T prevent Frontier from becoming near-modern as time goes on I agree that it should rotate like the old extended format. The mistake with the creation of Modern was thinking it would save people money by never forcing them to sell off and replace cards. Given that the cardpool has grown so huge we can see the format being much closer to Legacy than was ever intended.
If Frontier survives for ten years it will be where Modern is now.
T prevent Frontier from becoming near-modern as time goes on I agree that it should rotate like the old extended format. The mistake with the creation of Modern was thinking it would save people money by never forcing them to sell off and replace cards. Given that the cardpool has grown so huge we can see the format being much closer to Legacy than was ever intended.
If Frontier survives for ten years it will be where Modern is now.
The trouble is that nothing can save any format from moderns fate except for wizards themselves. It's how they print the cards and their commitment to retaining secondary market values on cards that is causing all the problems in modern finance. This coupled with how they are very slow on reacting to secondary market pressure just makes things all the worse for players who are trying to play in a non-rotating format.
My hope is that moving forward with the larger print runs and lottery cards the prices will be easier to keep stable, but if they aren't willing to print and cut prices down on staple cards, allowing them to slowly climb like they have in modern even in the new non-rotating format, then they might as well not have a non-rotating format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The trouble is that nothing can save any format from moderns fate except for wizards themselves.
Rotating extended certainly helps. Something along the timeframe of 6-7 years and to most casual players who don't stay in the hobby that long will basically experience an eternal format. Isn't allowing new and casual players a format that doesn't force them to rebuy every rotation the goal? By the time Timmy stops playing the Kaladesh and Amonkhet cards he got for Christmas would still be in the extended rotation. The downside is that people cringe and recoil at any mention of a rotation without seeing that to the players most clamoring for a cheaper eternal format that 6 or 7 years is virtually eternal in the market it would be intended for.
Additionally, when core sets kept most of their cards the same it provided an eternal stream of legal reprnts for the rotating formats anyway. Why not an eternal core set then? (ahem, money)
I may not post much but I have been a Magic player for a very, very long time. In the early days of Type 1, Type 2, and Type 1.5 the serious players played Type 2 (standard), the serious players with money to burn played Type 1, and casual magic from beginners to serious playgroups found a happy home in 1.5 using their Revised/4th/5th Edition cards with a mix of expansions blended in.
I think this is an irrelevant argument. Frontier seemed to make sense based on how Modern was created - starting the format based on new card faces, instead of the changes of the core set. If wizards made the modern format based on the changes of the core set, modern legal cards would start from M10 on up. The annoying part with modern is how close the staples between Modern and Legacy.
Frontier is so far apart from modern that is gives players reason to play cards that might not be played. For example, I really doubt the new scar-mage will see any legacy/modern play... but I see that guy being a staple in a mono red frontier deck.
I don't see the format being dead. I do think Frontier might have a stronger kitchen table appeal because the format is much slower and cheaper compared to modern/legacy. Also frontier is an eternal format, so kitchen table players don't see the decks having a limited lifespan. I've been playing magic since 1996 and I never like standard because the deck becomes obsolete in a few months, and I never liked extended because those decks were never permanent. You knew from the back of your mind that the cards were doomed to be rotated out. Also the deck size is 60 cards minimum; there are players that just don't like EDH because they don't like shuffling 100 cards decks.
So Frontier is going to be a long lasting format, at last long lasting for 10 years until players needed to start a newer eternal format. But by then, frontier will become modern, modern will be played like legacy and legacy will be played like Vintage.
So from my personal opinion, Frontier sounds like a good concept. But if we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.
Just as Modern was a response to Extended, Frontier is a response to Modern. including but not limited to, the stale meta-game, the prices to play, and other issues. So if we want to have a new format, let prepare it as something we want to keep and not discard years later. Things to keep in mind as we try to tweek this format;
-We do want to keep things from stale.
-We dont want to compete with modern or standard. (lets keep this as its own standalone)
-Pricing
-Viability/Longevity
If there are other things we should keep in mind let me know. or comment on it. This is a work in progress. So to start these are the implementations i would add;
-a rotation:
We want to keep the format from becoming so stale it turns into modern. On the same note, we do not want to rotate every year a whole years worth of cards. we want to have a format that is almost eternal yet keeps it somewhat changing. So my idea would be to create a rotation that happens every two years, or even on the year. but instead, rotate only one block. this way come October we have 4 new sets to the format, but we only rotate out one block. so come this october, with the new set, Dragons & Fate would rotate but we would keep Khans and Origins. then next october, Khans & Origins rotate, while we just addes 4 sets to the format.
I think this also answers some of the concerns about some cards becoming to staple in the format. Of course this is a work in progress and changes and suggestions should be made.
- Bans
Fetches & TC/DTT seem to be the biggest topics of discussion on this issues. But just as with any format, the bans come from the metagame. not on a single cards strength. So i dont think fetches are too strong to ban, they are accessible to every deck, they arent making any one particular deck too strong. they allow all player to build mana bases as they see fit. There imo isnt an over whelming flood of Tc/DTT to see enough of a ban hammer. But again, bans happen all the time even in eternal formats. If top 8 in this format become decks with 4 Tc & 4 Dtt then i can see a reason to ban.
-Not competing with modern or standard:
So wizards has this thing were they really want to push standard, and hard. so this next piece of structure to the format for me is just one for flavor and two for a way to keep things interesting. As well as not to step on standards toes while maintaining a format that is still unique. But in a way to gear players to play standard and not just jump into frontier with every new set, (now i know this is going to sound pretty ridiculous, but just think about it) frontier will not have sets legal on their release date.
instead, with the release of a new set, the set prior to it becomes legal. obviously this means we would have to wait one set with no set being added to the format. So players dont automatically take the new set and jump into frontier, and it keeps frontier a bit unique in that sense.
I know it sounds kinda funky, but with these changes or implementations, i can see frontier being its own format aside from modern and standard. We become a truly unique format in between both, not stealing the spot light away from modern by having a (albeit) small rotation, and keeping away from standard by keeping the release of new sets into this format until the following set.
Well people, tell me your opinions on my idea/changes. If you think its viable, would they help or hurt, would you be willing to try it out? or is this just a bad plan all together?
In a perfect world for me Frontier would stay a non-rotating format that begins with M15 as it is now. A more slowly rotating format doesn't sound appealing to me as I prefer idea of getting excited about little upgrades here and there to the decks I already have built. Standard is enough for me as far as rotating formats go.
A 'rotation' to me would be to create another new format in another 6 years or so while keeping the other non-rotating formats intact.
Legacy - starts in 1993
Modern - 2003
Frontier - 2014
"Outback" - 2023
What I think will happen is Frontier will be effectively replaced and renamed by Wizards in a couple years and start with Origins. I'll miss my fetchland / Khans build but inevitably will move on and enjoy that format too.
In the meantime I'll push/play this format because I enjoy it.
If wizards will pick it up still seems to be up in the air. IMO we could use a rotating format, one that does rotate as fast as standard does, while still giving us the feel of a somewhat eternal format. I think it will help things from getting to stale. or even create a meta of just specific decks.
In a perfect world for me Frontier would stay a non-rotating format that begins with M15 as it is now. A more slowly rotating format doesn't sound appealing to me as I prefer idea of getting excited about little upgrades here and there to the decks I already have built. Standard is enough for me as far as rotating formats go.
A 'rotation' to me would be to create another new format in another 6 years or so while keeping the other non-rotating formats intact.
Legacy - starts in 1993
Modern - 2003
Frontier - 2014
"Outback" - 2023
What I think will happen is Frontier will be effectively replaced and renamed by Wizards in a couple years and start with Origins. I'll miss my fetchland / Khans build but inevitably will move on and enjoy that format too.
In the meantime I'll push/play this format because I enjoy it.
I do like the title 'outback'
Legacy started in 2004. The original format was called type 1.5 and it was a different animal.
I do agree with the non rotating format. I love the idea to build my deck up. I hate the idea of worrying that my deck is going to be obsolete.
So… Does frontier still have a lively following in the player community? I was contemplating building a deck, and maybe investing in some of the staples, but I've been hearing less about it lately...
I play it offline casually with friends. It's a good way to limit cards to those that people have access to within the last few years as it is becoming increasingly uncommon to run across new players that have the requisite mana-base and other historic cards like arcbound ravager.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm really tempted to jump into the format now, what's the best way to start and can someone recommend me a reasonable deck? I tend to play UBx control/tempo decks but I'm open to anything
I'm really tempted to jump into the format now, what's the best way to start and can someone recommend me a reasonable deck? I tend to play UBx control/tempo decks but I'm open to anything
Try to find out first if there are Frontier tournaments somewhere around you. Where I am, the format existed for a month or so, before players simply went back to Modern.
Frontier was a format in response to how bad Modern was in 2016: for old players, Infect and Dredge had consistant turn 3 kills, even through hate, which made the format terrible for them, while new players were simply priced out of Modern due to the prices of many staples, especially the Enemy fetchlands. Fatal Push, bannings and Modern Masters 2017 fixed most of Modern's problems. Now that the format is healthy and relatively accessible, there is very little interest in Frontier (at least, in my own experience, at my LGS).
I'm really tempted to jump into the format now, what's the best way to start and can someone recommend me a reasonable deck? I tend to play UBx control/tempo decks but I'm open to anything
Try to find out first if there are Frontier tournaments somewhere around you. Where I am, the format existed for a month or so, before players simply went back to Modern.
Frontier was a format in response to how bad Modern was in 2016: for old players, Infect and Dredge had consistant turn 3 kills, even through hate, which made the format terrible for them, while new players were simply priced out of Modern due to the prices of many staples, especially the Enemy fetchlands. Fatal Push, bannings and Modern Masters 2017 fixed most of Modern's problems. Now that the format is healthy and relatively accessible, there is very little interest in Frontier (at least, in my own experience, at my LGS).
The nail in the coffin for frontier is if they reprint the enemy fetch lands in another upcoming set that has been announced. If that happens the prices should come down considerably.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm really tempted to jump into the format now, what's the best way to start and can someone recommend me a reasonable deck? I tend to play UBx control/tempo decks but I'm open to anything
Try to find out first if there are Frontier tournaments somewhere around you. Where I am, the format existed for a month or so, before players simply went back to Modern.
Frontier was a format in response to how bad Modern was in 2016: for old players, Infect and Dredge had consistant turn 3 kills, even through hate, which made the format terrible for them, while new players were simply priced out of Modern due to the prices of many staples, especially the Enemy fetchlands. Fatal Push, bannings and Modern Masters 2017 fixed most of Modern's problems. Now that the format is healthy and relatively accessible, there is very little interest in Frontier (at least, in my own experience, at my LGS).
The nail in the coffin for frontier is if they reprint the enemy fetch lands in another upcoming set that has been announced. If that happens the prices should come down considerably.
I think there is still room for Frontier. They should just ax Legacy and get it over with. Modern isn't going anywhere, and WotC just announced almost half of the future GP's will be Modern and there will be a modern PT. I don't think the prices of Modern are going to drop enough to make the price difference between Frontier and Modern small enough to kill off Frontier. Right now most tier 1 Modern Decks are $1000+, Tier 1 Frontier are still under $300. There's no way Modern decks ever get that cheap.
Yeah I'm not saying that modern would drop to frontiers level of cost, just that if the costs get closer between the two it starts putting frontier in a difficult position, as it competes with another popular format as well: That being Pauper and Commander. I think that frontier's primary advantage is being in a more complete environment with rares and mythics from the more recent sets, thus allowing players to get away from cards like Blood Moon, Choke, etc, that can be found in modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think there is still room for Frontier. They should just ax Legacy and get it over with. Modern isn't going anywhere, and WotC just announced almost half of the future GP's will be Modern and there will be a modern PT. I don't think the prices of Modern are going to drop enough to make the price difference between Frontier and Modern small enough to kill off Frontier. Right now most tier 1 Modern Decks are $1000+, Tier 1 Frontier are still under $300. There's no way Modern decks ever get that cheap.
You get the point. Now its arguable if those are all Tier 1, but go ahead and drop The 2 cheapest, and the 2 most expensive (as they are not Tier 1 either) and you are still under a grand.
Modern is cheaper than people like to admit, especially if they are on the Standard rotation.
EDIT: As colt notes, the primary reason to play Frontier imo, is to dodge cards and mechanics which a person has no desire to play against.
Locally, it died. I tried, but its either Modern, or EDH.
Frontier isn't huge in paper right now, but there are several online leagues that are active: the Untap Open League's 5th season starts tomorrow, and the MTGFrontier Discord hosts leagues over both Cockatrice and XMage. A MTGO - based league is also starting, check out MTGOLeagues.com for more info.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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If Frontier survives for ten years it will be where Modern is now.
The trouble is that nothing can save any format from moderns fate except for wizards themselves. It's how they print the cards and their commitment to retaining secondary market values on cards that is causing all the problems in modern finance. This coupled with how they are very slow on reacting to secondary market pressure just makes things all the worse for players who are trying to play in a non-rotating format.
My hope is that moving forward with the larger print runs and lottery cards the prices will be easier to keep stable, but if they aren't willing to print and cut prices down on staple cards, allowing them to slowly climb like they have in modern even in the new non-rotating format, then they might as well not have a non-rotating format.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Rotating extended certainly helps. Something along the timeframe of 6-7 years and to most casual players who don't stay in the hobby that long will basically experience an eternal format. Isn't allowing new and casual players a format that doesn't force them to rebuy every rotation the goal? By the time Timmy stops playing the Kaladesh and Amonkhet cards he got for Christmas would still be in the extended rotation. The downside is that people cringe and recoil at any mention of a rotation without seeing that to the players most clamoring for a cheaper eternal format that 6 or 7 years is virtually eternal in the market it would be intended for.
Additionally, when core sets kept most of their cards the same it provided an eternal stream of legal reprnts for the rotating formats anyway. Why not an eternal core set then? (ahem, money)
I may not post much but I have been a Magic player for a very, very long time. In the early days of Type 1, Type 2, and Type 1.5 the serious players played Type 2 (standard), the serious players with money to burn played Type 1, and casual magic from beginners to serious playgroups found a happy home in 1.5 using their Revised/4th/5th Edition cards with a mix of expansions blended in.
I think this is an irrelevant argument. Frontier seemed to make sense based on how Modern was created - starting the format based on new card faces, instead of the changes of the core set. If wizards made the modern format based on the changes of the core set, modern legal cards would start from M10 on up. The annoying part with modern is how close the staples between Modern and Legacy.
Frontier is so far apart from modern that is gives players reason to play cards that might not be played. For example, I really doubt the new scar-mage will see any legacy/modern play... but I see that guy being a staple in a mono red frontier deck.
I don't see the format being dead. I do think Frontier might have a stronger kitchen table appeal because the format is much slower and cheaper compared to modern/legacy. Also frontier is an eternal format, so kitchen table players don't see the decks having a limited lifespan. I've been playing magic since 1996 and I never like standard because the deck becomes obsolete in a few months, and I never liked extended because those decks were never permanent. You knew from the back of your mind that the cards were doomed to be rotated out. Also the deck size is 60 cards minimum; there are players that just don't like EDH because they don't like shuffling 100 cards decks.
So Frontier is going to be a long lasting format, at last long lasting for 10 years until players needed to start a newer eternal format. But by then, frontier will become modern, modern will be played like legacy and legacy will be played like Vintage.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Just as Modern was a response to Extended, Frontier is a response to Modern. including but not limited to, the stale meta-game, the prices to play, and other issues. So if we want to have a new format, let prepare it as something we want to keep and not discard years later. Things to keep in mind as we try to tweek this format;
-We do want to keep things from stale.
-We dont want to compete with modern or standard. (lets keep this as its own standalone)
-Pricing
-Viability/Longevity
If there are other things we should keep in mind let me know. or comment on it. This is a work in progress. So to start these are the implementations i would add;
-a rotation:
We want to keep the format from becoming so stale it turns into modern. On the same note, we do not want to rotate every year a whole years worth of cards. we want to have a format that is almost eternal yet keeps it somewhat changing. So my idea would be to create a rotation that happens every two years, or even on the year. but instead, rotate only one block. this way come October we have 4 new sets to the format, but we only rotate out one block. so come this october, with the new set, Dragons & Fate would rotate but we would keep Khans and Origins. then next october, Khans & Origins rotate, while we just addes 4 sets to the format.
I think this also answers some of the concerns about some cards becoming to staple in the format. Of course this is a work in progress and changes and suggestions should be made.
- Bans
Fetches & TC/DTT seem to be the biggest topics of discussion on this issues. But just as with any format, the bans come from the metagame. not on a single cards strength. So i dont think fetches are too strong to ban, they are accessible to every deck, they arent making any one particular deck too strong. they allow all player to build mana bases as they see fit. There imo isnt an over whelming flood of Tc/DTT to see enough of a ban hammer. But again, bans happen all the time even in eternal formats. If top 8 in this format become decks with 4 Tc & 4 Dtt then i can see a reason to ban.
-Not competing with modern or standard:
So wizards has this thing were they really want to push standard, and hard. so this next piece of structure to the format for me is just one for flavor and two for a way to keep things interesting. As well as not to step on standards toes while maintaining a format that is still unique. But in a way to gear players to play standard and not just jump into frontier with every new set, (now i know this is going to sound pretty ridiculous, but just think about it) frontier will not have sets legal on their release date.
instead, with the release of a new set, the set prior to it becomes legal. obviously this means we would have to wait one set with no set being added to the format. So players dont automatically take the new set and jump into frontier, and it keeps frontier a bit unique in that sense.
I know it sounds kinda funky, but with these changes or implementations, i can see frontier being its own format aside from modern and standard. We become a truly unique format in between both, not stealing the spot light away from modern by having a (albeit) small rotation, and keeping away from standard by keeping the release of new sets into this format until the following set.
Well people, tell me your opinions on my idea/changes. If you think its viable, would they help or hurt, would you be willing to try it out? or is this just a bad plan all together?
A 'rotation' to me would be to create another new format in another 6 years or so while keeping the other non-rotating formats intact.
Legacy - starts in 1993
Modern - 2003
Frontier - 2014
"Outback" - 2023
What I think will happen is Frontier will be effectively replaced and renamed by Wizards in a couple years and start with Origins. I'll miss my fetchland / Khans build but inevitably will move on and enjoy that format too.
In the meantime I'll push/play this format because I enjoy it.
I do like the title 'outback'
Legacy started in 2004. The original format was called type 1.5 and it was a different animal.
I do agree with the non rotating format. I love the idea to build my deck up. I hate the idea of worrying that my deck is going to be obsolete.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
DTT and TC are still debatable as things that could need a ban if they turn too degenerate but from the sound of things we're not quite there yet?
Not only Aven Mindcensor but also Nimble Obstructionist.
I'll try out Frontier but I can't say I'm too excited or optimistic about the format.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Try to find out first if there are Frontier tournaments somewhere around you. Where I am, the format existed for a month or so, before players simply went back to Modern.
Frontier was a format in response to how bad Modern was in 2016: for old players, Infect and Dredge had consistant turn 3 kills, even through hate, which made the format terrible for them, while new players were simply priced out of Modern due to the prices of many staples, especially the Enemy fetchlands. Fatal Push, bannings and Modern Masters 2017 fixed most of Modern's problems. Now that the format is healthy and relatively accessible, there is very little interest in Frontier (at least, in my own experience, at my LGS).
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
The nail in the coffin for frontier is if they reprint the enemy fetch lands in another upcoming set that has been announced. If that happens the prices should come down considerably.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think there is still room for Frontier. They should just ax Legacy and get it over with. Modern isn't going anywhere, and WotC just announced almost half of the future GP's will be Modern and there will be a modern PT. I don't think the prices of Modern are going to drop enough to make the price difference between Frontier and Modern small enough to kill off Frontier. Right now most tier 1 Modern Decks are $1000+, Tier 1 Frontier are still under $300. There's no way Modern decks ever get that cheap.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is false.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper
For those who dont click links.
Affinity - 700
GDS - 1000
Titanshift - 650
Eldrazi Tron - 800
Burn - 600
UW Control - 550
Storm - 500
JDS - 1300 - lol!
Junk - 1400 - lol!
You get the point. Now its arguable if those are all Tier 1, but go ahead and drop The 2 cheapest, and the 2 most expensive (as they are not Tier 1 either) and you are still under a grand.
Modern is cheaper than people like to admit, especially if they are on the Standard rotation.
EDIT: As colt notes, the primary reason to play Frontier imo, is to dodge cards and mechanics which a person has no desire to play against.
Locally, it died. I tried, but its either Modern, or EDH.
Spirits