Yeah the Perilous version seems a lot stronger than the traditional builds to me too. I always found Disciple to be dead weight a lot of the time anyways if you didn't draw him alongside Atog so losing him isn't a big deal. Other than that the only creatures you're losing from the traditional build are maybe a couple Somber Hoverguards which were never that great either. In exchange you get a much more explosive, much more consistent deck.
Yeah i've tested it a bit and it is very strong for sure. Ichor Wellspring very easily nets you 2 cards since both Perilous Research and Atog lets it hit the GY.
The list i've come up with right now looks like this:
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
4 Ancient Den
2 Vault of Whispers
As you can see i'm struggling to include a full 4-copies of both Research and Wellspring. I'm not sure if playing a split 3/3 is best or if it should be 2/4 or 4/2. I'm actually leaning more to playing 4 Wellspring and only 2 Research but I will play around more with 3/3 split to see both cards in action!
I dont want to cut down the land count to 16-17, I really feel like 18 is a safer and more consistent number overall.
You could ditch the 2 Flings and then add one more Research and Wellspring to make the deck a card-drawing beast but having the Fling wincon is always nice in games where you're in a stalemate or if you are behind, Fling can easily win those for you. Removing Fling also makes Atog less interesting and running 4 Atog without any Flings in the deck is probably not the right thing to do which in turn makes Wellspring worse if you start cutting Atogs for Hoverguard/Sunchaser (which I think would be the creature(s) of choice to take Atogs place).
Would be awesome with some feedback on the list and thoughts on improvements!
I have never tried Affinity without 4 Frogmite in the list and i'm fairly sure it is not something you should cut, ever.
Frogmite allows for explosive plays, works really well with Springleaf Drum, fodder for Atog and it just lets you play all your spells so much faster in general. Being a 2/2 body as well is just a bonus.
Something that I have tried however is cutting Atog, DotV, Fling amongst others and playing 4 Sunchaser + Hoverguard coupled with 2-4 Bonesplitter for pure aggro. Being able to have 5 power flyers on turn 3-5 is not uncommon and quite strong i'd say!
Just tried it out myself and will say it does slow you down.
My list runs Disciple of the Vault and Carapace Forger. I find this more consistent with more 4/4s, the deck usually win without ever playing Atog but it's there if needed and the Disciples are really good with the Chromatic Stars/Spheres, the Shaman and obviously Atog.
Sacrificing artifacts must not be a drawback but something you want. With Disciple on the board, I often win just by feeding the Shaman a few lands. Let's imagine you have 2 Disciples and that's just game. Especially when playing 4 Blast (which is an auto-include for me).
Serene Heart and Tranquillity are what I personally use against GW Aura.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The idea behind this was to be a midrange deck with less mana issues. Despite having what I feel is a good amount of mana fixing, I find myself running into mana issues. However I am just trying out Terrarion, as Chromatic Sphere was previously in that spot, so I am hoping that will help.
I've just really began working on this list, so I have no matchup data or anything like that.
Odd card choices include Fangren Marauder and the guildgates. Guildgates are intended to fix mana issues, and Marauder is in against aggro decks and works well against RUGTron.
Sideboard is in need of help
The deck is fun, but I know needs work. Any comments, advice, and questions welcome. Thank you in advance
On Journey to Nowhere, I don't think it is necessary since all your creatures are way stronger than any random aggro deck's creatures or MBC's creatures. It also costs 2 mana and is sorcery speed (compare how poor that is in relation to Galvanic Blast) while half your deck is already 2cc cards. I think you're better off drawing 4/4s or draw/cycle spells.
Serene Heart goes for 92 cents with major traders, and should not be difficult to find if you are willing to pay that. If you don't want to pay 3 mana for Tranquility, then maybe Leave No Trace is a suboptimal replacement for serene heart.
Krark-Clan Shaman is better than electrickery because it can do more damage (if you hold priority by holding the Control key while using his ability) you can customize his effect to what you need. Also playing one may alter an opponents playstyle, and he costs only one mana versus electrickery's two (and 2cc is very crowded in affinity). Electrickery is the better card versus fliers obviously so that's why some people opt for that.
And of course, playing and testing is a way better way to build sideboards than theorizing :). Have Fun!
Mind=Blown.
I've lost more games then I care to think about (mostly to stompy decks) b/c I did not know that piece of tech.
i could use some input for sure. i fear the land count could be too low (partially compensated by the 4 flayer husk and the draw spells).
perilious research felt amazing, used as a combat trick, on a germ or on rancor.
about the side, the 2 gnaw to the bone are for mbc, which are the deck worst matchup even post side. what do you usually side in vs mbc?
Most lists play a singleton Darksteel Citadel as a 17th land. Some even play two copies of Citadel and run 18 lands, but I've found 17 to be sufficient.
The MBC matchup will always be pretty bad for you just by the nature of your two decks. Affinity is a slower, more midrange aggro deck and MBC can just pick decks like that apart with their spot removal. If you want to beat MBC consistently you either need to be a deck that can go under them/overwhelm them before they can gain the edge with their removal and 2-for-1 creatures or you need to play a deck with a superior long game. That's not to say Affinity can't beat MBC, however it is definitely in MBC's favor. I can't think of too many cards, but something you could try is Reaping the Graves which I've seen in some Affinity sideboards. Combining it with something cheap to boost storm (like a Chromatic Star) and getting back a couple of your Myr Enforcers or Carapace Forgers could be strong against a deck like MBC. You'd have to run Vault of Whispers and not play Auriok Sunchaser to support that though, but I'm not convinced playing white for Auriok Sunchaser is even worth it. Most of the top Affinity lists run the Atog-Fling package and Disciple of the Vault, ignoring white altogether. In any case, Gnaw to the Bone is not what you need against MBC. They're not trying to aggro you out and the lifegain isn't really that important outside of maybe saving you from Gray Merchant.
I'm also not huge on Rancor in this deck, I don't feel like it helps your weaknesses and it's not really something you need to help you win either.
I put some thought into it, and decided to swap them (and a hydroblast) with 3 standard bearers, which give me another good reason to play white (hoses kiln fiend decks, infect and stompy, and they're not completely irrelevant vs mbc).
reaping the graves is really interesting though, thanks.
i guess i could play the hoverguards instead of the sunchasers if i needed to splash black.
i thought rancor would be lackluster at first as well, but it's the cheapest trample effect available, the +2/+0 does wonders, and you actually hope it makes opponents go out of their way to get rid of it.
vs the mirror, it suddenly makes frogmites a threat. vs elves or goblins it gives them pressure.
16 lands doesn't screw me more than the usual, mainly because of flayer husk + springleaf drum. i started using atogs and i see they're impressive, especially if i come around a rancor, or if the rancor is on an artifact creature or a flayer husk.
rancor functionally replicates fling (goes to the sb in the same matchups i would sideboard fling). the choice here is to play the attrition game instead of going all in with fling. it has the downside of not being removal in a pinch, but it can be used as perilous research sacrifice when i don't want to sacrifice a land or an artifact.
i can't be more in love with flayer husk by the way. chump blocker against elves/goblins, sac fodder for mbc, mana fixer with drums, sac fodder for perilous research, threat (and distraction for other threats in play) with a rancor. i wish there was another 1drop artifact creature that could do this much.
unless you stumble on the first turns, affinity should have a faster clock than tron. so no stone rain on sb so far (even if it could be useful against ur and delver with karoos/quicksands) for me.
There have been a couple interesting variants placing in the last couple days - one with 4x quicksilver behemoth and 2x dragon wings and the other with 4x flayer husk and 1x rancor; most interestingly, neither of them run Fling at all. They're both in this daily listing:
i played the rancor version with these changes:
-1 atog +1 treasure cruise
-1 profetic prism + 1 terrarion
i need to say that if you can't make mulligan decisions right this setup will make you lose more games than you can count, the initial hand is the most critical part of the game, and the early game after that.
random thoughts:
1 rancor seems like the right number. flex spot if you're against creatureless deck, no risk of drawing 2, great sinergy in baiting when cast on a frogmite or a germ.
1 treasure cruise seems the right number as well maindeck. it helps if you are ahead, is tremendously needed when you are behind, it's another must counter spell for blue decks and another headache for monoblack. i am trying one copy in side too to be used against mono b.
about prism and terrarion, i found out that terrarion might be the better choice, as i usually need the fixing just once, can cast it on turn one and if needed it can be sacrificed to draw, while the prism usually sat in my hand until late game, and usually made little impact.
the quicksilver behemoth choice is interesting - but i wouldn't go anywhere with it until i see at my lgs all delvers and all cloud of fairies gone. if i had a blueless meta i'd be going on it at once.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
treasure cruise works so well i am putting one in the sideboard for matches where my gy is bound to get big (that is delver or mono-b).
so far my draw suite main deck is
4 thoughtcast
2 perilous research
1 treasure cruise
i've been tempted to let go of the perilous research, but the fizzle on corrupt when against mono black is really game-changing.
another strategy that saved my butt against familiar storm combo was krark-clan shaman from the side, equipped with flayer husk. repeatable full board sweeps.
another thing that caught my eye is Hooting Mandrills. obviously worse against blue decks, but i think it can have potential to be run as a 2-of (instead of treasure cruise).
i know i would sweat horribly while playing raze with my opponent having counterspell mana up. arguably stone rain can be used instead.
i wouldn't know if the meta justifies the use of 3 sideboard slots for raze when for the familiar matchup i already side in 8 cards (4 pyroblasts and 4 krark-clan shaman).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
In my experience, affinity has a faster clock than tron, and that's usually enough. Given that razing a Karoo is an awesome feeling, you still find it worthy to use it against any deck that could counter it for an easy 2 for 1? I agree on the auto win on turn 1, but I look at the auto loss after a counter or the fact that isn't that relevant late game.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
If you are against Hexproof/bogles/Zoo you can just run serene heart which basically shuts them. Only problem is getting to 3 mana before they convoke kill your lands.
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I had an affinity player draw 30 cards by turn 6. Nuts when casting creatures will cost you no mana. This may be the deck to beat
Any testing of Sunchaser over Frogmite?
Just tried it out myself and will say it does slow you down.
Using that combo did you also get rid of blast?
Sacrificing artifacts must not be a drawback but something you want. With Disciple on the board, I often win just by feeding the Shaman a few lands. Let's imagine you have 2 Disciples and that's just game. Especially when playing 4 Blast (which is an auto-include for me).
Serene Heart and Tranquillity are what I personally use against GW Aura.
Sorry for the tags, writing this from my phone.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
4 Great Furnace
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Izzet Guildgate
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Simic Guildgate
4 Tree of Tales
4 Atog
4 Carapace Forger
2 Fangren Marauder
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
3 Terrarion
1 Flame Slash
4 Galvanic Blast
1 Fling
3 Ichor Wellspring
3 Perilous Research
4 Thoughtcast
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Flame Slash
3 Stone Rain
3 Hydroblast
2 Moment's Peace
1 Fangren Marauder
The idea behind this was to be a midrange deck with less mana issues. Despite having what I feel is a good amount of mana fixing, I find myself running into mana issues. However I am just trying out Terrarion, as Chromatic Sphere was previously in that spot, so I am hoping that will help.
I've just really began working on this list, so I have no matchup data or anything like that.
Odd card choices include Fangren Marauder and the guildgates. Guildgates are intended to fix mana issues, and Marauder is in against aggro decks and works well against RUGTron.
Sideboard is in need of help
The deck is fun, but I know needs work. Any comments, advice, and questions welcome. Thank you in advance
Criatures
4 Atog
4 Frogmite
4 Carapace Forger
4 Myr Enforcer
16 cards
Others spells
4 Chromatic Star
4 Thoughtcast
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Perilous Research
2 Fling
26 cards
Lands
4 Tree of Tales
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Ancient Den
18 cards
What cards i must take out if i want SB 4-8 cards?
Mind=Blown.
I've lost more games then I care to think about (mostly to stompy decks) b/c I did not know that piece of tech.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 ancient den
4 tree of tales
1 krark-clan shaman
3 perilious research
4 auriok sunchaser
4 carapace forger
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Springleaf Drum
2 Prophetic Prism
4 Flayer Husk
2 rancor
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Thoughtcast
2 gorilla shaman
2 Krark-Clan Shaman
2 ancient grudge
3 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
2 gnaw to the bone
i could use some input for sure. i fear the land count could be too low (partially compensated by the 4 flayer husk and the draw spells).
perilious research felt amazing, used as a combat trick, on a germ or on rancor.
about the side, the 2 gnaw to the bone are for mbc, which are the deck worst matchup even post side. what do you usually side in vs mbc?
The MBC matchup will always be pretty bad for you just by the nature of your two decks. Affinity is a slower, more midrange aggro deck and MBC can just pick decks like that apart with their spot removal. If you want to beat MBC consistently you either need to be a deck that can go under them/overwhelm them before they can gain the edge with their removal and 2-for-1 creatures or you need to play a deck with a superior long game. That's not to say Affinity can't beat MBC, however it is definitely in MBC's favor. I can't think of too many cards, but something you could try is Reaping the Graves which I've seen in some Affinity sideboards. Combining it with something cheap to boost storm (like a Chromatic Star) and getting back a couple of your Myr Enforcers or Carapace Forgers could be strong against a deck like MBC. You'd have to run Vault of Whispers and not play Auriok Sunchaser to support that though, but I'm not convinced playing white for Auriok Sunchaser is even worth it. Most of the top Affinity lists run the Atog-Fling package and Disciple of the Vault, ignoring white altogether. In any case, Gnaw to the Bone is not what you need against MBC. They're not trying to aggro you out and the lifegain isn't really that important outside of maybe saving you from Gray Merchant.
I'm also not huge on Rancor in this deck, I don't feel like it helps your weaknesses and it's not really something you need to help you win either.
reaping the graves is really interesting though, thanks.
i guess i could play the hoverguards instead of the sunchasers if i needed to splash black.
i thought rancor would be lackluster at first as well, but it's the cheapest trample effect available, the +2/+0 does wonders, and you actually hope it makes opponents go out of their way to get rid of it.
vs the mirror, it suddenly makes frogmites a threat. vs elves or goblins it gives them pressure.
i just wonder if a couple of dragon wings coupled with quicksilver behemoth could be better than sunchasers and rancor though.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 ancient den
4 tree of tales
3 atog
2 perilious research
3 auriok sunchaser
4 carapace forger
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Springleaf Drum
2 Prophetic Prism
4 Flayer Husk
2 rancor
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Thoughtcast
3 gorilla shaman
2 Krark-Clan Shaman
3 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
3 standard bearer
16 lands doesn't screw me more than the usual, mainly because of flayer husk + springleaf drum. i started using atogs and i see they're impressive, especially if i come around a rancor, or if the rancor is on an artifact creature or a flayer husk.
rancor functionally replicates fling (goes to the sb in the same matchups i would sideboard fling). the choice here is to play the attrition game instead of going all in with fling. it has the downside of not being removal in a pinch, but it can be used as perilous research sacrifice when i don't want to sacrifice a land or an artifact.
i can't be more in love with flayer husk by the way. chump blocker against elves/goblins, sac fodder for mbc, mana fixer with drums, sac fodder for perilous research, threat (and distraction for other threats in play) with a rancor. i wish there was another 1drop artifact creature that could do this much.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/pauper-daily-2014-10-20
-1 atog +1 treasure cruise
-1 profetic prism + 1 terrarion
i need to say that if you can't make mulligan decisions right this setup will make you lose more games than you can count, the initial hand is the most critical part of the game, and the early game after that.
random thoughts:
1 rancor seems like the right number. flex spot if you're against creatureless deck, no risk of drawing 2, great sinergy in baiting when cast on a frogmite or a germ.
1 treasure cruise seems the right number as well maindeck. it helps if you are ahead, is tremendously needed when you are behind, it's another must counter spell for blue decks and another headache for monoblack. i am trying one copy in side too to be used against mono b.
about prism and terrarion, i found out that terrarion might be the better choice, as i usually need the fixing just once, can cast it on turn one and if needed it can be sacrificed to draw, while the prism usually sat in my hand until late game, and usually made little impact.
the quicksilver behemoth choice is interesting - but i wouldn't go anywhere with it until i see at my lgs all delvers and all cloud of fairies gone. if i had a blueless meta i'd be going on it at once.
4 Disciple of the Vault
1 Krark-Clan Shaman
4 Atog
4 Carapace Forger
4 Frogmite
2 Somber Hoverguard
4 Myr Enforcer
Artifacts: 10
4 Chromatic Star
4 Springleaf Drum
2 Prophetic Prism
4 Thoughtcast
Instants: 6
4 Galvanic Blast
2 Fling
Lands: 17
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Doom Blade
1 Electrickery
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Hydroblast
2 Krark-Clan Shaman
3 Pyroblast
1 Serene Heart
1 Tranquility
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
so far my draw suite main deck is
4 thoughtcast
2 perilous research
1 treasure cruise
i've been tempted to let go of the perilous research, but the fizzle on corrupt when against mono black is really game-changing.
another strategy that saved my butt against familiar storm combo was krark-clan shaman from the side, equipped with flayer husk. repeatable full board sweeps.
another thing that caught my eye is Hooting Mandrills. obviously worse against blue decks, but i think it can have potential to be run as a 2-of (instead of treasure cruise).
i wouldn't know if the meta justifies the use of 3 sideboard slots for raze when for the familiar matchup i already side in 8 cards (4 pyroblasts and 4 krark-clan shaman).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So it's good against anything not blue.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.