I don't know about that. I'm not sure if you were around when gatecrash frist came out, but U/W was the best deck at one point. The only reason it stoped being the best was because of slaughter games. So they splashed black for obzedat to diversify threats. They no longer need to splash black for another game-ending threat, they can just play aetherling. Nobody wanted to splash black, they had to and now they don't have to. U/W will probably be one of the best decks in the format, it might even hate out mono red (almost did at one point). I think control will be WBR, U/W, or UWR mostly (of course bant is there, but I don't really consider them control). A few people will play esper but U/W will probably beat them since they are more consistent, it's not like the U/W decks that are played now can't deal with obzedat or anything, they still 3-1 tournaments.
That's not how I saw it. UW could actually win games with lyev and precinct alone even with the angels gone to Slaughter Games... actually, Slaughter Games mostly targeted Sphinx's Revelation.
UW died because it had no way to answer Obzedat... at all! And the thing is, if you're not playing against RDW, you're playing against Obzedat. Splashing for an Obzedat of your own is actually a very good counter to Obzedat, it also gives you Orzhov Charm and Devour Flesh.
I don't think Aetherling solves of the issues that UW has at the moment, it's an awesome finisher for any dedicated control deck but I don't think the lack of finishers was what killed UW in the first place. Considering how Obzedat is now the popular pick for Slaughter Games, it will sure help to have a 3rd threat in the esper deck.
I can't wait to try Far // Away.. I see it as a good way to handle many big threats in control mirrors. 3 mana is a bit much for that kind of removal, but it's interesting to have a 2 mana way of using it if it's vital... but fuse is obviously where the value is at.
I have a question for DRjester. Did you guys try to make Dimir work at all? I'm pretty sure it's too gimmicky to actually work, but we never know... I'm guessing if Esper is still a top deck, Dimir probably has no chance in that matchup either, aggro dimir wouldn't compete with the other more aggro guilds and there's probably no reason not to splash white for Sphinx's Revelation and Verdict... Obzedat...
I actually didn't consider alive/well, that does seem like an interesting choice. Congregate used to be bonkers in certain situations, and getting 1/2 a congregate for 1/4 the cost, with potential applications as a 3/3 or both later on seems quite strong. Worth thinking about, for sure.
EDIT: got the ok from the team to post the deck, I guess any help is good help. Here's our Selesnya Populate, probably the 75 I would sleeve up if the Pro Tour were tomorrow. Pretty confident that the main deck is at least 59/60 cards correct, although 4 charm main might be one too many. The sideboard is still a work in progress however. Suggestions are welcome.
The big things were doing that I haven't seen other lists doing is running the three-drops. Just because the deck is populate, doesn't mean you have to get all crazy with Trostani and whatnot in the main board, save that for the red matchup and the mirror. Game 1, the goal is simply to play the best dudes on rate and flood the board with undercosted fat. Smiter in particular is an important piece to fighting RWB, since he hoses Rakdos's Return and Sire of Insanity, and also matches up well against Boros Reckoner. Medic is just generally good, allowing you to attack into all sorts of crazy boards without fear, plus he gives you another tool against blue decks, to go along with Voice, Experiment 1 (survives Verdict), Smiter (uncounterable), Advent (instant-speed to play around counters) Rootborn Defenses (Verdict insurance) and Scion (singlehandedly rebuild your board post-Verdict). As you can see, we definitely built with Blue in mind, and I feel that we have a solid Control matchup with this deck.
Just two quick notes (even though I probably shouldn't, I suspect you'd have figured it out soon anyway).
1. As you may have noticed, if one side in the GW mirror doesn't get run over early both players typically get bogged down pretty badly. Even Frontline Medic in your deck doesn't help that much since typically you risk getting one-shotted on he back swing if the opp has kept up or the blowout from Druid's Deliverance. Trostani helps with this (way better than Growing Ranks, but can be legend ruled), however Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage is one of the actual answers. Not only is it an early drop, but it allows for T4 Advent, T5+ populate where as Trostani can't get started until T6.
It's also the only way to get ahead on populate mirrors since eventually you can do it 2/3x times a turn. If you get a scion token from Voice, then you've obviously already won since they'll eventually overpower everything on the field. There's some bad removal in the mirror that can stop it, but generally all of that is time sensitive. The other card we had was Gideon, Champion of Justice and just setting up his ultimate. That beat the populate mirror handily, but was harder to set-up on the whole and the lack of affecting the board made it more a late game card. Good vs. Revelation decks though.
Collective Blessing is probably the narrowest of all answers.
2. Voice mirrors are going to be huge at the PT. I'd run Renounce the Guilds as a 4-of in the board simply to have a way to trade off value early when on the draw. I also wouldn't be surprised to see 3-color versions purely for more ways to battle the mirror.
I'd be very surprised if people found a better deck than GWx with Voice, Smiter and Advent. You get access to the best Charm and a bunch of options along with two of the best five cards in the format. It's just a matter of finding the best shell.
Another mirror braker is angel skirmisher. It is almost unblockable indestructible creature in mirror, grants revelant abilities and is decent clock in board stagnation (also it mostly break stagnation).
You might also consider angel of serenity as a mirror breaker.
out of all the mirror breakers discussed here, gideon's the one I like the sounds of the most. With no o-ring in the format, the colour pairing has zero answers to gideon outside of attacking it (or, like, stupidly narrow stuff like martial law) and it's going to close games out pretty quickly if you can reach parity on the board.
Really? Isnt selesnya charm a thing? If u suggest eziling things and casting your own, it might not work as intended in world with instant speed 5/5 wurms
It sounds like these 3 colors decks you're playing aren't splashing one color, they're full on 3 colors. Do you find playing more than 4 guildgates screwing you over in the aggro match ups?
I'm solely going to be playing online where I imagine there's going to be 33-50% mono red at all times. If I want to play control, it looks like i'm stuck playing UW splashing a color, or possibly playing GW populate with main deck trostrani, and/or healers, and/or alive/well.
Well, the two 3-color decks I could see playing are either RWB or Esper. Esper is really just splashing the black, we run 5 guildgates and 1 Mazes End (great I n the blue mirror to get a mana advantage), 27 land total. The RWB deck also has 5 guildgates. I would never want to play a deck with more than 5 in this for,at, or 6 if you're going up to 27 lands. However, I think 5 is ok as long as you have a good curve with lots of stuff to do on 2 mana. Also, sweepers are a must if you're coming out slower against aggro, don't cut down on Mizzium Mortars for this reason.
@pedros, I totally didn't think of surprise worm in response to gideon ultimate. THat's obviously a bad plan then :). Either of the angels or guildmage then I guess are the way to go.
@polomaster i've never seen duskmantle seer do anything in the format, an untested 5-min woo broo special isn't going to change my mind on that :). I know for a fact that a lot of people have tested seer lists pre-DGM to no success, and that deck gets zero cards from DGM, I doubt it's suddenly going to become viable.
As always, I'm open to being proven wrong, but just from looking at the list I'm not seeing it.
Awful. As are almost all of the decks in Woo's article.
@Pedros / PB
Re: Wurm in response to Gideon. That's a thing, but remember that you'll inevitably be floating all your mana so odds are good you'll be doing something as impressive or moreso and have a Gideon on the table.
I don't think that BUG list is good per se, but I did get ROFLstomped by a BUG control brew during testing today. I was on Selesnya, and just couldn't make my deck beat BUG midrange with abrupt decay, putrefy, gaze of granite, counterspells, jace, and vraska. However, I think such a deck loses to other blue decks that have actual Sphinx's revelation, so it's mostly a non-starter. Jace + urban evolution only gets you so far.
I don't think that BUG list is good per se, but I did get ROFLstomped by a BUG control brew during testing today. I was on Selesnya, and just couldn't make my deck beat BUG midrange with abrupt decay, putrefy, gaze of granite, counterspells, jace, and vraska. However, I think such a deck loses to other blue decks that have actual Sphinx's revelation, so it's mostly a non-starter. Jace + urban evolution only gets you so far.
I dont really think so. In control mirror you get notion thief with whispering madness to outcard / screw their draws.
By the way, is Gaze of granite really that good? isnt it too slow?
What are you guys thinking about jund midrange deck?
Experiment One, Lothleth Troll and Varolz are awsome vs control.
Great creatures comparable to GW in deadbridge goliath, demon, rampager.
Domri Rade and Deadbridge Chant grants card advantage.
You have really good removal in Domri Rade with all oversized bodies, Putrefy, Abrupt Decay, Dreadbore
Reasonable mass removal in mizzium mortars, gaze of granite and golgari charm.
And last, but not the least - acceleration with zhur-ta druid and gyre sage.
Hell, you can even play Sire of Insanity, couse it isn't impossible to play it on turn 4!
Deck just asks to be build, however it is hard to get right creature/removal/advantage ratio.
What is correct number of creatures for domri rade? around 28?
What do you guys think about Deathrite shaman in block? Honestly I am not that impressed.
@Moo Cow the great.
You are right, you are probably also floating some mana. But it prevents you from total blowout, so you might get back in game with few more turns.
You have really good removal in Domri Rade with all oversized bodies, Putrefy, Abrupt Decay, Dreadbore
Reasonable mass removal in mizzium mortars, gaze of granite and golgari charm.
Deck just asks to be build, however it is hard to get right creature/removal/advantage ratio.
What is correct number of creatures for domri rade? around 28?
@Moo Cow the great.
You are right, you are probably also floating some mana. But it prevents you from total blowout, so you might get back in game with few more turns.
You can't play all those removal spells with domri. The most non creature cards you should be playing is 4. So if you're playing with domri you're going to be more of an aggro deck than a control/midrange deck. For reference here's Efro's PT top 8 list (efro is naya and not jund however). There's also a jund midrange deck that top 8'd so you can see what your creature base would look like if you wanted to play a more controlling build.
Experiment One, Lothleth Troll and Varolz are awsome vs control.
Great creatures comparable to GW in deadbridge goliath, demon, rampager.
If you compare RTR block jund to ISD jund, those creatures aren't as good as huntmaster, olivia, and falkenrath aristocrat. Then it had amazing planeswalkers in garruk relentless and liliana. In block you get vraska, which is a joke, and you get domri, which is okay, but not as insane as garruk or liliana. In standard Jund got some new goodies in thragtusk and big garruk. The jund deck you can build in RTR just doesn't seem that powerful. Plus the cards you listed aren't the best cards in the block. I could see the jund midrange deck be at best a tier 2 deck.
What do you guys think about Deathrite shaman in block? Honestly I am not that impressed.
I think you can main deck deathrite if you're playing grisly salvage. And now that they printed some more cards that utilize your graveyard that combination of cards might be worth trying.
just as a heads up, I'll be adding a new online meta-tracking feature to this column now that DGM is out. I'll be going through every published daily and making a subjective call as to the categorisation of the deck and then presenting the stats each week, perhaps with a monthly roundup every 4 weeks. I'll obviously have to make some calls as to how to classify each deck, and how to do so without calling each minor variation a different archetype, but I honestly think I'll be able to present a more meaningful picture this way than automated stat collection sites.
The first edition of this won't be in the column coming out today/tomorrow, but the one after.
I think if you wanted to do something like that, you should watch the replays of dailies that aren't recorded. So you get the full data set instead of 1/6th of it. You don't get to see the minor variations by looking at replays, but just using the published dailies only gives you 1/6 of those minor variations.
I did this for modern for a 3 week period. I watched the replays of all the people who 3-1/4-0'd. I knew all the archetypes well enough that I could do it pretty fast. But sometimes i'd have to watch multiple replays to see if the jund player was splashing white. I stopped doing it when dailies got to 100 players. It was pretty tedious. I don't know if you'd be up for that, but it would give your articles something that no one else has.
Article 8 is up, a couple of days late to be published this week for some reason. In it, I brew/borrow 4 new DGM-based decklists, rakdos aggro, UB madness, bant auras and bant flash:
I've just spent about 30 hours in the last 3 days testing Block with DGM with my team in preparation for the Pro Tour, and our conclusion so far is that there is essentially a 4-deck metagame: Rakdos aggro, Esper Control, RBW control, and Selesnya Populate.
So you weren't exactly correct with the rakdos aggro deck being tier 1, as only 2 people are playing it at the PT. Mind sharing your list?
Thank you for article series. I love the metagame analysis which is a lot like Nick Vigabool's Standard analysis. Also, please continue to cover individual archetypes. I've been playing with GW lately but I don't have the time to get a lot of games in. Your "how to play" section really helped me understand some of my tougher matchups.
Just wanted to say, that I've been reading all of your articles and I love them, keep it up. I especially love it when you talk about individual archetypes like this last one on selesnya.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Thanks for the feedback guys, its really appreciated. Next 3 or 4 at least should be archetype focus ones, which ones will depend on what I'm able to get game time into.
The weekly stats are fairly interesting there, and I hope you like the new "rogue decklist" feature, I think I've already found a spicy one to showcase next week. I'll be doing a recap of a full month of stats next week too.
My rough article plan over the next month or so is as follows:
* R(x) aggro
* Esper control
* 4-colour chant
* UWx variants (bant and UWR)
* Maze's end
I'm not entirely sure where I'll go with the column from there, there tends to be a bit of a lull in block in that midyear period, I might branch out into other things such as transitioning block decks to standard in light of M14 and possible Theros spoilers etc and general strategies for turning a block collection into a standard deck. I might also do some fuller rogue deck spotlights and maybe event reports, although I'm unlikely to do vids because it's not practical for me to record voice at home.
That's not how I saw it. UW could actually win games with lyev and precinct alone even with the angels gone to Slaughter Games... actually, Slaughter Games mostly targeted Sphinx's Revelation.
UW died because it had no way to answer Obzedat... at all! And the thing is, if you're not playing against RDW, you're playing against Obzedat. Splashing for an Obzedat of your own is actually a very good counter to Obzedat, it also gives you Orzhov Charm and Devour Flesh.
I don't think Aetherling solves of the issues that UW has at the moment, it's an awesome finisher for any dedicated control deck but I don't think the lack of finishers was what killed UW in the first place. Considering how Obzedat is now the popular pick for Slaughter Games, it will sure help to have a 3rd threat in the esper deck.
I can't wait to try Far // Away.. I see it as a good way to handle many big threats in control mirrors. 3 mana is a bit much for that kind of removal, but it's interesting to have a 2 mana way of using it if it's vital... but fuse is obviously where the value is at.
I have a question for DRjester. Did you guys try to make Dimir work at all? I'm pretty sure it's too gimmicky to actually work, but we never know... I'm guessing if Esper is still a top deck, Dimir probably has no chance in that matchup either, aggro dimir wouldn't compete with the other more aggro guilds and there's probably no reason not to splash white for Sphinx's Revelation and Verdict... Obzedat...
Just two quick notes (even though I probably shouldn't, I suspect you'd have figured it out soon anyway).
1. As you may have noticed, if one side in the GW mirror doesn't get run over early both players typically get bogged down pretty badly. Even Frontline Medic in your deck doesn't help that much since typically you risk getting one-shotted on he back swing if the opp has kept up or the blowout from Druid's Deliverance. Trostani helps with this (way better than Growing Ranks, but can be legend ruled), however Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage is one of the actual answers. Not only is it an early drop, but it allows for T4 Advent, T5+ populate where as Trostani can't get started until T6.
It's also the only way to get ahead on populate mirrors since eventually you can do it 2/3x times a turn. If you get a scion token from Voice, then you've obviously already won since they'll eventually overpower everything on the field. There's some bad removal in the mirror that can stop it, but generally all of that is time sensitive. The other card we had was Gideon, Champion of Justice and just setting up his ultimate. That beat the populate mirror handily, but was harder to set-up on the whole and the lack of affecting the board made it more a late game card. Good vs. Revelation decks though.
Collective Blessing is probably the narrowest of all answers.
2. Voice mirrors are going to be huge at the PT. I'd run Renounce the Guilds as a 4-of in the board simply to have a way to trade off value early when on the draw. I also wouldn't be surprised to see 3-color versions purely for more ways to battle the mirror.
I'd be very surprised if people found a better deck than GWx with Voice, Smiter and Advent. You get access to the best Charm and a bunch of options along with two of the best five cards in the format. It's just a matter of finding the best shell.
You might also consider angel of serenity as a mirror breaker.
...
What if something totally random like Glaring Spotlight could be good in that matchup?
...
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
I'm solely going to be playing online where I imagine there's going to be 33-50% mono red at all times. If I want to play control, it looks like i'm stuck playing UW splashing a color, or possibly playing GW populate with main deck trostrani, and/or healers, and/or alive/well.
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
4 Experiment One
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Gyre Sage
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Drakewing Krasis
4 Duskmantle Seer
1 Deadbridge Goliath
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Rupture
3 Simic Charm
Lands
2 Simic Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
Source: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/woo-brews-preparing-for-pt-dragons-maze/
@polomaster i've never seen duskmantle seer do anything in the format, an untested 5-min woo broo special isn't going to change my mind on that :). I know for a fact that a lot of people have tested seer lists pre-DGM to no success, and that deck gets zero cards from DGM, I doubt it's suddenly going to become viable.
As always, I'm open to being proven wrong, but just from looking at the list I'm not seeing it.
Awful. As are almost all of the decks in Woo's article.
@Pedros / PB
Re: Wurm in response to Gideon. That's a thing, but remember that you'll inevitably be floating all your mana so odds are good you'll be doing something as impressive or moreso and have a Gideon on the table.
Thanks to Avatar for the rockin' Sig and Avvy!
I dont really think so. In control mirror you get notion thief with whispering madness to outcard / screw their draws.
By the way, is Gaze of granite really that good? isnt it too slow?
What are you guys thinking about jund midrange deck?
Experiment One, Lothleth Troll and Varolz are awsome vs control.
Great creatures comparable to GW in deadbridge goliath, demon, rampager.
Domri Rade and Deadbridge Chant grants card advantage.
You have really good removal in Domri Rade with all oversized bodies, Putrefy, Abrupt Decay, Dreadbore
Reasonable mass removal in mizzium mortars, gaze of granite and golgari charm.
And last, but not the least - acceleration with zhur-ta druid and gyre sage.
Hell, you can even play Sire of Insanity, couse it isn't impossible to play it on turn 4!
Deck just asks to be build, however it is hard to get right creature/removal/advantage ratio.
What is correct number of creatures for domri rade? around 28?
What do you guys think about Deathrite shaman in block? Honestly I am not that impressed.
@Moo Cow the great.
You are right, you are probably also floating some mana. But it prevents you from total blowout, so you might get back in game with few more turns.
not against tokens it isn't :).
You can't play all those removal spells with domri. The most non creature cards you should be playing is 4. So if you're playing with domri you're going to be more of an aggro deck than a control/midrange deck. For reference here's Efro's PT top 8 list (efro is naya and not jund however). There's also a jund midrange deck that top 8'd so you can see what your creature base would look like if you wanted to play a more controlling build.
If you compare RTR block jund to ISD jund, those creatures aren't as good as huntmaster, olivia, and falkenrath aristocrat. Then it had amazing planeswalkers in garruk relentless and liliana. In block you get vraska, which is a joke, and you get domri, which is okay, but not as insane as garruk or liliana. In standard Jund got some new goodies in thragtusk and big garruk. The jund deck you can build in RTR just doesn't seem that powerful. Plus the cards you listed aren't the best cards in the block. I could see the jund midrange deck be at best a tier 2 deck.
I think you can main deck deathrite if you're playing grisly salvage. And now that they printed some more cards that utilize your graveyard that combination of cards might be worth trying.
The first edition of this won't be in the column coming out today/tomorrow, but the one after.
I did this for modern for a 3 week period. I watched the replays of all the people who 3-1/4-0'd. I knew all the archetypes well enough that I could do it pretty fast. But sometimes i'd have to watch multiple replays to see if the jund player was splashing white. I stopped doing it when dailies got to 100 players. It was pretty tedious. I don't know if you'd be up for that, but it would give your articles something that no one else has.
There's a guy that watches draft replays for his article series
http://puremtgo.com/articles/ars-arcanum-dragons-maze-limited-primer-part-2
And a guy did it to find out if it's better to be on the draw or play.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/play-or-draw/
It's not uncommon to do it.
http://puremtgo.com/articles/around-block-8-brewing-dgm-old-new-borrowed-and-blue
So you weren't exactly correct with the rakdos aggro deck being tier 1, as only 2 people are playing it at the PT. Mind sharing your list?
http://puremtgo.com/articles/around-block-9-pro-tour-dragons-maze-analysis
http://puremtgo.com/articles/around-block-10-populating-victory
Anyone like the GW populate = UB faeries analogy?
Thank you for article series. I love the metagame analysis which is a lot like Nick Vigabool's Standard analysis. Also, please continue to cover individual archetypes. I've been playing with GW lately but I don't have the time to get a lot of games in. Your "how to play" section really helped me understand some of my tougher matchups.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
http://puremtgo.com/articles/around-block-11-scavenging-bottom-graveyard
The weekly stats are fairly interesting there, and I hope you like the new "rogue decklist" feature, I think I've already found a spicy one to showcase next week. I'll be doing a recap of a full month of stats next week too.
My rough article plan over the next month or so is as follows:
* R(x) aggro
* Esper control
* 4-colour chant
* UWx variants (bant and UWR)
* Maze's end
I'm not entirely sure where I'll go with the column from there, there tends to be a bit of a lull in block in that midyear period, I might branch out into other things such as transitioning block decks to standard in light of M14 and possible Theros spoilers etc and general strategies for turning a block collection into a standard deck. I might also do some fuller rogue deck spotlights and maybe event reports, although I'm unlikely to do vids because it's not practical for me to record voice at home.