Congrats to Johnny Rogue for taking down the tournament.
ML Berlin!, thank you for all your great work during the last years hosting this tournament. You have kept this great format alive with your enthusiasm and dedication. You did a great job week after week!
Lowman, thanks for taking on the role for the future, you will also be amazing.
Oscar from MTGOCardMarket, thank you for your continued support for our event. We really appreciate your kindness to us. You keep the flame burning strong.
Hope everyone is having a good week to this point.
Few brief announcements on the format:
First: Prize support has been expanded, the total prize pool has expanded to 16 tix for every event. This said, winner will take home 8 tix, and the remaining tix will be split between the X-1 players. Thanks again to our great sponsors at MTGOCardMarket.
Second: Voting on the ban listing is still open, we've only had six players cast a ballot. So far there's a lot of cards that are sitting on the fence (50/50 vote). Keep in mind, with only 6 voters, even some of the cards showing 25% voted for them to get in the format are at 50% because two players voted to adopt the German Highlander Banned list (well more voted to adopt it, but then proceeded to vote independently on the cards, but that's alright, at the end we'll count the specific cards that these players believe safe for the format). If 0001 on 8 OCT 17 comes around and all we've had are 6 voters, then we'll go with that majority. So if you want to have a voice in the format please feel free to cast your ballot at: CSM Voting Tool.
Third: Offer is still up, if we hit twenty players this next Saturday then 16 treasure chests are going into the winners circle for added prize pool.
Take it easy you all and if you're into drafting etc, then take a look at that hamtastic gamestate that a deck I drafted in the Ixalan limited format came to (3-0 limited cradle combo :P).
I think the German highlander banlist has some good things about it, but I would rather not have such a sudden and drastic change. I agree with a lot of it. But I won't vote for changing over the banlist wholesale. There's nothing I feel really needs to be banned, but many things are banned for what seems to me like no good reason. Plenty of these cards are banned in legacy for good reason, but there's a big difference between having 4 in a 60 card deck and having 1 in a 100 card deck. So I propose we unban the following:
Channel
Crucible of Worlds
Demonic Consultation (we already have Tained Pact, which is basically a safer version of this card for many decks)
Entomb
Fastbond
Intuition
Life from the Loam
Lion's Eye Diamond (seriously there is NO reason this should be banned- what are you afraid of?!)
Mana Drain
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Timetwister
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Some of the others I think could be unbanned but I would rather take a more gradual approach.
First off congrats to RobertZdar for his win with Fish today, I've attached the trophy below. Apologies up front, but I finally broke down and had to put a goofy text blurb on the image (like you do at old school tournaments for winners), mostly because I always think of that damn line from Anchorman when I see this card (although I suppose it's a flavor fail in regards to subsequent grenade references, because from what I've seen at least rocket propelled grenades are great fishing devices...anyway).
And now for the announcement on bannings:
First, we will not be adopting the German Highlander Ban list (60% of voters voted against doing so).
On to individual cards and voter percentage support:
1. Birthing Pod (60% favor ban): Birthing Pod is from this point BANNED in the format.
2. Natural Order (40% favor ban): Natural Order remains LEGAL in the format.
3. Channel (50% favor ban): Channel remains BANNED in the format.
4. Crucible of Worlds (70% favor unban): Crucible of Worlds is LEGAL in the format.
5. Demonic Consultation (50% favor unban): Demonic Consultation remains BANNED in the format.
6. Demonic Tutor (30% favor unban): Demonic Tutor remains BANNED in the format.
7. Dig Through Time (60% favor unban): Dig Through Time is LEGAL in the format.
8. Fastbond (60% favor unban): Fastbond is LEGAL in the format.
9. Intuition (77% favor unban [one person did not vote on this card]): Intuition is LEGAL in the format.
10. Life from the Loam (60% favor unban): Life from the Loam is LEGAL in the format.
11. Lion's Eye Diamond (70% favor unban): Lion's Eye Diamond is LEGAL in the format.
12. Mana Drain (55% favor unban): Mana Drain is LEGAL in the format.
13. Memory Jar (70% favor unban): Memory Jar is LEGAL in the format.
14. Merchant Scroll (80% favor unban): Merchant Scroll is LEGAL in the format.
15. Mind's Desire (70% favor unban): Mind's Desire is LEGAL in the format.
16. Mystical Tutor (60% favor unban): Mystical Tutor is LEGAL in the format.
17. Necropotence (60% favor unban): Necropotence is LEGAL in the format.
18. Oath of Druids (40% favor unban): Oath of Druids remains BANNED in the format.
19. Stoneforge Mystic (55% favor unban [one person did not vote on this card]): Stoneforge Mystic is LEGAL in the format.
20. Timetwister (70% favor unban): Timetwister is LEGAL in the format.
21. Tolarian Academy (60% favor unban): Tolarian Academy is LEGAL in the format.
22. Treasure Cruise (60% favor unban): Treasure Cruise is LEGAL in the format.
23. Trinisphere (you old rock you) (90% favor unban): Trinisphere is LEGAL in the format.
24. Wheel of Fortune (50% favor unban): Wheel of Fortune remains BANNED in the format.
25. Windfall (80% favor unban): Windfall is LEGAL in the format.
26. Yawgmoth's Bargain (60% favor unban): Yawgmoth's Bargain is LEGAL in the format.
27. Yawgmoth's Will (40% favor unban): Yawgmoth's Will remains BANNED in the format.
I'll attached the excel sheet that has the #'s without user names for anyone's reference and as means of transparency. If you voted for the German Highlander format ban list and proceeded to put your user name in after that selection, I have gone through and manually inputted your vote for each card in accordance with that ban listing; if you put down you favored the German Highlander Format, but then proceeded to vote for all the cards with a different stance from GHL, then I took your individual card choices over the question #1 in the affirmative.
Pretty decent changes for the format and I think a step in a wider direction with it. Only loss includes Birthing Pod, which stinks but after playing it to some victories this evening, I whole heartedly agree that this tool box machine had to go. Alright guys, appreciate everyone's support, Ixalan is now also legal in the 100CS event, and the banned list will be updated accordingly.
I tend to agree with all of your recommendations, with the exception of entomb. At one point I was a strong supporter of the card, I've been a longtime player of the card in multiple formats, and think it's one of those unique effects that a lot of combo decks (or value decks, sure lands runs gamble in legacy, but it could just as easily run entomb to get Life from the Loam in the gyard if the deck wasn't concerned with using R/G mana to punishing fire out Deathrite Shaman's etc.) really want. I love the card, but I tend to love it more in a format where FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Swords to Plowshares are all multiples in decks. The issue you run into with this card is you're going to get some horrifically variance skewed games, where if my reanimating opponent is on the play, I'll only ever be able to have one mana at my disposal before I'm seeing the best card in their deck on the board (sure there's answers at 1 mana [these are few] and they've spent a lot of resources making this happen), but if that sticks then it's likely game over, ie they're drawing 7, everyone discards their hand, and on and on. I think entomb is a sweet card, but when this is in openers, it's generally going to mean the games over by turn 2. I didn't offer this one up, which may have been my error as it's currently banned in GHL and 100cs. If desired let me know and we reopen the issue on this card or any other that wasn't offered. But, I think the changes detailed above are quite large and we should likely see where these lead us. I definitely think they're all going to give more balance/viability to the format, but we're also looking at a lot more power that we now need to assess and ensure is allowing a good balance etc. Hope this makes sense, and sorry for not having entomb on the ballot; I'll offer it up next time, but strongly think it leads to a lot of dumb games just due to its sheer efficiency, if it was 2 mana then I'd say go nuts with it, 1 is just a dangerous number on CMCs.
Generally you say that when you're trying to warn someone of consequences that you knew about before going into a venture...without spoiling you to much: didn't you promulgate these very two cards for inclusion :P, making this an odd caveat.
CSM matches are up here: CSM 3.52. Enjoy folks and have a good one.
I voted to un-ban Crucible and Life from Loam, so that warning also applies to me. I want to give these cards a chance to shine and then see if they will become too oppressive to the format, hopefully not but let's see.
If they end up being oppressive, we can ban them. But I suspect there exists sufficient graveyard hate to keep them under control. Once your loam gets exiled, you aren't getting it back, barring Pull from Eternity nonsense or eldrazi processing.
Thanks to our sponsor MTGOCardMarket for a wonderful Season 3, our gracious host ML_Berlin for three seasons and our new host lowman02 to take us into Season 4 and beyond.
This season was marked by the strong performance of 4c blood. I call it Abzund/Junzan but no one else does.
The main loser in this new ban list is the poor Enchantress Deck. Nothing relevant got un-banned for the Enchantress.
Even poor White Weenie gained a boost from the un-banning (Stoneforge Mystic). And even RDW got something out of the deal too (namely a metagame which will shift away from other aggro and midrange decks and more towards control and combo).
I actually think it got more than you'd think; you just need to be more creative. For instance, what stops enchantress from playing a hermit druid, loam, intuition, and mystical tutor package; this coupled with effects like replenish (etc) could generate vast advantage in very short order. Only requirement would be that you play blue in addition to G/W. Interestingly enough you could also play fastbond and courser which are both very fetchable in the enchantments deck, and generate a lot of advantage with a hermit druid as well. These are just a few ideas though; I'm sure there's tons more that you could figure out with just these few cards...see some of these cards even made your pet deck more consistent and viable
I've asked lowman for a complete list of banned cards, which I only copied here. If there are any errors pls report to him.
I will, too, next time we meet, probably tomorrow.
If I sent you a bad list then I apologize, Sensei's correct, LED is also authorized. I cannot fix the post #1, but when you get the chance to fix it, I'd appreciate it.
Hello all,
Not sure if anyone else has had the chance to brew at all under the new ban list but I've been putting up a few videos and a deck tech on a Sultai Loam Control deck that is pretty cool and now viable in the format: BUG Loam Deck Tech.
Enjoy folks and look forward to seeing everyone this weekend
Had an interesting conversation with another player in regards to one of the cards specifically unbanned (not the one I would think would be cause for greatest concern): Mana Drain.
Over the time I've spent musing and exploring this way of playing the game with you all, I've heard many folks equate Bribery to Natural Order. In an earlier post, I spoke to how I personally think this view of the card is wrong, excepting that if you're playing a Natural Order deck, then Bribery, when presented by the opposition, would appear in many ways to be a slightly less efficient Natural Order. The basis of my argument was that while Bribery is the best thing you can be doing against decks running Primeval Titan or even--gulp--more robust creature packages, typically it's getting something far more tamed in nature--maybe a utility creature or maybe something horrifically bad--like the top end of a RDW deck--Hellrider/Hero of Oxid Ridge. My point was Natural Order is a far more "natural" (consistent) card to play in ones deck, which should be built to benefit from it, more so than Bribery which is conditional on something you do not control--your pairing and what your opponent decided to bring to the table.
Off of my tangent, and back to Mana Drain, I think this card foments gamestates very akin to those generated by Natural Order, although both vary in function for how they get there.
1. Mana Drain is a higher upside card than Natural Order--it is more powerful--The highest upside application of mana drain is that you effectively stop an opponent's turn and prevent their board development or progress of win condition for a full turn cycle and also double your expected growth or progression of your own board or win condition. In terms of other cards actions, mana drain in its optimal use is time walk + drain power. However, mana drain, similar to bribery, requires your opposition to take action or have made decisions, in regards to building, prior to the game ever starting. If for instance my opponent is casting Savannah Lions or Monastery Swiftspear every turn, well, all my mana drain will ever be is a counterspell with at most nominal impact on the game (I'd probably rather dig for an answer to the board as opposed to leaving up permission...because at this point the board is already beating me and an apt opponent won't play into obvious permission when they can already win the game with the resources they've exposed to risk). The other downside to Mana Drain is that it relies on the user of it, to have resources available in hand to utilize the gained opportunity (mana) to present a sizable threat(s) or progression of the gamestate (i.e. if I have a fist full of counter magic and draw into more, then realistically, I've just cast counterspell to gain myself no advantage other than an additional draw step and freedom from whatever game impacting card my opponent attempted to resolve).
Natural Order can get many cards; however, if you are running it and have put impactful cards into your deck that can be tutored with this spell, then the ability to receive the card's benefits are only limited by your own decision making, not the actions of your opponent or their building decisions/deck choice prior to the event (there are obviously cases such as aven mindcensor or containment priest that can limit this cards capability, but the argument is one a priori of any extended exchange of cards, to include other permission or disruption).
Both of these cards will tend to generate a similar gamestate if used optimally--Natural Order is a 1-2 exchange, however, you'd be hard pressed to argue that 9/10 times, it will get a Primeval Titan, which is itself an immediate 3-1 upon resolution...and if it attacks--well I think you get the picture.
I would never say that mana drain is a less powerful card than natural order; it wouldn't be true. However, the card's inclusion in a deck comes at a cost of variance: 1. What is my opponent playing and can this card reach its potential? and 2. Can my deck effectively capitalize on the opportunity of a sizable mana endowment on the turn following this card's resolution? So Mana Drain is a far more variance laden card and comes at a greater cost to your deck's consistency; in many games it takes great effort to set this card up to optimize fulfillment of its potential, whereas, natural order will play out the same every time when it resolves, as long as you're playing the right cards, and you haven't had the misfortune of drawing them while trying to set up your NO turn.
Just some thoughts on the changing format and some ideas on how to evaluate Mana Drain, specifically if you haven't had the opportunity to play with it historically or in some other format.
Hope it helps guys and see you all this afternoon/evening.
Take it easy now.
--KB
P.S.-Just noticed the flavor text on the new iconic masters art linked to the Mana Drain card names above...pretty funny because this text also describes the difference between both cards in function...although I would say that there is a force equal to preparation, especially in a game involving 100 distinct cards, variance, sometimes you just draw the good stuff
I agree that NO and Bribery are not that similar. For example, when I'm playing my WW deck, I find NO pretty hard to beat especially when resolved on turn 3. On the other hand, Bribery is just not good against me- the best you're getting for 5 mana is a 3 or 4 mana creature that's better at attacking than blocking. Bribery is the reason I have Baneslayer in the SB instead of maindeck (funny how a single card is the difference between Bribery being meh and amazing in the matchup).
But even that comparison makes more sense than comparing NO to Mana Drain. One turns a creature into the best one in your deck, and the other is just a counterspell with potentially huge upside and no downside. They're similar to the extent that every good card is similar to every other good card in that they make you more likely to win, but that's about it.
Have fun today, unfortunately I won't be able to make it.
So after reading the last few pages of this forum (sorry, im catching up, not a frequent visitor here) let me get this straight- everyone argues how broken 4c blood is so we respond by banning a card not played in 4c blood (pod) then unban a bunch of combo enablers, mana drain, loam/fastbond/crucible, and Necropotence? In Senseirobs
breakdown a few post above from the results of last season, how often was the winner packing birthing pod in their deck or natural order for the matter? I haven't crunched the numbers so I really don't know. But shouldn't the criteria for a banning be a cards complete dominance to the point of warping the format? That would be reflected in the frequency of the winning decks, right? Let me also say as a green player the banning of pod (and even potentially natural order) doesn't actually bother me nearly as much as the unbanning of far more broken and oppressive cards. Like fastbond, Necropotence, loam, crucible, and mana drain. Wow.
As far as mana drain vs natural order. I would argue you have to look no further than the legacy format to see which is considered more powerful by wotc and the pros. Mana drain is banned BANNED in legacy yet natural order is completely legal but rarely, if ever sees competitive play. Another important strength of mana drain left unmentioned is that as a defensive spell it is potentially AT LEAST as good as the best spell in your opponents deck- capable of completely negating there strongest spell for only 2 mana. And yes on top of that it still has all of the strengths lowman mentioned. I'm not looking to get into a long draw out back and forth debate about this (I don't have the time) but it does seem like only one side of this argument is being represented on this forum so I figured I'd offer my 2c.
Anyway, with all of that being said I'll be trying my hand at the new blend of 100c but I am not optimistic it will be an enjoyable gaming experience- I'll be engaging in the loam/crucible vs graveyard hate arms race along with the rest of you.
1. Congrats to Booze Mongoose on his victory over the dirty loam decks with Jeskai Tempo Twin (aggro/control); the trophy has been included below Shortly to follow I'll link the CSM event's recording here: CSM 4.01.
2. My argument historically was that to beat 4CBlood (with a non-deliberately built deck to beat it, that lost for instance to a lot of other things at a high rate, but beat this deck at a high rate), or make it so the meta would have balance, we needed to provide high pay off to control and combo decks. This makes 4CB no less viable or more viable (although perhaps now it runs SFM), but made archetypes that are naturally great and predatory decks against the midrange/goodstuff decks more viable and competitive. By making control and combo more viable, you also in turn make aggressive strategies like RDW or WW more viable because these style of decks tend to be the bane of control or combo decks, because they just can't out pace them to their own win con, and their answers while powerful, tend to come too late in the game to make a relevant difference. In turn, with aggro being viable against the decks trying to play control or accomplish broken combos, you make the goodstuff decks a viable choice, because they tend to eat aggressive deck's lunch. Regardless, we voted on the cards, so birthing pod being banned is not a product of it being over used and dominating (although it was likely at that point the most busted card in the format, now that likely goes to Fastbond). 4CB wasn't and isn't a busted deck, it's just very good, there's no one card in it that makes it good, the flexibility and efficiency of the deck is what makes it powerful, like all midrange decks, I have options to play control or go aggressive; this deck's efficiency allows it to make the switch very rapidly, which under the building constraints of the last meta, made it one of the most powerful decks (not saying it can't be beaten, but it was on the top of the pack, by a decent margin for the volume of its presentation in tournament as a ratio of how often it won). So the argument I was getting after was, if we don't want to nerf this deck, because really we couldn't without a litany of bans on cards that are and can be played in a variety of other decks, how do we make viable, in the format, different natural strategies that can consistently beat 4CB, ergo unban cards that make control and combo strategies more powerful. Pod was a casualty of the vote...plain and simple, if we want it back in, then next time we vote, vote to put it back in.
2. In regards to Mana Drain; I acknowledge all, I think what my point was is there are similarities between the bribery vice natural order argument. Mana Drain is the better card, but it is situationally great and always decent (can't complain with a two mana counter), oddly enough in the only other format where it's legal, vintage, it rarely sees play, why because it's a conditionally good card, and when most deck's curves top at 3 mana, or play thorns/chalices/sphere's of resistance, or don't cast many spells at all (dredge), then it's bad. So, I was trying to draw similarities between that earlier argument and MD; however, and what I find ironic, is that in many ways when MD is used in its most optimal way (counter spell/erase their turn and double your own spell casting on the following turn with relevant cards) then it has many similarities to the effects of a resolved natural order for primeval titan (sometimes it goes for craterhoof, but when it does it generally means the game has ended). I've seen a resolved primeval titan on T3-4 be beaten once before, but that was about it, it's one of those plays that just generally wins the game on the spot (or draws all of the opponents resources out to a point at which any follow on resource from the NO caster just wins the game), basically it says stop this now, or lose the game. Which I tend to be fine with, some folks may not be, but I also think that to take a stance that a far more situational card (mana drain) that can have the same effect in another color pie is too good is folly. As we've all said, sometimes it's just counterspell, is counterspell better than natural order, I don't tend to think so, but when you add the fact that it can ramp you, then I'd agree it's a better card. But the fact still remains, you don't get selection with it (like NO), ie you must have relevant cards already in your hand, or draw into them, to make the "ramp" relevant, your opponent must also be playing cards that are capable of generating the necessary mana you would need to capitalize on casting this spell. My point is not that it's a worse card than NO, but that it can have a similar effect on the game, but if as most have said, it's just used as a counterspell, then in that situation the card is doing a lot less work than a resolved NO. The card MD is a higher variance card, NO will work if you put the cards in your deck, MD involves having relevant follow up after casting it, and involves your opponent casting sizable enough cards that it can generate you enough mana to play your own relevant cards--otherwise it's just a counterspell (and most times it is); so I guess I wonder what the fear is of it. In general, this diatribe wasn't for folks that have played with the card for an extended timeframe, it was for the folks that may never have cast it to provide context on how it can and how it generally does effect the game state, if it came off in a condescending way, that wasn't my intent, it was more so to provide my thoughts on the card to players that may have never cast it before or wanted context on how, in it's optimal use, it can be used to shape games. (But Rob, you're right these cards are not that similar, or they're similar in the same way that MD is similar to living death, ie anytime you can cheat on mana advantage (literal in MD's case and something like 20 mana worth of critters for 5 mana invested, plus negating all of theirs etc, yeah LD is a fun card, swings mana advantage more than a Wurm Coil swings combat steps) and selection, you're highly favored)
I think there is likely some unwarranted fear of loam/crucible lock, come and play the new format try it out, run basics, go underneath this strategy, one thing loam doesn't do is win very fast, so aggro will punish it horrifically...and if you want to play midrange good stuff decks, then run them, they'll be great against the aggro decks that are crushing the combo/control decks of the format. The point of it is to balance, some folks think that loam will do horrible things to the format, I tend to think that yes, if you run 4 color midrange decks you'll tend to lose to loam, but it can be beaten by other strategies which are soft to 2,3,4 color midrange decks. In the end it's about balance, and if we find we do not have that, then please vote cards out or back in that are not keeping the format lively and open to multiple different types of play. But the first step is, come and give it a try, Rob I promise WW is still a great deck, Fish can be a strong one too; JohnnyR, RG stompy is still a great deck too, bring it out...I honestly believe anything can win in this meta...but at the same time, I think everything has soft matchups now, which means, sure bad pairings could get you :/, but I think right now you can't just walk in with a best deck and win it everytime. Matter of fact two loam decks lost to Jeskai this last weekend; early threats backed up by disruption will tend to get the job done in this matchup where your opponent requires greater setup time and durdling.
Anyway, just my takes on it, but please come out and try the format out, it's different, but I think in time we'll see in a good way...and if we don't then we'll go back to voting and we can change it.
Thanks guys for the input, and keep it coming if you have the time, I think open discourse is good for the format's growth.
Thanks for your detailed thoughts, I liked reading your post.
Can I ask you: Do you believe that a dedicated Reanimator deck is able to reach a Tier 1 status with our current ban list? How good is this archetype in your German Highlander community?
Mana drain is banned BANNED in legacy yet natural order is completely legal but rarely, if ever sees competitive play.
-Jonny_Rogue
Elves is a reasonably popular deck in Legacy, and Natural Order is usually a 4-of in that deck. It is not a joke or troll deck, but it is definitely a glass cannon. So I don't think it's fair to say that NO rarely if ever sees competitive play in Legacy.
Accidentally deleted CSM 4.01, but managed to catch the game that Stsung was talking about (the mana drain game). Unfortunately, due to other uploading at the time, and a client that had been left on for two days, we had to circle back around and commentate on the recording because during live commentary, well, you'll see, time was a near thing for both players. Specifically, what Stsung is talking about is deliberately going to one's second main phase (when there are not creatures or any other permanents on your board) to resolve your spells; this tends to be a tell that one has mana drain to cover a play, because typically it is more beneficial to have the mana drain mana on your first main, after you've seen an additional card and you've gotten a complete untap. This is not universally true, but it's also a decent bluff as well if you find yourself in a contested permission battle with very little action on board (and an opponent who will play around such things). If you're interested in the mana drain game, it's actually game two in the 3 game match between URMoon (Stsung) and DarkJeskaiTempo (lowman02).
Also, big news, 32 Treasure Chests will be added to the prize pool next week, 16 to winner, 8 to second (if there are finals), with the remainder being split between the X-1s, if we don't have finals then 16 will be split between the X-1s.
ML Berlin!, thank you for all your great work during the last years hosting this tournament. You have kept this great format alive with your enthusiasm and dedication. You did a great job week after week!
Lowman, thanks for taking on the role for the future, you will also be amazing.
Oscar from MTGOCardMarket, thank you for your continued support for our event. We really appreciate your kindness to us. You keep the flame burning strong.
LOL. Yes I seek revenge against mathguy, he coped very impressively against my Warmth and CoP Red! I am out to get him!
Hope everyone is having a good week to this point.
Few brief announcements on the format:
First: Prize support has been expanded, the total prize pool has expanded to 16 tix for every event. This said, winner will take home 8 tix, and the remaining tix will be split between the X-1 players. Thanks again to our great sponsors at MTGOCardMarket.
Second: Voting on the ban listing is still open, we've only had six players cast a ballot. So far there's a lot of cards that are sitting on the fence (50/50 vote). Keep in mind, with only 6 voters, even some of the cards showing 25% voted for them to get in the format are at 50% because two players voted to adopt the German Highlander Banned list (well more voted to adopt it, but then proceeded to vote independently on the cards, but that's alright, at the end we'll count the specific cards that these players believe safe for the format). If 0001 on 8 OCT 17 comes around and all we've had are 6 voters, then we'll go with that majority. So if you want to have a voice in the format please feel free to cast your ballot at: CSM Voting Tool.
Third: Offer is still up, if we hit twenty players this next Saturday then 16 treasure chests are going into the winners circle for added prize pool.
Take it easy you all and if you're into drafting etc, then take a look at that hamtastic gamestate that a deck I drafted in the Ixalan limited format came to (3-0 limited cradle combo :P).
--KB
I think the German highlander banlist has some good things about it, but I would rather not have such a sudden and drastic change. I agree with a lot of it. But I won't vote for changing over the banlist wholesale. There's nothing I feel really needs to be banned, but many things are banned for what seems to me like no good reason. Plenty of these cards are banned in legacy for good reason, but there's a big difference between having 4 in a 60 card deck and having 1 in a 100 card deck. So I propose we unban the following:
Channel
Crucible of Worlds
Demonic Consultation (we already have Tained Pact, which is basically a safer version of this card for many decks)
Entomb
Fastbond
Intuition
Life from the Loam
Lion's Eye Diamond (seriously there is NO reason this should be banned- what are you afraid of?!)
Mana Drain
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Timetwister
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Some of the others I think could be unbanned but I would rather take a more gradual approach.
First off congrats to RobertZdar for his win with Fish today, I've attached the trophy below. Apologies up front, but I finally broke down and had to put a goofy text blurb on the image (like you do at old school tournaments for winners), mostly because I always think of that damn line from Anchorman when I see this card (although I suppose it's a flavor fail in regards to subsequent grenade references, because from what I've seen at least rocket propelled grenades are great fishing devices...anyway).
And now for the announcement on bannings:
First, we will not be adopting the German Highlander Ban list (60% of voters voted against doing so).
On to individual cards and voter percentage support:
1. Birthing Pod (60% favor ban): Birthing Pod is from this point BANNED in the format.
2. Natural Order (40% favor ban): Natural Order remains LEGAL in the format.
3. Channel (50% favor ban): Channel remains BANNED in the format.
4. Crucible of Worlds (70% favor unban): Crucible of Worlds is LEGAL in the format.
5. Demonic Consultation (50% favor unban): Demonic Consultation remains BANNED in the format.
6. Demonic Tutor (30% favor unban): Demonic Tutor remains BANNED in the format.
7. Dig Through Time (60% favor unban): Dig Through Time is LEGAL in the format.
8. Fastbond (60% favor unban): Fastbond is LEGAL in the format.
9. Intuition (77% favor unban [one person did not vote on this card]): Intuition is LEGAL in the format.
10. Life from the Loam (60% favor unban): Life from the Loam is LEGAL in the format.
11. Lion's Eye Diamond (70% favor unban): Lion's Eye Diamond is LEGAL in the format.
12. Mana Drain (55% favor unban): Mana Drain is LEGAL in the format.
13. Memory Jar (70% favor unban): Memory Jar is LEGAL in the format.
14. Merchant Scroll (80% favor unban): Merchant Scroll is LEGAL in the format.
15. Mind's Desire (70% favor unban): Mind's Desire is LEGAL in the format.
16. Mystical Tutor (60% favor unban): Mystical Tutor is LEGAL in the format.
17. Necropotence (60% favor unban): Necropotence is LEGAL in the format.
18. Oath of Druids (40% favor unban): Oath of Druids remains BANNED in the format.
19. Stoneforge Mystic (55% favor unban [one person did not vote on this card]): Stoneforge Mystic is LEGAL in the format.
20. Timetwister (70% favor unban): Timetwister is LEGAL in the format.
21. Tolarian Academy (60% favor unban): Tolarian Academy is LEGAL in the format.
22. Treasure Cruise (60% favor unban): Treasure Cruise is LEGAL in the format.
23. Trinisphere (you old rock you) (90% favor unban): Trinisphere is LEGAL in the format.
24. Wheel of Fortune (50% favor unban): Wheel of Fortune remains BANNED in the format.
25. Windfall (80% favor unban): Windfall is LEGAL in the format.
26. Yawgmoth's Bargain (60% favor unban): Yawgmoth's Bargain is LEGAL in the format.
27. Yawgmoth's Will (40% favor unban): Yawgmoth's Will remains BANNED in the format.
I'll attached the excel sheet that has the #'s without user names for anyone's reference and as means of transparency. If you voted for the German Highlander format ban list and proceeded to put your user name in after that selection, I have gone through and manually inputted your vote for each card in accordance with that ban listing; if you put down you favored the German Highlander Format, but then proceeded to vote for all the cards with a different stance from GHL, then I took your individual card choices over the question #1 in the affirmative.
Pretty decent changes for the format and I think a step in a wider direction with it. Only loss includes Birthing Pod, which stinks but after playing it to some victories this evening, I whole heartedly agree that this tool box machine had to go. Alright guys, appreciate everyone's support, Ixalan is now also legal in the 100CS event, and the banned list will be updated accordingly.
Thanks and take it easy everyone.
--KB
I tend to agree with all of your recommendations, with the exception of entomb. At one point I was a strong supporter of the card, I've been a longtime player of the card in multiple formats, and think it's one of those unique effects that a lot of combo decks (or value decks, sure lands runs gamble in legacy, but it could just as easily run entomb to get Life from the Loam in the gyard if the deck wasn't concerned with using R/G mana to punishing fire out Deathrite Shaman's etc.) really want. I love the card, but I tend to love it more in a format where FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Swords to Plowshares are all multiples in decks. The issue you run into with this card is you're going to get some horrifically variance skewed games, where if my reanimating opponent is on the play, I'll only ever be able to have one mana at my disposal before I'm seeing the best card in their deck on the board (sure there's answers at 1 mana [these are few] and they've spent a lot of resources making this happen), but if that sticks then it's likely game over, ie they're drawing 7, everyone discards their hand, and on and on. I think entomb is a sweet card, but when this is in openers, it's generally going to mean the games over by turn 2. I didn't offer this one up, which may have been my error as it's currently banned in GHL and 100cs. If desired let me know and we reopen the issue on this card or any other that wasn't offered. But, I think the changes detailed above are quite large and we should likely see where these lead us. I definitely think they're all going to give more balance/viability to the format, but we're also looking at a lot more power that we now need to assess and ensure is allowing a good balance etc. Hope this makes sense, and sorry for not having entomb on the ballot; I'll offer it up next time, but strongly think it leads to a lot of dumb games just due to its sheer efficiency, if it was 2 mana then I'd say go nuts with it, 1 is just a dangerous number on CMCs.
Take it easy all.
--KB
Dear chainsaw commmunity, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam are back!
There is an old saying: Careful what you wish for.
Generally you say that when you're trying to warn someone of consequences that you knew about before going into a venture...without spoiling you to much: didn't you promulgate these very two cards for inclusion :P, making this an odd caveat.
CSM matches are up here: CSM 3.52. Enjoy folks and have a good one.
--KB
This season was marked by the strong performance of 4c blood. I call it Abzund/Junzan but no one else does.
4c Blood 11 victories
White Aggro 8
Esper 4
12 victories lowman02
6 dawts
5 The_Sensei
4 robertZDar
4 Michelle_Wong
Champion; Gold Medal; Silver Medal;
3.01 Garlan Esper Selesnya
2 Yokai_ Green Ramp Abzan
3 Yokai_ Green Ramp Abantz
4 lowman02 White W Azorius
5 Michelle_Wong Azorius RDW
6 Yokai_ Green Ramp Bant
7 lowman02 Abzan Green Ramp
8 Sugar_Daddy Sneak&S Green Ramp
9 Michelle_Wong Azorius Izzet
10 totalhate 5c Midrange RUG
11 stsung Esper Azorius
12 dawts Abzund RUG
13 ChaosBlackDoom RDW RUB
14 The_Sensei RUG White W
15 lowman02 White W RDW
16 lowman02 White W Abzan
17 iniksbane White W RUB
18 The_Sensei Bant Mono Black
19 The_Sensei BUG 5c Midrange
20 C4R1S Jund RUB
21 totalhate 5c Midrange Azorius
22 lowman02 Abzan Simic
23 lowman02 BUG Abzund
24 dawts Abzund Azorius
25 dawts Abzund White W
26 dawts Abzund RDW
27 Michelle_Wong Esper Abzund
28 BoozeMongoose BUG Abzund
29 robertZDar White W BUG
30 dawts Abzund BUG
31 dawts Abzund White W
32 lowman02 Esper Mono U
33 lowman02 Abzund RDW
34 Socanelas Green Ramp Azorius
35 littlefield RUB Abzan
36 Golden_Lin White W Azorius
37 lowman02 Reanimator White W
38 mathguy31415 RDW White W
39 lowman02 Abzund White W
40 C4R1S Mardu Green Ramp
41 C4R1S Mardu BUG
42 robertZDar White W Abzund
43 Michelle_Wong Enchantress Esper
44 robertZDar White W Abzund
45 DrPringles 5c Combo BUG
46 The_Sensei Simic Green Ramp
47 lowman02 Abzund Gruul
48 lowman02 Abzund Golgari
49 The_Sensei Abzan White W
50 Socanelas Abzund Enchantress
51 Jonny_Rogue Gruul Abzan
52 robertZDar Mono Blue Abzund
Even poor White Weenie gained a boost from the un-banning (Stoneforge Mystic). And even RDW got something out of the deal too (namely a metagame which will shift away from other aggro and midrange decks and more towards control and combo).
I actually think it got more than you'd think; you just need to be more creative. For instance, what stops enchantress from playing a hermit druid, loam, intuition, and mystical tutor package; this coupled with effects like replenish (etc) could generate vast advantage in very short order. Only requirement would be that you play blue in addition to G/W. Interestingly enough you could also play fastbond and courser which are both very fetchable in the enchantments deck, and generate a lot of advantage with a hermit druid as well. These are just a few ideas though; I'm sure there's tons more that you could figure out with just these few cards...see some of these cards even made your pet deck more consistent and viable
--KB
ML, the first post states that LED is banned whereas it is legal.
I will, too, next time we meet, probably tomorrow.
If I sent you a bad list then I apologize, Sensei's correct, LED is also authorized. I cannot fix the post #1, but when you get the chance to fix it, I'd appreciate it.
Hello all,
Not sure if anyone else has had the chance to brew at all under the new ban list but I've been putting up a few videos and a deck tech on a Sultai Loam Control deck that is pretty cool and now viable in the format: BUG Loam Deck Tech.
Enjoy folks and look forward to seeing everyone this weekend
KB
Had an interesting conversation with another player in regards to one of the cards specifically unbanned (not the one I would think would be cause for greatest concern): Mana Drain.
Over the time I've spent musing and exploring this way of playing the game with you all, I've heard many folks equate Bribery to Natural Order. In an earlier post, I spoke to how I personally think this view of the card is wrong, excepting that if you're playing a Natural Order deck, then Bribery, when presented by the opposition, would appear in many ways to be a slightly less efficient Natural Order. The basis of my argument was that while Bribery is the best thing you can be doing against decks running Primeval Titan or even--gulp--more robust creature packages, typically it's getting something far more tamed in nature--maybe a utility creature or maybe something horrifically bad--like the top end of a RDW deck--Hellrider/Hero of Oxid Ridge. My point was Natural Order is a far more "natural" (consistent) card to play in ones deck, which should be built to benefit from it, more so than Bribery which is conditional on something you do not control--your pairing and what your opponent decided to bring to the table.
Off of my tangent, and back to Mana Drain, I think this card foments gamestates very akin to those generated by Natural Order, although both vary in function for how they get there.
1. Mana Drain is a higher upside card than Natural Order--it is more powerful--The highest upside application of mana drain is that you effectively stop an opponent's turn and prevent their board development or progress of win condition for a full turn cycle and also double your expected growth or progression of your own board or win condition. In terms of other cards actions, mana drain in its optimal use is time walk + drain power. However, mana drain, similar to bribery, requires your opposition to take action or have made decisions, in regards to building, prior to the game ever starting. If for instance my opponent is casting Savannah Lions or Monastery Swiftspear every turn, well, all my mana drain will ever be is a counterspell with at most nominal impact on the game (I'd probably rather dig for an answer to the board as opposed to leaving up permission...because at this point the board is already beating me and an apt opponent won't play into obvious permission when they can already win the game with the resources they've exposed to risk). The other downside to Mana Drain is that it relies on the user of it, to have resources available in hand to utilize the gained opportunity (mana) to present a sizable threat(s) or progression of the gamestate (i.e. if I have a fist full of counter magic and draw into more, then realistically, I've just cast counterspell to gain myself no advantage other than an additional draw step and freedom from whatever game impacting card my opponent attempted to resolve).
Natural Order can get many cards; however, if you are running it and have put impactful cards into your deck that can be tutored with this spell, then the ability to receive the card's benefits are only limited by your own decision making, not the actions of your opponent or their building decisions/deck choice prior to the event (there are obviously cases such as aven mindcensor or containment priest that can limit this cards capability, but the argument is one a priori of any extended exchange of cards, to include other permission or disruption).
Both of these cards will tend to generate a similar gamestate if used optimally--Natural Order is a 1-2 exchange, however, you'd be hard pressed to argue that 9/10 times, it will get a Primeval Titan, which is itself an immediate 3-1 upon resolution...and if it attacks--well I think you get the picture.
I would never say that mana drain is a less powerful card than natural order; it wouldn't be true. However, the card's inclusion in a deck comes at a cost of variance: 1. What is my opponent playing and can this card reach its potential? and 2. Can my deck effectively capitalize on the opportunity of a sizable mana endowment on the turn following this card's resolution? So Mana Drain is a far more variance laden card and comes at a greater cost to your deck's consistency; in many games it takes great effort to set this card up to optimize fulfillment of its potential, whereas, natural order will play out the same every time when it resolves, as long as you're playing the right cards, and you haven't had the misfortune of drawing them while trying to set up your NO turn.
Just some thoughts on the changing format and some ideas on how to evaluate Mana Drain, specifically if you haven't had the opportunity to play with it historically or in some other format.
Hope it helps guys and see you all this afternoon/evening.
Take it easy now.
--KB
P.S.-Just noticed the flavor text on the new iconic masters art linked to the Mana Drain card names above...pretty funny because this text also describes the difference between both cards in function...although I would say that there is a force equal to preparation, especially in a game involving 100 distinct cards, variance, sometimes you just draw the good stuff
But even that comparison makes more sense than comparing NO to Mana Drain. One turns a creature into the best one in your deck, and the other is just a counterspell with potentially huge upside and no downside. They're similar to the extent that every good card is similar to every other good card in that they make you more likely to win, but that's about it.
Have fun today, unfortunately I won't be able to make it.
breakdown a few post above from the results of last season, how often was the winner packing birthing pod in their deck or natural order for the matter? I haven't crunched the numbers so I really don't know. But shouldn't the criteria for a banning be a cards complete dominance to the point of warping the format? That would be reflected in the frequency of the winning decks, right? Let me also say as a green player the banning of pod (and even potentially natural order) doesn't actually bother me nearly as much as the unbanning of far more broken and oppressive cards. Like fastbond, Necropotence, loam, crucible, and mana drain. Wow.
As far as mana drain vs natural order. I would argue you have to look no further than the legacy format to see which is considered more powerful by wotc and the pros. Mana drain is banned BANNED in legacy yet natural order is completely legal but rarely, if ever sees competitive play. Another important strength of mana drain left unmentioned is that as a defensive spell it is potentially AT LEAST as good as the best spell in your opponents deck- capable of completely negating there strongest spell for only 2 mana. And yes on top of that it still has all of the strengths lowman mentioned. I'm not looking to get into a long draw out back and forth debate about this (I don't have the time) but it does seem like only one side of this argument is being represented on this forum so I figured I'd offer my 2c.
Anyway, with all of that being said I'll be trying my hand at the new blend of 100c but I am not optimistic it will be an enjoyable gaming experience- I'll be engaging in the loam/crucible vs graveyard hate arms race along with the rest of you.
-Jonny_Rogue
As the RDW player in the format, what is your perspective on the new changes to the banlist?
1. Congrats to Booze Mongoose on his victory over the dirty loam decks with Jeskai Tempo Twin (aggro/control); the trophy has been included below Shortly to follow I'll link the CSM event's recording here: CSM 4.01.
2. My argument historically was that to beat 4CBlood (with a non-deliberately built deck to beat it, that lost for instance to a lot of other things at a high rate, but beat this deck at a high rate), or make it so the meta would have balance, we needed to provide high pay off to control and combo decks. This makes 4CB no less viable or more viable (although perhaps now it runs SFM), but made archetypes that are naturally great and predatory decks against the midrange/goodstuff decks more viable and competitive. By making control and combo more viable, you also in turn make aggressive strategies like RDW or WW more viable because these style of decks tend to be the bane of control or combo decks, because they just can't out pace them to their own win con, and their answers while powerful, tend to come too late in the game to make a relevant difference. In turn, with aggro being viable against the decks trying to play control or accomplish broken combos, you make the goodstuff decks a viable choice, because they tend to eat aggressive deck's lunch. Regardless, we voted on the cards, so birthing pod being banned is not a product of it being over used and dominating (although it was likely at that point the most busted card in the format, now that likely goes to Fastbond). 4CB wasn't and isn't a busted deck, it's just very good, there's no one card in it that makes it good, the flexibility and efficiency of the deck is what makes it powerful, like all midrange decks, I have options to play control or go aggressive; this deck's efficiency allows it to make the switch very rapidly, which under the building constraints of the last meta, made it one of the most powerful decks (not saying it can't be beaten, but it was on the top of the pack, by a decent margin for the volume of its presentation in tournament as a ratio of how often it won). So the argument I was getting after was, if we don't want to nerf this deck, because really we couldn't without a litany of bans on cards that are and can be played in a variety of other decks, how do we make viable, in the format, different natural strategies that can consistently beat 4CB, ergo unban cards that make control and combo strategies more powerful. Pod was a casualty of the vote...plain and simple, if we want it back in, then next time we vote, vote to put it back in.
2. In regards to Mana Drain; I acknowledge all, I think what my point was is there are similarities between the bribery vice natural order argument. Mana Drain is the better card, but it is situationally great and always decent (can't complain with a two mana counter), oddly enough in the only other format where it's legal, vintage, it rarely sees play, why because it's a conditionally good card, and when most deck's curves top at 3 mana, or play thorns/chalices/sphere's of resistance, or don't cast many spells at all (dredge), then it's bad. So, I was trying to draw similarities between that earlier argument and MD; however, and what I find ironic, is that in many ways when MD is used in its most optimal way (counter spell/erase their turn and double your own spell casting on the following turn with relevant cards) then it has many similarities to the effects of a resolved natural order for primeval titan (sometimes it goes for craterhoof, but when it does it generally means the game has ended). I've seen a resolved primeval titan on T3-4 be beaten once before, but that was about it, it's one of those plays that just generally wins the game on the spot (or draws all of the opponents resources out to a point at which any follow on resource from the NO caster just wins the game), basically it says stop this now, or lose the game. Which I tend to be fine with, some folks may not be, but I also think that to take a stance that a far more situational card (mana drain) that can have the same effect in another color pie is too good is folly. As we've all said, sometimes it's just counterspell, is counterspell better than natural order, I don't tend to think so, but when you add the fact that it can ramp you, then I'd agree it's a better card. But the fact still remains, you don't get selection with it (like NO), ie you must have relevant cards already in your hand, or draw into them, to make the "ramp" relevant, your opponent must also be playing cards that are capable of generating the necessary mana you would need to capitalize on casting this spell. My point is not that it's a worse card than NO, but that it can have a similar effect on the game, but if as most have said, it's just used as a counterspell, then in that situation the card is doing a lot less work than a resolved NO. The card MD is a higher variance card, NO will work if you put the cards in your deck, MD involves having relevant follow up after casting it, and involves your opponent casting sizable enough cards that it can generate you enough mana to play your own relevant cards--otherwise it's just a counterspell (and most times it is); so I guess I wonder what the fear is of it. In general, this diatribe wasn't for folks that have played with the card for an extended timeframe, it was for the folks that may never have cast it to provide context on how it can and how it generally does effect the game state, if it came off in a condescending way, that wasn't my intent, it was more so to provide my thoughts on the card to players that may have never cast it before or wanted context on how, in it's optimal use, it can be used to shape games. (But Rob, you're right these cards are not that similar, or they're similar in the same way that MD is similar to living death, ie anytime you can cheat on mana advantage (literal in MD's case and something like 20 mana worth of critters for 5 mana invested, plus negating all of theirs etc, yeah LD is a fun card, swings mana advantage more than a Wurm Coil swings combat steps) and selection, you're highly favored)
I think there is likely some unwarranted fear of loam/crucible lock, come and play the new format try it out, run basics, go underneath this strategy, one thing loam doesn't do is win very fast, so aggro will punish it horrifically...and if you want to play midrange good stuff decks, then run them, they'll be great against the aggro decks that are crushing the combo/control decks of the format. The point of it is to balance, some folks think that loam will do horrible things to the format, I tend to think that yes, if you run 4 color midrange decks you'll tend to lose to loam, but it can be beaten by other strategies which are soft to 2,3,4 color midrange decks. In the end it's about balance, and if we find we do not have that, then please vote cards out or back in that are not keeping the format lively and open to multiple different types of play. But the first step is, come and give it a try, Rob I promise WW is still a great deck, Fish can be a strong one too; JohnnyR, RG stompy is still a great deck too, bring it out...I honestly believe anything can win in this meta...but at the same time, I think everything has soft matchups now, which means, sure bad pairings could get you :/, but I think right now you can't just walk in with a best deck and win it everytime. Matter of fact two loam decks lost to Jeskai this last weekend; early threats backed up by disruption will tend to get the job done in this matchup where your opponent requires greater setup time and durdling.
Anyway, just my takes on it, but please come out and try the format out, it's different, but I think in time we'll see in a good way...and if we don't then we'll go back to voting and we can change it.
Thanks guys for the input, and keep it coming if you have the time, I think open discourse is good for the format's growth.
Loam Crushing (RDW 2-1, WW 2-1)
Take care
--KB
Thanks for your detailed thoughts, I liked reading your post.
Can I ask you: Do you believe that a dedicated Reanimator deck is able to reach a Tier 1 status with our current ban list? How good is this archetype in your German Highlander community?
Elves is a reasonably popular deck in Legacy, and Natural Order is usually a 4-of in that deck. It is not a joke or troll deck, but it is definitely a glass cannon. So I don't think it's fair to say that NO rarely if ever sees competitive play in Legacy.
Accidentally deleted CSM 4.01, but managed to catch the game that Stsung was talking about (the mana drain game). Unfortunately, due to other uploading at the time, and a client that had been left on for two days, we had to circle back around and commentate on the recording because during live commentary, well, you'll see, time was a near thing for both players. Specifically, what Stsung is talking about is deliberately going to one's second main phase (when there are not creatures or any other permanents on your board) to resolve your spells; this tends to be a tell that one has mana drain to cover a play, because typically it is more beneficial to have the mana drain mana on your first main, after you've seen an additional card and you've gotten a complete untap. This is not universally true, but it's also a decent bluff as well if you find yourself in a contested permission battle with very little action on board (and an opponent who will play around such things). If you're interested in the mana drain game, it's actually game two in the 3 game match between URMoon (Stsung) and DarkJeskaiTempo (lowman02).
Here's the games: URMoon vs DarkJeskaiTempo
Also, big news, 32 Treasure Chests will be added to the prize pool next week, 16 to winner, 8 to second (if there are finals), with the remainder being split between the X-1s, if we don't have finals then 16 will be split between the X-1s.
Enjoy guys.
--KB