I support ML Berlin in that Lackey should be legal but Piledriver should be banned. If you understand his underlying philosophy, it's basically that he doesn't want a deck to win before turn 4. Lackey is objectively more powerful than Piledriver as a turn 1 threat is much more difficult to deal with than a turn 2 threat and Lackey is more consistently powerful. However, Lackey does not enable a turn 3 kill. At best, it enables a Siege-Gang to be dropped turn 2, followed up by a Lord turn 3. Between lackey, siege-gang, and the lord that is 1 damage done on turn 2, and 12 on turn 3. While that is certainly powerful, it provides an opportunity to respond with Engineered Plague for example. I accept this underlying philosophy.
However, if the philosophy behind the bans is primarily to prevent decks capable of winning turn 3 or earlier from existing, then it must unambiguously be the case that Misthollow Griffin, Hypergenesis, and Dark Ritual be legal. I don't have a problem with the philosophy, provided that it is consistent.
I dug this up on my journey for enlightenment. There is talk of goblins and talk of other things but I bolded what interested me the most. It seems that when banning a turn 4 format was atleast somewhat a goal from before.
Ironically the way of thinking from before was also, we dont want a turn 4 format, and we don't want a UW control turn 40 format even more. The flaw in logic is that they removed all the viable ways to prevent turn 2 and 3 wins trying to create a format where "No" was not being said. We have unwound the Swords to Plowshares banning from before which helps, more may be needed if we want a balance.
Guys, like I said, I would announce the door prize winner from event 10.113 here (last sunday). The winner was Generalissimo.
As for what littlefield said in the post above, I will wait to see if anybody wishes to reply before answering myself.
I fully agree with his setiment... 6 months ago I thought cephalid was fine 6 months later we have So many more CIP untapped lands and with pain lands coming in next rotation Ceph went from a turn 3 deck to a turn 2 deck. For the same reason Invig is gone and the same reason Ooze is gone I think ceph should go too.....
Now as to the future of this format We are at a impasse here with the price drops and how much stuff will come in next rotation. You can either A just say **** it and leave everything unbanned and even unban more Zuran orb and Dark Ritual I still believe both would be slower than what we already have and if anything Dark ritual sets up ways to beat ceph. Turn 1 ritual Engineered plague is GG vs ceph.
Or B you can do what WOTC did with modern. and just ban everything broken and work backwards if needed.
IE ban Ceph, Ban Hymn maybe ban something from mono red and ban everything else that comes close to winning before turn 4 while also making sure control cannot take over games in the now slower format. IE ban cloudpost if needed.
I would like to lean more towards the first option however I still believe that hymn and ceph both need to go. and that piledriver/ritual/zuran orb/misthollow Even DOJ are all weaker than decks we currently have the format.
I'm not sure any lands helped the Cephalid deck, but I agree with everything else TheUsualSuspect said in his last post. Even if just for one rotation we either ban Hymn, or unban Invigorate, it would be interesting to see how the meta responds. I for one am still uncertain UW control would be the terror it was (holica can weigh in, looking back through this thread it seems his deck was the one to beat), since there are so many combos that have blue to keep control in check. I'm not an aggro player, but it seems like the only viable aggro deck after next rotation will be mono-red if Infect does not get Invigorate, and I'm not sure that's good either? I think a major difference between many players and TLR on this is whether infect is really a turn 2 terror that is unbeatable, but we currently do not know that for sure.
I'm not sure any lands helped the Cephalid deck, but I agree with everything else TheUsualSuspect said in his last post. Even if just for one rotation we either ban Hymn, or unban Invigorate, it would be interesting to see how the meta responds. I for one am still uncertain UW control would be the terror it was (holica can weigh in, looking back through this thread it seems his deck was the one to beat), since there are so many combos that have blue to keep control in check. I'm not an aggro player, but it seems like the only viable aggro deck after next rotation will be mono-red if Infect does not get Invigorate, and I'm not sure that's good either? I think a major difference between many players and TLR on this is whether infect is really a turn 2 terror that is unbeatable, but we currently do not know that for sure.
I left Invig off my List of cards that would be slower than what we currently have for a reason. I don't feel invig being unbanned is a good thing for the same reason I think Ceph with the new lands will be broken.. As I said the deck goldfishes turn 2 as much as Ceph... while also being able to go turn 3 or turn 4 after sitting back on counters if your not playing vs a deck you need to race... TLDR Infect is the total package Ceph is a 1 trick pony.
Again my list of cards on banned list that would make 0 difference if unbanned because we already have decks that are faster/better than anything they would make.
Zuran Orb (1 trick pony in a restore balance deck)
Dark ritual (no entomb= not fast enough to matter doesn't fit into any current combo deck, MBC would run it as 4x and maybe a suicide black deck but nothing faster than t3)
Tendrils (would give eggs a kill but still be turn 4 deck) Might be too strong in high tide if it could get black mana.
Worldgorger dragon (if your gonna leave turn 2 Blow your load combo's in with ceph why not just unban dragon its just as easy to stop and needs more cards to go off than ceph)
Decree of Justice (White sun zenith is 100% supior and control is so bad right now the only time DOJ ever was broken was in control Mirrors and I mean i'd rather have a mirror breaker than 60 min game 1's)
Misthollow Griffen (we have a better version of it already and its seeing 0 play)
Sword of the Meek (even if it ever came into price the combo isnt fast enough to matter in our format)
PileDriver (Goblins are bad. Goblins are slow RDW right now is 1 turn faster than even the best goblin draw) Fecundity goblins is the only viable goblin deck and it would not even run it.
Counterspell (if hymn is not too broken for the format counterspell isn't)
Fact or Fiction. I think I was wrong.... Although I 100% believed what I said at the time and I think that Berlin should have banned FOF back in the day to stop UW control when it was the God deck. Right now FOF might just be a turn too slow to matter.... (although Counterspell and FOF could never both be unbanned together)
As to lands Any ceph deck I ran would have 4x yavimaya coast.. Sylvan tutor is just too good to not run and I 100% believe the newer lists that are ran are inferior to the list i ran when I ran it 3 color. UGW Ceph is in my opinion 100% the Superior version. Eventually aether hub will drop in price as kaladesh is mass opened and when it does its a 4x in any ceph deck too. If you want me to bring back my version and win a couple events I can.... Its just the deck is so boring... But if its the best deck in the format and Yavimaya coast comes into the format I will run the deck and win a event or 2 to show what I mean.
I didn't start advocating for Cephalid getting a ban because it won, that is clearly selective quoting to twist my words and escape the conversation, but sure let's argue. My reasoning for supporting Cephalid getting a ban after saying it isn't too overpowered is because I don't buy the argument that TLR and TheUsualSuspect somehow built an Infect deck that was too unstoppable on turn 2, and I know from speaking with other players I'm not the only one who thinks so. My argument for Hymn getting a ban was word for word the same argument you made for banning Fact or Fiction, I wanted to open a discussion on why if 2 cards that can make it difficult for the opponent to win after they resolve, the higher mana cost gets banned. If FoF was the best card advantage card, Hymn has to be it now. You say it was banned to prevent UW control from returning, but it did not seem (non-statistically) that UW control was not at all oppressive in the previous rotation, so why was it deserving of a ban?
As a final note, if every time people want to have an open discussion you speak down to them like children, you'll soon not have enough people to keep this format going...
I didn't start advocating for Cephalid getting a ban because it won, that is clearly selective quoting to twist my words and escape the conversation, but sure let's argue. My reasoning for supporting Cephalid getting a ban after saying it isn't too overpowered is because I don't buy the argument that TLR and TheUsualSuspect somehow built an Infect deck that was too unstoppable on turn 2, and I know from speaking with other players I'm not the only one who thinks so. My argument for Hymn getting a ban was word for word the same argument you made for banning Fact or Fiction, I wanted to open a discussion on why if 2 cards that can make it difficult for the opponent to win after they resolve, the higher mana cost gets banned. If FoF was the best card advantage card, Hymn has to be it now. You say it was banned to prevent UW control from returning, but it did not seem (non-statistically) that UW control was not at all oppressive in the previous rotation, so why was it deserving of a ban?
As a final note, if every time people want to have an open discussion you speak down to them like children, you'll soon not have enough people to keep this format going...
I lost on friday to infect beating me on turn 2 on the play..... This was with invig banned.
We didn't build some OP deck all we did was take the current Infect deck that currently is played and makes top 4 and add 4x invig and watch as the 10% chance to win on turn 2/3 became a 50% chance. If you want msg me on MTGO Ill show you the deck I had and you can play against it and see what I mean. Its not the fact that it can win turn 2 its the fact that Infect is already a equal deck to Ceph (when built right). and adding Invig to that made the deck something that if you didn't have multiple removal spells on turn 2/3 you just lost. While also having the ability to play a long game... Like my INFECT version was alot less Suicide compared to TLR's my INFECT version didn't go for the turn 2 kill my Infect version ran 10x maindeck counters. Countered every thing you did to threaten my hand/creatures then on turn 3/4 just swung for 15+infect while I was holding a open counter.
Again though I 100% agree with you that as of late this format has turned from a fun format into more of an arms race. With MBC/splinter twins/high tide/ceph/mono red all winning or taking away your ability to win by turn 4. and maybe the format could use being slowed down a turn splinter/tide/mono red are all just this side of Fair atm MBC and Ceph maybe not so. even zoo and jund decks right now (decks that were the #1 and #2 deck just a few rotations ago are now just too slow). Either that or unban everything and lets arm race.
My post was not advocating a cephalid ban. I was looking for clarification on what constitutes a ban for this particular format. I was unsure if it is based on power level, or fun factor, or the avg kill turn of the fastest combo? It seems sometimes in the past they banned based on decks that could put together a reasonable amount of turn 3 kills, i dont know what % they used as the threshold. At other times it seemed like whatever won for more than a few times would get a ban to mix things up again.
One thing I do feel should be open to all players whether thru announcements during the tournaments or beforehand on this thread: I do not like the idea of preemptive banning without it being widely known beforehand, this would allow others to chime in, share data, fears, pros/cons, etc. While I am still pretty sure invigorate was going to be a problem(i was testing it also), it would have been fun to atleast get to see how broke we could have made it, and then the inevitable metagaming among the infect players. I don't think it is fair to punish the players who are willing to prepare in advance for the format by stripping them of the time and even cost they put into decks anticipating new cards. I am not saying that they can ever count on a card being legal at a rotation, but I have found that just following market trends I have identified most of the stronger coming rotations and was able to pick them up before the rush to change decks.
Yavimaya coast came in with the last rotation, so you can already be playing that one if you want. Already was used in a top 4 UG infect that was played once earlier this season along with the other UG lands that rotated in.
My post was not advocating a cephalid ban. I was looking for clarification on what constitutes a ban for this particular format. I was unsure if it is based on power level, or fun factor, or the avg kill turn of the fastest combo?
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Perhaps the fact that after you said it some of the others said "cephalid has to go", I perceived all the posts as asking for a ban. Do you think it should be banned, though?
One thing I do feel should be open to all players whether thru announcements during the tournaments or beforehand on this thread: I do not like the idea of preemptive banning without it being widely known beforehand, this would allow others to chime in, share data, fears, pros/cons, etc. (...) I don't think it is fair to punish the players who are willing to prepare in advance for the format by stripping them of the time and even cost they put into decks anticipating new cards.
Noted. It wasn't my intention to punish anyone. I also had to buy the cards to test them myself and after some crafting and adjustment I decided to remove them, so effectively I lost that time and tix, but I didn't thought of the impact on the other players.
What I do disagree though, is letting a card I believe is broken, just to see what will happen. If there is a wrong evaluation, that's one thing, but letting a broken card pass is another.
I am of the opinion that some cards should be unbanned, Either counterspell of Fact of Fiction(both at first would be a big change and i understand that, I feel that both would be fine, but understand a one or the other start), Misthollow Griffin, Decree of Justice, Goblin Piledriver, Zuran Orb all seem out of place as bans if we are allowing the cards we have now. I think that cephalid is very close to being bannable but at the current time I would allow it and Hymn to tourach if one of the blue answers comes back into the format. (*note that I think cephalid is fine, but that is also assuming that we are ok with a turn 3ish format. If we were looking for no turn 2 kills we would need to ban one of its must have cards and berserk)
Yeah I understand not wanting something too broken in the format and if that is the stance to be taken I understand. I would like as I asked just to try to include others in the process if possible. Just asking for feedback in the tournament chatroom or here a few weeks before rotation should be more than sufficient. That would let you get a feel for what others think about a broken card and open up discussion which may lead you to a card you have missed. I don't think anyone is going to be purposefully withholding broken cards they are working on if they are truly a problem. Just a little discussion this time showed that several people have already been watching the market and have been working on the new land denial packages that orzhov offers, and I am sure they are also working on solution decks to those and the other current problems.
Glacial Fortress is most likely rotating back into the format also, around 40 copies sitting on mtgotraders under 40cents currently. Guess its time to fill up my playset.
I seen a player suggesting Yavimaya Coast and Personal Tutor for the cephalid deck. Personal tutor is interesting but blue, did I miss the green addition that was being alluded to? Regrowth effect maybe? Groundseal in the sideboard with a fair plan after?
In terms of Blue/control unbans, if Hymn stays I think FoF should be unbanned. I would not run it, but it is better than counterspell for battling that deck. Counterspell vs Mana Leak comes up almost exclusively vs High Tide and Cloudpost since the format is fairly fast. I'd like to see both unbanned, but FoF would be better to give control decks recovery vs the midrange decks that run Hymn.
Even if bushwhacker stays, I would advocate for RDW not receiving a ban. I've stated before, I think of it similar to cube building where having a powerful aggressive red deck keeps combo/control decks at a high level of efficiency. I know not everyone would agree, but if bushwhacker rotates out I would like to see Invigorate unbanned mainly to keep aggro decks at a high level of efficiency, demanding answers. But maybe infect as is already hits that requirement.
My vote for Zuran Orb would be to unban it and see what happens.
After seeing CAWblade back (AND THE POWER OF SPELL PIERCE in my deck) I think that i'm again flip flopping like a politician.
Hymn is fine in our format and if ceph and hymn were both banned that CawBlade deck is the real deal..... I wouldn't unban FoF or Counterspell just for fear of making cawblade even more broken. cause that deck just takes control of any "fair" deck in the games ive watched. Its not "broken" to the point of banning but its definitly a new tier 1 deck for sure.
Now again we put 2 copies of Ceph into top 4.... My only loss was to the other ceph My Version is about 1/2 turn slower than the suicide version I mana screwed game 1 He turn 2'ed me game 3. My version is built to beat the field as you could see from watching my deck my version of ceph has more answers with tutoring up answers and is not always stopped by graveyard removal I went off through 3x Tormod's crypt's today. Only thing I scopped to was a Engineered plague and that was cause I didn't sideboard in my Enchantment removal vs black being a idiot. I won game 3 removing his hate and through a tormod's.
TLDR I'm still all for banning ceph and Unbanning some things But I think after running 4x Spell pierce maindeck and more counters Sideboard (spell pierce was one of my MVP cards today and I will start running it 4x in alot more blue decks). I think that Hymn might just be ok and I'd be more scared of removing it and having to ban a deck like cawblade out down the road... Blue decks has Spell Pierce, everyone has dodecapod, GW decks have smiter (and soon to be wilt-leaf liege)
BUT CEPHALID NEEDS TO GO... The deck is way too consistant when you start running tutors and counters and silences. You yourself made the argument a few pages back that bans happen for multiple reasons not always based off the power of a card.. In Cephalids case Even if you feel its not too broken (which I disagree with) it is a fragile combo and might be beatable as you say... but I just feel its unhealthy in the format and I think we would have a better format with it gone and outside you I don't think anyone would miss getting turned 2'ed by it... I know I won't and I play the deck.
As to Mono Red I only mentioned banning something in mono red if you were slowing the format or if fireblast came back in. Mono Red is fine right now.
so first I have to do it
"ARE YOU CONVINCED?"
Now onto my real post
After seeing CAWblade back (AND THE POWER OF SPELL PIERCE in my deck) I think that i'm again flip flopping like a politician.
TLDR I'm still all for banning ceph and Unbanning some things ..... but I just feel its unhealthy in the format and I think we would have a better format with it gone and outside you I don't think anyone would miss getting turned 2'ed by it... I know I won't and I play the deck.
-Cephalid, The version that I read about today certainly looked like having the "usual" sideboard cards wasnt going to just cut it. He hit a nail on a head though, no one likes losing on turn 2. You can have whatever sideboard card you want but some hands are very keepable but may require a come into play tapped land. Just having to mulligan to 6 because your opponent may play cephalid on a given week since they didnt win the week prior is awkward. This could probably go one more rotation to see how the new control decks pan out and how more decks not having the first land come in tapped works out, but it could be 3 more months of bad feelings. Im voting neutral on this one, but definitely "heavily watched"
-Hymn probably feels the same way when you lose, but thats jsut because people don't complain about the times they get hymn'd once and go on to still win with the early threat they deployed. They just feel the bitter pain that is getting your one combo piece pulled or 2 of the 3 lands you kept so wisely in your opening hand. The numbers don't really support a hymn ban. It is never actually ending the game on the 2nd or 3rd turn by itself.
I am glad a reasonable control deck came along, I havnet played against it yet, but i wasnt even sure anything based on UW control was viable at the time. Giving that deck and other blue based decks FoF should further show that hymn is a great card but not overpowered when effective recovery spells are in the format.
While this is not enough data in the format Penny Dreadful both Hymn and Fact of Fiction are legal, in the first event the FoF deck ruled the day. Historically hymn has had a few times to shine but they are almost always a 2nd tier or metagame special strategy. (Outside of the Necro days)
-Zuran orb is probably going to give me fits in play, but whatever its got some utility but we can always come back if something breaks it.
-I was all for Misthollow being unbanned but I asked for someone to show me something and I saw a glimpse, I am in the corner of leave Eternal Scourge for now, and have both cards be monitored for potential ban or unban.
-FOF/Counterspell I am probably only person who wants both unbanned, it is likely that I may play a psychatog at some event if that ever happens to get it out of my system. In all other circumstances I am probably the least likely player to ever play counterspell in a deck, and I promise my FoF splits will be fun for everyone(not you though)
-Invigorate remains banned? Until atleast a few more good mana options come into play untapped I am against turn 2 format. I don't mind a little speed and exciting game play, and think deck building should answer problems, but not wanting to be just a mono color linear shouldnt mean you have to play with a mana disadvantage against the field.
-Decree of Justice didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned or put in the same "under watch" that I would put the griffin/scourge on.
-Goblin Piledriver didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned hope that someone makes it seem like we should be watching it, but that is unlikely without some more cards coming into the price range that power it up.
-Dark Ritual didnt make the TLR list, keep it banned even the fun decks are so high variance with this card, and the ones that only i find fun are devious. I love this card but the variance and power level are extreme.
I played a worse version of Eureka trying to fit in All Hallow's Eve as it's the last event I'll likely play before the holiday. I just wanted to say I lost at least two games to spell pierce effects because I wasn't playing around it. The first time truly caught me off guard, and I was told afterwords my opponent also had swan song, so there wasn't much I could do about that one. In a later match vs Deonmag, I had 3 extra lands in play and could have made a land drop for the turn. I had been holding a Tolarian Winds, and I thought to myself I'm good to resolve this Eureka through spell pierce OR Mana leak... so I'll just keep the land as a card in hand that I can discard to the winds. Of course I get hit by spell pierce AND Miscalculation, then I lost. So spell pierce was an MVP for multiple people this weekend.
As for Cephalid , I'll probably try to find a deck that can sideboard Planar Void.
Out of curiosity, do we know why Zuran Orb was banned originally? Looking at the amazing synergy with Splendid Reclamation right now, could even do a Sultai self mill deck. I'm looking forward to confusing the cephalid and cawbladeless players with my sundial deck, could have some serious game against the cawbladeless. Considering the current builds of both, hymn decks may want to consider some Planar Void sideboard rather than Faerie Macabre, but as was pointed out above, Spell Pierce (and to a lesser extent Swan Song) are some of the most powerful spells in the current meta, so maybe a UB build could see success.
Edit: I haven't played against it yet, but are you proposing Esper for the Eternal Scourge/Lost Legacy? If not, then you'll need to find some cards to replace the Moorland Haunt synergy. Also I figure Manipulate Fate stays useful late game to remove lands from the deck, however Lost Legacy could steal win cons.
Ok, I gotta admit that your version is more resilient than mine. And I really enjoied that build, so, point taken. It's a shame you created such a wonderful piece of art only to make it banned.
But I gotta ask: with the appearance of this Caw-Scourge-Exile-thingy, what decks can beat it if cephalid leaves? I know the deck is new and people haven't had much time to come up with answers, but it seems to me that fast combo decks are it's natural predator. Linear and fair decks hardly stand a chance against the new deck, and against control decks it has a lot more recursion so I don't see how that goes in favor of the straight control deck.
Also, you have a point in unbanning more weapons to the new cawbladeless deck. Let's not forget that Misthollow Griffin is banned because of this deck. We'll have to watch this one closely.
ps: I love the fact that you guys can come up with such great decks, but can you guys keep it down in order for fair decks to have a chance?
Edit: Littlefield, I wanted to post something before yesterday's event so some cards weren't included in my post because of different reasons. DoJ, I don't know how to feel about this. Piledriver I forgot to include. Dark Ritual, not gonna happen. I won't unban it.
Edit2: As it looks right now, Piledriver is expensive for the format. And about the Eternal Scourge deck, would it be possible to build a black version with Lost Legacy? The deck would gain maindeck cards against combos, like twin and against control with few finishers.
I think cawblade is beatable. I think black decks with hymn can possibly get far enough ahead early (we saw it lose to BR today albeit on time but the BR deck was 2 turns from winning. Uh GW decks and zoo with stuff like smiter and such could probably find a way too (BLOODBRAID IS COMING BACK SOON!!!!!) and sideboard cards to stop the recursion with the land (Pithing Needle is rotating back in!!!!!!!) I think Combo like high tide/splinter can start running counters to protect themselves while going off (Which also slows the deck a turn or so Which is not a bad thing Look at IRL legacy. every control deck runs 4-8x Duress/sieze/cabal therapy) and some even run counters. That is what keep them in check. If force of will was ever banned in legacy it would turn into turn 2 kill format and people wouldn't run anything but combo. I'm beginning to think Cawblade/Hymn might actually be our FOW's.. is hymn broken yes. but it keeps people honest and I think more combo decks will start running counter distruption (duress/counters)
Also If someone builds Mono red "the right way" I think a true Mono red burn deck (WITH VEHICLES) could be viable in this format and is a deck like cawblades natural enemy. I mean you can take control of the board all you want but eventually you run out of counters for a bolt to the face every turn. IE blistering firecat/that new vehicle that hits the turn it comes into play/hellspark/burn spells and just being Mono red burn.
and i'm not discounting the deck we have now suicide red I think if Cawblade came up against suicide red and suicide red wins the dice roll it wins the game. if it loses the dice roll it still wins the game if cawblade doesn't drop a t3 scourge.
Also as to bans Zuran orb is a really good card. and will help makes eggs better. 4x zuran orb to sac your lands before second sunrise. but its not good enough to stay banned when eggs has only won 1 event in like 7 months. DOJ I also don't see as a problem but thats up to TLR I mean its no different than white sun zenith vs 99% of decks.
Out of curiosity, do we know why Zuran Orb was banned originally?
From what I've dug up, I believe that it has to do with the card Balance. The "classic" in "Classic Heirloom" comes from the classic format which no longer exists on MTGO. Since we now play by legacy legality balance is not a concern.
There's Restore Balance and it's price is around 50 cents, so you never know.
Also, Eggs, like stated previously.
The problem with that is Zuran orb itself... I wanted to play Balance Garg if it ever cycled in before garg spiked due to dredge..... Restore balance takes 6 turns to use and cheating it out with cascade is a crapshoot since you would have to run Zuran orb which can fizzle a cascade.. Basically Eggs+zuran orb=good combo deck Restore balance=jank deck that would be about 4 turns too slow but could be used as a control finisher. UW control with zuran orb+restore balance could be interesting.
Definitly watch RDW...... and be ready to ban something if needed because we should have almost the full legacy burn deck in heirloom..... and unlike real legacy we don't have Leyline of Sanctity to stop it..... Remember when we were talking about ban's about 2 weeks ago and I mentioned RDW and people wondered why. I was worried about lightning bolt and Fireblast coming in alone..... didn't even think about Spike/Rift Bolt getting within range too..
Also alot of good stuff coming in look forward to seeing what happens.
The RDW/burn deck does look intimidating, but there is so much powerful stuff rotating in it will be an exciting season for sure (I'm going to need to brew a Panharmonicon deck for sure). With so much color-specific hate like Chill and Kor Firewalker, it will not be too difficult to keep some sideboard slots dedicated to RDW. Also the check lands are going to allow control/combo decks to be much more consistent across the first few turns, so hopefully the meta can shake itself out there, especially with a bushwhacker down in the deck.
HOw is gorilla shaman rotating in, that card is 16 dollars?
When posting cards into the mtgsalvation forums when a card is mispelled it finds the closest card. Its not gorilla shaman. its something else similar. When I was originally typing Birthing Pod into my list I typed Breeding pod and it auto corrected to breeding pool....
Dude this new rotation has me so Hyped I already built 3 decks tonight :).
Saheeli Rah Delver
JundVine
Zoo 2.0
and have a TEPS deck that was always just a bit slow and missing tendrils.... still probably too slow but its really fun to play and can win turn 3 with god draw but usually turn 4/5.. Even If I feel RDW might be broken I think ill leave that for someone else to play i got amazing creations to bring
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I dug this up on my journey for enlightenment. There is talk of goblins and talk of other things but I bolded what interested me the most. It seems that when banning a turn 4 format was atleast somewhat a goal from before.
Ironically the way of thinking from before was also, we dont want a turn 4 format, and we don't want a UW control turn 40 format even more. The flaw in logic is that they removed all the viable ways to prevent turn 2 and 3 wins trying to create a format where "No" was not being said. We have unwound the Swords to Plowshares banning from before which helps, more may be needed if we want a balance.
I fully agree with his setiment... 6 months ago I thought cephalid was fine 6 months later we have So many more CIP untapped lands and with pain lands coming in next rotation Ceph went from a turn 3 deck to a turn 2 deck. For the same reason Invig is gone and the same reason Ooze is gone I think ceph should go too.....
Now as to the future of this format We are at a impasse here with the price drops and how much stuff will come in next rotation. You can either A just say **** it and leave everything unbanned and even unban more Zuran orb and Dark Ritual I still believe both would be slower than what we already have and if anything Dark ritual sets up ways to beat ceph. Turn 1 ritual Engineered plague is GG vs ceph.
Or B you can do what WOTC did with modern. and just ban everything broken and work backwards if needed.
IE ban Ceph, Ban Hymn maybe ban something from mono red and ban everything else that comes close to winning before turn 4 while also making sure control cannot take over games in the now slower format. IE ban cloudpost if needed.
I would like to lean more towards the first option however I still believe that hymn and ceph both need to go. and that piledriver/ritual/zuran orb/misthollow Even DOJ are all weaker than decks we currently have the format.
I left Invig off my List of cards that would be slower than what we currently have for a reason. I don't feel invig being unbanned is a good thing for the same reason I think Ceph with the new lands will be broken.. As I said the deck goldfishes turn 2 as much as Ceph... while also being able to go turn 3 or turn 4 after sitting back on counters if your not playing vs a deck you need to race... TLDR Infect is the total package Ceph is a 1 trick pony.
Again my list of cards on banned list that would make 0 difference if unbanned because we already have decks that are faster/better than anything they would make.
Zuran Orb (1 trick pony in a restore balance deck)
Dark ritual (no entomb= not fast enough to matter doesn't fit into any current combo deck, MBC would run it as 4x and maybe a suicide black deck but nothing faster than t3)
Tendrils (would give eggs a kill but still be turn 4 deck) Might be too strong in high tide if it could get black mana.
Worldgorger dragon (if your gonna leave turn 2 Blow your load combo's in with ceph why not just unban dragon its just as easy to stop and needs more cards to go off than ceph)
Decree of Justice (White sun zenith is 100% supior and control is so bad right now the only time DOJ ever was broken was in control Mirrors and I mean i'd rather have a mirror breaker than 60 min game 1's)
Misthollow Griffen (we have a better version of it already and its seeing 0 play)
Sword of the Meek (even if it ever came into price the combo isnt fast enough to matter in our format)
PileDriver (Goblins are bad. Goblins are slow RDW right now is 1 turn faster than even the best goblin draw) Fecundity goblins is the only viable goblin deck and it would not even run it.
Counterspell (if hymn is not too broken for the format counterspell isn't)
Fact or Fiction. I think I was wrong.... Although I 100% believed what I said at the time and I think that Berlin should have banned FOF back in the day to stop UW control when it was the God deck. Right now FOF might just be a turn too slow to matter.... (although Counterspell and FOF could never both be unbanned together)
As to lands Any ceph deck I ran would have 4x yavimaya coast.. Sylvan tutor is just too good to not run and I 100% believe the newer lists that are ran are inferior to the list i ran when I ran it 3 color. UGW Ceph is in my opinion 100% the Superior version. Eventually aether hub will drop in price as kaladesh is mass opened and when it does its a 4x in any ceph deck too. If you want me to bring back my version and win a couple events I can.... Its just the deck is so boring... But if its the best deck in the format and Yavimaya coast comes into the format I will run the deck and win a event or 2 to show what I mean.
As a final note, if every time people want to have an open discussion you speak down to them like children, you'll soon not have enough people to keep this format going...
I lost on friday to infect beating me on turn 2 on the play..... This was with invig banned.
We didn't build some OP deck all we did was take the current Infect deck that currently is played and makes top 4 and add 4x invig and watch as the 10% chance to win on turn 2/3 became a 50% chance. If you want msg me on MTGO Ill show you the deck I had and you can play against it and see what I mean. Its not the fact that it can win turn 2 its the fact that Infect is already a equal deck to Ceph (when built right). and adding Invig to that made the deck something that if you didn't have multiple removal spells on turn 2/3 you just lost. While also having the ability to play a long game... Like my INFECT version was alot less Suicide compared to TLR's my INFECT version didn't go for the turn 2 kill my Infect version ran 10x maindeck counters. Countered every thing you did to threaten my hand/creatures then on turn 3/4 just swung for 15+infect while I was holding a open counter.
Again though I 100% agree with you that as of late this format has turned from a fun format into more of an arms race. With MBC/splinter twins/high tide/ceph/mono red all winning or taking away your ability to win by turn 4. and maybe the format could use being slowed down a turn splinter/tide/mono red are all just this side of Fair atm MBC and Ceph maybe not so. even zoo and jund decks right now (decks that were the #1 and #2 deck just a few rotations ago are now just too slow). Either that or unban everything and lets arm race.
One thing I do feel should be open to all players whether thru announcements during the tournaments or beforehand on this thread: I do not like the idea of preemptive banning without it being widely known beforehand, this would allow others to chime in, share data, fears, pros/cons, etc. While I am still pretty sure invigorate was going to be a problem(i was testing it also), it would have been fun to atleast get to see how broke we could have made it, and then the inevitable metagaming among the infect players. I don't think it is fair to punish the players who are willing to prepare in advance for the format by stripping them of the time and even cost they put into decks anticipating new cards. I am not saying that they can ever count on a card being legal at a rotation, but I have found that just following market trends I have identified most of the stronger coming rotations and was able to pick them up before the rush to change decks.
I am of the opinion that some cards should be unbanned, Either counterspell of Fact of Fiction(both at first would be a big change and i understand that, I feel that both would be fine, but understand a one or the other start), Misthollow Griffin, Decree of Justice, Goblin Piledriver, Zuran Orb all seem out of place as bans if we are allowing the cards we have now. I think that cephalid is very close to being bannable but at the current time I would allow it and Hymn to tourach if one of the blue answers comes back into the format. (*note that I think cephalid is fine, but that is also assuming that we are ok with a turn 3ish format. If we were looking for no turn 2 kills we would need to ban one of its must have cards and berserk)
Yeah I understand not wanting something too broken in the format and if that is the stance to be taken I understand. I would like as I asked just to try to include others in the process if possible. Just asking for feedback in the tournament chatroom or here a few weeks before rotation should be more than sufficient. That would let you get a feel for what others think about a broken card and open up discussion which may lead you to a card you have missed. I don't think anyone is going to be purposefully withholding broken cards they are working on if they are truly a problem. Just a little discussion this time showed that several people have already been watching the market and have been working on the new land denial packages that orzhov offers, and I am sure they are also working on solution decks to those and the other current problems.
I seen a player suggesting Yavimaya Coast and Personal Tutor for the cephalid deck. Personal tutor is interesting but blue, did I miss the green addition that was being alluded to? Regrowth effect maybe? Groundseal in the sideboard with a fair plan after?
Even if bushwhacker stays, I would advocate for RDW not receiving a ban. I've stated before, I think of it similar to cube building where having a powerful aggressive red deck keeps combo/control decks at a high level of efficiency. I know not everyone would agree, but if bushwhacker rotates out I would like to see Invigorate unbanned mainly to keep aggro decks at a high level of efficiency, demanding answers. But maybe infect as is already hits that requirement.
My vote for Zuran Orb would be to unban it and see what happens.
"ARE YOU CONVINCED?"
Now onto my real post
After seeing CAWblade back (AND THE POWER OF SPELL PIERCE in my deck) I think that i'm again flip flopping like a politician.
Hymn is fine in our format and if ceph and hymn were both banned that CawBlade deck is the real deal..... I wouldn't unban FoF or Counterspell just for fear of making cawblade even more broken. cause that deck just takes control of any "fair" deck in the games ive watched. Its not "broken" to the point of banning but its definitly a new tier 1 deck for sure.
Now again we put 2 copies of Ceph into top 4.... My only loss was to the other ceph My Version is about 1/2 turn slower than the suicide version I mana screwed game 1 He turn 2'ed me game 3. My version is built to beat the field as you could see from watching my deck my version of ceph has more answers with tutoring up answers and is not always stopped by graveyard removal I went off through 3x Tormod's crypt's today. Only thing I scopped to was a Engineered plague and that was cause I didn't sideboard in my Enchantment removal vs black being a idiot. I won game 3 removing his hate and through a tormod's.
TLDR I'm still all for banning ceph and Unbanning some things But I think after running 4x Spell pierce maindeck and more counters Sideboard (spell pierce was one of my MVP cards today and I will start running it 4x in alot more blue decks). I think that Hymn might just be ok and I'd be more scared of removing it and having to ban a deck like cawblade out down the road... Blue decks has Spell Pierce, everyone has dodecapod, GW decks have smiter (and soon to be wilt-leaf liege)
BUT CEPHALID NEEDS TO GO... The deck is way too consistant when you start running tutors and counters and silences. You yourself made the argument a few pages back that bans happen for multiple reasons not always based off the power of a card.. In Cephalids case Even if you feel its not too broken (which I disagree with) it is a fragile combo and might be beatable as you say... but I just feel its unhealthy in the format and I think we would have a better format with it gone and outside you I don't think anyone would miss getting turned 2'ed by it... I know I won't and I play the deck.
As to Mono Red I only mentioned banning something in mono red if you were slowing the format or if fireblast came back in. Mono Red is fine right now.
-Cephalid, The version that I read about today certainly looked like having the "usual" sideboard cards wasnt going to just cut it. He hit a nail on a head though, no one likes losing on turn 2. You can have whatever sideboard card you want but some hands are very keepable but may require a come into play tapped land. Just having to mulligan to 6 because your opponent may play cephalid on a given week since they didnt win the week prior is awkward. This could probably go one more rotation to see how the new control decks pan out and how more decks not having the first land come in tapped works out, but it could be 3 more months of bad feelings. Im voting neutral on this one, but definitely "heavily watched"
-Hymn probably feels the same way when you lose, but thats jsut because people don't complain about the times they get hymn'd once and go on to still win with the early threat they deployed. They just feel the bitter pain that is getting your one combo piece pulled or 2 of the 3 lands you kept so wisely in your opening hand. The numbers don't really support a hymn ban. It is never actually ending the game on the 2nd or 3rd turn by itself.
I am glad a reasonable control deck came along, I havnet played against it yet, but i wasnt even sure anything based on UW control was viable at the time. Giving that deck and other blue based decks FoF should further show that hymn is a great card but not overpowered when effective recovery spells are in the format.
While this is not enough data in the format Penny Dreadful both Hymn and Fact of Fiction are legal, in the first event the FoF deck ruled the day. Historically hymn has had a few times to shine but they are almost always a 2nd tier or metagame special strategy. (Outside of the Necro days)
-Zuran orb is probably going to give me fits in play, but whatever its got some utility but we can always come back if something breaks it.
-I was all for Misthollow being unbanned but I asked for someone to show me something and I saw a glimpse, I am in the corner of leave Eternal Scourge for now, and have both cards be monitored for potential ban or unban.
-FOF/Counterspell I am probably only person who wants both unbanned, it is likely that I may play a psychatog at some event if that ever happens to get it out of my system. In all other circumstances I am probably the least likely player to ever play counterspell in a deck, and I promise my FoF splits will be fun for everyone(not you though)
-Invigorate remains banned? Until atleast a few more good mana options come into play untapped I am against turn 2 format. I don't mind a little speed and exciting game play, and think deck building should answer problems, but not wanting to be just a mono color linear shouldnt mean you have to play with a mana disadvantage against the field.
-Decree of Justice didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned or put in the same "under watch" that I would put the griffin/scourge on.
-Goblin Piledriver didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned hope that someone makes it seem like we should be watching it, but that is unlikely without some more cards coming into the price range that power it up.
-Dark Ritual didnt make the TLR list, keep it banned even the fun decks are so high variance with this card, and the ones that only i find fun are devious. I love this card but the variance and power level are extreme.
As for Cephalid , I'll probably try to find a deck that can sideboard Planar Void.
Edit: I haven't played against it yet, but are you proposing Esper for the Eternal Scourge/Lost Legacy? If not, then you'll need to find some cards to replace the Moorland Haunt synergy. Also I figure Manipulate Fate stays useful late game to remove lands from the deck, however Lost Legacy could steal win cons.
I think cawblade is beatable. I think black decks with hymn can possibly get far enough ahead early (we saw it lose to BR today albeit on time but the BR deck was 2 turns from winning. Uh GW decks and zoo with stuff like smiter and such could probably find a way too (BLOODBRAID IS COMING BACK SOON!!!!!) and sideboard cards to stop the recursion with the land (Pithing Needle is rotating back in!!!!!!!) I think Combo like high tide/splinter can start running counters to protect themselves while going off (Which also slows the deck a turn or so Which is not a bad thing Look at IRL legacy. every control deck runs 4-8x Duress/sieze/cabal therapy) and some even run counters. That is what keep them in check. If force of will was ever banned in legacy it would turn into turn 2 kill format and people wouldn't run anything but combo. I'm beginning to think Cawblade/Hymn might actually be our FOW's.. is hymn broken yes. but it keeps people honest and I think more combo decks will start running counter distruption (duress/counters)
Also If someone builds Mono red "the right way" I think a true Mono red burn deck (WITH VEHICLES) could be viable in this format and is a deck like cawblades natural enemy. I mean you can take control of the board all you want but eventually you run out of counters for a bolt to the face every turn. IE blistering firecat/that new vehicle that hits the turn it comes into play/hellspark/burn spells and just being Mono red burn.
and i'm not discounting the deck we have now suicide red I think if Cawblade came up against suicide red and suicide red wins the dice roll it wins the game. if it loses the dice roll it still wins the game if cawblade doesn't drop a t3 scourge.
Also as to bans Zuran orb is a really good card. and will help makes eggs better. 4x zuran orb to sac your lands before second sunrise. but its not good enough to stay banned when eggs has only won 1 event in like 7 months. DOJ I also don't see as a problem but thats up to TLR I mean its no different than white sun zenith vs 99% of decks.
The problem with that is Zuran orb itself... I wanted to play Balance Garg if it ever cycled in before garg spiked due to dredge..... Restore balance takes 6 turns to use and cheating it out with cascade is a crapshoot since you would have to run Zuran orb which can fizzle a cascade.. Basically Eggs+zuran orb=good combo deck Restore balance=jank deck that would be about 4 turns too slow but could be used as a control finisher. UW control with zuran orb+restore balance could be interesting.
all rotating in together......
Definitly watch RDW...... and be ready to ban something if needed because we should have almost the full legacy burn deck in heirloom..... and unlike real legacy we don't have Leyline of Sanctity to stop it..... Remember when we were talking about ban's about 2 weeks ago and I mentioned RDW and people wondered why. I was worried about lightning bolt and Fireblast coming in alone..... didn't even think about Spike/Rift Bolt getting within range too..
Also alot of good stuff coming in look forward to seeing what happens.
When posting cards into the mtgsalvation forums when a card is mispelled it finds the closest card. Its not gorilla shaman. its something else similar. When I was originally typing Birthing Pod into my list I typed Breeding pod and it auto corrected to breeding pool....
Saheeli Rah Delver
JundVine
Zoo 2.0
and have a TEPS deck that was always just a bit slow and missing tendrils.... still probably too slow but its really fun to play and can win turn 3 with god draw but usually turn 4/5.. Even If I feel RDW might be broken I think ill leave that for someone else to play i got amazing creations to bring