A question: Do you keep 1 land hands with this deck if you have Preordain/Brainstorm and no Delver but plenty of good 2-drops? It seems like you'll be in a very poor situation if you t1 Brainstorm and don't find that second land in your top 3, though the odds for this of course are small (which is why I ask - do you risk it or mulligan?) I'm guessing it is correct to mulligan, which is why I opted for an 18-land build with Quicksand, no Spire Golem (Quicksand anti-synergy) and Exclude over Deprive (to cut down on double blue). If I'm mistaken, I'm sure it's better to drop Quicksand in favor of the more traditional Spire Golem and go with a 16-land build.
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In my experience one landers without a Delver are usually not worth keeping. I also believe in 17-land lists over 16 landers. I don't look at Quicksand as a land, I look at it as protection against opposing Ninjas and board stabilizers. The fact that it can produce mana is just gravy.
So let's say your opening hand is something like Island, Brainstorm, Cloud, Cloud, Spellstutter, Ninja, Counterspell. If you Brainstorm into a land this hand is okay. If your Brainstorm hits nothing you're dead. If Brainstorm hits one Quicksand, it's not the worst, but you have a dead card in hand for at least two more turns.
I'd ship it back. Having Delver on turn 1 let's you win whether its another spell on top or a land.
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I'd ship it back. Having Delver on turn 1 let's you win whether its another spell on top or a land.
OK, fair enough, but is a t1 Delver without a flip guarantee (Brainstorm) really enough to save a 1 land hand in that case? Without the 2nd land (which in the example, not even Brainstorm/Preordain could deliver), you have at best (if the top card isn't a creature) a 7 turn clock that you have no way to protect. The way I see it, you *need* that second land drop, delver or not. IMO, the deck relies on saying NO! from t2 and onwards more than it relies on Delver.
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It's not just about saying NO, it's saying no at the right times while continuing to put pressure on. It seems like I'm down talking a bit to you, but that's really fundamental in how the deck works. Delver-Faeries isn't a control deck. Saying no while only swinging with 1-2 power on the board doesn't pressure them enough. You absolutely need 3 power on the board ASAP. That forces opponents to play into Counterspells and Spellstutters. If they manage to sneak something dangerous on the board, you can Snap it and control the board JUST long enough to kill them or put them in a position where they can't recover in time.
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OK, fair enough, but is a t1 Delver without a flip guarantee (Brainstorm) really enough to save a 1 land hand in that case? Without the 2nd land (which in the example, not even Brainstorm/Preordain could deliver), you have at best (if the top card isn't a creature) a 7 turn clock that you have no way to protect. The way I see it, you *need* that second land drop, delver or not. IMO, the deck relies on saying NO! from t2 and onwards more than it relies on Delver.
Speaking of keeping one-landers with this deck. Check the screenshot. Where was the next island after a ponder shuffle?
Why is it that Post is the most frequent 4-0 on the dailies? IMO Delver is the best deck in the format and I don't even play it, I play Stompy..which Post just virtually autoloses to.
Why is it that Post is the most frequent 4-0 on the dailies? IMO Delver is the best deck in the format and I don't even play it, I play Stompy..which Post just virtually autoloses to.
Well, keep in mind that it's only showing one daily per day now. So you're only seeing part of what's actually happening. Also, a lot of people are playing post ATM, so it makes sense that it would show up a lot. Delver is really good, but post is still quite good, too.
What do you guys side in against MBC with witches?
It really depends on your sideboard. If you have stormbound geist, they're probably pretty good. I would probably side in boomerang, which is really there for the post matchup, because bouncing their witches and then countering it when they attempt to replay it tends to happen quite a bit.
Obviously phantasmal bear is terrible against them, so that's out. It really depends on your build, but you need to have as many unsummon effects and counterspells in your deck as possible and just try to make sure witches doesn't hit the table. Be aggressive with your ninjas and try to get extra cards when you can. Playing against MBC tends to be a grind because they have so much removal, so try not to keep land light or counter light hands. Against some decks, you can keep like a two delver zero counter hand, but that's unlikely to work against MBC.
It really depends on your sideboard. If you have stormbound geist, they're probably pretty good. I would probably side in boomerang, which is really there for the post matchup, because bouncing their witches and then countering it when they attempt to replay it tends to happen quite a bit.
Obviously phantasmal bear is terrible against them, so that's out. It really depends on your build, but you need to have as many unsummon effects and counterspells in your deck as possible and just try to make sure witches doesn't hit the table. Be aggressive with your ninjas and try to get extra cards when you can. Playing against MBC tends to be a grind because they have so much removal, so try not to keep land light or counter light hands. Against some decks, you can keep like a two delver zero counter hand, but that's unlikely to work against MBC.
Thanks, I'll probably try out some Boomerangs, I am currently running some Vapor Snags as well, which have done work.
You can also try Repeal. I don't think MBC is a big contender though, and bounce effects are counterproductive to almost every other creature in their deck.
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You can also try Repeal. I don't think MBC is a big contender though, and bounce effects are counterproductive to almost every other creature in their deck.
You do realize that you're siding in bounce effects to unsummon your own guys most of the time in this matchup....
Sort of. Those effects aren't very good against Edicts though. To be honest though, I haven't faced MBC in the last 10 Dailies. I'm not saying its not out there, I just don't think it's big enough to worry too much about it.
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Sort of. Those effects aren't very good against Edicts though. To be honest though, I haven't faced MBC in the last 10 Dailies. I'm not saying its not out there, I just don't think it's big enough to worry too much about it.
I faced it twice, and the unsummon effects are hard to use on them but vapor snagging your own guys isn't great lol. My first match against MBC was the older version without witches and it wasn't too hard to handle. The second version with witches 2-0d me and I couldn't do a thing. He was in second place going into the fourth round though so I'd say he was a pretty good player. Didn't see how he finished because I botched my last game (the mirror) when I could have solidly 2-0d it blew my potential 3-1 after a 2-0 start on the daily
I run repeal main deck, but I think mainly my biggest problem are the witches. I don't care too much about anything other than those and Chittering Rats, which I 9/10 have a counter for. Hell, rats isn't bad if I already have solid board position but it's hard to achieve that with witches keeping Delver off the field.
Speaking of the mirror though..I didn't feel as though I ever had any control of the game whether I was winning or losing. I didn't feel like he did either. It was initially a "who can land a flipped delver" first, but then Spire Golem messes that plan up. He played Faeries/Ninjas, which I play the creature light version. A big part of what got him the win was likely having too many small threats for me to deal with, though I do have quick sands for Ninjas, etc but maybe I should run the full 4 instead of 2. He also ran vapor snags which I don't feel like I encounter that often and was hoping that my own snags would snag me the advantage
What do yall think of Memory Lapse? It essentially sets them back a turn which can be a nice swing in tempo. Kinda like a chittering rats without the stick.
Also I have noticed a trend with the delver decks. There is either ponder+preordain or brainstorm. Why not run preordain+brainstorm? Its almost the best of both worlds. Brainstorm digs deep like ponder but at instant speed and also allows for instant speed set up of delver. While preordain provides a "shuffle" effect and helps you get rif of dead cards.
Memory Lapse doesn't actually do anything. When they replay it next turn, you still need to have an answer, and it'll be a 2-for-1. Not to mention it's an awful topdeck. I'd rather run more actual counters that aren't so situational.
Brainstorm's good at flipping Delvers (something the deck doesn't have a whole lot of trouble doing anyway), and finding an answer at instant speed, but not much else. It's only really shines in fast formats that have shuffle effects (fetches) and necessitate immediate answers to game-breaking plays.
Preordaining/Pondering just to get rid of Brainstorm junk seems wasteful - 2 mana and 2 cards just for filtering/random cantrips.
In terms of smoothing out / setting up favorable draws, Preordain > Ponder >> Brainstorm. I think Brainstorm might have a place in the more aggressive builds that would trade future card quality for immediate gains, but otherwise, I think it compromises the quality of the rest of the deck too much. If you test it out, please share results.
Totally, Ill work on it. And what I was thinking of Memory lapse like a timewalk. Although they play it again the next turn they did essentially lose a turn and the board could change to a state in which the card countered is less useful and they would have to use 2 turns to accomplish one action. Like a big swing in tempo that can easily put you ahead in some damge,board prescence and overall knowledge on an opponent's plan/a card in hand to be prepared if they do not replay it. If they repay it and get hit by another memory lapse thats 2 turns behind. On paper at least it seems viable.
The ponder/preordain point makes sense to me and I will definitely keep it in mind.
Also if you do hard counter it next turn it would be a 2 for 1 but they lost a turn and their answer. If they do replay it, it is very possible that they have no other answers to your threats at that period of time. Countering it with a spellstutter is board prescence, tempo, and they lose their answer and gave away some possible info on their hand and situation. Just my thoughts on it not sure if it makes sense
As far as testing goes I am undefeated in 4 matchups although some are irreleveant:
2-0 Mbc- Ponder+brainstorm dug and planned turns beautifully
2-0 Turbo Fog- Memory lapse on a t2 jace's erasure=timewalk
2-0 Grixis storm- although its banned i wanted to test if after using memory lapse would draw hurt. It resulted in their combo fizzling after memory lapse'ing a manamophose even though they were able to draw out of it with ideas unbound.
1-0 Stompy(vault skirge one)- They had a slow start and ended up quitting after i stopped their t3 rancor with a spellstutter. No real testing done here.
Preordain is wrong for this list. You replace that with Ponder.
And Accumulated Knowledge has no place in a blue tempo deck.
Well, if you look at decklists from any daily, you'll see 3-4 preordains. I personally have 4-0ed and 3-1ed many dailies with four preordain.
Preordain is considered by many the premier one mana draw spell in the history of magic, or at the very least extremely close to it. The burden is on you to explain how it could possibly be "wrong" - not on anyone else to explain why it's right.
Well, if you look at decklists from any daily, you'll see 3-4 preordains. I personally have 4-0ed and 3-1ed many dailies with four preordain.
Preordain is considered by many the premier one mana draw spell in the history of magic, or at the very least extremely close to it. The burden is on you to explain how it could possibly be "wrong" - not on anyone else to explain why it's right.
Preordain is meant for decks that are in a longer game and used to filter the quality of draws. Ponder is meant for decks looking for a very specific answer/card and the shuffle effect is also very important to prevent you from getting locked out by the top of your deck. You see more cards with a single Ponder than you do with a Preordain.
There's a very real reason why RUG Delver in Legacy uses 4 Ponder and not 4 Preordain. And Preordain is a distant 3rd to Brainstorm and Ponder.
I disagree about the accumulated knowledge part and I have no problem trying out ponder but I have always been a fan of preordain.
Accumulated Knowledge is meant for slower, draw-go control style decks where you drag the game out and eventually with the 3rd and 4th one should be able to take over. Unless you have some way of getting AK's into the yard reliably. You look like you're a tempo deck so AK doesn't agree with that.
Is there a reason for the list to run 4 Memory Lapse before it runs 4 Counterspell in a mono-island mana base? And with such a low land count I would think free spells like Gush, Daze, Snap are what you're looking for.
About the Memory Lapse thing...it's not card disadvantage (a 2 for 1). They lose a draw step because the card is put on top of their library. Which means you aren't answering the card you countered but instead a random card from their deck. Memory Lapse is weird in that you want to counter the worst possible card with it, rather than the best possible card. That way, your opponent has to spend the next turn drawing and casting a bad card. In a deck like delver that applies a lot of pressure, you don't need to answer every threat. You just need to delay the opponent long enough to kill them (think about Snap). But I'm not really sure if the deck even wants more counterspells and I certainly wouldn't cut actual Counterspells for them.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
15 Island
3 Quicksand
CREATURES (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Preordain
2 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Gush
1 Oona's Grace
4 Daze
4 Counterspell
2 Exclude
3 Snap
A question: Do you keep 1 land hands with this deck if you have Preordain/Brainstorm and no Delver but plenty of good 2-drops? It seems like you'll be in a very poor situation if you t1 Brainstorm and don't find that second land in your top 3, though the odds for this of course are small (which is why I ask - do you risk it or mulligan?) I'm guessing it is correct to mulligan, which is why I opted for an 18-land build with Quicksand, no Spire Golem (Quicksand anti-synergy) and Exclude over Deprive (to cut down on double blue). If I'm mistaken, I'm sure it's better to drop Quicksand in favor of the more traditional Spire Golem and go with a 16-land build.
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So let's say your opening hand is something like Island, Brainstorm, Cloud, Cloud, Spellstutter, Ninja, Counterspell. If you Brainstorm into a land this hand is okay. If your Brainstorm hits nothing you're dead. If Brainstorm hits one Quicksand, it's not the worst, but you have a dead card in hand for at least two more turns.
I'd ship it back. Having Delver on turn 1 let's you win whether its another spell on top or a land.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
OK, fair enough, but is a t1 Delver without a flip guarantee (Brainstorm) really enough to save a 1 land hand in that case? Without the 2nd land (which in the example, not even Brainstorm/Preordain could deliver), you have at best (if the top card isn't a creature) a 7 turn clock that you have no way to protect. The way I see it, you *need* that second land drop, delver or not. IMO, the deck relies on saying NO! from t2 and onwards more than it relies on Delver.
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Fires :symr:f Salvation
Speaking of keeping one-landers with this deck. Check the screenshot. Where was the next island after a ponder shuffle?
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Well, keep in mind that it's only showing one daily per day now. So you're only seeing part of what's actually happening. Also, a lot of people are playing post ATM, so it makes sense that it would show up a lot. Delver is really good, but post is still quite good, too.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
It really depends on your sideboard. If you have stormbound geist, they're probably pretty good. I would probably side in boomerang, which is really there for the post matchup, because bouncing their witches and then countering it when they attempt to replay it tends to happen quite a bit.
Obviously phantasmal bear is terrible against them, so that's out. It really depends on your build, but you need to have as many unsummon effects and counterspells in your deck as possible and just try to make sure witches doesn't hit the table. Be aggressive with your ninjas and try to get extra cards when you can. Playing against MBC tends to be a grind because they have so much removal, so try not to keep land light or counter light hands. Against some decks, you can keep like a two delver zero counter hand, but that's unlikely to work against MBC.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Thanks, I'll probably try out some Boomerangs, I am currently running some Vapor Snags as well, which have done work.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
You do realize that you're siding in bounce effects to unsummon your own guys most of the time in this matchup....
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Fires :symr:f Salvation
I faced it twice, and the unsummon effects are hard to use on them but vapor snagging your own guys isn't great lol. My first match against MBC was the older version without witches and it wasn't too hard to handle. The second version with witches 2-0d me and I couldn't do a thing. He was in second place going into the fourth round though so I'd say he was a pretty good player. Didn't see how he finished because I botched my last game (the mirror) when I could have solidly 2-0d it blew my potential 3-1 after a 2-0 start on the daily
I run repeal main deck, but I think mainly my biggest problem are the witches. I don't care too much about anything other than those and Chittering Rats, which I 9/10 have a counter for. Hell, rats isn't bad if I already have solid board position but it's hard to achieve that with witches keeping Delver off the field.
Speaking of the mirror though..I didn't feel as though I ever had any control of the game whether I was winning or losing. I didn't feel like he did either. It was initially a "who can land a flipped delver" first, but then Spire Golem messes that plan up. He played Faeries/Ninjas, which I play the creature light version. A big part of what got him the win was likely having too many small threats for me to deal with, though I do have quick sands for Ninjas, etc but maybe I should run the full 4 instead of 2. He also ran vapor snags which I don't feel like I encounter that often and was hoping that my own snags would snag me the advantage
Also I have noticed a trend with the delver decks. There is either ponder+preordain or brainstorm. Why not run preordain+brainstorm? Its almost the best of both worlds. Brainstorm digs deep like ponder but at instant speed and also allows for instant speed set up of delver. While preordain provides a "shuffle" effect and helps you get rif of dead cards.
Also just as a side note Frostburn Weird is amazing!
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
Memory Lapse doesn't actually do anything. When they replay it next turn, you still need to have an answer, and it'll be a 2-for-1. Not to mention it's an awful topdeck. I'd rather run more actual counters that aren't so situational.
Brainstorm's good at flipping Delvers (something the deck doesn't have a whole lot of trouble doing anyway), and finding an answer at instant speed, but not much else. It's only really shines in fast formats that have shuffle effects (fetches) and necessitate immediate answers to game-breaking plays.
Preordaining/Pondering just to get rid of Brainstorm junk seems wasteful - 2 mana and 2 cards just for filtering/random cantrips.
In terms of smoothing out / setting up favorable draws, Preordain > Ponder >> Brainstorm. I think Brainstorm might have a place in the more aggressive builds that would trade future card quality for immediate gains, but otherwise, I think it compromises the quality of the rest of the deck too much. If you test it out, please share results.
Legacy Gobbyboogers R
The ponder/preordain point makes sense to me and I will definitely keep it in mind.
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
I decided to post a list of what I am testing:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Spire Golem
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Cloud Of Faeries
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Frostburn Weird
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Memory Lapse
2 Counterspell
3 Snap
1 Gush
4 Preordain
LAND
16 Island
As far as testing goes I am undefeated in 4 matchups although some are irreleveant:
2-0 Mbc- Ponder+brainstorm dug and planned turns beautifully
2-0 Turbo Fog- Memory lapse on a t2 jace's erasure=timewalk
2-0 Grixis storm- although its banned i wanted to test if after using memory lapse would draw hurt. It resulted in their combo fizzling after memory lapse'ing a manamophose even though they were able to draw out of it with ideas unbound.
1-0 Stompy(vault skirge one)- They had a slow start and ended up quitting after i stopped their t3 rancor with a spellstutter. No real testing done here.
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
And Accumulated Knowledge has no place in a blue tempo deck.
RGW Burn RGW
U Mono U Tron U
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet UR
Well, if you look at decklists from any daily, you'll see 3-4 preordains. I personally have 4-0ed and 3-1ed many dailies with four preordain.
Preordain is considered by many the premier one mana draw spell in the history of magic, or at the very least extremely close to it. The burden is on you to explain how it could possibly be "wrong" - not on anyone else to explain why it's right.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Preordain is meant for decks that are in a longer game and used to filter the quality of draws. Ponder is meant for decks looking for a very specific answer/card and the shuffle effect is also very important to prevent you from getting locked out by the top of your deck. You see more cards with a single Ponder than you do with a Preordain.
There's a very real reason why RUG Delver in Legacy uses 4 Ponder and not 4 Preordain. And Preordain is a distant 3rd to Brainstorm and Ponder.
Hopefully that's enough explanation.
Accumulated Knowledge is meant for slower, draw-go control style decks where you drag the game out and eventually with the 3rd and 4th one should be able to take over. Unless you have some way of getting AK's into the yard reliably. You look like you're a tempo deck so AK doesn't agree with that.
Is there a reason for the list to run 4 Memory Lapse before it runs 4 Counterspell in a mono-island mana base? And with such a low land count I would think free spells like Gush, Daze, Snap are what you're looking for.