I'm a fairly experienced draft player. I draft in RL about twice a week with friends, and more recently took to drafting online with a friend.
Last week we sat through around 50 Draft tournaments on MTGO... I'm very knowledgeable when it comes to drafting, I've done all my homework, and I like to think I'm good at putting decks together.
After it was all said and done this week, I can't help but feel I'll never draft again.
You could ask, Jeremy!? Why in the world would you draft 50 Times with M10 when Zendikar is live and soon to be live on MTGO. I retort; "Why not"?
After playing so much of it over such a short period of time, I can't help but feel it's nothing more than a crapshoot. I know picks, I know card power, I can't possibly be the most unlucky person to play, but winning just seems too far fetched... I don't understand how people get their limited rating up to 2000+ (at least on mtgo)...
In real life drafting, I find myself more often than not either finishing first, or 2ed behind someone worthy...
Online it's just not that way.
It just seems like whoever opens the best cards win. Period. I was playing against a guy and his first 4 turns I was like, "wow I got this, he has horrible cards!"... Then he drops a captain of the watch... "Ok, not good, but I could still win this..." Then he drops a baneslayer... ... excuse me? This guys pulls a baneslayer and a captain and I pull a Hive Mind and a ManaBarbs (not that I PICKED those cards, but they were my rares)
How can you compete with Baneslayers when your rare is manabarbs or hive mind?? Over and over again... I would play against people who pull stupid powerful cards THAT ALSO WORK TOGETHER while I'm sitting here excited that I was passed a few fireballs, or pyroclasms... yay... (One guy actually pulled a Garruk, Ant Queen, Master of the Wild Hunt, and was passed a K. Behemoth, and naturally every other green card in the draft for him to cherry pick) ZzZz
It's so frustrating. I've surmised that it's more luck than anything else, and just another thing to beat your head against, chasing your tail, spending money. Sure you can win once in awhile, but when you do, you're so far in the hole that you're not even close to breaking even... *sigh*
I encountered the same thing with the Zendikar Sealed prerelease events, I played 1, pulled a Lotus Cobra and a few low dollar rares, none of my rares/colors had much synergy, made a mediocre deck, but arguably the best I could with the tools given... won a single pack... Ok, cool, I can sell the cards, and buy into a 2ed event, possibly do better...
Round 2: the best rare I got was a Scut mob ... not even any good uncommons, just jank all around... 3 magic friends sitting there going, man you're doomed...
Rightfully so.
Limited is just a way for wizard to sell product, with your only chance of winning being luck pulls.
Pass...
/end rant
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Originally Posted by Tha Gunslinga View Post
They're ebaying for $15. Therefore it is worth $15 to me. Obviously if you would rather pay more from a store then you can value it higher. That's what I like to call the stupidity tax.
M10 is bomby and luck-based, with a wide disparity between awesome and unplayable cards. Although your great success in-store just shows that the level of competition is higher online; with more opponents at or above your skill level, they will capitalize on whatever bombs they were handed.
However if you think Zen limited = rares, you're doing it wrong. Pile together an aggro deck from decent commons = win. So I wouldn't avoid Zen based on M10 experience. (Although if you love control, that's another matter. )
I am drafting with friends this weekend, and I can say for sure that 4 of the players will be worse than any mtgo competition. But that said, did you keep stats? How many draft sets did it take to play 50 times? 30? 40? How many baneslayers did *you* pull? i mean you opened 4 boxes.
i'm sorry about you getting totally reamed on MTGO, admittedly i play Swiss, but 90% of the time i always end up 2-1, even with ****** pools. i've only done 1 Zen draft so far and i got trounced round 1, round 2 was a bye, and round 3. i just overpowered his slowness...
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I second this motion. I just drafted M2010 with my friend on MODO and he lost to overrun twice...although he had overrun and a much better deck. G1 his opponent dropped t7 overrun FTW, not much to say here. G2, he got stalled on 4 lands (1 forest, 3 plains; he kept a hand with 1F2P) and didn't have enough to play either the garruk or overrun in his hand. Sure enough, on t10, his opponent topdecked the overrun.
Fog and Safe Passage are good cards I hear. I've drafted overrun before and its been total crap. With that said, M10 is very bomb oriented and it does largely depend on who gets out thier bombs first and if you have an answer handy.
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Here's a summary of why M2010 drafts online are probably not the way to go for you. Much of this has already been said by other posters.
1. Magic online is generally more competitive than the local stores that usually have a larger percentage of beginning players/casual players.
2. M2010 has a lot of "I win" bombs.
3. If new or beginning players on Magic Online start drafting, they will probably start with M2010. Therefore a M2010 draft table is more likely to have a huge swing in player skill level. If your first round opponent is sitting next to a new player who is still learning how the game works, then that first round opponent is going to have nearly twice the opportunity to open bombs than you. Since where you sit is random, this effect increases the luck factor.
4. If you have the time to do 50 drafts, then you probably have the time to play in the 4 round sealed deck events that have much nicer prizes.
Drafts are fun, quick, and easy on Magic Online. However they have never been all that profitable. If you're trying to "get ahead," "go infinite," or "make a profit" from drafts then you need to have a win percentage of around 80% or higher, which is difficult even for Pro Tour pros.
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"Victory favors neither the righteous nor the wicked. It favors the prepared." - Lay of the Land quote
Thanks for the replies, I'm sorry I was just upset at my own rotten luck. I pulled no baneslayer at all. My best pull was a Garruk or two. Maybe a Siege Gang. I also failed to comment on the way way way bogus way the land works on MTGO. There's just no way.
For example... I had a SICK deck (In my mind)...
Give or take:
1x Siege Gang
1x Goblin Chieften
2x Pyroclasm
2x Fireball
3x Goblin Artillery
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Mark of Mutiny
2x Wall of Fire
And random whatever else, I think I even managed to pick up like 3 Dragon claws to offset the artillery... (obviously very late picks) Running 17 land, I don't pull a third land until turn 9. Are you kidding me... /fail
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Originally Posted by Tha Gunslinga View Post
They're ebaying for $15. Therefore it is worth $15 to me. Obviously if you would rather pay more from a store then you can value it higher. That's what I like to call the stupidity tax.
A pretty solid deck with no rares because I also suffer from the crap rare pack opening disorder, lol. But I would scrub out in round one with a deck like this for several reasons:
1. Opponent has ridiculous bombs like double Ant Queen with Garruck Wildspeaker.
2. Mana Screw/Flood (happens to everyone and can't be avoided)
3. I totally mess up with the software on MTGO
I have clicked my way into 70% of my losses (and I think that number is conservative). I know there's a "learning curve", but still I think I am just too dumb to play online. Here are a few notables:
1. Miscast Harm's Way, thus not 2 for 1-ing and losing in the end because of it.
2. Not realizing it is my turn and click through all of my phases, thus skipping my turn.
3. Somehow pressing "F6" and skipping my turn.
4. Conceding Match instead of Conceding Game
5. Reading "Do you want to mulligan down to 6 cards?" as "Do you want to keep?" and then clicking "Yes" for the loss.
Those all cost me match losses and a lot of them were really devastating because I am pretty sure I could have won those matches.Then there are the countless times I have just skipped attacking all together, which may have ultimately resulted in a game loss or two.
I realize that these things are MY fault but usually I am really focused on the game state and what is going on elsewhere in game strategy-wise that I just forget how the software works sometimes.
It is funny, MTGO warns you if you want to move into another phase of your turn with mana floating, but it will let you "F6" away your whole turn with land to play on an empty board with no problems.
Once you push "F6", is there a way to undo it?
So all in all I have done about 11 or so drafts online 9 M10 and 2 Zendikar. I have 2 Zendikar penny rares to show for it (and 6 packs), and I only opened a Time Warp and a Glacial Fortress in 9 M10 drafts. I don't really care about opening great rares though, as long as I can build a deck that will at least 2-1.
Arghhh, I just did a sealed swiss queue and rage at the results.
My pool was extremely mediocre.
I didn't build the right colors probably, but managed to win a round.
In the last round, the one that decides if I win anything at all, I play another 1-2 person, who has 3x Hideous End, Ob Nixilis, and Sorin.
Yes, he was a bad player, and that is why it was so infuriating when his cards did the work for him in the first game, and the second game he beat me with a Needlebite Trap.
Rage.
(Granted, LSV was in my queue, and I didn't have to play him)
Edit:
Won first round of a draft.
Playing second round, I beat him down to TWO LIFE with a Unstable Footing (And harrow) in hand. I had 3 plains and a mountain out. (I also had an ally that would have gotten me the win had I drawn even a plains)
I didn't draw another land all game, and this was over the course of at least 9 turns.
The second game I was screwed out of white entirely and couldn't do anything.
At least I got two packs? :/
The shock from playing in store competition (if you play any repeat opponents over the course of weeks/months of FNM you can get a "feel" for how they play and you can use that information to your advantage) to playing unknown mtgo opponents can be harsh.
I always play MTGO by myself not with a room of MTG players trying to make the best decisions. I can usually win the first round, sometimes the second, rarely the third. When I play in Real Life events however, I expect only to lose one match the whole day, at the local level.
Not that I think there is anyway to stop colluding on mtgo, it happens a lot. I even hear about it a lot when I'm at stores and events.
I also play to make myself a better player. I've been on both ends of the "luck" factor of MTGO. there were some matches where I had no right to win and only won because the guy only drew 2 lands over the course of the game. I've also been in those matches where I had bomby cards and they had the exact right cards to beat me. Welcome to trading card games.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
Welcome to card games in general. Poker pros don't always make the final table either. These games do require quite a bit of skill to play, but luck is always a big factor as well.
My games last night fall in line with this discussion.
My pool was mediocre, but I had Celestial Mantle, Shepherd of the Lost, Turntimber Ranger + four more allies, 2x Journey to Nowhere, Harrow, etc...
In game one I quickly jumped to 56 life thanks to Grazing Gladeheart, Harrow, and a Celestial Mantled Shepherd. He offs the Shepherd after one attack, but I thought for sure I still had it in the bag. When it was 56 to 12, he casts Sorin Markov, activates his second ability taking me from 56 to 10, and then swings in for the win....
Game Two....Total mana screw with two lands in hand to start the game, one green expedition in the deck, harrow in the deck, and 17 total lands with only one spell casting over 5....
Round 2, I win.
Round 3, I get forest flooded on game one with all white cards in hand and plains flooded game two with all green cards in hand.
Round 4, I mull to five keeping a two land hand and I miss my third land drop on turns three, four, five, and six. After I'm killed, I draw my next 6 cards = 5 lands and a Harrow. Game two I draw nothing BUT lands after keeping a 2 land hand.
The result? I walk away $30 poorer with no packs and $6 worth of sealed pool.
My limited rating online has gone from 1768 to 1700 in two weeks. I know that there are areas in my deckbuilding and my play that I can improve, but good grief its painful to lose to randomness.
On the flipside, it feels great to hit things in stride. It doesn't feel like that happens often, but when it does, I fall back in love with limited.
It is amazing how you can take a really good player, put them on modo, and they look comletely average. It really makes you wonder how some pros got to where they are. Part of it I'm sure is on modo people can't forget things like stacking and upkeep triggers, adding +1/+1 counters and whatnot. There are less chances for mistakes.
Do pros get mana screwed as much as us regular folks? I really don't know, but my experience on modo almost makes me advocate some system of manaweaving (though I know it could never work), just to get more games decided by play decisions and not mana hose.
MTGO competition is a lot more fierce. Also, don't do swiss noobs tend to pass on stupid things a lot more often stick to the 4-3-2-2. For some reason when I was heavy in the drafting on MTGO I consistently won more there.
nah man, alara block is horrible! go with zendikar. it's way more balanced than shards n it's a lot more fun to draft.
Zen is more fun? Yes cause its new.
M10 was garbage and I regret playing so much of it. Too many unanswerable bombs and even more at uncommon. F'ing stupid.
More balanced? Well I dunno. Ive seen people die on turn 4 to ridiculous landfall luck. Also allies are nuts, BR is nuts.
As said before, the talent pool on MTGO is much deeper. One analogy I head before was something to the effect of, every game you play on MTGO should be played like your at a PTQ.
MTGO is not FNM. You will probably never do as good, and never know what others are thinking/drafting.
You will have high and low spurts. I myself just lost four drafts in round 1. Then followed it with four trips to the finals.
Also remember, the shuffler is not screwing you. It's just that random. Far far far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more random than any deck shuffling you've ever done in your life. Know when to mulligan and if you really wanna be safe (like I am lately) always run 18 land.
Last week we sat through around 50 Draft tournaments on MTGO... I'm very knowledgeable when it comes to drafting, I've done all my homework, and I like to think I'm good at putting decks together.
After it was all said and done this week, I can't help but feel I'll never draft again.
You could ask, Jeremy!? Why in the world would you draft 50 Times with M10 when Zendikar is live and soon to be live on MTGO. I retort; "Why not"?
After playing so much of it over such a short period of time, I can't help but feel it's nothing more than a crapshoot. I know picks, I know card power, I can't possibly be the most unlucky person to play, but winning just seems too far fetched... I don't understand how people get their limited rating up to 2000+ (at least on mtgo)...
In real life drafting, I find myself more often than not either finishing first, or 2ed behind someone worthy...
Online it's just not that way.
It just seems like whoever opens the best cards win. Period. I was playing against a guy and his first 4 turns I was like, "wow I got this, he has horrible cards!"... Then he drops a captain of the watch... "Ok, not good, but I could still win this..." Then he drops a baneslayer... ... excuse me? This guys pulls a baneslayer and a captain and I pull a Hive Mind and a ManaBarbs (not that I PICKED those cards, but they were my rares)
How can you compete with Baneslayers when your rare is manabarbs or hive mind?? Over and over again... I would play against people who pull stupid powerful cards THAT ALSO WORK TOGETHER while I'm sitting here excited that I was passed a few fireballs, or pyroclasms... yay... (One guy actually pulled a Garruk, Ant Queen, Master of the Wild Hunt, and was passed a K. Behemoth, and naturally every other green card in the draft for him to cherry pick) ZzZz
It's so frustrating. I've surmised that it's more luck than anything else, and just another thing to beat your head against, chasing your tail, spending money. Sure you can win once in awhile, but when you do, you're so far in the hole that you're not even close to breaking even... *sigh*
I encountered the same thing with the Zendikar Sealed prerelease events, I played 1, pulled a Lotus Cobra and a few low dollar rares, none of my rares/colors had much synergy, made a mediocre deck, but arguably the best I could with the tools given... won a single pack... Ok, cool, I can sell the cards, and buy into a 2ed event, possibly do better...
Round 2: the best rare I got was a Scut mob ... not even any good uncommons, just jank all around... 3 magic friends sitting there going, man you're doomed...
Rightfully so.
Limited is just a way for wizard to sell product, with your only chance of winning being luck pulls.
Pass...
/end rant
BRUGW Wargate Storme ControlWGURB
B Mono-Black Cheater Vamps B
BGR Jund Midrange RGB
GR Unyielding Assault RG
However if you think Zen limited = rares, you're doing it wrong. Pile together an aggro deck from decent commons = win. So I wouldn't avoid Zen based on M10 experience. (Although if you love control, that's another matter. )
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1. Magic online is generally more competitive than the local stores that usually have a larger percentage of beginning players/casual players.
2. M2010 has a lot of "I win" bombs.
3. If new or beginning players on Magic Online start drafting, they will probably start with M2010. Therefore a M2010 draft table is more likely to have a huge swing in player skill level. If your first round opponent is sitting next to a new player who is still learning how the game works, then that first round opponent is going to have nearly twice the opportunity to open bombs than you. Since where you sit is random, this effect increases the luck factor.
4. If you have the time to do 50 drafts, then you probably have the time to play in the 4 round sealed deck events that have much nicer prizes.
Drafts are fun, quick, and easy on Magic Online. However they have never been all that profitable. If you're trying to "get ahead," "go infinite," or "make a profit" from drafts then you need to have a win percentage of around 80% or higher, which is difficult even for Pro Tour pros.
For example... I had a SICK deck (In my mind)...
Give or take:
1x Siege Gang
1x Goblin Chieften
2x Pyroclasm
2x Fireball
3x Goblin Artillery
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Mark of Mutiny
2x Wall of Fire
And random whatever else, I think I even managed to pick up like 3 Dragon claws to offset the artillery... (obviously very late picks) Running 17 land, I don't pull a third land until turn 9. Are you kidding me... /fail
BRUGW Wargate Storme ControlWGURB
B Mono-Black Cheater Vamps B
BGR Jund Midrange RGB
GR Unyielding Assault RG
1x Serra Angel
1x Air Elemental
2x Safe Passage
1x Harm's Way
2x Snapping Drake
1x Razorfoot Griffin
2x Elite Vanguard
1x Divination
2x Essence Scatter
1x Negate
1x Wall of Frost
1x Wind Drake
2x Veteran Armorsmith
2x Blinding Mage
9x Plains
8x Islands
A pretty solid deck with no rares because I also suffer from the crap rare pack opening disorder, lol. But I would scrub out in round one with a deck like this for several reasons:
I have clicked my way into 70% of my losses (and I think that number is conservative). I know there's a "learning curve", but still I think I am just too dumb to play online. Here are a few notables:
Those all cost me match losses and a lot of them were really devastating because I am pretty sure I could have won those matches.Then there are the countless times I have just skipped attacking all together, which may have ultimately resulted in a game loss or two.
I realize that these things are MY fault but usually I am really focused on the game state and what is going on elsewhere in game strategy-wise that I just forget how the software works sometimes.
It is funny, MTGO warns you if you want to move into another phase of your turn with mana floating, but it will let you "F6" away your whole turn with land to play on an empty board with no problems.
Once you push "F6", is there a way to undo it?
So all in all I have done about 11 or so drafts online 9 M10 and 2 Zendikar. I have 2 Zendikar penny rares to show for it (and 6 packs), and I only opened a Time Warp and a Glacial Fortress in 9 M10 drafts. I don't really care about opening great rares though, as long as I can build a deck that will at least 2-1.
[/rant]
Conclusion: MTGO drafting is frustrating.
My pool was extremely mediocre.
I didn't build the right colors probably, but managed to win a round.
In the last round, the one that decides if I win anything at all, I play another 1-2 person, who has 3x Hideous End, Ob Nixilis, and Sorin.
Yes, he was a bad player, and that is why it was so infuriating when his cards did the work for him in the first game, and the second game he beat me with a Needlebite Trap.
Rage.
(Granted, LSV was in my queue, and I didn't have to play him)
Edit:
Won first round of a draft.
Playing second round, I beat him down to TWO LIFE with a Unstable Footing (And harrow) in hand. I had 3 plains and a mountain out. (I also had an ally that would have gotten me the win had I drawn even a plains)
I didn't draw another land all game, and this was over the course of at least 9 turns.
The second game I was screwed out of white entirely and couldn't do anything.
At least I got two packs? :/
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I always play MTGO by myself not with a room of MTG players trying to make the best decisions. I can usually win the first round, sometimes the second, rarely the third. When I play in Real Life events however, I expect only to lose one match the whole day, at the local level.
Not that I think there is anyway to stop colluding on mtgo, it happens a lot. I even hear about it a lot when I'm at stores and events.
I also play to make myself a better player. I've been on both ends of the "luck" factor of MTGO. there were some matches where I had no right to win and only won because the guy only drew 2 lands over the course of the game. I've also been in those matches where I had bomby cards and they had the exact right cards to beat me. Welcome to trading card games.
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My pool was mediocre, but I had Celestial Mantle, Shepherd of the Lost, Turntimber Ranger + four more allies, 2x Journey to Nowhere, Harrow, etc...
In game one I quickly jumped to 56 life thanks to Grazing Gladeheart, Harrow, and a Celestial Mantled Shepherd. He offs the Shepherd after one attack, but I thought for sure I still had it in the bag. When it was 56 to 12, he casts Sorin Markov, activates his second ability taking me from 56 to 10, and then swings in for the win....
Game Two....Total mana screw with two lands in hand to start the game, one green expedition in the deck, harrow in the deck, and 17 total lands with only one spell casting over 5....
Round 2, I win.
Round 3, I get forest flooded on game one with all white cards in hand and plains flooded game two with all green cards in hand.
Round 4, I mull to five keeping a two land hand and I miss my third land drop on turns three, four, five, and six. After I'm killed, I draw my next 6 cards = 5 lands and a Harrow. Game two I draw nothing BUT lands after keeping a 2 land hand.
The result? I walk away $30 poorer with no packs and $6 worth of sealed pool.
My limited rating online has gone from 1768 to 1700 in two weeks. I know that there are areas in my deckbuilding and my play that I can improve, but good grief its painful to lose to randomness.
On the flipside, it feels great to hit things in stride. It doesn't feel like that happens often, but when it does, I fall back in love with limited.
- Adam
Do pros get mana screwed as much as us regular folks? I really don't know, but my experience on modo almost makes me advocate some system of manaweaving (though I know it could never work), just to get more games decided by play decisions and not mana hose.
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
Zen is more fun? Yes cause its new.
M10 was garbage and I regret playing so much of it. Too many unanswerable bombs and even more at uncommon. F'ing stupid.
More balanced? Well I dunno. Ive seen people die on turn 4 to ridiculous landfall luck. Also allies are nuts, BR is nuts.
As said before, the talent pool on MTGO is much deeper. One analogy I head before was something to the effect of, every game you play on MTGO should be played like your at a PTQ.
MTGO is not FNM. You will probably never do as good, and never know what others are thinking/drafting.
You will have high and low spurts. I myself just lost four drafts in round 1. Then followed it with four trips to the finals.
Also remember, the shuffler is not screwing you. It's just that random. Far far far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more random than any deck shuffling you've ever done in your life. Know when to mulligan and if you really wanna be safe (like I am lately) always run 18 land.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
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