Well banning is normal in any MTG format. It's a necessity. Even without Khans block, that format may necessitate banning of other cards. Instead of removing the entire pool of KTK block which would be completely fine overall without fetches, just remove the fetches.
I'm saying just remove the fetches because the metagame from the last tournaments hosted by Japanese vendors like Hareruya were too full of 4-c decks. I don't think we should get that easy mana for a new format. There is almost no card that punish playing 3 or 4 colors and there is little incentive for playing less than 3 colors as well.
Well banning is normal in any MTG format. It's a necessity. Even without Khans block, that format may necessitate banning of other cards. Instead of removing the entire pool of KTK block which would be completely fine overall without fetches, just remove the fetches.
I'm saying just remove the fetches because the metagame from the last tournaments hosted by Japanese vendors like Hareruya were too full of 4-c decks. I don't think we should get that easy mana for a new format. There is almost no card that punish playing 3 or 4 colors and there is little incentive for playing less than 3 colors as well.
Seriously? I haven't been following the tournaments over there and am a little surprised that they could go 4 color reliably. I'm starting to think they should have printed the Mirage fetchlands instead of the Onslaught ones. I missed the boat on the original Kahns block price debacle due to the tri-color decks of the time and I'd hate to see the same thing happen in Frontier. Honestly, I'm not sure which is the greater evil: Printing dual lands with basic land types or printing fetchlands that don't specify basic lands.
In either case, time to go buy up all the frontier legal lands. I think the fast lands from Kaladesh, enemy pain lands from origins, and the BFZ duals are the safest bet. SoI lands are a little too inconsistent.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The format needs time to get a solid card pool under it before this becomes a thing. Right now you'd have rally, some form of busted dredge/delve monstrosity, an incredibly hard to kill GB midrange build (traversing into rhinos? Ew), maybe tutelage mill, maybe control, probably some goblin/battlerage thing (rabblemaster, foundry street, and piledriver all love them some battlerage), maybe an aetherworks marvel deck? Not sure if GW tokens or hardened scales has what it needs to compete.
The pool just isn't big enough and you will get just better tuned versions of today's standard stuff. In 5ish years I think this is something they could pursue.
I think a big issue here though is creating and pushing a new format kind of undermines consumer confidence for the secondary market. What I mean is that if I spend 2-4 years building a modern deck because I don't have a great deal of disposable income and they roll out a completely new format...why would I play it or continue trying to play the existing format. People are attracted to modern partly because it doesn't rotate. It's a safe haven for the standard decks of yesteryear that offers them the ability for further tuning. Personal opinion here: I love playing elves...and the elves in frontier would be atrocious, which makes me incredibly sad.
If it were a thing, fetches would be fine. You would maybe see a good deal of allied color decks due to the fetch/dual pool being both allied. It would offer the best fixing. the command cycle just further compounds the issue.
That being said...I've ordered my playset of rally ;). Better to be prepared for $2 USD than not.
Just out of curiosity why is RtR/M14/Theros left out to dry? It's simply because they lack the holo foil thing on the bottom?
I believe that's the reason, easiest to set the cards in the format apart I guess
as for people saying modern is dead, I don't think it is yet. Modern is probably the most popular format at events I've seen. I've heard Face to face Games in Toronto stopped running standard events because every other format fires more
The problem with frontier is that the first block you start out with contains the busted delve cards which will likely need bans down the road.
Much like how modern starts out with mirrodin and all of the problems that came with
Now I thought that Khans of Tarkir was a great set for standard, but the larger the cardpool becomes the more busted Treasure Cruise and co. become as well
Modern is close to being fantastic, with a few tweaks, so I see no need for something like frontier to exist
The problem with frontier is that the first block you start out with contains the busted delve cards which will likely need bans down the road.
Much like how modern starts out with mirrodin and all of the problems that came with
Now I thought that Khans of Tarkir was a great set for standard, but the larger the cardpool becomes the more busted Treasure Cruise and co. become as well
Modern is close to being fantastic, with a few tweaks, so I see no need for something like frontier to exist
Modern is such a clustered political hot spot of vying factions and personal motivations that the only option left is to scrap it entirely or leave it be. At least with Frontier we can start with a clean slate and clean up whatever mess the starting block may create.
The second wizards actually steps in and tries to clean up modern in any significant way, we'll see some players decrying the death of magic while others will be running off because their favorite T1-T2 deck just got dumped on and they can't trade out of it without taking a big loss all thanks to how spiky the modern marketing meta-game is. That isn't going into the LGS store situation, but gods forbid anyone putting focus on the fact that the only reason any LGS would shutter down because of a modern shake up is poor investment choices.
The solution to the entire problem of Modern and an eternal card pool is to just follow a simple rule: Be selective on what you let into the card pool! If Wizards didn't just dump every last card and mechanic from standard into the eternal card pool we'd never have broken combos or other issues to begin with.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
[quote from="Billiondegree »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/757826-post-modern-frontier-format?comment=179"]The solution to the entire problem of Modern and an eternal card pool is to just follow a simple rule: Be selective on what you let into the card pool! If Wizards didn't just dump every last card and mechanic from standard into the eternal card pool we'd never have broken combos or other issues to begin with.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that formats should just be a random list of cards that are legal (ie, "these 100 cards from this block, these 94 cards from this block, this one random card from a Commander deck, these 13 cards from this block and so on)? Or that the banned list for formats should be updated more often, and that more cards should be on those lists?
</blockquote>
Well, it's probably a subject for another thread, but the main issues modern runs into is that they add the entirety of a standard block to the format each time a new set comes out. In general, the QA testers have a hard enough time dealing with standard and often miss a few broken or really powerful synergies when matching the newest set to the oldest one that is still standard legal. In the case of modern, we got an entire history going all the way back to Mirrodin to deal with. What WoTC should be doing is saying "Hey, these 10 cards in this set are legal in modern" and then make the rest casual / commander staples. Then print those cards in supplementary products to make sure there are enough to go around.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think this is a format that will inevitably be a thing at some point, and I honestly think that it even looks like WotC is setting it up deliberately with that new card frame, the BFZ duals and so on. I think they are considering a new eternal format when designing new cards now. However, it is way too early now. The format is 2 core sets and 3.5 blocks, which is to little to set it apart enough from Standard. As it stands, it would threaten Standard if launched as an officially sanctioned format, and that`s the last thing they want. It is also likely to be dominated by updated versions of the best Standard decks in the past few formats. Think 5-6 years down the line and we`ll talk.
For me, the first priority should be having the full cycle of BFZ duals. The mana is super awkward in that some color combinations are a lot more viable than others. My first attempt at brewing a deck was Temur (UR splash G) Prowess with Treasure Cruise. Guess what? I found that a fast fetchland oriented mana base in Temur colors is not doable because we don`t have UG and UR duals. You have to either only be able to fetch G with your R fetches, or play Flooded Strand and fetch G in Canopy Vista, which means that you can`t fetch R with your U fetches. The other options is to use UR/UG fastlands and painlands, and then you can`t use the duals because they never enter untapped, which means that you only fetch basics with your fetchlands to fill the graveyard... and without Scalding Tarn, you pretty much don`t ever color fix with your fetches, only for RG. So fetchlands are 1 life, shuffle, get a basic and fill the yard, which feels very unrewarding. Part of the fun with brewing in a small and/or unsolved format is working around the restrictions in the card pool, but this was just straight up annoying. So the solution is to go UR with UB/RB duals and fetches, so you can fetch your other color via the black color that you`re not going to use, which is pretty stupid if you ask me. Shards and allied pairings, on the other hand, are smooth as milk with fetches and BFZ duals, which means that shards and alled color pairings have better access to the delve cards than enemy colors and wedges, which is just terrible balancing and a completely unnecessary restriction.
So to sum it up, I love the idea, but it`s not there yet in my opinion, people are being to impatient. I`ll give this format a second look when we have all ten duals and the format has evolved beyond Standard`s Greatest Hits Album 2014-2016, and/or when people are actually playing it actively in my area. In the meantime, I`m keeping my Rhinos and my Jaces for later.
if that's all you gathered, I think you read my post very selectively. What I want is a land selection that doesn't punish me for trying to play Temur while rewarding my opponent for playing Grixis.
I definitely see your point about banning the fetchlands. A lower price point, less shuffling and a nerf on delve cards sounds good. On the other hand, I like fetchlands. I like playing with them, simple as that. So on a purely subjective level, I have to disagree. I also think that they are well balanced without shocklands and ABUR duals. Shocklands are overpowered. Fetching for BFZ duals has a real cost, both in playing and building. If you want them to enter untapped most of the time, you need to be okay with playing/fetching your first two or two out of first three lands as basics. That dissuades you from playing other non-basics, such as manlands and fastlands, and it encourages you to play XY(z), where Z is a color you don't need until your third turn, and very greedy decks might be better off playing fastlands and painlands unless they are trying to delve or need the shuffle. So I think they are just fine when it comes to power level. As for price, well... Yeah. Fetches are expensive because they are shared between formats. Other than that, whatever's a staple in a popular format gets expensive. Ban fetchlands and wait a few years, and we'll see $30 fastlands. Not as expensive as fetches, but still, dtuff spikes from popularity. I don't even want to imagine where the near un-reprintable flip Jace might end up.
if that's all you gathered, I think you read my post very selectively. What I want is a land selection that doesn't punish me for trying to play Temur while rewarding my opponent for playing Grixis.
I definitely see your point about banning the fetchlands. A lower price point, less shuffling and a nerf on delve cards sounds good. On the other hand, I like fetchlands. I like playing with them, simple as that. So on a purely subjective level, I have to disagree. I also think that they are well balanced without shocklands and ABUR duals. Shocklands are overpowered. Fetching for BFZ duals has a real cost, both in playing and building. If you want them to enter untapped most of the time, you need to be okay with playing/fetching your first two or two out of first three lands as basics. That dissuades you from playing other non-basics, such as manlands and fastlands, and it encourages you to play XY(z), where Z is a color you don't need until your third turn, and very greedy decks might be better off playing fastlands and painlands unless they are trying to delve or need the shuffle. So I think they are just fine when it comes to power level. As for price, well... Yeah. Fetches are expensive because they are shared between formats. Other than that, whatever's a staple in a popular format gets expensive. Ban fetchlands and wait a few years, and we'll see $30 fastlands. Not as expensive as fetches, but still, dtuff spikes from popularity. I don't even want to imagine where the near un-reprintable flip Jace might end up.
I agree with you on the fetches not being OP with the lack of shocks. The main issue with modern is the combination of shocks + fetches just gives way too much power to fix mana early in the game. With BFZ duals the player has to have at least two basics to play that dual untapped, and that means with a fetch land the soonest someone could fetch a dual untapped is turn 3. That's assuming the player hasn't already had to use the fetch to get something turn 1 or turn 2.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If fetches are "worse" than shocks - the fetches would naturally (khan ones) become lower priced than the shock lands.
That's not true, because Fetches are played in older formats too, shocks aren't. Ban all fetchable nonbasics and fetchea become really bad. On their own they leave you with only 1 color for the rest of the game, thus makes shocks better on their own (unless you really need shuffle effects, landfall triggers, deck thinning though is proved to be neglible).
I think we just need Battle lands enemy cycle tbh to balance different tri-colors. But mana could be too good, so I could see fetch ban being good.
Yeah, do not use price to determine how good a card is compared to another. That price is a metric of how much a card is played in combination with rarity.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If fetches are "worse" than shocks - the fetches would naturally (khan ones) become lower priced than the shock lands.
Since this isn't the case -by far- it shows that fetches, on their own, are stronger than shocks - on their own. Allowing fetches would make any shocklands and the like impossible. Fetches provide all kinds of utility (self damage, shuffling the deck, filling the graveyard), while maybe not overpowered right now the combination of these effects would but severe strains on future potentially strong cards.
You also didn't tackle my main point, you just ignored it and moved on:
If the purpose of frontier format is to provide a lower entry barrier than modern. Why would you start such a format with one of the largest money-sinks already in modern? Even if this format is condoned, modern will still exist. - as such the fetch price will rise, and will in a year or 3 from now already be at the $50 dollar bracket; placing the format at the same position as modern is now. Do you want a new eternal format has only a "best used before" of 5 years?
Price, while certainly the greatest barrier to a non-rotating format that is sanctioned in paper (poor poor Pauper, I have so many of your decks and no one plays it in brick and mortar stores, you are too good for this real world apparently) is not the issue I want solved. It just currently parallels the idea of a post modern/frontier format because of enormous print runs and a lack of viability in the non-rotating formats of Legacy or Modern. This new format solves the issue of current design philosophy of WotC in regards to Magic. You don't get lightning bolt, path to exile, blood moon, damnation, inquisition of kozilek, gitaxian probe, cantrips, tron lands, etc. now. Instead we have cards that are only worth anything in Standard, there is no incentive to keep Standard cards unless you make them competitive in a format with similar power level/design philosophy.
You open a box of Standard cards and all its value is tied to a rotating format. Trying to trade them for cards in a non-rotating format is a joke unless someone wants to jump into Standard. Why would they if it holds no value and depreciates so quickly? For fun? How fun is the format now that the norm is to copy the best two or three decks and play against them over and over again? That might just be my current Standard fatigue talking...
Every Magic player is concerned about price but its a hobby for people that have disposable income. Always. I can't pay for Modern decks unless I save and if I keep playing Standard I keep losing money (while its not fun, I concede that paying for fun is at least part of the value while Standard is enjoyable). Simply put, I want my Standard cards to be worth something outside Standard, by either making them Modern playable or Post-modern/Frontier playable. The 'collectible' in CCG is a farce when its worthless. WotC make my Standard cards Modern level power and say too bad to limited players! Actually, tell me you'll create a second reserve list for Standard cards and I'll be happy (this is a joke).
Considering we had fun things like Jeskai Black and Mardu Green for quite a bit in Standard, I don't think fetches would be ok to leave in there without speeding up the format or some kind of hate card, e.g. Blood Moon.
While yes, Shocklands are even better, with how relatively slow Standard was, and Frontier might be as well, compared to other Eternal formats, as well as more and more dual lands being printed, I don't think fetches can be left in the format as it is.
When the mana is that good, why play anything less than 3-4 colours?
And fetches mean a ton more shuffling during each game, something that not every Standard player might want to relive so soon again.
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Tired of losing to natural Tron or getting turn 2'd by Infect?
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
Yeah, do not use price to determine how good a card is compared to another. That price is a metric of how much a card is played in combination with rarity.
Also, strictly IMO, I hate when any format uses price as a metric for bans *cough*COMMANDED*cough*, versus banning on whether or not it is format warping, broken, etc.
Yeah, do not use price to determine how good a card is compared to another. That price is a metric of how much a card is played in combination with rarity.
Also, strictly IMO, I hate when any format uses price as a metric for bans *cough*COMMANDED*cough*, versus banning on whether or not it is format warping, broken, etc.
We could go all day on the issues of the secondary market when it comes to MTG. The main problem is that WoTC is just really disorganized and behind on listening to what players want, let alone shop owners. The Pokemon TCG is doing everything right in my mind and is getting even more popular thanks to the release of Sun and Moon. However, the biggest win for Pokemon is the support that game gives to stores. Since the packages break down into more value than the wholesale price, small shops can stay afloat breaking these packages down to their components. Wizards for some reason is just like "heck no, we want all the monies" and forces artificially high prices on the secondary market by not giving enough discounts to retail on whole sale. Frontier format isn't going to solve this problem: only wizards can solve it by being more aggressive on products and letting retail outlets buy at discount price so they can make more money and offer better prices on singles like mythics and useful rares.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Just as a side note; frontier will still have all the fetches eventually. In fact, if they reprint enemy fetches we may be entering another tri color standard like Kahns block. It's just we get the opportunity to have really old cards filtered out of the format like blood moon and lightning bolt.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Where does someone go to discuss actually playing and building decks in the format? I found this thread via Google but it seems much more oriented toward the format's prospects and comparisons to Modern instead of toward playing and deckbuilding.
Where does someone go to discuss actually playing and building decks in the format? I found this thread via Google but it seems much more oriented toward the format's prospects and comparisons to Modern instead of toward playing and deckbuilding.
We need to make one in the homebrew and variant forum. I have been intending to do so, but I haven't yet because I have not had the time to make a list of cards for the format. I feel that is important as there is no way to search gatherer for format cards yet.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy: R Burn CG-Post
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I'm saying just remove the fetches because the metagame from the last tournaments hosted by Japanese vendors like Hareruya were too full of 4-c decks. I don't think we should get that easy mana for a new format. There is almost no card that punish playing 3 or 4 colors and there is little incentive for playing less than 3 colors as well.
Seriously? I haven't been following the tournaments over there and am a little surprised that they could go 4 color reliably. I'm starting to think they should have printed the Mirage fetchlands instead of the Onslaught ones. I missed the boat on the original Kahns block price debacle due to the tri-color decks of the time and I'd hate to see the same thing happen in Frontier. Honestly, I'm not sure which is the greater evil: Printing dual lands with basic land types or printing fetchlands that don't specify basic lands.
In either case, time to go buy up all the frontier legal lands. I think the fast lands from Kaladesh, enemy pain lands from origins, and the BFZ duals are the safest bet. SoI lands are a little too inconsistent.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The pool just isn't big enough and you will get just better tuned versions of today's standard stuff. In 5ish years I think this is something they could pursue.
I think a big issue here though is creating and pushing a new format kind of undermines consumer confidence for the secondary market. What I mean is that if I spend 2-4 years building a modern deck because I don't have a great deal of disposable income and they roll out a completely new format...why would I play it or continue trying to play the existing format. People are attracted to modern partly because it doesn't rotate. It's a safe haven for the standard decks of yesteryear that offers them the ability for further tuning. Personal opinion here: I love playing elves...and the elves in frontier would be atrocious, which makes me incredibly sad.
If it were a thing, fetches would be fine. You would maybe see a good deal of allied color decks due to the fetch/dual pool being both allied. It would offer the best fixing. the command cycle just further compounds the issue.
That being said...I've ordered my playset of rally ;). Better to be prepared for $2 USD than not.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
I believe that's the reason, easiest to set the cards in the format apart I guess
as for people saying modern is dead, I don't think it is yet. Modern is probably the most popular format at events I've seen. I've heard Face to face Games in Toronto stopped running standard events because every other format fires more
Much like how modern starts out with mirrodin and all of the problems that came with
Now I thought that Khans of Tarkir was a great set for standard, but the larger the cardpool becomes the more busted Treasure Cruise and co. become as well
Modern is close to being fantastic, with a few tweaks, so I see no need for something like frontier to exist
Modern is such a clustered political hot spot of vying factions and personal motivations that the only option left is to scrap it entirely or leave it be. At least with Frontier we can start with a clean slate and clean up whatever mess the starting block may create.
The second wizards actually steps in and tries to clean up modern in any significant way, we'll see some players decrying the death of magic while others will be running off because their favorite T1-T2 deck just got dumped on and they can't trade out of it without taking a big loss all thanks to how spiky the modern marketing meta-game is. That isn't going into the LGS store situation, but gods forbid anyone putting focus on the fact that the only reason any LGS would shutter down because of a modern shake up is poor investment choices.
The solution to the entire problem of Modern and an eternal card pool is to just follow a simple rule: Be selective on what you let into the card pool! If Wizards didn't just dump every last card and mechanic from standard into the eternal card pool we'd never have broken combos or other issues to begin with.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, it's probably a subject for another thread, but the main issues modern runs into is that they add the entirety of a standard block to the format each time a new set comes out. In general, the QA testers have a hard enough time dealing with standard and often miss a few broken or really powerful synergies when matching the newest set to the oldest one that is still standard legal. In the case of modern, we got an entire history going all the way back to Mirrodin to deal with. What WoTC should be doing is saying "Hey, these 10 cards in this set are legal in modern" and then make the rest casual / commander staples. Then print those cards in supplementary products to make sure there are enough to go around.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For me, the first priority should be having the full cycle of BFZ duals. The mana is super awkward in that some color combinations are a lot more viable than others. My first attempt at brewing a deck was Temur (UR splash G) Prowess with Treasure Cruise. Guess what? I found that a fast fetchland oriented mana base in Temur colors is not doable because we don`t have UG and UR duals. You have to either only be able to fetch G with your R fetches, or play Flooded Strand and fetch G in Canopy Vista, which means that you can`t fetch R with your U fetches. The other options is to use UR/UG fastlands and painlands, and then you can`t use the duals because they never enter untapped, which means that you only fetch basics with your fetchlands to fill the graveyard... and without Scalding Tarn, you pretty much don`t ever color fix with your fetches, only for RG. So fetchlands are 1 life, shuffle, get a basic and fill the yard, which feels very unrewarding. Part of the fun with brewing in a small and/or unsolved format is working around the restrictions in the card pool, but this was just straight up annoying. So the solution is to go UR with UB/RB duals and fetches, so you can fetch your other color via the black color that you`re not going to use, which is pretty stupid if you ask me. Shards and allied pairings, on the other hand, are smooth as milk with fetches and BFZ duals, which means that shards and alled color pairings have better access to the delve cards than enemy colors and wedges, which is just terrible balancing and a completely unnecessary restriction.
So to sum it up, I love the idea, but it`s not there yet in my opinion, people are being to impatient. I`ll give this format a second look when we have all ten duals and the format has evolved beyond Standard`s Greatest Hits Album 2014-2016, and/or when people are actually playing it actively in my area. In the meantime, I`m keeping my Rhinos and my Jaces for later.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I definitely see your point about banning the fetchlands. A lower price point, less shuffling and a nerf on delve cards sounds good. On the other hand, I like fetchlands. I like playing with them, simple as that. So on a purely subjective level, I have to disagree. I also think that they are well balanced without shocklands and ABUR duals. Shocklands are overpowered. Fetching for BFZ duals has a real cost, both in playing and building. If you want them to enter untapped most of the time, you need to be okay with playing/fetching your first two or two out of first three lands as basics. That dissuades you from playing other non-basics, such as manlands and fastlands, and it encourages you to play XY(z), where Z is a color you don't need until your third turn, and very greedy decks might be better off playing fastlands and painlands unless they are trying to delve or need the shuffle. So I think they are just fine when it comes to power level. As for price, well... Yeah. Fetches are expensive because they are shared between formats. Other than that, whatever's a staple in a popular format gets expensive. Ban fetchlands and wait a few years, and we'll see $30 fastlands. Not as expensive as fetches, but still, dtuff spikes from popularity. I don't even want to imagine where the near un-reprintable flip Jace might end up.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I agree with you on the fetches not being OP with the lack of shocks. The main issue with modern is the combination of shocks + fetches just gives way too much power to fix mana early in the game. With BFZ duals the player has to have at least two basics to play that dual untapped, and that means with a fetch land the soonest someone could fetch a dual untapped is turn 3. That's assuming the player hasn't already had to use the fetch to get something turn 1 or turn 2.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That's not true, because Fetches are played in older formats too, shocks aren't. Ban all fetchable nonbasics and fetchea become really bad. On their own they leave you with only 1 color for the rest of the game, thus makes shocks better on their own (unless you really need shuffle effects, landfall triggers, deck thinning though is proved to be neglible).
I think we just need Battle lands enemy cycle tbh to balance different tri-colors. But mana could be too good, so I could see fetch ban being good.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Price, while certainly the greatest barrier to a non-rotating format that is sanctioned in paper (poor poor Pauper, I have so many of your decks and no one plays it in brick and mortar stores, you are too good for this real world apparently) is not the issue I want solved. It just currently parallels the idea of a post modern/frontier format because of enormous print runs and a lack of viability in the non-rotating formats of Legacy or Modern. This new format solves the issue of current design philosophy of WotC in regards to Magic. You don't get lightning bolt, path to exile, blood moon, damnation, inquisition of kozilek, gitaxian probe, cantrips, tron lands, etc. now. Instead we have cards that are only worth anything in Standard, there is no incentive to keep Standard cards unless you make them competitive in a format with similar power level/design philosophy.
You open a box of Standard cards and all its value is tied to a rotating format. Trying to trade them for cards in a non-rotating format is a joke unless someone wants to jump into Standard. Why would they if it holds no value and depreciates so quickly? For fun? How fun is the format now that the norm is to copy the best two or three decks and play against them over and over again? That might just be my current Standard fatigue talking...
Every Magic player is concerned about price but its a hobby for people that have disposable income. Always. I can't pay for Modern decks unless I save and if I keep playing Standard I keep losing money (while its not fun, I concede that paying for fun is at least part of the value while Standard is enjoyable). Simply put, I want my Standard cards to be worth something outside Standard, by either making them Modern playable or Post-modern/Frontier playable. The 'collectible' in CCG is a farce when its worthless. WotC make my Standard cards Modern level power and say too bad to limited players! Actually, tell me you'll create a second reserve list for Standard cards and I'll be happy (this is a joke).
While yes, Shocklands are even better, with how relatively slow Standard was, and Frontier might be as well, compared to other Eternal formats, as well as more and more dual lands being printed, I don't think fetches can be left in the format as it is.
When the mana is that good, why play anything less than 3-4 colours?
And fetches mean a ton more shuffling during each game, something that not every Standard player might want to relive so soon again.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
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Also, strictly IMO, I hate when any format uses price as a metric for bans *cough*COMMANDED*cough*, versus banning on whether or not it is format warping, broken, etc.
We could go all day on the issues of the secondary market when it comes to MTG. The main problem is that WoTC is just really disorganized and behind on listening to what players want, let alone shop owners. The Pokemon TCG is doing everything right in my mind and is getting even more popular thanks to the release of Sun and Moon. However, the biggest win for Pokemon is the support that game gives to stores. Since the packages break down into more value than the wholesale price, small shops can stay afloat breaking these packages down to their components. Wizards for some reason is just like "heck no, we want all the monies" and forces artificially high prices on the secondary market by not giving enough discounts to retail on whole sale. Frontier format isn't going to solve this problem: only wizards can solve it by being more aggressive on products and letting retail outlets buy at discount price so they can make more money and offer better prices on singles like mythics and useful rares.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
We need to make one in the homebrew and variant forum. I have been intending to do so, but I haven't yet because I have not had the time to make a list of cards for the format. I feel that is important as there is no way to search gatherer for format cards yet.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post