How are you supposed to beat infect with this deck? I lost a game where I drew four bolts, mnemonic walled a bolt back, bolted again, and countered two spells, along with having that wall and a Mulldrifter to block. He got double rancor on a Myr in the end.
I boarded in a dispel, manaleak, negate, 2 seismic shudders, and a curfew(Threw it in there just to see if it worked well enough against infect to have a spot. Didn't draw it, so I have no clue)
Well, first of all, go back and look at the specifics of the match and see if you could have done something different to win it. Maybe you got a removal spell countered by a pump spell that you didn't have to get, maybe you could have blown him out at one point, maybe you played around something you shouldn't have or failed to play around something, etcetera. Without having seen the match, it's hard for me to say if you're doing something wrong, if something is wrong with your version of the deck, or if you just played a weird outlier where you had a good draw but they had an absurd one.
However, while infect is beatable, as the fastest deck in the format, it's the natural bad match-up for Post. Don't go overboard in building your sideboard against it. Remember, infect is an explosive but inconsistent deck; on those occasions when they don't have a good hand, you generally should win if you make reasonable mulligan decisions, because we have answers more consistently than they have threats.
The Kiln Fiends deck though isn't really a problem. It doesn't have the resiliency of Infect; its advantage is that it can play some aggro-control games that Infect can't, but Post should crush them on that territory. They'll sometimes get explosive draws, but they don't have as many ways of protecting their threats as Storm has.
The important thing to remember about combo decks (Or really, any proactive deck) is that sometimes they just win; that's why people play them. The reason people play Post is that if they stumble, Post generally wins. The question with Infect isn't so much "can I beat the nut draw" as it is "just how good does their draw have to be to beat us."
Thanks for the advice! I looked through it and saw one or two mistakes in the last game of the match. One thing that I wasn't entirely sure about, there was one part when I bolted a creature on my turn, which he invigorated in response, so I bolted again after that. He was tapped out the whole time, but is that necessarily wrong to do? Is it more important to get the threat out of the way as soon as possible, or to try to make them trip up on their turn?
There's the list for reference. I'm new to the deck, and have been noodling around with a couple of the slots, like the sideboarded curfew, dispel, mana leak, the maindeck utility creatures like Sea Gate Oracle, Steamcore Weird, and Mulldrifter, and the burn/counter package. I'm considering running more firebolts, and I almost know I need more counterspells, so I dunno how I'm going to change the list.
Thanks for the advice! I looked through it and saw one or two mistakes in the last game of the match. One thing that I wasn't entirely sure about, there was one part when I bolted a creature on my turn, which he invigorated in response, so I bolted again after that. He was tapped out the whole time, but is that necessarily wrong to do? Is it more important to get the threat out of the way as soon as possible, or to try to make them trip up on their turn?
I don't want to make a blanket statement about this because I think it depends a lot on what you put them on having. You have to look at their behaviour and make an educated guess as to whether or not they have a hand full of pump spells. An example: If you kill their first creature, tap out, and then they miss playing a creature next turn, you have to assume their hand is all pump spells - otherwise why would they have kept it without a second creature? - and that he doesn't have a free pump spell he could have saved his guy with - otherwise, why didn't he do it?
You'll often find yourself in a bad position where if they have a sufficiently good draw, you lose no matter what you do. In those situations, take the line that requires the most luck on their part. Killing a guy on your turn might lose to Invigorate, but keeping mana open to kill a guy on their turn might lose to any of several pump spells, for example. It also depends on how many removal spells you have in hand and their kind; your mana situation; and if you can back the removal up with a counter. Always try to figure out what they need to have in hand to kill you (Or stop your removal), and whether they have it.
There's the list for reference. I'm new to the deck, and have been noodling around with a couple of the slots, like the sideboarded curfew, dispel, mana leak, the maindeck utility creatures like Sea Gate Oracle, Steamcore Weird, and Mulldrifter, and the burn/counter package. I'm considering running more firebolts, and I almost know I need more counterspells, so I dunno how I'm going to change the list.
I won't comment on everything right now, but two things that jump out to me is that maindeck Dispel doesn't sound so great, you should play four Preordain, and that Bolt is actually kind of meh in this meta. I think you want a maindeck shudder, and only one Bolt (for Teachings) then two to three other burn spells that are more relevant, like Skred, Electrostatic Bolt, Staggershock, Arc Trail, or Burst Lightning, i.e. burn that either gets you card advantage or kills larger creatures. You also definitely want to maindeck at least one two-drop counter, be it Counterspell, Mana Leak or Prohibit. Bojuka Bog also seems very bad; if you really want to hose graveyards, play Nihil Spellbomb out of the sideboard.
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
Would Nihil Spellbomb really be that much better than Relic? So far Relic seems to do everything I want it to, and having the recurring graveyard removal helps out a lot against the occasional Rats deck.
Those are the small changes I made so far. I'm not sure what I think of Steamcore Weird, having turn three be the earliest I can cast it for value is kindof a pain, so I cut it for the time being. I'm definitely considering going with the Skred plan, but I feel like those might not be that great for the early game if I have a post heavy hand.
Edit: Also, what about affinity? I only have six spells that can kill Myr Enforcers, and nothing to deal with Quicksilver Behemoth, except for maybe counterspells, but the deck seemed to be casting them for U the whole time. Is Counterspell worth running in post? I feel like I struggle with getting double blue or double red as is.
the advantage of using nihil spellbomb is that it removes from a targeted player's gy where as the relic removes both... IzzetPost actually relies quite a bit on cards from the grave and you'll see versions running some or all of deep analysis, think twice, teachings, forbidden alch, firebolt, etc.
I'm not too opposed to Relic, though, it might actually be better. Nihil Spellbomb is just the one that came to mind; Bojuka Bog is definitely not what you want.
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To be honest JustSin, the list I'm running only runs two flashback spells, so it currently works out somewhat well with that. Though I've cut GY hate from the sideboard in general, while it's useful in a few MUs, the extra pyro/hydroblast I added in instead helps far more.
Here's the current list I'm running, since I got the blasts
in a mirror-heavy metagame, has anyone given any thought to MB wrecking ball? it can be tutored with teachings and can remove pretty much anything, including guardian of the guildpact and an opposing crusher. it also hits opposing posts, obviously.
I still haven't been able to really assess how the new Izzet tapland impacts the deck's mana, so ignoring these issues for now...
I don't think electromancer gets you enough value on an average game. I think there's definitely a deck built around that guy, but a version of Izzet Post might not be it.
It is enticing to be able to untap with him and then cast Compulsive Research leaving Prohibit up, but how often does that happen? The problem with playing guys like him in a control deck is that a lot of the time, especially preboard, your opponent will have a bunch of removal burning a hole in their hand, and so playing a guy that doesn't get value as soon as he comes into play seems poor. Perhaps I'm undervaluing the option of playing him (say) turn 3 while keeping a counter up.
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So, I built this thing, gave it a few games in the practice room and got into a daily. I 2-2'd. not bad for a start, but I made some mistakes which cost me those two defeats. I still have a long way to go, I think.
Match 1: stompy
Game 1 is close. He gets me down to 4 life. He attacks me with a 4/4 ledgewalker, but I manage to double-block with two mulldrifters. when he tries to vines, I ghostly flicker the two of them, drawing into my mnemonic wall. I stall by gaining life of flickering posts until I find my rolling thunder.
Game 2: he has triple thermokarst..... but no action. I manage to burn his dudes until I'm able to cast ulamog's crusher on turn 11 off basic lands.
Match 2: mono red goblins
Game 1: not even close. I keep a slow hand but make the mistake of tapping out on turn 3 to play a sea gate oracle to block the cohort. he lands goblin sledder+mogg war marshal and the little green men kill me two turns later. Then I realize what you guys meant by ''KILL THE SLEDDER ON SIGHT.''.
Game 2: I board in seismic shudder. I manage to hold him off, but I didn't play around pyroblast. he countered my teachings at the end of his turn when I needed to fetch a bolt for his sledder. didn't draw an out, and bushwacker bushwacked me.
Match 3: ELVES!
Game 1: rolling thunder for 7 on turn 6. his board is empty and he has no cards in hand. i'm sitting on 10 mana. he scoops when I tutor for capsize.
Game 2: I nearly got killed by a viridian longbow on his nettle sentinels. seriously, that thing dealt me something like 16 damage over the game. I managed to break it via capsize+counter at one point, and had flicker+wall+glimmer to stay alive long enough for crusher to do his duty.
Match 4- Mono W aggro
I had never played much against the deck, and didn't really know how to tackle the matchup. I lost to squadron hawk and maindeck prismatic strands for my burn spells both games. funny. ''I lost to squadron hawk'' isn't something I thought I'd get to say again. My mistakes here were to tap out on turn 2 with a condescend in hand to try and find a second cloudpost. I played too aggressively and let him resolve his threats. I'll do better next time.
Hi, I just started playing UR post this past week and so far I'm really enjoying the deck...except when I run into TPPS. I've played seven or eight matches against storm, and I just get rolled every time. Is this match up really that bad, and what can I do to improve my chances?
To be fair, it was actually turn 4 for the double Grapeshots, and the counters where Condescend which really doesn't work as well when a deck is full of rituals.
As the otherside, I consider Izzet Post my best matchup though, and not really sure how much can be done to change that without making a lot of huge changes to the deck.
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Heh, s you post on here too. Well, I won against affinity round two and lost to mulligan to oblivion g1+stompy getting the god draw.
t1 sentinel. t2 rancor+pit skulk. I flame slash the sentinel. he groundswells twice and drops another pit skulk t3. GG. *sigh*. Is the meta just not good for 8-post right now? I think i'm gonna go back to MBC for a while. you know, have a chance at beating storm.
I saw some people mentioning problems with Guardian of the Guildpact in particular in the mono white matchup. Ghostfire might be a good side if you see that in their decklist, the rules text that it's colorless trumps the mana cost - it'll kill the Guardian.
Nowadays I actually favour playing Wrecking Ball if you're that worried, because of its relative versatility, but only if you play Teachings.
Thing is, Guardian only wins the game for WW if you're already way behind; otherwise you can kill them before it kills you, counter it, or even just repeatedly capsize a Glimmerpost to live through it. White Weenie is very, very bad against Post, so warping the deck to beat their one good card seems suboptimal.
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I have a few questions for people more experienced in the format and with this deck then I ( only about 30 games under my belt)
anyone have thoughts or experience with deep analysis is it worth the 3-4 tix a piece? Also what are thoughts on having 1 instant speed draw spell to teachings up if you need to dig for an answer that is not an instant or even to dig for a win condition? Also any RTR mana bases out there with all the new lands i would love to see them
Well, whether a card is worth the tickets it goes for is for you to decide. Deep Analysis is very good, but I don't particularly like it in the current metagame. Sea Gate Oracle seems better right now.
A lot of people play Mysteries of the Deep, which is an instant-speed draw spell that you can get with Teachings. It's pretty good; sometimes, you just need cards.
RTR isn't out on Magic Online yet, so it'll be a while before we see the impact of guildgates. I think that in a controlling deck with 24 land, 8 lands that come into play tapped aren't terrible, and you might see people just jam four guildgates in there.
RTR isn't out on Magic Online yet, so it'll be a while before we see the impact of guildgates. I think that in a controlling deck with 24 land, 8 lands that come into play tapped aren't terrible, and you might see people just jam four guildgates in there.
really? because I've kind of thought this would be one deck without a lot of interest in full sets of gates, my thinking is you already have four lands that enter play tapped with the posts and while the color fixing is nice things like prism usually work just fine for color fixing and its not often u run into color issues... I just feel like a start with gates AND posts would be even slower then you can find now
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
Well, first of all, go back and look at the specifics of the match and see if you could have done something different to win it. Maybe you got a removal spell countered by a pump spell that you didn't have to get, maybe you could have blown him out at one point, maybe you played around something you shouldn't have or failed to play around something, etcetera. Without having seen the match, it's hard for me to say if you're doing something wrong, if something is wrong with your version of the deck, or if you just played a weird outlier where you had a good draw but they had an absurd one.
However, while infect is beatable, as the fastest deck in the format, it's the natural bad match-up for Post. Don't go overboard in building your sideboard against it. Remember, infect is an explosive but inconsistent deck; on those occasions when they don't have a good hand, you generally should win if you make reasonable mulligan decisions, because we have answers more consistently than they have threats.
The Kiln Fiends deck though isn't really a problem. It doesn't have the resiliency of Infect; its advantage is that it can play some aggro-control games that Infect can't, but Post should crush them on that territory. They'll sometimes get explosive draws, but they don't have as many ways of protecting their threats as Storm has.
The important thing to remember about combo decks (Or really, any proactive deck) is that sometimes they just win; that's why people play them. The reason people play Post is that if they stumble, Post generally wins. The question with Infect isn't so much "can I beat the nut draw" as it is "just how good does their draw have to be to beat us."
3 Preordain
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Capsize
5 Mountain
1 Steamcore Weird
6 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Compulsive Research
4 Cloudpost
1 Mnemonic Wall
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Slash
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Mysteries of the Deep
2 Condescend
3 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Dispel
2 Rolling Thunder
1 Firebolt
1 Expedition Map
1 Ulamog's Crusher
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Glimmerpost
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Stone Rain
1 Negate
3 Spreading Seas
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
1 Curfew
2 Seismic Shudder
There's the list for reference. I'm new to the deck, and have been noodling around with a couple of the slots, like the sideboarded curfew, dispel, mana leak, the maindeck utility creatures like Sea Gate Oracle, Steamcore Weird, and Mulldrifter, and the burn/counter package. I'm considering running more firebolts, and I almost know I need more counterspells, so I dunno how I'm going to change the list.
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I don't want to make a blanket statement about this because I think it depends a lot on what you put them on having. You have to look at their behaviour and make an educated guess as to whether or not they have a hand full of pump spells. An example: If you kill their first creature, tap out, and then they miss playing a creature next turn, you have to assume their hand is all pump spells - otherwise why would they have kept it without a second creature? - and that he doesn't have a free pump spell he could have saved his guy with - otherwise, why didn't he do it?
You'll often find yourself in a bad position where if they have a sufficiently good draw, you lose no matter what you do. In those situations, take the line that requires the most luck on their part. Killing a guy on your turn might lose to Invigorate, but keeping mana open to kill a guy on their turn might lose to any of several pump spells, for example. It also depends on how many removal spells you have in hand and their kind; your mana situation; and if you can back the removal up with a counter. Always try to figure out what they need to have in hand to kill you (Or stop your removal), and whether they have it.
I won't comment on everything right now, but two things that jump out to me is that maindeck Dispel doesn't sound so great, you should play four Preordain, and that Bolt is actually kind of meh in this meta. I think you want a maindeck shudder, and only one Bolt (for Teachings) then two to three other burn spells that are more relevant, like Skred, Electrostatic Bolt, Staggershock, Arc Trail, or Burst Lightning, i.e. burn that either gets you card advantage or kills larger creatures. You also definitely want to maindeck at least one two-drop counter, be it Counterspell, Mana Leak or Prohibit. Bojuka Bog also seems very bad; if you really want to hose graveyards, play Nihil Spellbomb out of the sideboard.
4 Preordain
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Capsize
5 Mountain
7 Island
4 Compulsive Research
4 Cloudpost
1 Mnemonic Wall
2 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Flame Slash
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Mysteries of the Deep
2 Condescend
3 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Mana Leak
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Rolling Thunder
1 Firebolt
1 Expedition Map
1 Ulamog's Crusher
1 Seismic Shudder
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Glimmerpost
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Stone Rain
2 Negate
3 Spreading Seas
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Dispel
1 Curfew
1 Seismic Shudder
Those are the small changes I made so far. I'm not sure what I think of Steamcore Weird, having turn three be the earliest I can cast it for value is kindof a pain, so I cut it for the time being. I'm definitely considering going with the Skred plan, but I feel like those might not be that great for the early game if I have a post heavy hand.
Edit: Also, what about affinity? I only have six spells that can kill Myr Enforcers, and nothing to deal with Quicksilver Behemoth, except for maybe counterspells, but the deck seemed to be casting them for U the whole time. Is Counterspell worth running in post? I feel like I struggle with getting double blue or double red as is.
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Here's the current list I'm running, since I got the blasts
4 Preordain
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Capsize
5 Mountain
6 Island
1 Island
4 Compulsive Research
4 Cloudpost
1 Mnemonic Wall
2 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Flame Slash
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Mysteries of the Deep
2 Condescend
3 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Mana Leak
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Rolling Thunder
1 Firebolt
1 Expedition Map
1 Ulamog's Crusher
1 Seismic Shudder
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Glimmerpost
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Hydroblast
3 Stone Rain
3 Spreading Seas
2 Dispel
3 Pyroblast
1 Seismic Shudder
Trade thread!
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I don't think electromancer gets you enough value on an average game. I think there's definitely a deck built around that guy, but a version of Izzet Post might not be it.
It is enticing to be able to untap with him and then cast Compulsive Research leaving Prohibit up, but how often does that happen? The problem with playing guys like him in a control deck is that a lot of the time, especially preboard, your opponent will have a bunch of removal burning a hole in their hand, and so playing a guy that doesn't get value as soon as he comes into play seems poor. Perhaps I'm undervaluing the option of playing him (say) turn 3 while keeping a counter up.
the list I was running:
5 mountain
4 glimmerpost
4 cloudpost
2 terramorphic expanse
4 prophetic prism
4 preordain
3 compulsive research
3 condescend
3 flame slash
1 magma spray
2 lightning bolt
1 echoing truth
1 capsize
1 rolling thunder
2 mystical teachings
2 counterspell
1 ghostly flicker
1 mnemonic wall
1 sea gate oracle
1 ulamog's crusher
3 pyroblast
2 seismic shudder
1 shattering pulse
4 wrecking ball
1 serrated arrows
2 dispel
2 lightning bolt
Match 1: stompy
Game 1 is close. He gets me down to 4 life. He attacks me with a 4/4 ledgewalker, but I manage to double-block with two mulldrifters. when he tries to vines, I ghostly flicker the two of them, drawing into my mnemonic wall. I stall by gaining life of flickering posts until I find my rolling thunder.
Game 2: he has triple thermokarst..... but no action. I manage to burn his dudes until I'm able to cast ulamog's crusher on turn 11 off basic lands.
Match 2: mono red goblins
Game 1: not even close. I keep a slow hand but make the mistake of tapping out on turn 3 to play a sea gate oracle to block the cohort. he lands goblin sledder+mogg war marshal and the little green men kill me two turns later. Then I realize what you guys meant by ''KILL THE SLEDDER ON SIGHT.''.
Game 2: I board in seismic shudder. I manage to hold him off, but I didn't play around pyroblast. he countered my teachings at the end of his turn when I needed to fetch a bolt for his sledder. didn't draw an out, and bushwacker bushwacked me.
Match 3: ELVES!
Game 1: rolling thunder for 7 on turn 6. his board is empty and he has no cards in hand. i'm sitting on 10 mana. he scoops when I tutor for capsize.
Game 2: I nearly got killed by a viridian longbow on his nettle sentinels. seriously, that thing dealt me something like 16 damage over the game. I managed to break it via capsize+counter at one point, and had flicker+wall+glimmer to stay alive long enough for crusher to do his duty.
Match 4- Mono W aggro
I had never played much against the deck, and didn't really know how to tackle the matchup. I lost to squadron hawk and maindeck prismatic strands for my burn spells both games. funny. ''I lost to squadron hawk'' isn't something I thought I'd get to say again. My mistakes here were to tap out on turn 2 with a condescend in hand to try and find a second cloudpost. I played too aggressively and let him resolve his threats. I'll do better next time.
that's a BAD stompy deck, no stompy deck in its right mind plays 3 mana sorceries that don't even do any damage!
I saw young wolf, skargan pit skulk, ledgewalkers and rancor. I just assumed it was stompy. but yeah, I thought thermokarst was a weird choice too.
Here's my list for reference:
4 Preordain
3 Condescend
2 Mana Leak
1 Capsize
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Ghostly Flicker
3 Mystical Teachings
2 Firebolt
3 Flameslash
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Expedition Map
4 Prophetic Prism
1 Ulamog's Crusher
2 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Mnemonic Wall
4 Mulldrifter
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
1 Hindering Touch
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Seismic Shudder
2 Stone Rain
2 Earth Rift
game 2, I mull into seismic shudder, and he double grapeshots me. through 2 counterspells. on turn 3.
As the otherside, I consider Izzet Post my best matchup though, and not really sure how much can be done to change that without making a lot of huge changes to the deck.
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t1 sentinel. t2 rancor+pit skulk. I flame slash the sentinel. he groundswells twice and drops another pit skulk t3. GG. *sigh*. Is the meta just not good for 8-post right now? I think i'm gonna go back to MBC for a while. you know, have a chance at beating storm.
Thing is, Guardian only wins the game for WW if you're already way behind; otherwise you can kill them before it kills you, counter it, or even just repeatedly capsize a Glimmerpost to live through it. White Weenie is very, very bad against Post, so warping the deck to beat their one good card seems suboptimal.
4 Preordain
1 Condescend
1 Mana Leak
1 Prohibit
1 Counterspell
2 Compulsive Research
1 Capsize
1 Ghostly Flicker
3 Mystical Teachings
2 Firebolt
4 Flameslash
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Rolling Thunder
2 Expedition Map
4 Prophetic Prism
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Ulamog's Crusher
2 Mnemonic Wall
4 Mulldrifter
Land
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Evolving Wilds
7 Island
6 Mountain
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Coast Watcher
2 Stone Rain
2 Earth Rift
anyone have thoughts or experience with deep analysis is it worth the 3-4 tix a piece? Also what are thoughts on having 1 instant speed draw spell to teachings up if you need to dig for an answer that is not an instant or even to dig for a win condition? Also any RTR mana bases out there with all the new lands i would love to see them
A lot of people play Mysteries of the Deep, which is an instant-speed draw spell that you can get with Teachings. It's pretty good; sometimes, you just need cards.
RTR isn't out on Magic Online yet, so it'll be a while before we see the impact of guildgates. I think that in a controlling deck with 24 land, 8 lands that come into play tapped aren't terrible, and you might see people just jam four guildgates in there.
really? because I've kind of thought this would be one deck without a lot of interest in full sets of gates, my thinking is you already have four lands that enter play tapped with the posts and while the color fixing is nice things like prism usually work just fine for color fixing and its not often u run into color issues... I just feel like a start with gates AND posts would be even slower then you can find now
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