Sure Live/Die can get there but you'd have to play two copies of Live, prior to playing one Die to make that happen. That is very inefficient.
Personally I think there are better options even than RtB and GoD, but, those are direct replacements which outshine the Live/Die Combo, and they are not dependent upon getting the proper sequencing.
While Scavenger can recur rages and chits, it's cant return Gary, like Gravedigger or Ghoulcaller can. Those are more mana efficient, and in a pinch you can recur gravediggers over and over again. YMMV of course and I love to see people using the newer cards. I play a lot of standard pauper and Scavenger/Rats is sweet there. Just not sure if it's worth diluting your deck with 2 mana 2/1's and a more expensive 5 mana creature that competes at the mana slot as the main card in your deck. Devotion and removing black mana symbols from play just kind of but heads.
Sure Live/Die can get there but you'd have to play two copies of Live, prior to playing one Die to make that happen. That is very inefficient.
Personally I think there are better options even than RtB and GoD, but, those are direct replacements which outshine the Live/Die Combo, and they are not dependent upon getting the proper sequencing.
While Scavenger can recur rages and chits, it's cant return Gary, like Gravedigger or Ghoulcaller can. Those are more mana efficient, and in a pinch you can recur gravediggers over and over again. YMMV of course and I love to see people using the newer cards. I play a lot of standard pauper and Scavenger/Rats is sweet there. Just not sure if it's worth diluting your deck with 2 mana 2/1's and a more expensive 5 mana creature that competes at the mana slot as the main card in your deck. Devotion and removing black mana symbols from play just kind of but heads.
The way I usually play out Live/Die is I will use early copies of Die on x/1s to save up left over Energy. I will use Victim for creatures Die can't hit early. After a couple copies of Live I usually have enough energy for any left over copies of Die to start hitting bigger things as well. Its all about play sequencing.
I understand where you are coming from but I will say that in play it works out better than you are imagining. For scavenger, its the versatility that really sets it over the edge because it can be a beater but it can also recur other cards. Sure it can't get Gary but often if you have it then you don't always need Gary either. I replaced Angler with Scavenger and there have been more than a few occasions where Scavenger was able to win games Angler never would have. Oddly, Scavenger rewards you for having several pips on the board like Gary does. Because Scavenger has an anthem AND grants Menace to your team (once flipped) it also encourages you to have a lot of creatures on board. And it has an ability that helps make that happen. Gary also likes a lot of creatures on board for the pips. So they both want the same thing but for different reasons.
I'm not saying its strictly better than the prior builds of the deck but I think it warrants testing. For be its been very resilient and draws a TON of cards. Its rare to have fewer than 5 cards in hand with 12 draw spells in the deck, and 3 ways to get a few of those back PLUS the cycle lands as well. The deck digs extremely well and sees tons of cards and the synergy of each of them works pretty well.
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I certainly hope Scavenger/Rats starts to make some waves in pauper. I really like seeing new mechanics get their time to shine. I run them in several standard pauper decks I play and always get good results. I still think Scavenger/Rats is a bit to slow for classic pauper, but, it's something I want to try too. I don't know that MBC is the right shell for it. It's so flexible with the 1 color mana symbol, and has such good synergy with swarm decks that I really think it belongs there as a splash to and give decks some extra reach, but, I just don't have enough time to test everything. I hope it works well for you.
as far as Live/Die vs RtB/GoD:
I'm just not going to be convinced that a sorcery speed removal spell, that requires proper sequencing, is going to be as consistent than something that simply does the job better, or as good as, a large majority of the time............and I'm not even trying to go through all the other options that are superior to GoD. If AER adds some more "energy matters" cards, then I'll give it another shot, but for now, I think black already has pretty solid core of draw/removal that Live/Die simply isn't good enough to break through. It's also a nightmare for sideboarding. So let's say you're up against a deck that sorcery speed removal can't touch and you want to side out your Die's...........well now you're stuck with a bad draw spell too, because nothing else in your deck cares about energy besides Die. Read the Bones is just straight better than Live. Grasp is going to be better than Die more times than it's not......again, you would have had to play at least one Live prior to your first Die to make it equal to Grasp.........and it's still sorcery vs instant.
When playing standard pauper, we allow cards that were previously printed at common to be used. So Live/Die is currently up against GoD and Murder. Live/Die rarely makes the cut unless someone is playing a dedicated energy deck. Granted sorcery speed removal is pretty terrible in standard at the moment, but, no matter the format it's being played in, it's just adding extra layers of difficulty to get a result that is much more easy to obtain, and with less card investment. At the very least you are forcing yourself into a position to get 2 for 1'd. If Die gave more energy or was instant speed...........maybe, maybe. But, I'm willing to bet that as well as it's worked so far, there will be times where you are stuck because of bad sequencing and it costs you games you could have won if you had a better spell. In the long run, the math will win out.
In short agree to disagree on that one...........at least until you come around and admit I'm right. lol, j/k to each their own. who knows, maybe in a couple months we'll see some 5-0 mbc lists running live/die and I'll have to come back and take my medicine............but I just really can't imagine that would happen.
I used to get wrecked by the Okiba-Gang Shinobi, but somehow I can't get too much value out of it when I play it with Ninjutsu. It feels like such a slow and methodical deck.
Specter is sort of the same because of how fragile it is, but it does allow for better chance at Ninjutsu.
Removal is hit-or-miss. Sometimes I wish I had Disfigure, sometimes I wish I had the other.
Tendrils and Corrupt feel so powerful when you get to cast it, but they can be easily countered or played around.
Overall, I fell that this deck is too slow now. Or am I playing the wrong version?
Its too slow if you aren't playing Gary in the main. Honestly, he is the whole reason to even play mono-B. Chaining Gary's together is the way this deck wins. It can come out of nowhere and come from behind and secure victories like no other. Without Gary, the deck just doesn't have the reach or longevity necessary to pull out the wins. AND! Gary works really well with Okiba Gang because people will often block the biggest threat (Angler usually) which let's Gary through so you can Ninjitsu it maddening about of value.
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I don't like Liliana's Specter, because current meta has man ytokens and small creatures, which makes Cuombajj Witches a very good tool, but it doesn't work with Liliana's Specter.
At first Ithought most value of Oubliette comes from the devotion it provides - that is important, but the most significant value comes from being able to handle Stormbound Geist and Young Wolf with one card.
I don't like Ravenous Rats. I'd prefer Specter without Witches especially if you are playing Gary. Otherwise Wicked Akuba can do a LOT of damage.
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I don't like Ravenous Rats. I'd prefer Specter without Witches especially if you are playing Gary. Otherwise Wicked Akuba can do a LOT of damage.
Ravenous Rats I mostly include just to have something on the lower end of the curve that has an upside, do you think Duress might just be better?
Witches I haven't had too much luck with in the last few games, but it has had games where it has been amazing, and especially against Kuldotha I think it has some value, and 2 devotion for 2 mana isn't that bad.
In general I've been trying to switch away from a creature focused build and transition into CA almost entirely. I'm now running 6 to 7 read the bones effects with a much greater discard package than before and I've been having good luck with it, even against blue based control decks which used to be a terrible matchup. Anyone doing similar?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I don't like Ravenous Rats. I'd prefer Specter without Witches especially if you are playing Gary. Otherwise Wicked Akuba can do a LOT of damage.
Ravenous Rats I mostly include just to have something on the lower end of the curve that has an upside, do you think Duress might just be better?
Witches I haven't had too much luck with in the last few games, but it has had games where it has been amazing, and especially against Kuldotha I think it has some value, and 2 devotion for 2 mana isn't that bad.
In general I've been trying to switch away from a creature focused build and transition into CA almost entirely. I'm now running 6 to 7 read the bones effects with a much greater discard package than before and I've been having good luck with it, even against blue based control decks which used to be a terrible matchup. Anyone doing similar?
Actually this is why I like Midnight Scavengers + Graf Rats over Gurmag Angler + Ravenous Rats/Cuombajj Witches. 1) It gives you a lower cmc play which helps you pressure slower opponents and slow down faster opponents and 2) Scavengers gives you card advantage in the late game which Angler can't do. Scavengers can get back any < 3cmc drop you want such as Rats for a big beater to finish off the opponent, Rager to draw more cards (because you get ANOTHER body + card off of Scavengers at that point. REALLY good play), Liliana's Specter/Chittering Rats which is still CA.
Quick dissertation on Rats + Scavengers: I've used their recursion ability to set up bigger Gary's after several trades with the opponent to thin their board. You drop a Scavengers to grab something else, play it, and then next turn drop a Gary for 4-5 where you would have only gotten 2 before. Oh, and that's a drain for 4-5 plus you have creatures on board to attack with...Plus if you can get Chittering Host to flip, its one of the single best creatures available in Pauper (5/6 Menace Haste with ETB +1/+0 and Meance to your team). While I think its typically the wrong play to try and push for the flip, in the situations where it happens organically (you have both creatures in hand and the opponent as no cards in hand, etc.) you pretty much just win. Having Haste is a REALLY BIG DEAL. Its not unusual to hit large land counts in MBC and being able to turn 7 mana into a bare minimum 5 damage that turn is a BIG deal. That's a better return than both Gary AND Angler. AND if your opponent happens to have the two blockers necessary to stop your Menacing threat, then its big enough to chew through most opposition and live. I dunno, its not to be underestimated but you also have to know how to play it and just trying to ram it out there and force the flip is probably the wrong play like 80% of the time. Its best to play it patient and use it to gain card advantage and work the game state in your favor before playing for the flip. Remember, you are the control deck.
While Angler matches up better against opposing Anglers and Fangren Marauders (for Tron), I think the overall power level of Scavengers in other match ups really make it worth it. It pumps any other creature you have on the board as well which can represent as much damage as a Gary sometimes.
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I've been playing this in paper with an 85% established meta, Falkenrath Noble is a qt and breaks stalemates better than Witches. Shriveling Goblins or Weenie/Sisters while he's out if just vulgar.
Since Affinity is popular at my LGS and that means everyone who can is packing Disenchant/Naturalize I dropped Oubliette for Duress and have been doing better. Yes, Gary hits a little softer but now almost all my removal is instant speed and the thing I wanted gone is less likely to return.
I do agree the deck feels a little slower than before, nowadays everyone is getting more stupid threats by the day and we haven't been thrown a good control bone since Innistrad. Let's hope Amonkhet staples Cruel Edict to a 2/X for 1BB or something.
I've been doing very well with something rotating around this list, (3-1, 3-0-1, 4-0 with this in 7 of my last 10 local events, avg. 10-14 people, lots of U Delver, Burn, Mardu Metalcraft, UR Combo, Dimir Control, Bogles, Tron, Affinity, Stompy, and Naya Aggro all see regular play.)
Creature Choices
I am torn about taking out Cuombajj Witches for Liliana's Spectre because it increases the curve and makes the deck slightly worse against U Delver, but flying hand destruction is also good against many decks and our lack of flyers is an issue at times, and I am using two Crypt Rats to make up for the loss of removal and damage. Spectre and Rats also get more value out of Unearth and Undying Evil that Cumbojj, in return for being heavier on 3 drops and needing a 24th land.
Removal Choices Oubliette is huge if you want the deck to be competitive. Disfigure is very powerful and I could easily run 3 of them or a 1-of Dead Weight. Pestilence or Crypt Rats is very powerful main, though you could run something else, of course. Clearly, I essentially want opposing decks to kill or counter Crypt Rats just so I can deplete their hand and then Unearth it and wipe their board. Going heavy on Unearth and Undying Evil makes a stronger case for Spectre and Crypt Rats instead of Pestilence and Cuombajj Witches.
Tech Choices
Many decks don't run Unearth or any kind of recursion in the main. Sometimes they will run Duress or even more removal. All depends on the meta.
Sideboard Undying Evil has been very good where you want to recur creature effects, especially against other removal-heavy decks or Burn with Gnomes/Chittering Rats. However, as good as it is, it definitely means you are not running other options. Choking Sands is necessary if you ever want to beat Tron, but also some other mana greedy decks.
Options Innocent Blood is a fantastic removal card if you face a lot of Bogles. Corrupt is clearly good and lifegain is always value, but I wouldn't run more than 1 these days, the format is pretty fast and lots of countermagic. Cuombajj Witches is a great creature in the right meta and if you are not pursuing the line I am here, I would swap out Spectre for Witches. Pestilence is the best sweeper in the deck and it works with Gary very nicely. Shrivel is great against Ux Delver, Elves, and other decks with a lot of x/1 creatures, but I think right now it is not great. Evincar's Justice is interesting if you you can't risk waiting on your sweeper a turn. Echoing Decay is another option that ca be good if the format speeds up with decks playing multiples of things or generating tokens.. Font of Return is fine, if a bit slow. Okiba-Gang Shinobi is always interesting, especially if you are expecting to face decks where hand destruction is essential. Wrench Mind is good hand destruction if there aren't too many artifact decks in your locals.
Alternate, more "common" build which I run because it is using Cuombajj Witches and Pestilence, and no Spectre and Rats main (sideboards vary wildly, the only staples IMO are Duress, graveyard hate, and Choking Sands, this one is oriented against Burn since the maindeck has much less lifegain.)
EDIT: Went with the more common build because of U Delver at my locals, went 3-0, would have gone 4-0 most likely (beat Burn, UG Eldrazi Ramp, 4C Tokens, and drew into first with Infect, which is a really good match for us.)
The format has gotten much more aggressive finally thanks to the decision to print Burning-Tree Emissary as a common. Maximize your removal. This is what I am moving to after the matches I had against the Stompy decks last night (they play a lot of 2-for 1 creatures that allow them to get round Edict effect, so take that into account.)
Graveyard recursion is too slow and does too little, and in the meantime exiling graveyards at instant speed to gain life is just fine. Lands that don't cycle need to be swamps. I am also heavily fortified against Burn and Tron decks, as well as U Delver. Pestilence in the side could very well be Evincar's Justice. The 1-of Corrupt is for slow matches where lifegain is tacked to a wincon, but it could very much be the 2nd Gurmag Angler.
i have a question for those of you that play paper pauper. i'm going to be making some pauper decks and decided that mbc would be good to have. going back a few comments here (looking for the most current) i noticed nobody mentioned hymn to tourach or raven's crime and was wondering why?
if i had to guess hymn might be too slow and r.c. might be a worse duress (even if it is repeatable) plus it's a nonbo with corrupt and tendrils? am i on the right track here or am i missing something?
@Bear_Puncher
Allowing someone else to choose what they discard, and not seeing their hand is always worse than seeing their hand and choosing, unless they only have 1 card in hand.
Hymn would be amazing because, unlike Wrench Mind, the discard is random and unconditional, but unless they print it as a common online, it won't be legal in Pauper.
@everyone
I am looking forward to using Thorn of the Black Rose. Taking out two rats because of the speed of the aggro game right now. The only thing I am missing right now are some graveyard recursion cards, but I don't feel like I have room in this meta.
NZB2323: As a theme deck I think it's fun, but if the only tribal payoff is Swarm of Rats, I don't think it's superior in terms of overall power level. If only Swarmyard was a common.. I have a playset at home I'm dying to use!
I've been researching this deck in the past week or so and I have formed some opinions about some of the conventional cards for MBC.
Cuombajj Witches: This card is cool. And versus tokens, elves, and delver it's quite good. But in most matchups it's not much better than a 2/2 that only attacks for 1. It's especially mediocre against the heavier control decks like Tron and UB, where monoblack has to go beatdown. I stumbled upon Ghoulcaller's Accomplice, which as a 2/2 with flashback fits perfectly into Monoblack's midrange card advantage game.
Geth's Verdict/Chainer's Edict: There are many tokens and small creatures these days, which really makes these depressing to play. Grasp of Darkness is just more reliable.
Disfigure: There are a ton of pump effects that counter Disfigure, including the 0-mana Mutagenic growth. When you add in it's value against larger creatures, I think Dead Weight is just the better card right now.
I am considering to built MBC for my LGS. The meta is described here, so I will copy it.
I have seen a lot of Trons, Affinity, Mono U Delver, Elves, some Burns, one MBC and some home brew. I expected better result but I guess I need to practice more. I really struggle against Tron and Affinty with my Mono U Delver, have no idea how to beat them actually.
The problem is I cannot get in my stores (in my country) the card Choking Sands thus I doubt I will be successful against Tron If I decide to built an MBC deck. But those three Tron players bring usually more decks and rotate them (tournament to tournament), so maybe next time there will be less Trons.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
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Active player in years 1999-2004.
Mono U Draw & Go fan
Decks:
Modern - Mono U Tron, UR Delver
Legacy - UR Delver
Pauper - BGRUW Tron, Mono U Delver, Mono B Control
Personally I think there are better options even than RtB and GoD, but, those are direct replacements which outshine the Live/Die Combo, and they are not dependent upon getting the proper sequencing.
While Scavenger can recur rages and chits, it's cant return Gary, like Gravedigger or Ghoulcaller can. Those are more mana efficient, and in a pinch you can recur gravediggers over and over again. YMMV of course and I love to see people using the newer cards. I play a lot of standard pauper and Scavenger/Rats is sweet there. Just not sure if it's worth diluting your deck with 2 mana 2/1's and a more expensive 5 mana creature that competes at the mana slot as the main card in your deck. Devotion and removing black mana symbols from play just kind of but heads.
The way I usually play out Live/Die is I will use early copies of Die on x/1s to save up left over Energy. I will use Victim for creatures Die can't hit early. After a couple copies of Live I usually have enough energy for any left over copies of Die to start hitting bigger things as well. Its all about play sequencing.
I understand where you are coming from but I will say that in play it works out better than you are imagining. For scavenger, its the versatility that really sets it over the edge because it can be a beater but it can also recur other cards. Sure it can't get Gary but often if you have it then you don't always need Gary either. I replaced Angler with Scavenger and there have been more than a few occasions where Scavenger was able to win games Angler never would have. Oddly, Scavenger rewards you for having several pips on the board like Gary does. Because Scavenger has an anthem AND grants Menace to your team (once flipped) it also encourages you to have a lot of creatures on board. And it has an ability that helps make that happen. Gary also likes a lot of creatures on board for the pips. So they both want the same thing but for different reasons.
I'm not saying its strictly better than the prior builds of the deck but I think it warrants testing. For be its been very resilient and draws a TON of cards. Its rare to have fewer than 5 cards in hand with 12 draw spells in the deck, and 3 ways to get a few of those back PLUS the cycle lands as well. The deck digs extremely well and sees tons of cards and the synergy of each of them works pretty well.
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as far as Live/Die vs RtB/GoD:
I'm just not going to be convinced that a sorcery speed removal spell, that requires proper sequencing, is going to be as consistent than something that simply does the job better, or as good as, a large majority of the time............and I'm not even trying to go through all the other options that are superior to GoD. If AER adds some more "energy matters" cards, then I'll give it another shot, but for now, I think black already has pretty solid core of draw/removal that Live/Die simply isn't good enough to break through. It's also a nightmare for sideboarding. So let's say you're up against a deck that sorcery speed removal can't touch and you want to side out your Die's...........well now you're stuck with a bad draw spell too, because nothing else in your deck cares about energy besides Die. Read the Bones is just straight better than Live. Grasp is going to be better than Die more times than it's not......again, you would have had to play at least one Live prior to your first Die to make it equal to Grasp.........and it's still sorcery vs instant.
When playing standard pauper, we allow cards that were previously printed at common to be used. So Live/Die is currently up against GoD and Murder. Live/Die rarely makes the cut unless someone is playing a dedicated energy deck. Granted sorcery speed removal is pretty terrible in standard at the moment, but, no matter the format it's being played in, it's just adding extra layers of difficulty to get a result that is much more easy to obtain, and with less card investment. At the very least you are forcing yourself into a position to get 2 for 1'd. If Die gave more energy or was instant speed...........maybe, maybe. But, I'm willing to bet that as well as it's worked so far, there will be times where you are stuck because of bad sequencing and it costs you games you could have won if you had a better spell. In the long run, the math will win out.
In short agree to disagree on that one...........at least until you come around and admit I'm right. lol, j/k to each their own. who knows, maybe in a couple months we'll see some 5-0 mbc lists running live/die and I'll have to come back and take my medicine............but I just really can't imagine that would happen.
Its too slow if you aren't playing Gary in the main. Honestly, he is the whole reason to even play mono-B. Chaining Gary's together is the way this deck wins. It can come out of nowhere and come from behind and secure victories like no other. Without Gary, the deck just doesn't have the reach or longevity necessary to pull out the wins. AND! Gary works really well with Okiba Gang because people will often block the biggest threat (Angler usually) which let's Gary through so you can Ninjitsu it maddening about of value.
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At first Ithought most value of Oubliette comes from the devotion it provides - that is important, but the most significant value comes from being able to handle Stormbound Geist and Young Wolf with one card.
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Ravenous Rats I mostly include just to have something on the lower end of the curve that has an upside, do you think Duress might just be better?
Witches I haven't had too much luck with in the last few games, but it has had games where it has been amazing, and especially against Kuldotha I think it has some value, and 2 devotion for 2 mana isn't that bad.
In general I've been trying to switch away from a creature focused build and transition into CA almost entirely. I'm now running 6 to 7 read the bones effects with a much greater discard package than before and I've been having good luck with it, even against blue based control decks which used to be a terrible matchup. Anyone doing similar?
Actually this is why I like Midnight Scavengers + Graf Rats over Gurmag Angler + Ravenous Rats/Cuombajj Witches. 1) It gives you a lower cmc play which helps you pressure slower opponents and slow down faster opponents and 2) Scavengers gives you card advantage in the late game which Angler can't do. Scavengers can get back any < 3cmc drop you want such as Rats for a big beater to finish off the opponent, Rager to draw more cards (because you get ANOTHER body + card off of Scavengers at that point. REALLY good play), Liliana's Specter/Chittering Rats which is still CA.
Quick dissertation on Rats + Scavengers: I've used their recursion ability to set up bigger Gary's after several trades with the opponent to thin their board. You drop a Scavengers to grab something else, play it, and then next turn drop a Gary for 4-5 where you would have only gotten 2 before. Oh, and that's a drain for 4-5 plus you have creatures on board to attack with...Plus if you can get Chittering Host to flip, its one of the single best creatures available in Pauper (5/6 Menace Haste with ETB +1/+0 and Meance to your team). While I think its typically the wrong play to try and push for the flip, in the situations where it happens organically (you have both creatures in hand and the opponent as no cards in hand, etc.) you pretty much just win. Having Haste is a REALLY BIG DEAL. Its not unusual to hit large land counts in MBC and being able to turn 7 mana into a bare minimum 5 damage that turn is a BIG deal. That's a better return than both Gary AND Angler. AND if your opponent happens to have the two blockers necessary to stop your Menacing threat, then its big enough to chew through most opposition and live. I dunno, its not to be underestimated but you also have to know how to play it and just trying to ram it out there and force the flip is probably the wrong play like 80% of the time. Its best to play it patient and use it to gain card advantage and work the game state in your favor before playing for the flip. Remember, you are the control deck.
While Angler matches up better against opposing Anglers and Fangren Marauders (for Tron), I think the overall power level of Scavengers in other match ups really make it worth it. It pumps any other creature you have on the board as well which can represent as much damage as a Gary sometimes.
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4x Barren Moor
4x Chittering Rats
4x Phyrexian Rager
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2x Falkenrath Noble
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Sign in Blood
4x Geth's Verdict
2x Chainer's Edict
2x Disfigure
2x Victim of Night
2x Tendrils of Corruption
2x Duress
2x Ghoulcaller's Chant
2x Okiba-Gang Shinobi
2x Shrivel
2x Duress
2x Wrench Mind
2x Viridian Longbow
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Bojuka Bog
I've been playing this in paper with an 85% established meta, Falkenrath Noble is a qt and breaks stalemates better than Witches. Shriveling Goblins or Weenie/Sisters while he's out if just vulgar.
Since Affinity is popular at my LGS and that means everyone who can is packing Disenchant/Naturalize I dropped Oubliette for Duress and have been doing better. Yes, Gary hits a little softer but now almost all my removal is instant speed and the thing I wanted gone is less likely to return.
I do agree the deck feels a little slower than before, nowadays everyone is getting more stupid threats by the day and we haven't been thrown a good control bone since Innistrad. Let's hope Amonkhet staples Cruel Edict to a 2/X for 1BB or something.
19 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures 19
4 Chittering Rats
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Liliana's Specter
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Crypt Rats
4 Sign in Blood
Removal 10
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Disfigure
2 Oubliette
1 Victim of Night
1 Tendrils of Corruption
Tech 3
3 Unearth
4 Choking Sands
3 Duress
3 Undying Evil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Corrupt
1 Crypt Rats
Creature Choices
I am torn about taking out Cuombajj Witches for Liliana's Spectre because it increases the curve and makes the deck slightly worse against U Delver, but flying hand destruction is also good against many decks and our lack of flyers is an issue at times, and I am using two Crypt Rats to make up for the loss of removal and damage. Spectre and Rats also get more value out of Unearth and Undying Evil that Cumbojj, in return for being heavier on 3 drops and needing a 24th land.
Removal Choices
Oubliette is huge if you want the deck to be competitive. Disfigure is very powerful and I could easily run 3 of them or a 1-of Dead Weight. Pestilence or Crypt Rats is very powerful main, though you could run something else, of course. Clearly, I essentially want opposing decks to kill or counter Crypt Rats just so I can deplete their hand and then Unearth it and wipe their board. Going heavy on Unearth and Undying Evil makes a stronger case for Spectre and Crypt Rats instead of Pestilence and Cuombajj Witches.
Tech Choices
Many decks don't run Unearth or any kind of recursion in the main. Sometimes they will run Duress or even more removal. All depends on the meta.
Sideboard
Undying Evil has been very good where you want to recur creature effects, especially against other removal-heavy decks or Burn with Gnomes/Chittering Rats. However, as good as it is, it definitely means you are not running other options.
Choking Sands is necessary if you ever want to beat Tron, but also some other mana greedy decks.
Options
Innocent Blood is a fantastic removal card if you face a lot of Bogles.
Corrupt is clearly good and lifegain is always value, but I wouldn't run more than 1 these days, the format is pretty fast and lots of countermagic.
Cuombajj Witches is a great creature in the right meta and if you are not pursuing the line I am here, I would swap out Spectre for Witches.
Pestilence is the best sweeper in the deck and it works with Gary very nicely.
Shrivel is great against Ux Delver, Elves, and other decks with a lot of x/1 creatures, but I think right now it is not great.
Evincar's Justice is interesting if you you can't risk waiting on your sweeper a turn.
Echoing Decay is another option that ca be good if the format speeds up with decks playing multiples of things or generating tokens..
Font of Return is fine, if a bit slow.
Okiba-Gang Shinobi is always interesting, especially if you are expecting to face decks where hand destruction is essential.
Wrench Mind is good hand destruction if there aren't too many artifact decks in your locals.
Alternate, more "common" build which I run because it is using Cuombajj Witches and Pestilence, and no Spectre and Rats main (sideboards vary wildly, the only staples IMO are Duress, graveyard hate, and Choking Sands, this one is oriented against Burn since the maindeck has much less lifegain.)
19 Swamp
3 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures 18
4 Chittering Rats
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Cuombajj Witches
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
4 Sign in Blood
Removal 14
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Disfigure
2 Oubliette
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Victim of Night
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Pestilence
Tech 1
1 Undying Evil
4 Choking Sands
2 Bottle Gnomes
3 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Innocent Blood
2 Corrupt
1 Tendrils of Corruption
EDIT: Went with the more common build because of U Delver at my locals, went 3-0, would have gone 4-0 most likely (beat Burn, UG Eldrazi Ramp, 4C Tokens, and drew into first with Infect, which is a really good match for us.)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
18 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
Creatures 17
4 Chittering Rats
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Cuombajj Witches
1 Gurmag Angler
Draw 4
4 Sign in Blood
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Disfigure
2 Oubliette
1 Geth's Verdict
2 Victim of Night
2 Echoing Decay
1 Tragic Slip
1 Pestilence
2 Duress
4 Choking Sands
3 Bottle Gnomes
3 Crypt Incursion
2 Duress
1 Rancid Earth
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Pestilence
Graveyard recursion is too slow and does too little, and in the meantime exiling graveyards at instant speed to gain life is just fine. Lands that don't cycle need to be swamps. I am also heavily fortified against Burn and Tron decks, as well as U Delver. Pestilence in the side could very well be Evincar's Justice. The 1-of Corrupt is for slow matches where lifegain is tacked to a wincon, but it could very much be the 2nd Gurmag Angler.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
if i had to guess hymn might be too slow and r.c. might be a worse duress (even if it is repeatable) plus it's a nonbo with corrupt and tendrils? am i on the right track here or am i missing something?
Allowing someone else to choose what they discard, and not seeing their hand is always worse than seeing their hand and choosing, unless they only have 1 card in hand.
Hymn would be amazing because, unlike Wrench Mind, the discard is random and unconditional, but unless they print it as a common online, it won't be legal in Pauper.
@everyone
I am looking forward to using Thorn of the Black Rose. Taking out two rats because of the speed of the aggro game right now. The only thing I am missing right now are some graveyard recursion cards, but I don't feel like I have room in this meta.
18 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
Creatures 17
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Cuombajj Witches
2 Chittering Rats
2 Thorn of the Black Rose
1 Gurmag Angler
Draw 4
4 Sign in Blood
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Disfigure
2 Oubliette
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Victim of Night
2 Echoing Decay
1 Tragic Slip
1 Pestilence
Tech 1
1 Crypt Incursion
4 Choking Sands
4 Duress
3 Bottle Gnomes
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Rancid Earth
1 Pestilence
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 geth's verdict
Creatures
4 typhoid rats
4 ravenous rats
4 swarm of rats
4 pestilence rats
4 chittering rats
4 phyrexian ravenger
4 Okiba-gang shinobi
22 swamp
2 barren moor
2 disfigure
2 echoing decay
3 duress
2 corrupt
2 sign in blood
2 Gurmag Angler
2 choking sands
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
4 Bloodhunter bat
4 Okiba gang shinobi
4 Phyrexian ravenger
4 Chittering rats
4 Ravenous rats
4 Swarm of rats
4 Typhoid rats
4 Vault skirge
2 barren moor
2 duress
2 geth's verdict
2 unmake
2 choking sands
2 Gurmag Angler
2 disfigure
2 tormod's crypt
1 sorin's vengeance
What do you guys think?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I've been researching this deck in the past week or so and I have formed some opinions about some of the conventional cards for MBC.
Cuombajj Witches: This card is cool. And versus tokens, elves, and delver it's quite good. But in most matchups it's not much better than a 2/2 that only attacks for 1. It's especially mediocre against the heavier control decks like Tron and UB, where monoblack has to go beatdown. I stumbled upon Ghoulcaller's Accomplice, which as a 2/2 with flashback fits perfectly into Monoblack's midrange card advantage game.
Geth's Verdict/Chainer's Edict: There are many tokens and small creatures these days, which really makes these depressing to play. Grasp of Darkness is just more reliable.
Disfigure: There are a ton of pump effects that counter Disfigure, including the 0-mana Mutagenic growth. When you add in it's value against larger creatures, I think Dead Weight is just the better card right now.
4 Chittering Rats
4 Phyrexian Rager
3 Liliana’s Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Unearth
4 Sign In Blood
4 Victim of Night
4 Grasp of Darkness
16 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
3 Cradle of the Accursed
1 Crypt Rats
1 Dead Weight
2 Evincar’s Justice
2 Font of Return
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Choking Sands
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Creature list:
4 dead weight
4 grasp of darkness
Creatures 28
4 Fourth bridge prowler
4 ravenous rats
4 chittering rats
4 phyrexian horror
4 bloodhunter bat
4 okiba-gang shinobi
4 gray merchant of asphodel
2 barren moor
22 swamp
2 geth's verdict
2 shrivel
2 sorin's vengeance
2 duress
2 choking sands
2 relic of progenitus
2 cumbochi witches
1 unmake
Creatureless list:
4 Wayfarer's bauble
4 Armillary sphere
Spells 28
4 duress
4 innocent blood
4 tragic slip
4 sign in blood
4 tendrils of corruption
4 corrupt
4 consume spirit
2 barren moor
22 swamp
2 shrivel
2 envicar's justice
2 pestilence
3 relic of progenitus
2 unmake
2 wrench mind
2 sorin's vengeance
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I have seen a lot of Trons, Affinity, Mono U Delver, Elves, some Burns, one MBC and some home brew. I expected better result but I guess I need to practice more. I really struggle against Tron and Affinty with my Mono U Delver, have no idea how to beat them actually.
The problem is I cannot get in my stores (in my country) the card Choking Sands thus I doubt I will be successful against Tron If I decide to built an MBC deck. But those three Tron players bring usually more decks and rotate them (tournament to tournament), so maybe next time there will be less Trons.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Mono U Draw & Go fan
Decks:
Modern - Mono U Tron, UR Delver
Legacy - UR Delver
Pauper - BGRUW Tron, Mono U Delver, Mono B Control
[Developing] 430+ Peasant Cube Thread --- [and on Cube Cobra]
Mono U Draw & Go fan
Decks:
Modern - Mono U Tron, UR Delver
Legacy - UR Delver
Pauper - BGRUW Tron, Mono U Delver, Mono B Control
Mono U Draw & Go fan
Decks:
Modern - Mono U Tron, UR Delver
Legacy - UR Delver
Pauper - BGRUW Tron, Mono U Delver, Mono B Control