Souls is probably the biggest threat to have, because Lilis and discard is also run by Grixis DS decks. Besides this, whocansay is right though. Delve creatures dodge a huge proportion of single target removal, most important one being push. I think this alone slightly gives it the edge over Abzan/Jund.
So here's how I think of how each deck is able to deal with GY hate: Goyf vs. delve creatures is basically a wash, though for any given hate card one may be better than the other. Snapcaster is slightly better than Traverse against GY hate, though still not good. 5c has Decay to deal with some of the hate cards, while Grixis can dig a little better with Serum Visions and/or Opt to find Shadow or something else relevant. Grixis might have a slight edge, but it doesn't seem like much.
Concerning Grixis DS manabase: Good lists should run 7 producting lands to exactly be able to cast Gurmag if needed. But surely that basically never happens.
I think your comparison is alright, agree with it, but I personally would value the cantrips higher than Decay killing hate and I think that Snapcaster is not as important than Traverse for each deck respectively. Overall I still think that 5c is a good amount more susceptible to said things actually. Might just be me or due to my horrible experience with Traverse and delirium, but whatever.
One big advantage 5c has over Grixis right now (in my mind) is that Push is actually less played than bolt and path right now (check mtgtop8). This alone makes goyfs better than delve creatures I think. Might also not be much, but it could be something.
One big advantage 5c has over Grixis right now (in my mind) is that Push is actually less played than bolt and path right now (check mtgtop8). This alone makes goyfs better than delve creatures I think. Might also not be much, but it could be something.
This is one of the big reasons why 5-color is an option now, compared to 6-7 months ago. Decks adjusted to Jund Shadow by just playing Fatal Push, which was enough to stem the tide of Jund but gave people a reason to play Grixis. Grixis being more resistant to Fatal Push, alongside the rise of Scapeshift and E-Tron meant that there was less reason to just jam a bunch of Fatal Pushes, and the meta has largely evened out at this point in that respect. Jund and Abzan struggling to really gain a foothold in the current meta (alongside people switching to Grixis Shadow) has made it so that Grixis Shadow is the premier Fatal Push deck, which is a matchup that we can handle.
I don't buy the idea that Grixis is better against other midrange decks than the 5-color version. Snap-Kommand is great, but we also have access to some excellent grindy options in Lingering Souls and Ranger of Eos, which are certainly no worse.
Except all our threats die to Push and Decay, whereas Gurmag and Tasigur blank them completely.
That's why we also run Souls, Ranger, and the various Lilianas, alongside discard to catch some of the early removal spells before we start deploying threats.
Souls is probably the biggest threat to have, because Lilis and discard is also run by Grixis DS decks. Besides this, whocansay is right though. Delve creatures dodge a huge proportion of single target removal, most important one being push. I think this alone slightly gives it the edge over Abzan/Jund.
I think this is highly contextual because it depends on the specific build of 5c Shadow we are talking about, but with Linging Souls in the SB, I think 5c does a little better than Grixis against the midrange decks (including Shadow mirrors/pseudo-mirrors). Fatal Push killing all of the big threats we have access to just doesn't matter that much in these matchups. What matters is planeswalkers and piles 1/1 spirits (or thopters - Grixis players should be playing Pia & Kiran Nalaar), and Snapcaster + K Command. You can tip the scales in 5c's favor even more by MDing Lingering Souls instead of the blue stuff. If it's right given the metagame, anyway. Not that the susceptibility to Push doesn't matter in these matchups. It's just small potatoes relative to other things. If we weren't on the Lingering Souls plan, it would be a much bigger deal.
Where I think being more susceptible to Push/Decay/EE (can't forget EE) matters more is in other matchups where you don't have Lingering Souls to bail you out. Often these are combo or big mana matchups and they bring EE or Push in post board. Like Ad Nauseum, Tron variants, the BR Hollow One deck, or UR Breach. That list is smaller than I expected. Maybe GB elves?
Honestly, I've become a lot less concerned with vulnerability to Push out of fair decks. If the format shifts heavily in that direction, I'll just start MDing a pile of Lingering Souls and maybe a Hazoret to punish them. You have time in those matchups and can do plenty of things to grind just as hard if not harder than them. Them loading up on Push is a nuisance to route around in the deckbuilding stage, not an unsolvable problem.
So here's how I think of how each deck is able to deal with GY hate: Goyf vs. delve creatures is basically a wash, though for any given hate card one may be better than the other. Snapcaster is slightly better than Traverse against GY hate, though still not good. 5c has Decay to deal with some of the hate cards, while Grixis can dig a little better with Serum Visions and/or Opt to find Shadow or something else relevant. Grixis might have a slight edge, but it doesn't seem like much.
Concerning Grixis DS manabase: Good lists should run 7 producting lands to exactly be able to cast Gurmag if needed. But surely that basically never happens.
FWIW lots of people are on an 18 land manabase with 12 fetches and 6 fetchables in GDS in order to fit in 2 Opt along with the usual 12 cantrips (or maybe more Opt and < 4 Serum Visions). I don't particularly like it, though not because you can't ever hardcast Angler. I just don't like having that much air in the deck and would rather spend my mana impacting the game. Hardcasting Angler comes up so rarely, and even with 7 fetchable lands is so hard because of Thought Scour, that I don't think it's much of a consideration.
FWIW lots of people are on an 18 land manabase with 12 fetches and 6 fetchables in GDS in order to fit in 2 Opt along with the usual 12 cantrips (or maybe more Opt and < 4 Serum Visions). I don't particularly like it, though not because you can't ever hardcast Angler. I just don't like having that much air in the deck and would rather spend my mana impacting the game. Hardcasting Angler comes up so rarely, and even with 7 fetchable lands is so hard because of Thought Scour, that I don't think it's much of a consideration.
I do think that is a mistake, I actually play 11 fetches and 7 sources alongside 2 opt. Has been working well overall and I think this id better than having just 6 sources. But ofc, hardcasting angler is not the primary thing to do.
I put it on as soon as I saw the Reddit thread, great stuff so far.
Edit- Just finished, I'm really intrigued by the idea of main deck Lingering Souls. I'm trying to narrow down my list for the SCG Invitational next week and felt like there'd be an uptick in Jund as a response to Humans (and a bunch of Grixis Shadow in general), and was already interested in going up to 4 souls in the 75. I liked that you also discussed Hazoret, because I've been looking for something other than Ranger of Eos for the 4 drop slot in the sideboard and she seems great against the decks I'm anticipating.
I'm going to need you too cool it on the high quality content for a week or so though, I was hoping this deck could skate under the radar a bit until the Invitational.
@DeFish I think you are on to something about the Abzan matchup. I've played against them a few times with 4c and usually it goes: game 1, win with discard and TBR before they can recover, games 2 and 3 side out discard and TBR and try to become more grindy and lose to them as they out-grind me with their own Souls and better removal.
I do also like Hazoret instead of Ranger, as well as 4 Souls. I personally am too keen on Stubs maindeck to run Souls maindeck. I also feel it would make the deck a little bit to clunky. Game 1 you basically just want to get them with TBR. And Souls aren't great in every matchup. So isn't stub ofc, but I feel its more flexible and also easier cast. It gives you more insurance to actually go for the kill with TBR game 1 for example (if you have stub as backup). But overall having 4 Souls in the 75 seems good.
I'm going to need you too cool it on the high quality content for a week or so though, I was hoping this deck could skate under the radar a bit until the Invitational.
Good luck at the invitational! I'm wasting my invite, so someone has to carry the 5c shadow torch.
I do also like Hazoret instead of Ranger, as well as 4 Souls. I personally am too keen on Stubs maindeck to run Souls maindeck. I also feel it would make the deck a little bit to clunky. Game 1 you basically just want to get them with TBR. And Souls aren't great in every matchup. So isn't stub ofc, but I feel its more flexible and also easier cast. It gives you more insurance to actually go for the kill with TBR game 1 for example (if you have stub as backup). But overall having 4 Souls in the 75 seems good.
Stub vs. Souls seems like a metagame call to me. Stub is better against stack based combo and big mana decks, while souls is better against aggro, swarm, and midrange & control decks. I could see bouncing back and forth between the two based on metagame swings.
Nice! I'm gonna listen to the podcast when I get my swoll at the gym tomorrow.
So, I brought Humans to my FNM yesterday...and my metagame looked so incredibly volatile to 5C Shadow. Abzan, Mardu with lingering souls and a ton of removal, Ponza with Colossus at the ready, Merfolk, Some kind of BG stompy deck jank that looks brutal for shadow, Affinity and then a bunch of things I'm not gonna list
It kinda made me scared to think of bringing the deck there, it's as if the whole store has PTSD from Grixis Shadow.
Can I just assume that playing against UW Control is like a 25/75 matchup that feels like the equivalent of Junk playing RG Tron?
The lingering souls plan in the main sounds very shaky. I think lingering souls is a bad card in the current meta, I'd certainly wait until midrange upticks a little rather one upping the uppers.
As for TBR against Junk, let's think about what they run postboard
4x paths
3x push
2x Decay
1x Pulse
3x LOTV
1x Damnation (flaying tendrils isn't good enough for Humans)
Some Abzan players are doing the 3x maindeck EE's, but this just seems like a bad brew idea from Willy Edel; the players on Facebook have posted lukewarm results.
So, I mean, theoretically, yeah, you could certainly fade 9 instant removal---that's not super hard to fade or deal with between discard and stub.
I'm not in an area where I can practice with people in paper nowadays, which is a shame. Wish I could try and apply Defish' idea. If I stumble across Abzan in the MTGO playroom I'll try that approach. He's right that they end up grinding better, they also have scoozes to eat our own souls.
I'll be honest with you guys, the good GBx players are probably gonna run Jund or a shadow deck of some form. There will be some stubborn players still on Junk, but I think Junk is still a bad deck as of now and will most likely arise when the meta slows down a little with decks like Jund
It is too vulnerable on the land combination and of you get pathed o ghost quarter they get you off the colour
Also i had problems getting delirium for traverse without tribal and instants (when there is not creatures to push on). And with only one basic searching for a land is useless fixing your mana
Overall, what do you guys think of going back to jund with splash on the sb
It seemed that it was moré consistant
Ps: tarmogoyf takes longer to get big, mking it worse
Hey Spooly, have u made any changes to the list that u played at SCG Regionals? I kinda wanna shove a Decay for another removal spell bc I feel it's not that efficient in the metagame rn
Concerning Grixis DS manabase: Good lists should run 7 producting lands to exactly be able to cast Gurmag if needed. But surely that basically never happens.
I think your comparison is alright, agree with it, but I personally would value the cantrips higher than Decay killing hate and I think that Snapcaster is not as important than Traverse for each deck respectively. Overall I still think that 5c is a good amount more susceptible to said things actually. Might just be me or due to my horrible experience with Traverse and delirium, but whatever.
One big advantage 5c has over Grixis right now (in my mind) is that Push is actually less played than bolt and path right now (check mtgtop8). This alone makes goyfs better than delve creatures I think. Might also not be much, but it could be something.
This is one of the big reasons why 5-color is an option now, compared to 6-7 months ago. Decks adjusted to Jund Shadow by just playing Fatal Push, which was enough to stem the tide of Jund but gave people a reason to play Grixis. Grixis being more resistant to Fatal Push, alongside the rise of Scapeshift and E-Tron meant that there was less reason to just jam a bunch of Fatal Pushes, and the meta has largely evened out at this point in that respect. Jund and Abzan struggling to really gain a foothold in the current meta (alongside people switching to Grixis Shadow) has made it so that Grixis Shadow is the premier Fatal Push deck, which is a matchup that we can handle.
I think this is highly contextual because it depends on the specific build of 5c Shadow we are talking about, but with Linging Souls in the SB, I think 5c does a little better than Grixis against the midrange decks (including Shadow mirrors/pseudo-mirrors). Fatal Push killing all of the big threats we have access to just doesn't matter that much in these matchups. What matters is planeswalkers and piles 1/1 spirits (or thopters - Grixis players should be playing Pia & Kiran Nalaar), and Snapcaster + K Command. You can tip the scales in 5c's favor even more by MDing Lingering Souls instead of the blue stuff. If it's right given the metagame, anyway. Not that the susceptibility to Push doesn't matter in these matchups. It's just small potatoes relative to other things. If we weren't on the Lingering Souls plan, it would be a much bigger deal.
Where I think being more susceptible to Push/Decay/EE (can't forget EE) matters more is in other matchups where you don't have Lingering Souls to bail you out. Often these are combo or big mana matchups and they bring EE or Push in post board. Like Ad Nauseum, Tron variants, the BR Hollow One deck, or UR Breach. That list is smaller than I expected. Maybe GB elves?
Honestly, I've become a lot less concerned with vulnerability to Push out of fair decks. If the format shifts heavily in that direction, I'll just start MDing a pile of Lingering Souls and maybe a Hazoret to punish them. You have time in those matchups and can do plenty of things to grind just as hard if not harder than them. Them loading up on Push is a nuisance to route around in the deckbuilding stage, not an unsolvable problem.
FWIW lots of people are on an 18 land manabase with 12 fetches and 6 fetchables in GDS in order to fit in 2 Opt along with the usual 12 cantrips (or maybe more Opt and < 4 Serum Visions). I don't particularly like it, though not because you can't ever hardcast Angler. I just don't like having that much air in the deck and would rather spend my mana impacting the game. Hardcasting Angler comes up so rarely, and even with 7 fetchable lands is so hard because of Thought Scour, that I don't think it's much of a consideration.
I do think that is a mistake, I actually play 11 fetches and 7 sources alongside 2 opt. Has been working well overall and I think this id better than having just 6 sources. But ofc, hardcasting angler is not the primary thing to do.
I think you can surely cut a lili for another stub there
Edit- Just finished, I'm really intrigued by the idea of main deck Lingering Souls. I'm trying to narrow down my list for the SCG Invitational next week and felt like there'd be an uptick in Jund as a response to Humans (and a bunch of Grixis Shadow in general), and was already interested in going up to 4 souls in the 75. I liked that you also discussed Hazoret, because I've been looking for something other than Ranger of Eos for the 4 drop slot in the sideboard and she seems great against the decks I'm anticipating.
I'm going to need you too cool it on the high quality content for a week or so though, I was hoping this deck could skate under the radar a bit until the Invitational.
Good luck at the invitational! I'm wasting my invite, so someone has to carry the 5c shadow torch.
Stub vs. Souls seems like a metagame call to me. Stub is better against stack based combo and big mana decks, while souls is better against aggro, swarm, and midrange & control decks. I could see bouncing back and forth between the two based on metagame swings.
So, I brought Humans to my FNM yesterday...and my metagame looked so incredibly volatile to 5C Shadow. Abzan, Mardu with lingering souls and a ton of removal, Ponza with Colossus at the ready, Merfolk, Some kind of BG stompy deck jank that looks brutal for shadow, Affinity and then a bunch of things I'm not gonna list
It kinda made me scared to think of bringing the deck there, it's as if the whole store has PTSD from Grixis Shadow.
Can I just assume that playing against UW Control is like a 25/75 matchup that feels like the equivalent of Junk playing RG Tron?
The lingering souls plan in the main sounds very shaky. I think lingering souls is a bad card in the current meta, I'd certainly wait until midrange upticks a little rather one upping the uppers.
As for TBR against Junk, let's think about what they run postboard
4x paths
3x push
2x Decay
1x Pulse
3x LOTV
1x Damnation (flaying tendrils isn't good enough for Humans)
Some Abzan players are doing the 3x maindeck EE's, but this just seems like a bad brew idea from Willy Edel; the players on Facebook have posted lukewarm results.
So, I mean, theoretically, yeah, you could certainly fade 9 instant removal---that's not super hard to fade or deal with between discard and stub.
I'm not in an area where I can practice with people in paper nowadays, which is a shame. Wish I could try and apply Defish' idea. If I stumble across Abzan in the MTGO playroom I'll try that approach. He's right that they end up grinding better, they also have scoozes to eat our own souls.
I'll be honest with you guys, the good GBx players are probably gonna run Jund or a shadow deck of some form. There will be some stubborn players still on Junk, but I think Junk is still a bad deck as of now and will most likely arise when the meta slows down a little with decks like Jund
Ponza
Eldrazi & Taxes
Mono White Taxes
Infect
B/R Hollow One
Mardu
Mono Blue Tron
8Rack
Wanted some sideboard info on some more tier 3 decks that I still see; want to know well enough that I'm not caught off guard.
I tried the 5c shadow and failed
It is too vulnerable on the land combination and of you get pathed o ghost quarter they get you off the colour
Also i had problems getting delirium for traverse without tribal and instants (when there is not creatures to push on). And with only one basic searching for a land is useless fixing your mana
Overall, what do you guys think of going back to jund with splash on the sb
It seemed that it was moré consistant
Ps: tarmogoyf takes longer to get big, mking it worse
How long did you try the deck out?
I would personally play a fourth push over the second decay in this list.