I have ended 3 times 2do place and 1st recently
Dsj is the best
I only had problems with combo, even having discard the lack of counters males you struggle from topdecks
I know everyone says gds is better but after playing a lot both i still believe this is better
My question is mainly how does this deck function against mana denial? A single GQ can knock you completely out of Blue mana, and afaik there isn't any real way to defend against it. Eldrazi, Tron, Bears, Junk etc. all play GQ, and this list hinges pretty heavily on counterspells.
Does anyone have input on how to SB with this deck?
My question is mainly how does this deck function against mana denial? A single GQ can knock you completely out of Blue mana, and afaik there isn't any real way to defend against it. Eldrazi, Tron, Bears, Junk etc. all play GQ, and this list hinges pretty heavily on counterspells.
Does anyone have input on how to SB with this deck?
This list runs 3 MD Stubborn Denials, meaning it's metagamed vs uninteractive decks. Spicklemore probably expected a lot of Storm, Ad Nauseam, and Scapeshift. Against all of the decks you've mentioned (besides Tron Tron), it's safe to assume you can board out the Stubs in favor of cards that will aid that particular matchup, therefore lowering your reliance on U, and your vulnerability to GQ. That said, you've also listed some pretty difficult matchups, and GQ is at a premium when it comes to keeping this deck down.
Went 3-1 tonight @ Modern! Been foiling out my deck and decided to take it for another spin!
Round 1 Against Traditional Jund
Game 1: My deck was too fast and drew my removal for his Goyfs and Bobs. (1-0)
Game 2: Stupidly didn't leave back a Lingering Souls token and got one shotted by Raging Ravine and Goyf after he terminated my other blocker. (1-1)
Game 3: Ended up in a topdeck war, I didn't escalate with my collective brutality and was lucky enough to top deck Lingering Souls for the win. (2-1)
(1-0)
Round 2: Against Bant Spirits
Game 1: I didn't leave up a Death's Shadow to block once again even though I knew he had collected company, couldn't deal with Geist. (0-1)
Game 2: Aggro'ed him out with discard, Goyfs and Shadows (1-1)
Game 3: He mulliganed down to 5 and I Thoughtseized him twice, taking his 1 and 2 drops so he couldn't cast anything. I then beat him with a large deaths shadow. He played a 2/2, I Kolaghan's Commanded it and made him discard, he scooped. (2-1)
(2-0)
Round 3: Against some homebrew Eldrazi Deck using Serum Powder
Game 1: He mulled to 4, I Inquistioned him but saw Thought-Knot and 3 lands. Ended up Aggro'ing him out without much trouble. (1-0)
Game 2: He mulled to 5 and uses Serum Powder to turn on his Eldrazi card. I thoughtseized him twice, taking path and a threat. He gets the Eternal whatever Eldritch Moon card (the 3 mana 3/3 can cast from exile) out but he can't deal with Lili, Goyf and Shadow. (2-0)
(3-0)
Final Round: Against Merfolk
Round 1: Couldn't deal with his Master of Waves. Merfolk is always a tough matchup for me (Is it normally tough for us?). He played a second one and I scooped. (0-1)
Round 2: Had close to lethal. He was tapped out and I swung for lethal, but he flashed in the guy that bounces a tapped creature. I proceeded to scoop. (0-2)
Thoughts:
Wouldn't change anything in the main deck for now, maybe the dismember for a another fatal push or terminate, as I only used it once but didn't end up killing any reality smashers or thought-knots. It's a tech card however and it depends on the matchup. My sideboard has too many one-of's and I plan to get a Kozilek's Return to replace Pyroclasm (since I don't have it) and maybe another Brutality.
Getting familiar with the deck, though I still made many mistakes like not leaving up blockers or trying to be too aggro instead of grinding them out. Other small issues were not escalating with collective brutality. I used to run stubborn denials, and cutting them for Kolaghan's Command was the greatest choice I ever made, as Kolaghan's is almost always live and a great topdeck. Lingering souls helped alot as it helped provide another threat and ability to grind out the opponent as well as act as chump blockers all in the air. Yet, can never can seem to beat merfolk (lost against it last week too not winning a single game), anyone got some advice?
I like your list, I'll be playing something similar this week at FNM.
I don't think Souls comes in against Merfolk. Too often they don't care if you have blockers. The key is attrition. Usually your target for discard should be Silvergill (or obviously Spreading Seas if you see it). I would actually board in Fulminator here as a way to chump an attack and get their Mutavaults/ clear the "islands" from your side of the board. Obviously you'll want all the removal you can get. I would even consider bringing in Ancient Grudge to target Vial and the occasional SB nonsense like Vedalkan Shackles or Relic.
TBR is your trump card against them, but you should also expect Vapor Snag. Avoid alpha striking unless you know the coast is clear by checking with discard. Sometimes you just have to go for it though. Kolaghan's is f'ing bonkers against fish. This is a winnable match, but it can easily turn against you if they get islandwalk running.
I am a long time Jund midrange player, but since I am not able to put up positive records with it in my local meta, I decided to give Jund DS a try. I have always disliked DS strategies because I have been thinking that they are just semi-brainless aggro decks. That was until yesterday when I finally played my first tournament with it. The deck still has the same midrangish control aspect as Jund midrange, but also the ability to close the games super fast when then window is open.
I played exactly the same White splash Jund DS list as listed in the primer, with some small modifications to SB.
R1: 2-1 vs Sun and Moon with Nahiri
This deck is one of the reasons I have troubles with Jund midrange. They play next to no creatures and lots of planeswalkers, i.e. Jund removal is dead.
With Jund DS I had so fast clock that I didn't have to care about planeswalkers. Also 8 discard MB helps alot. I lost G2 due to them having one turn window to topdeck Blood Moon and get me hosed and they did. I got to swing with 8/9 Tarmogoyf boosted with Temur Battle Rage, was nice!
R2: 1-2 vs Grixis DS
I draw much better than he does in G1. G2 I get too greedy with my life totals and punish myself to bolt range which he topdecks. G3 goes to extra rounds and while I am thoughtseizing him at 8 life he Bolt-Snap-Bolts me to dead.
I think this loss was quite much due to my inexperience with the deck, but it is not an easy match for us. I did not board in Nihil Spellbombs and I think that was a mistake.
R3: 2-1 vs Eldrazi and Taxes
G1 I keep greedy one lander and have to use my two traverses for lands because his Thalia is choking my mana. I end up not drawing any creatures during the whole game and he slowly chips me down.
G2 My Tarmogoyfs grow huge and I am able to remove all his threats. He plays RiP in one point, but luckily I play Jund with Abrupt Decay instead of Grixis!
G3 Opponent mulligans and keeps a slow hand with Ratchet Bomb, 2xPath, Restoration Angel and lands. I take the Bomb because I only have LoTV and LtLH as my "threats". And boy did the new planeswalker serve me well in this situation! Almost makes me want to fit another LtLH in to mainboard.
R4: 2-0 vs Abzan CoCo
G1 & G2 are basically the same: I rip his hand out of business, force him to chump block mode and eventually just get there. G2 was especially ridiculous, turn 1 I discarded him, enabled my own delirium and was able to drop DS already on turn 2.
Are there any good comparison between Temur Battle Rage and Rancor? Last night there were 2(!) Mardu Tokens in the event, luckily I dodged both. I think that matchup would be crazy bad for us. While Teur Battle Rage is very good, I feel that Rancor would provide permanent way to get the damage in against token strategies.
Last time there were 2 Mardu Tokens at the event so I wanted to be prepared for tokens.
R1: won 2-1 vs Dredge
G1: I rip cantrips and he is not able to get anything going on.
G2: I am one turn away to get him down but he topdecks the Scourge Devil and is able to discard and get it to the table for alpha strike.
G3: I discard his Cathartic Reunion and his hand becomes awkward again. Tarfire and Push takes down his blockers and I strike him down.
Sideboarding: -2 LotV, -2 Kommand, -2 Decay, +Golgari Charm, +2 Spellbomb, +Surgical, +Cage, +LtLH
I think discard is very important against dredge. You can get them stumble so much if you snatch their reunion or looting.
R2: loss 1-2 vs Burn
G1: long game where I kill his dudes and eventually land a 4/4 Death's Shadow. I swing with it two times while opponent just draws and passes. Then I decide cycle Street Wraith and slam Temur Battle Rage. He scoops in response, dont know if he was just drawing lands..
G2: I punt very hard. I IoK him and see punch of burn, Path to Exile and Deflecting Palm... and decide to take the Path instead of Palm. I end up drawing 2 more Tarmogoyfs in addition to the one I had in hand. I have no option but to attack him and he Palms and burns me out.
G3: I punt another time. I play Traverse and dont bother to check my GY beforehand. I only have Artifact,Land,Sorcery in the bin... Right after this play I discard instant to my own LotV and feel very stupid. Of course Murphy's Law gets me and we end up to topdeck wars where I dont draw any threat and he draws 3 Boros Charms in a row.
Sideboarding: -4 Street Wraith, +2 Brutality, +Golgari Charm, +Dreadbore
First time I played against Burn with this deck and it feels very fun matchup. Burn player seemed to be quite unhappy facing me. If we are just able to find a threat this match should be cakewalk.
R3: won 2-0 vs Sun and Moon
G1: Couple IoKs and Thoughtseizes later his hand is empty off Blood Moons and Nahiris and I slam him down.
G2: Goes quite similarly as the first game except he almost gets to lethal range with Bolts and Helixes. He also had Deflecting Palm coming in from SB.
Sideboarding: -3 Push, +Golgari Charm, +Dreadbore, +Maelstrom Pulse
I used to lose this matchup always when playing Jund Midrange. Jund DS is just so fast against them that they just look like a clunky kitchen table deck.
R4: won 2-0 vs BR reanimator
G1: we both mull, I keep semi bad hand with Goyf, Thoughtseize and 2 Fatal Pushes. Push proves out to be the game winning card when I push my own Goyf so his Through the Breached Griselbrand cant block it and gain life. I Traverse for Death's Shadow and take him down next turn.
G2: I keep good hand with discards and Goyf. Luckily he doesnt have the Leyline of Sanctity in opening hand. I rip business out of his hand, he plays Chalice for one which does not even hurt me anymore, instead he is not able to play his own Faithless looting anymore. 5/6 Goyf boosted with Temur Battle Rage gets in there fast.
Sideboarding: -3 push, -2 Kommand, -2 LotV, -LtLH, +Golgari Charm, +Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Spellbomb, +Cage, +Surgical, +2 Brutality
Did not realize they had Chalices in the side, so siding out Kommands was maybe a small mistake. Though, I still kept decays in case of Blood Moon.
This deck is super powerful and once again I learned a lot from playing with it. Hopefully remember to count the delirium from this on. And always make them discard the Deflecting Palm no matter what!
A few things to note here: Magnus, Nijutsu42, Clay, and Chris all ran 5C shadow. Nijustsu ran Clay's list from two opens ago with one significant change: Breeding Pool over Stomping Ground. After playing testing this deck some, I can 100% agree with this change. Having access to an additional source of U helps your Stub lines and as well as accounts for the influx of blue cards that come in post board. This makes casting red spells a little more difficult, but all lists have been shaving down on them. Regardless, all 5C lists moving forward have adopted this change.
Lantto still has a different idea about what should be run in the main. The differences between his and Spicklemire's list are more Lilianas / removal in the SCG versions and Temur Battle Rage for Magnus. Sideboard for the former includes an extra Disdainful Stroke as well as more Traverse targets (Izzet Staticaster, Ghor-clan Rampager, Ranger of Eos), and Nihil Spellbombs / Collective Brutality / Kozileks Return for the latter. After watching Dylan Hovey play on stream, he too also agrees that you want Temur Battle Rage to cheese against cheese. With the influx of Storm, Affinity, Coco, and other go-wide decks (see Humans), this has become more mandatory than ever.
In this past weekend's Modern Challenge, Sesquialtera top 8'd with BGw Shadow. He eschews any colored cards main and ups the number of Abrupt Decays and adds more Grim Flayers for threats. His/her sideboard is the full Abzan suite, with Intrepid Hero as a sweet tech card against other large creature decks (Shadow, Tron). While I don't know if this version is what I would play, this isn't the first time I've seen 4C pop up on the Daily 5-0.
5C Shadow looks to be my weapon of choice. It's essentially Jund Shadow with Stubs to better interact with problem cards and removal. The one folly of the deck is that fetch sequencing in an 18-land deck can often leave you stranded without the fourth color.
There's also some argument to be made for Jund Shadow. Dennis Zens' list from MKM Hamburg a month ago shows that running Bolt helps against the X/3s of the format (see Baral, Chief of Compliance) and Kolaghan's Command is great against Affinity, Tron, and to help grind.
Tons of options amongst these lists, which goes to show that Traverse Shadow is very much still a strong choice in this diverse metagame.
Traverse Shadow lets you reliably find more threats, at the cost of being streamlined against Combo (in my opinion from playing against the different versions of the deck). Jund has more raw power available (more threats) vs more interaction from GDS/5C
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Nice analysis, I like it.
I am a new DS player, trying to decide what version of the deck to build.
What are the pros/cons of playing Jund or 5 color vs. Grixis?
I'd go with 5c right now. It's also the more skill intensive shell IMO, so it'll be easier to transition if you decide to switch to grixis later. I'll reproduce a comment I just made on reddit too because it's probably helpful:
It's worth noting why 5c shadow is doing better than Grixis shadow right now (some of this has been mentioned elsewhere in the comments):
1) mana denial has slowed down a bit after the recent surge. There's less Leonin Arbiters and Stone Rains running around (though the Ponza matchup feels good for 5c jund in my experience), and Storm has been cutting Blood Moon so they can run a fetchless mana base. Grixis is marginally better against the mana denial decks since it is only 3 colors.
2) There are less fatal pushes. Goyf is better than Angler/Tasigur in a vaccuum, but not when everyone has 4 fatal pushes. When Jund Shadow blew up, everyone was already cutting bolts for pushes and this just accelerated. Then Grixis exploited this by playing 6-7 mana creatures. UW(R), CoCo, and Humans decks have exploited this further by playing Spell Queller, Knight of the Reliquary, Kitchen Finks, and Mantis Rider, so people are backing off push and playing more bolts and terminates and such. Which makes delve creatures a little less attractive and tarmogoyf a little more attractive.
On top of it all, 5c shadow can basically do anything Grixis can do, so long as 1) or 2) isn't a problem - Lingering Souls and/or Ranger of Eos out of the board allows it to grind just as well as Grixis, if not harder. Plus it gets to really maximize Temur Battle Rage in a way that Grixis can't. So as long as 1) or 2) aren't big problems, some flavor of 4-5c shadow is probably the best build. If only 1) is a problem, perhaps strictly Jund shadow is the best shadow build - not sure here since I don't have a ton of experience with that build. But 2) pushes you toward delve creatures pretty hard. No pun intended
Note: when I mean 5c shadow can do anything grixis can, I mean you can configure 5c to do the same things Grixis can - with the exception that you'll be weaker to fatal push and mana denial.
Hmmm... Ghalta, Primal Hunter in this deck? 10GG 12/12 trample, costs X less for your total creature power on board. Find him with traverse. Forces opponent to have Path / Terminate / Wrath. Something this deck is missing is an un-pushable creature maybe?
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
It seems only castable if you already have 2 creatures into play, at which point you probably don't need another 12/12 trampler.
The argument I would have for the dino is that as a 1 of we would have a tutorable trampler that can't die to push. This would help when there are too many chump blockers since Goyf and Shadow don't have trample.
It seems only castable if you already have 2 creatures into play, at which point you probably don't need another 12/12 trampler.
The argument I would have for the dino is that as a 1 of we would have a tutorable trampler that can't die to push. This would help when there are too many chump blockers since Goyf and Shadow don't have trample.
But if you need a threat that can't die to push, how are ever going to cast this thing? Push should already be killing things. If you want a traverse target that doesn't die to push, how about Hazoret? If you want trample too, I'm sure there's something in the history of magic that you can actually cast without having 2 creatures already in play.
The only thing I can think of for sure to put in is the 2 Kozilek's Return cause it helps hit a lot of their small creatures, but I'm not sure about siding in Izzet Staticaster or Liliana, the Last Hope since they don't have too many X/1 creatures (pretty much just Thalia and Bob if you see it). There's also the option of siding in the white package for Lingering Souls. I can definitely side out the stubborn denials for the returns cause their deck is mostly creatures but I'm not sure what else to take out. Would love to get your guys' thoughts on this.
Dsj is the best
I only had problems with combo, even having discard the lack of counters males you struggle from topdecks
I know everyone says gds is better but after playing a lot both i still believe this is better
I'm playing the 5c version now and i kinda miss the F Mage when I'm playing against Tron
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-hamburg-2017-modern/
Pretty normal list, except he played 2 Lightning bolt (no Tarfire)
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
4 Mishra's Bauble
Creatures
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Terminate
Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Basic Lands
1 Swamp
Lands
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Lingering Souls
1 Godless Shrine
My question is mainly how does this deck function against mana denial? A single GQ can knock you completely out of Blue mana, and afaik there isn't any real way to defend against it. Eldrazi, Tron, Bears, Junk etc. all play GQ, and this list hinges pretty heavily on counterspells.
Does anyone have input on how to SB with this deck?
This list runs 3 MD Stubborn Denials, meaning it's metagamed vs uninteractive decks. Spicklemore probably expected a lot of Storm, Ad Nauseam, and Scapeshift. Against all of the decks you've mentioned (besides Tron Tron), it's safe to assume you can board out the Stubs in favor of cards that will aid that particular matchup, therefore lowering your reliance on U, and your vulnerability to GQ. That said, you've also listed some pretty difficult matchups, and GQ is at a premium when it comes to keeping this deck down.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Round 1 Against Traditional Jund
Game 1: My deck was too fast and drew my removal for his Goyfs and Bobs. (1-0)
Game 2: Stupidly didn't leave back a Lingering Souls token and got one shotted by Raging Ravine and Goyf after he terminated my other blocker. (1-1)
Game 3: Ended up in a topdeck war, I didn't escalate with my collective brutality and was lucky enough to top deck Lingering Souls for the win. (2-1)
(1-0)
Round 2: Against Bant Spirits
Game 1: I didn't leave up a Death's Shadow to block once again even though I knew he had collected company, couldn't deal with Geist. (0-1)
Game 2: Aggro'ed him out with discard, Goyfs and Shadows (1-1)
Game 3: He mulliganed down to 5 and I Thoughtseized him twice, taking his 1 and 2 drops so he couldn't cast anything. I then beat him with a large deaths shadow. He played a 2/2, I Kolaghan's Commanded it and made him discard, he scooped. (2-1)
(2-0)
Round 3: Against some homebrew Eldrazi Deck using Serum Powder
Game 1: He mulled to 4, I Inquistioned him but saw Thought-Knot and 3 lands. Ended up Aggro'ing him out without much trouble. (1-0)
Game 2: He mulled to 5 and uses Serum Powder to turn on his Eldrazi card. I thoughtseized him twice, taking path and a threat. He gets the Eternal whatever Eldritch Moon card (the 3 mana 3/3 can cast from exile) out but he can't deal with Lili, Goyf and Shadow. (2-0)
(3-0)
Final Round: Against Merfolk
Round 1: Couldn't deal with his Master of Waves. Merfolk is always a tough matchup for me (Is it normally tough for us?). He played a second one and I scooped. (0-1)
Round 2: Had close to lethal. He was tapped out and I swung for lethal, but he flashed in the guy that bounces a tapped creature. I proceeded to scoop. (0-2)
Overall 3-1
Decklist:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Liliana of the Veil
Instants and Sorceries
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
3 Lingering Souls
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Collective Brutality
1 Kataki, War's Wage
Thoughts:
Wouldn't change anything in the main deck for now, maybe the dismember for a another fatal push or terminate, as I only used it once but didn't end up killing any reality smashers or thought-knots. It's a tech card however and it depends on the matchup. My sideboard has too many one-of's and I plan to get a Kozilek's Return to replace Pyroclasm (since I don't have it) and maybe another Brutality.
Getting familiar with the deck, though I still made many mistakes like not leaving up blockers or trying to be too aggro instead of grinding them out. Other small issues were not escalating with collective brutality. I used to run stubborn denials, and cutting them for Kolaghan's Command was the greatest choice I ever made, as Kolaghan's is almost always live and a great topdeck. Lingering souls helped alot as it helped provide another threat and ability to grind out the opponent as well as act as chump blockers all in the air. Yet, can never can seem to beat merfolk (lost against it last week too not winning a single game), anyone got some advice?
I don't think Souls comes in against Merfolk. Too often they don't care if you have blockers. The key is attrition. Usually your target for discard should be Silvergill (or obviously Spreading Seas if you see it). I would actually board in Fulminator here as a way to chump an attack and get their Mutavaults/ clear the "islands" from your side of the board. Obviously you'll want all the removal you can get. I would even consider bringing in Ancient Grudge to target Vial and the occasional SB nonsense like Vedalkan Shackles or Relic.
TBR is your trump card against them, but you should also expect Vapor Snag. Avoid alpha striking unless you know the coast is clear by checking with discard. Sometimes you just have to go for it though. Kolaghan's is f'ing bonkers against fish. This is a winnable match, but it can easily turn against you if they get islandwalk running.
I played exactly the same White splash Jund DS list as listed in the primer, with some small modifications to SB.
R1: 2-1 vs Sun and Moon with Nahiri
This deck is one of the reasons I have troubles with Jund midrange. They play next to no creatures and lots of planeswalkers, i.e. Jund removal is dead.
With Jund DS I had so fast clock that I didn't have to care about planeswalkers. Also 8 discard MB helps alot. I lost G2 due to them having one turn window to topdeck Blood Moon and get me hosed and they did. I got to swing with 8/9 Tarmogoyf boosted with Temur Battle Rage, was nice!
R2: 1-2 vs Grixis DS
I draw much better than he does in G1. G2 I get too greedy with my life totals and punish myself to bolt range which he topdecks. G3 goes to extra rounds and while I am thoughtseizing him at 8 life he Bolt-Snap-Bolts me to dead.
I think this loss was quite much due to my inexperience with the deck, but it is not an easy match for us. I did not board in Nihil Spellbombs and I think that was a mistake.
R3: 2-1 vs Eldrazi and Taxes
G1 I keep greedy one lander and have to use my two traverses for lands because his Thalia is choking my mana. I end up not drawing any creatures during the whole game and he slowly chips me down.
G2 My Tarmogoyfs grow huge and I am able to remove all his threats. He plays RiP in one point, but luckily I play Jund with Abrupt Decay instead of Grixis!
G3 Opponent mulligans and keeps a slow hand with Ratchet Bomb, 2xPath, Restoration Angel and lands. I take the Bomb because I only have LoTV and LtLH as my "threats". And boy did the new planeswalker serve me well in this situation! Almost makes me want to fit another LtLH in to mainboard.
R4: 2-0 vs Abzan CoCo
G1 & G2 are basically the same: I rip his hand out of business, force him to chump block mode and eventually just get there. G2 was especially ridiculous, turn 1 I discarded him, enabled my own delirium and was able to drop DS already on turn 2.
Are there any good comparison between Temur Battle Rage and Rancor? Last night there were 2(!) Mardu Tokens in the event, luckily I dodged both. I think that matchup would be crazy bad for us. While Teur Battle Rage is very good, I feel that Rancor would provide permanent way to get the damage in against token strategies.
Last time there were 2 Mardu Tokens at the event so I wanted to be prepared for tokens.
R1: won 2-1 vs Dredge
G1: I rip cantrips and he is not able to get anything going on.
G2: I am one turn away to get him down but he topdecks the Scourge Devil and is able to discard and get it to the table for alpha strike.
G3: I discard his Cathartic Reunion and his hand becomes awkward again. Tarfire and Push takes down his blockers and I strike him down.
Sideboarding: -2 LotV, -2 Kommand, -2 Decay, +Golgari Charm, +2 Spellbomb, +Surgical, +Cage, +LtLH
I think discard is very important against dredge. You can get them stumble so much if you snatch their reunion or looting.
R2: loss 1-2 vs Burn
G1: long game where I kill his dudes and eventually land a 4/4 Death's Shadow. I swing with it two times while opponent just draws and passes. Then I decide cycle Street Wraith and slam Temur Battle Rage. He scoops in response, dont know if he was just drawing lands..
G2: I punt very hard. I IoK him and see punch of burn, Path to Exile and Deflecting Palm... and decide to take the Path instead of Palm. I end up drawing 2 more Tarmogoyfs in addition to the one I had in hand. I have no option but to attack him and he Palms and burns me out.
G3: I punt another time. I play Traverse and dont bother to check my GY beforehand. I only have Artifact,Land,Sorcery in the bin... Right after this play I discard instant to my own LotV and feel very stupid. Of course Murphy's Law gets me and we end up to topdeck wars where I dont draw any threat and he draws 3 Boros Charms in a row.
Sideboarding: -4 Street Wraith, +2 Brutality, +Golgari Charm, +Dreadbore
First time I played against Burn with this deck and it feels very fun matchup. Burn player seemed to be quite unhappy facing me. If we are just able to find a threat this match should be cakewalk.
R3: won 2-0 vs Sun and Moon
G1: Couple IoKs and Thoughtseizes later his hand is empty off Blood Moons and Nahiris and I slam him down.
G2: Goes quite similarly as the first game except he almost gets to lethal range with Bolts and Helixes. He also had Deflecting Palm coming in from SB.
Sideboarding: -3 Push, +Golgari Charm, +Dreadbore, +Maelstrom Pulse
I used to lose this matchup always when playing Jund Midrange. Jund DS is just so fast against them that they just look like a clunky kitchen table deck.
R4: won 2-0 vs BR reanimator
G1: we both mull, I keep semi bad hand with Goyf, Thoughtseize and 2 Fatal Pushes. Push proves out to be the game winning card when I push my own Goyf so his Through the Breached Griselbrand cant block it and gain life. I Traverse for Death's Shadow and take him down next turn.
G2: I keep good hand with discards and Goyf. Luckily he doesnt have the Leyline of Sanctity in opening hand. I rip business out of his hand, he plays Chalice for one which does not even hurt me anymore, instead he is not able to play his own Faithless looting anymore. 5/6 Goyf boosted with Temur Battle Rage gets in there fast.
Sideboarding: -3 push, -2 Kommand, -2 LotV, -LtLH, +Golgari Charm, +Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Spellbomb, +Cage, +Surgical, +2 Brutality
Did not realize they had Chalices in the side, so siding out Kommands was maybe a small mistake. Though, I still kept decays in case of Blood Moon.
This deck is super powerful and once again I learned a lot from playing with it. Hopefully remember to count the delirium from this on. And always make them discard the Deflecting Palm no matter what!
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/802670#paper (Chris Andersen - SCG Cincinnati Open - Top 32) same list
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/802665#paper (Clay Spicklemire - SCG Cincinnati Open - Top 32) same list
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/796800#paper (Magnus Lantto - MTGO Daily - 5-0)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/784425#paper (Ninjutsu42 - MTGO Daily - 5-0)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/802215#paper (Sesquialtera - MTGO Challence - 6-1)
A few things to note here: Magnus, Nijutsu42, Clay, and Chris all ran 5C shadow. Nijustsu ran Clay's list from two opens ago with one significant change: Breeding Pool over Stomping Ground. After playing testing this deck some, I can 100% agree with this change. Having access to an additional source of U helps your Stub lines and as well as accounts for the influx of blue cards that come in post board. This makes casting red spells a little more difficult, but all lists have been shaving down on them. Regardless, all 5C lists moving forward have adopted this change.
Lantto still has a different idea about what should be run in the main. The differences between his and Spicklemire's list are more Lilianas / removal in the SCG versions and Temur Battle Rage for Magnus. Sideboard for the former includes an extra Disdainful Stroke as well as more Traverse targets (Izzet Staticaster, Ghor-clan Rampager, Ranger of Eos), and Nihil Spellbombs / Collective Brutality / Kozileks Return for the latter. After watching Dylan Hovey play on stream, he too also agrees that you want Temur Battle Rage to cheese against cheese. With the influx of Storm, Affinity, Coco, and other go-wide decks (see Humans), this has become more mandatory than ever.
In this past weekend's Modern Challenge, Sesquialtera top 8'd with BGw Shadow. He eschews any colored cards main and ups the number of Abrupt Decays and adds more Grim Flayers for threats. His/her sideboard is the full Abzan suite, with Intrepid Hero as a sweet tech card against other large creature decks (Shadow, Tron). While I don't know if this version is what I would play, this isn't the first time I've seen 4C pop up on the Daily 5-0.
5C Shadow looks to be my weapon of choice. It's essentially Jund Shadow with Stubs to better interact with problem cards and removal. The one folly of the deck is that fetch sequencing in an 18-land deck can often leave you stranded without the fourth color.
There's also some argument to be made for Jund Shadow. Dennis Zens' list from MKM Hamburg a month ago shows that running Bolt helps against the X/3s of the format (see Baral, Chief of Compliance) and Kolaghan's Command is great against Affinity, Tron, and to help grind.
Tons of options amongst these lists, which goes to show that Traverse Shadow is very much still a strong choice in this diverse metagame.
Thoughts?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I am a new DS player, trying to decide what version of the deck to build.
What are the pros/cons of playing Jund or 5 color vs. Grixis?
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I'd go with 5c right now. It's also the more skill intensive shell IMO, so it'll be easier to transition if you decide to switch to grixis later. I'll reproduce a comment I just made on reddit too because it's probably helpful:
It's worth noting why 5c shadow is doing better than Grixis shadow right now (some of this has been mentioned elsewhere in the comments):
1) mana denial has slowed down a bit after the recent surge. There's less Leonin Arbiters and Stone Rains running around (though the Ponza matchup feels good for 5c jund in my experience), and Storm has been cutting Blood Moon so they can run a fetchless mana base. Grixis is marginally better against the mana denial decks since it is only 3 colors.
2) There are less fatal pushes. Goyf is better than Angler/Tasigur in a vaccuum, but not when everyone has 4 fatal pushes. When Jund Shadow blew up, everyone was already cutting bolts for pushes and this just accelerated. Then Grixis exploited this by playing 6-7 mana creatures. UW(R), CoCo, and Humans decks have exploited this further by playing Spell Queller, Knight of the Reliquary, Kitchen Finks, and Mantis Rider, so people are backing off push and playing more bolts and terminates and such. Which makes delve creatures a little less attractive and tarmogoyf a little more attractive.
On top of it all, 5c shadow can basically do anything Grixis can do, so long as 1) or 2) isn't a problem - Lingering Souls and/or Ranger of Eos out of the board allows it to grind just as well as Grixis, if not harder. Plus it gets to really maximize Temur Battle Rage in a way that Grixis can't. So as long as 1) or 2) aren't big problems, some flavor of 4-5c shadow is probably the best build. If only 1) is a problem, perhaps strictly Jund shadow is the best shadow build - not sure here since I don't have a ton of experience with that build. But 2) pushes you toward delve creatures pretty hard. No pun intended
Note: when I mean 5c shadow can do anything grixis can, I mean you can configure 5c to do the same things Grixis can - with the exception that you'll be weaker to fatal push and mana denial.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
The argument I would have for the dino is that as a 1 of we would have a tutorable trampler that can't die to push. This would help when there are too many chump blockers since Goyf and Shadow don't have trample.
But if you need a threat that can't die to push, how are ever going to cast this thing? Push should already be killing things. If you want a traverse target that doesn't die to push, how about Hazoret? If you want trample too, I'm sure there's something in the history of magic that you can actually cast without having 2 creatures already in play.
Here's my decklist and sideboard, running 5-color taken primarily from Spicklemire/Andersen and Lantto:
4 Death’s Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (24)
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Terminate
4 Mishra’s Bauble
Lands (18)
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Collective Brutality
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kozilek’s Return
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Lingering Souls
1 Ranger of Eos
The only thing I can think of for sure to put in is the 2 Kozilek's Return cause it helps hit a lot of their small creatures, but I'm not sure about siding in Izzet Staticaster or Liliana, the Last Hope since they don't have too many X/1 creatures (pretty much just Thalia and Bob if you see it). There's also the option of siding in the white package for Lingering Souls. I can definitely side out the stubborn denials for the returns cause their deck is mostly creatures but I'm not sure what else to take out. Would love to get your guys' thoughts on this.