but I had a brainstorm and a thought scour. I thought surely I'd find a land.
Didn't happen.
And there was 2 other games where I was stuck on 2 lands for far more turns then I wanted to be.
I'm going back to 18. Going to add a single Lonely Sandbar, though maybe it should be a Quicksand instead.
And finally...I'm pretty happy with my counters...though I think I'm going to try 2x Memory Lapse in place of my 2x Mana Leaks. Just wanting to see which I prefer.
Here's where I'm at now:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3x Spire Golem
4x Counterspell
4x Deprive
2x Memory Lapse
BOUNCE (4):
4x Snap
DRAW (10):
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Thought Scour
2x Treasure Cruise
1x Lonely Sandbar
17x Island
CHANGES:
-2x Merfolk Looter
-2x Mana Leak
-1x Thought Scour
+1x Ninja Of The Deep Hours
+1x Spire Golem
+2x Memory Lapse
+1x Lonely Sandbar
As for daze; I can understand the hesitation because of the price. It is one of the more expensive cards in pauper (although if you do some digging you could get the play set for about half of what you said, I got mine for $10) but the price in this case is some indication of its power. the fact that it is essentially 0 mana means you can tap down turn 2 for say a delver and a ponder, and still be able to counter what they play is huge in this kind of deck. the fact that you can also cast 2 counters in the same turn is again huge. You also sometimes get free timewalks because your opponent tries to play around it and waits a turn to cast their spell that they don't want to get dazed.
One thing that I see people do all the time with blue heavy decks is pack too much draw power. Having 10+ draw spells lowers the value of each card you draw, because you end up getting to the point where you draw into more draw power, not more cards that do something, which is the whole reason you run the draw power in the first place.
To give you some ideas, here's the decklist I run, that has been performing smoothly and with great results for some time now.
1 quicksand
4 delver of secrets
4 cloud of faeries
4 spellstutter sprite
4 ninja of the deep hours
4 spire golem
4 daze
1 deprive
4 snap
2 echoing truth
1 gush
1 treasure cruise
2 bonesplitter
1 serrated arrows
the 1/1 split between gush and cruise really keeps it working smoothly. gush is a lot better early on and doesn't hurt when you draw it as your "second cruise", as well as the instant speed, and costing 0 mana.
the bonsplitters turn all those 1/1 faeries into meaningful threats, and the arrows give the deck a much needed answer to stuff that gets on the board. It also has good synergy with echoing truth, as you can return it once it runs out of counters and replay it to refill it.
I run less cantrips because people tend to think there is a safety net with brainstorms that you can keep a bad hand with cantrips in it and it will somehow not suck. The ponders are enough to smooth out draws and rig for delver, and I use the other cantrip space to instead pack more value cards.
Used a couple of daze proxies...and omg it kept saving me big time. It's just one of them cards I actually had to play to see how much value it brings.
They are about $3.50 for the old ones, and $5 for the new dual deck version on PucaTrades (which is where I've been picking all my cards up at lately). I'm only going to pick up 2 right now.
Taking the thought scours back out...Going to try a couple bonesplitters.
Adding in a preordain...would run a gush, but I'm already running too many spells that require me to bounce my lands back to my hand.
Replacing lonely sandbar with a quicksand.
Still keeping at 18 lands.
-1x Spire Golem
-2x Memory Lapse
-2x Thought Scour
-1x Lonely Sandbar
+2x Daze
+1x Preordain
+2x Bonesplitter
+1 Quicksand
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
2x Spire Golem
2x Bonesplitter
COUNTERSPELLS (10):
4x Counterspell
4x Deprive
2x Daze
BOUNCE (4):
4x Snap
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
1x Preordain
2x Treasure Cruise
LAND (18):
17x Island
1x Quicksand
And here's the sideboard I'm packing for now. I've NO idea what other people will be playing yet, so I'm sticking with a pretty generic sideboard atm.
2x Steel Sabotage
2x Vapor Snag
2x Boomerang
2x Hands Of Binding
3x Piracy Charm
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Upkeep's recommendation for the sb are pretty much everything I would recommend.
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Thought Scour
4 Spire Golem
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Snap
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Mental Note
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Counterspell
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Brainstorm
3 Dispel
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stormbound Geist
2 Gush
I'd initially dismissed Thought Scour and Mental Note, thinking using them solely to fuel Treasure Cruise (and not Rune Snag, AK, etc) seemed to be a waste of slots/mana when compared to things with more direct utility (e.g. Git Probe), but the inventor made it work (and went 4-0).
Legacy Gobbyboogers R
I've not played with gush, so I can't say for sure how much of a hit it's going to have on us...but right now I'm not too tremendously sad to replace my 2x (now banned) treasure cruises, with 2x gush.
What are your guy's thoughts? Particularly interested in those who have ran gush before but had replaced them with treasure cruise.
Is cruise a bigger hit to us then I'm thinking?
Also, I am concerned that I'm now running too many spells that return Islands to my hand. ATM I'm running 4x Deprive, 2x Daze...and now I'm wanting to run 2x Gush. I am however running 18 lands (instead of the typical 16 or 17).
I don't like the thought of running 4x daze. I just don't lol
Is 8 island bouncers too many? I'd be fine replacing 2 of my Deprives...in fact I'm going to go ahead and replace 2 of them for Preordain for a bit to try out.
Here's what I'm looking at now:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3x Spire Golem
EQUIPMENT (2):
2x Bonesplitter
DRAW (10):
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Preordain
2x Gush
4x Counterspell
2x Deprive
2x Daze
BOUNCE (4):
4x Snap
LAND (18):
17x Island
1x Quicksand
2x Dispel
2x Steel Sabotage
4x Hydroblast
3x Piracy Charm
2x Boomerang
2x Hands Of Binding
...go ahead and ignore my sideboard...it's not complete atm.
I love brainstorm. It's at instant speed...that's what makes storm great in this deck. It allows me to hold up the mana for a counterspell...but if not needed, then I can pop a brainstorm at the end of my opponent's turn.
There's also a lot of games I've played where I'll have a delver and a brainstorm in my opening hand. Sometimes it's nice to have the option to run out a delver, then on my following turn at my upkeep (before I draw) popping a brainstorm to ensure my delver flips turn 2.
I may be wrong...but I just feel brainstorm, of the 3, is the most powerful...even with no way to shuffle in the deck.
I have tried to add ways to shuffle my deck...but they've been unsuccessful and frankly...unneeded.
I have to agree with Twitch77. Brainstorm is the strongest of the 3 options. If you're looking for ways to shuffle away things then you're using Brainstorm wrong in Delver. Sure, a lot of other decks need to or want to shuffle things away, but Delver doesn't care. We have enough cantrips to dig through the cards and Gush also allows us to redraw those cards for free! With Brainstorm you also get a whole hand of options to put back on top to flip Delver while Preordain and Ponder can whiff easier than Brainstorm.
With that being said, it really comes down to preference. If you like Preordain and Ponder better then go for it!
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
16 Island
2 Quicksand
// Dudes
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Spire Golem
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterspell
4 Deprive
4 Snap
2 Echoing Truth
2 Bonesplitter
1 Daze
1 Mana Leak
1 Prohibit
1 Rune Snag
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Thornwind Faeries
1 Unstable Mutation
1 Viridian Longbow
Hi folks, this is a pretty standard list slightly adapted for casual Legacy pauper (no sideboards, no Gush, I face a more diverse metagame). I feel bad with no removal, so I'm adding in a couple of Echoing Truths. How much will the four Deprives bite me? I like hard counterspells so I'd like to run as many as possible. Daze is a bad late-game topdeck, and I'm counting on Spellstutter to stop small spells, so the alternative would be to go with Mana Leaks or Rune Snags to attack large spells. Rune Snags don't do well in a 2-2 split with Deprive.
The most dangerous deck I face regularly is an elf deck that ramps up quickly with Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger, and Priest of Titania. It's not as streamlined as Legacy Elf Combo but it can still pack a punch. I know I'm bringing knives to gunfights with this matchup, but I'd like to explore the possibilities at least.
I'm thinking I could I drop a Ninja and the two Bonesplitters for a bit of removal. Thornwind would ping */1s and help buff the Spellstutters into the late game, but would be slow. Vapor Snag would help a bit (returning first turn Llanowar/Fyndhorn is effectively a Time Walk and can give time to set up a Spellstutter). Alternately Petals would allow for casting a 2-mana counterspell on the first turn, or an explosive Delver/Ponder setup against other decks.
Alternately I could just race. Flipped Delver with Unstable Mutation is a 6-point swing on turn 2, and I can bounce any Mutated creature with Ninjas and Snaps to save it from death.
Any other thoughts? Thanks!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.