Preordain is meant for decks that are in a longer game and used to filter the quality of draws. Ponder is meant for decks looking for a very specific answer/card and the shuffle effect is also very important to prevent you from getting locked out by the top of your deck. You see more cards with a single Ponder than you do with a Preordain.
There's a very real reason why RUG Delver in Legacy uses 4 Ponder and not 4 Preordain. And Preordain is a distant 3rd to Brainstorm and Ponder.
Hopefully that's enough explanation.
You can't compare legacy to pauper, because legacy has brainstorms and fetchlands. If you have fetches, it changes everything when it comes to draw spells. I do agree with you about AC, though. two mana for a draw spell when it occasionally also helps your opponent isn't what this deck is really trying to do.
I think you're just misconstruing the abject power level of a draw spell outside having fetches. Like I said, formats with fetchlands change everything about draw spells because you have a ton more control over what's on the top of your deck. In legacy, brainstorm is by far the best draw spell - in pauper, it's one of the weaker ones.
Ponder doesn't have any way of getting rid of the bad cards (shuffling and drawing isn't that great - when you do that, it's just a random cantrip). Just to reiterate: Ponder is better if you're looking for specific cards. Preordain is better if you want to improve the overall quality of your draws.
With Memory Lapse, you're giving up a draw (card) for one of theirs. It's about as much of a Time Walk as Fog or Boomerang are. They're also not "forced" to replay it next turn - they get a land drop, and can play anything else. Sure, it's tempo, but it's narrow in that it only helps you if you're already winning, and won't stop you from losing in the way a hard counter can. And I think someone was correct in saying that you're "countering a random card from their deck", but I see this as a con; hard counters give you the opportunity to counter the best card in their deck when they play it.
Also since someone mentioned it - Snap, by contrast, is free and has a lot of other uses: getting a Ninja through, recycling SSS, countering removal, etc.
Traditional Delver (i.e. the ones that go 4-0 in dailies) is more of a control-aggro deck (which is also why Accumulated Knowledge works, given our great card selection.) So like I said, maybe Memory Lapse would be better in a more aggressive, tempo-oriented deck, but at that point, why not just ditch counters altogether and fill the deck with bounce?
T1 Delver, T2 flip and protect it is our ideal plan, of course, but doesn't always happen and hard counters provide the most versatility and strongest "no".
The last concern is: what would you be cutting for it? I also wouldn't remove any hard counters for it, especially not Counterspell.
Ponder doesn't have any way of getting rid of the bad cards (shuffling and drawing isn't that great - when you do that, it's just a random cantrip). Just to reiterate: Ponder is better if you're looking for specific cards. Preordain is better if you want to improve the overall quality of your draws.
With Memory Lapse, you're giving up a draw (card) for one of theirs. It's about as much of a Time Walk as Fog or Boomerang are. They're also not "forced" to replay it next turn - they get a land drop, and can play anything else. Sure, it's tempo, but it's narrow in that it only helps you if you're already winning, and won't stop you from losing in the way a hard counter can. And I think someone was correct in saying that you're "countering a random card from their deck", but I see this as a con; hard counters give you the opportunity to counter the best card in their deck when they play it.
Also since someone mentioned it - Snap, by contrast, is free and has a lot of other uses: getting a Ninja through, recycling SSS, countering removal, etc.
Traditional Delver (i.e. the ones that go 4-0 in dailies) is more of a control-aggro deck (which is also why Accumulated Knowledge works, given our great card selection.) So like I said, maybe Memory Lapse would be better in a more aggressive, tempo-oriented deck, but at that point, why not just ditch counters altogether and fill the deck with bounce?
T1 Delver, T2 flip and protect it is our ideal plan, of course, but doesn't always happen and hard counters provide the most versatility and strongest "no".
The last concern is: what would you be cutting for it? I also wouldn't remove any hard counters for it, especially not Counterspell.
I don't think memory lapse is very good. I would rather play multiple deprives before I played the first lapse, and I'm not very high on multiple deprives.
From a roughly traditional list I made these changes to add the lapse...
-1 deprive
-1 exclude
-2 counter spell
+4 memory lapse
Leaving me with the build i posted alittle bit earlier. And a well timed fog can win you the game :p. I can totally see where your coming from and its probably the reason people werent playing them earlier but its interesting to me. I really really want to see it work it hasn't disappointed yet. And i use the counterspells to counter their big stuff permanantly and i use the lapses to set back their draw and pull ahead in tempo. It does kinda feel aggressive when playing it.
Another pro for Memory Lapse is it allows you to play Quicksand and cast it off a single island and a quicksand.
Except we don't play Quicksand. Quicksand is for MUC. Delver plays 16-17 Islands. The low number is okay due to the low curve and card selection, but running non-basics, taplands, non-U producers, etc - basically anything but Islands - is suboptimal because it compromises the consistency of opening hands and Spire Golems way too much.
From a roughly traditional list I made these changes to add the lapse...
-1 deprive
-1 exclude
-2 counter spell
+4 memory lapse
Leaving me with the build i posted alittle bit earlier. And a well timed fog can win you the game :p. I can totally see where your coming from and its probably the reason people werent playing them earlier but its interesting to me. I really really want to see it work it hasn't disappointed yet. And i use the counterspells to counter their big stuff permanantly and i use the lapses to set back their draw and pull ahead in tempo. It does kinda feel aggressive when playing it.
I don't know but it just feels fun to play with.
2 hard counters is nowhere near consistent enough to be able to counter the things you need when you need. Sometimes a Fog can win games. Most of the time, you're better of running a card that actually does something. If you think tempo > hard counters and want to test it out, fine, but "really wanting to see it work" and "feeling fun to play" aren't valid reasons to be running a card in a competitive environment.
Let's end this discussion. If you're mono-blue Delver, all Islands and running less than 4 Counterspell, you're doing it very very wrong. End of story. It's not really up for debate.
Except we don't play Quicksand. Quicksand is for MUC. Delver plays 16-17 Islands. The low number is okay due to the low curve and card selection, but running non-basics, taplands, non-U producers, etc - basically anything but Islands - is suboptimal because it compromises the consistency of opening hands and Spire Golems way too much.
2 hard counters is nowhere near consistent enough to be able to counter the things you need when you need. Sometimes a Fog can win games. Most of the time, you're better of running a card that actually does something. If you think tempo > hard counters and want to test it out, fine, but "really wanting to see it work" and "feeling fun to play" aren't valid reasons to be running a card in a competitive environment.
Let's end this discussion. If you're mono-blue Delver, all Islands and running less than 4 Counterspell, you're doing it very very wrong. End of story. It's not really up for debate.
This is the second time in a row you've slammed your foot down against someone else's experimentation. You should chill out some.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Has anyone thought of Thought Scour as a way to draw a card as well as mess up enemy Poder and Preordain? I also run brainstorm so it could be a way to get rid of some junk cards on top as well as cantrip. It seems very versatile and could be a great way to mess with ClopsFiend and opposing delver decks. It also works with memory lapse which has proven to really put the opponent behind especially late game. Through my testing.
Has anyone thought of Thought Scour as a way to draw a card as well as mess up enemy Poder and Preordain? I also run brainstorm so it could be a way to get rid of some junk cards on top as well as cantrip. It seems very versatile and could be a great way to mess with ClopsFiend and opposing delver decks. It also works with memory lapse which has proven to really put the opponent behind especially late game. Through my testing.
It is definitely an option, but in a fundamentally different build of the deck.
The typical list wants only 16-17 lands and therefore wants to be cantripping to find land in the early turns and business in the later turns.
Thought Scour isn't at effective at cantripping as Ponder/Preordain, so it is either competing with deck slots or you need to up your land count.
But if you are willing to set up your deck around a card like Thought Scour then you can definitely run cards like Portent/Brainstorm/Memory Lapse and a higher land count in a deck that is aiming more for the late game.
Chris Davis had a version oriented around this and did decently with it in the video:
My problem with that though is you're a 16 land deck and we're talking about a move which will require 3 lands to pull off successfully at what is essentially sorcery speed (Memory Lapse + Portent/Thought Scour).
The other issue is you're looking at 3 cards which by themselves are mediocre and pretty bad in some cases. Memory Lapse doesn't really deal with the problem, Thought Scour doesn't really have an interaction with everything else and Portent is strictly worse than Ponder/Preordain for setting up your draws. Really we seem to be lowering overall card quality for some pretty conditional and optimistic interactions between them. Wouldn't we rather just be playing good cards to begin with?
I've played against this type of Delver low-land builds a lot and notice even with a lot of cantrips their deck just doesn't really have a lot of action for them to even cantrip into. Short of getting the T1 Delver & flip, T2 Cloud of Fae + Spellstutter backup they just seem to auto-lose if they fall even slightly behind.
that choose Frostburn weird or Phantasmal bear? first is good for block and possible damage(but want save mana on turn2 for counter), second good 1turn drop without delver and save 2 mana on turn 2.
What do you guys think about my deck? I'm just getting into pauper on mtgo, but I'm deff not new to magic, nor to flipping delvers ( played mageblade in standard and rug in legacy for a while)
Has anyone though about hands of binding? I've had limited testing with the card but results seem very good vs stompy and other aggressive decks. It lets you get a second swing in with ninja of the deep hours (possibly repeatedly if you can control the rest of the board) it also lets you smash in the air without worrying about the ground to much as you get a removal on one of their dudes.
Is two mana too much for a potential two for one? (Could you even call it that because you still get the effects?) My list is pretty similar to eclipsebolt with hands of binding over accumulated knowledge.
It can be kind of poor against 8post and burn I imagine (I haven't tested). But maybe board for stompy/affinity?
Hey Delver players. I'm thinking about making a foray into Delver. The reasons I would like to play Delver are that 1: I love Blue 2: I love playing Tempo and 3: Winning. I consider myself a good player. In 4-3-2-2 Drafts on MTGO I have 4 3-0's, 5 2-1's, 4 1-1s and 2 0-1s. I want to play a more controlling version along the lines of what Cweaver runs. This is his list:
The reasoning behind this is that I don't want just Brainstorm or Preordain since they are both not amazing in certain situations. I do like Brainstorm more though. The cutting of Gush is simply because I can't quite afford it right now.
I haven't made any changes to the sideboard because, honestly, I don't know what I want. So if you could help me out with that it would be great. I haven't bought it yet but this is the list I would buy to start familiarizing myself with the deck and all it's intricacies. Thanks!
... proceed to crawl up the wall in crab position with your head hanging backwards until you reach the ceiling. Once you are there, start screaming "For the Glory of Satan" while blood seeps out of your eye sockets (bonus points if they land on her desk).
Generally works for me in those kinds of situations.
I don't run Preordain or Vapor Snag because I really can't afford to tap out, since I'm not running Dazes. I always want to have Counterspell mana available after turn 2, and that becomes much harder to have if you have to Preordain during your turn instead of Brainstorming during theirs. If you can't afford Gush, I'd suggest either Perilous Research or something else that gives hard card advantage, like Think Twice. Card advantage is what this deck chooses over the card selection and library manipulation of the Ponder/Preordain/Daze lists most Delver players are running. If you can't afford the 4th Brainstorm, I'd suggest Ponder over Preordain. Much easier to set up Delver flips with Ponder instead of Preordain.
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You can't compare legacy to pauper, because legacy has brainstorms and fetchlands. If you have fetches, it changes everything when it comes to draw spells. I do agree with you about AC, though. two mana for a draw spell when it occasionally also helps your opponent isn't what this deck is really trying to do.
I think you're just misconstruing the abject power level of a draw spell outside having fetches. Like I said, formats with fetchlands change everything about draw spells because you have a ton more control over what's on the top of your deck. In legacy, brainstorm is by far the best draw spell - in pauper, it's one of the weaker ones.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
With Memory Lapse, you're giving up a draw (card) for one of theirs. It's about as much of a Time Walk as Fog or Boomerang are. They're also not "forced" to replay it next turn - they get a land drop, and can play anything else. Sure, it's tempo, but it's narrow in that it only helps you if you're already winning, and won't stop you from losing in the way a hard counter can. And I think someone was correct in saying that you're "countering a random card from their deck", but I see this as a con; hard counters give you the opportunity to counter the best card in their deck when they play it.
Also since someone mentioned it - Snap, by contrast, is free and has a lot of other uses: getting a Ninja through, recycling SSS, countering removal, etc.
Traditional Delver (i.e. the ones that go 4-0 in dailies) is more of a control-aggro deck (which is also why Accumulated Knowledge works, given our great card selection.) So like I said, maybe Memory Lapse would be better in a more aggressive, tempo-oriented deck, but at that point, why not just ditch counters altogether and fill the deck with bounce?
T1 Delver, T2 flip and protect it is our ideal plan, of course, but doesn't always happen and hard counters provide the most versatility and strongest "no".
The last concern is: what would you be cutting for it? I also wouldn't remove any hard counters for it, especially not Counterspell.
Legacy Gobbyboogers R
I don't think memory lapse is very good. I would rather play multiple deprives before I played the first lapse, and I'm not very high on multiple deprives.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
-1 deprive
-1 exclude
-2 counter spell
+4 memory lapse
Leaving me with the build i posted alittle bit earlier. And a well timed fog can win you the game :p. I can totally see where your coming from and its probably the reason people werent playing them earlier but its interesting to me. I really really want to see it work it hasn't disappointed yet. And i use the counterspells to counter their big stuff permanantly and i use the lapses to set back their draw and pull ahead in tempo. It does kinda feel aggressive when playing it.
I don't know but it just feels fun to play with.
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
Except we don't play Quicksand. Quicksand is for MUC. Delver plays 16-17 Islands. The low number is okay due to the low curve and card selection, but running non-basics, taplands, non-U producers, etc - basically anything but Islands - is suboptimal because it compromises the consistency of opening hands and Spire Golems way too much.
2 hard counters is nowhere near consistent enough to be able to counter the things you need when you need. Sometimes a Fog can win games. Most of the time, you're better of running a card that actually does something. If you think tempo > hard counters and want to test it out, fine, but "really wanting to see it work" and "feeling fun to play" aren't valid reasons to be running a card in a competitive environment.
Legacy Gobbyboogers R
Quicksand is run in non-faeries lists.
This is the second time in a row you've slammed your foot down against someone else's experimentation. You should chill out some.
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
It's fine to run Quicksand in Faeries lists too, you typically don't need a hard counter on turn 2 if you have Spellstutter available.
I actually view Quicksands as a removal spell, that sometimes makes bad looking hands playable.
I talk a bit about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxavc6y8sbg
Fires :symr:f Salvation
imo, it's 4 each of Cloud, Delver, Ninja, SSS, Golem;
4 Counterspell, 1 Deprive, 2-3 Snap, 1-2 Gush, 4 Preordain, 4 Ponder, 2 Daze, 4 AK;
17 Islands.
Legacy Gobbyboogers R
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
It is definitely an option, but in a fundamentally different build of the deck.
The typical list wants only 16-17 lands and therefore wants to be cantripping to find land in the early turns and business in the later turns.
Thought Scour isn't at effective at cantripping as Ponder/Preordain, so it is either competing with deck slots or you need to up your land count.
But if you are willing to set up your deck around a card like Thought Scour then you can definitely run cards like Portent/Brainstorm/Memory Lapse and a higher land count in a deck that is aiming more for the late game.
Chris Davis had a version oriented around this and did decently with it in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh22hbW6qeY&list=PL04lbfeNAaS8r9e0iA9tYtuMSmyiwQF4N
U Delver Fae
UR Nivix Fiend
UWB Esper Sage
G
InfectRIPU
Fissure PostRIPUR
Izzet PostRIPUBR
The Perfect Pauper StormRIPModern:
UW
EggsRIPGR Tron
Legacy:
0 Manaless Dredge
UWR Miracles
UWB Stoneblade and Deathblade
UWR Delver
UWR Landstill
His list is closer to mono U control rather than delver aggro/control I believe and my list retains more of an aggressive tempo-ish build.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spire Golemn
4 Ninja of Deep Hours
4 Spell Stuttersprite
2 Phantasmal Bears
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Memory Lapse
1 Gush
4 Thought Scour
3 Vapor Snag
4 Portent
Land
16 Islands
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
Good interaction with Memory Lapse
My problem with that though is you're a 16 land deck and we're talking about a move which will require 3 lands to pull off successfully at what is essentially sorcery speed (Memory Lapse + Portent/Thought Scour).
The other issue is you're looking at 3 cards which by themselves are mediocre and pretty bad in some cases. Memory Lapse doesn't really deal with the problem, Thought Scour doesn't really have an interaction with everything else and Portent is strictly worse than Ponder/Preordain for setting up your draws. Really we seem to be lowering overall card quality for some pretty conditional and optimistic interactions between them. Wouldn't we rather just be playing good cards to begin with?
I've played against this type of Delver low-land builds a lot and notice even with a lot of cantrips their deck just doesn't really have a lot of action for them to even cantrip into. Short of getting the T1 Delver & flip, T2 Cloud of Fae + Spellstutter backup they just seem to auto-lose if they fall even slightly behind.
im play http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/13491#189464 with +1 brainstorm, +1 island, -1 ponder, -1 exclude
1 Quicksand
16 Island
Creatures:
3 Spire Golem
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Frostburn Weird
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Cloud of Faeries
Spells:
1 Deprive
1 Gush
3 Preordain
2 Snap
1 Vapor Snag
4 Counterspell
3 Ponder
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Daze
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Hydroblast
2 Boomerang
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Vapor Snag
1 Quicksand
2 Coral Net
2 Piracy Charm
1 Daze
2 Serrated Arrows
Also add another Cloud of Faeries, you really want to ensure you can Spellstutter 2-drops consistently.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Is two mana too much for a potential two for one? (Could you even call it that because you still get the effects?) My list is pretty similar to eclipsebolt with hands of binding over accumulated knowledge.
It can be kind of poor against 8post and burn I imagine (I haven't tested). But maybe board for stompy/affinity?
17 Island
2 Quicksand
19 cards
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Phantasmal Bear
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Spire Golem
21 cards
4 Brainstorm
3 Piracy Charm
4 Counterspell
4 Snap
2 Exclude
1 Oona's Grace
2 Gush
20 cards
3 Boomerang
2 Deprive
1 Faerie Trickery
4 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
2 Snakeform
1 Stitched Drake
15 cards
My changes to this would be:
-1 Brainstorm -2 Gush
+2 Preordain +1 Vapor Snag or Bonesplitter
The reasoning behind this is that I don't want just Brainstorm or Preordain since they are both not amazing in certain situations. I do like Brainstorm more though. The cutting of Gush is simply because I can't quite afford it right now.
I haven't made any changes to the sideboard because, honestly, I don't know what I want. So if you could help me out with that it would be great. I haven't bought it yet but this is the list I would buy to start familiarizing myself with the deck and all it's intricacies. Thanks!
Generally works for me in those kinds of situations.
I don't run Preordain or Vapor Snag because I really can't afford to tap out, since I'm not running Dazes. I always want to have Counterspell mana available after turn 2, and that becomes much harder to have if you have to Preordain during your turn instead of Brainstorming during theirs. If you can't afford Gush, I'd suggest either Perilous Research or something else that gives hard card advantage, like Think Twice. Card advantage is what this deck chooses over the card selection and library manipulation of the Ponder/Preordain/Daze lists most Delver players are running. If you can't afford the 4th Brainstorm, I'd suggest Ponder over Preordain. Much easier to set up Delver flips with Ponder instead of Preordain.
Fires :symr:f Salvation