2x Scoozes, 4 Bobs in the main, no Huntmaster or Kalitas in the main. In the dark, are you going to throw back a Bob and thoughtseize?
Game 2 I feel ok the play
Game 3 on the draw, the game feels very difficult without a 1 mana removal. My opening hand for game 3 had 2 lands, a Goyf, 1x collective brutality and some 3 drops, I couldn't throw that back. Got blown out regardless of the keepable hand.
Like I said, game 1 I really out-attritioned my opponent and sequenced correctly, but he blew me out by killing rabblemaster back to back. That means game 1 I have Goyf as the only real threat, since Ravine isn't going to get there, and bob is unplayable.
A few of the jund players on Facebook agree the new set up isn't good against the deck
You have to mull aggressively against burn. Game one certainly is dreadful for us, but in post-sideboard games, a 5-card hand will easily beat their 7-card hand. Especially If you have Collective Brutality or a Liliana of the Veil to grind them out. But the true must-have is a turn-1 play. That's how they get under you.
EDIT: Also; contrary to what most people do, I actually keep my copies of Thoughtseize in after sideboarding to consistently achieve what I mentioned above. Although I only run two copies in my 75, I feel my win-rate is much higher when I have them in. I think it's worth it even if it means saving 1 point of damage. That's just me though.
I really think you're looking at this more on the perspective of old jund lists, which I had an absurd win record with against burn
You can't toss back a hand with Goyf, LOTV, CB and 2 land because there's no bolt or push, that's really asking to be punished.
I'm not a fan of thoughtseize, it's rarely worth it. I think thoughtseize is a correct move for Shadow players so that they don't die to palm or have 1 of 8 creatures path'd.
I really think you're looking at this more on the perspective of old jund lists, which I had an absurd win record with against burn
You can't toss back a hand with Goyf, LOTV, CB and 2 land because there's no bolt or push, that's really asking to be punished.
I'm not a fan of thoughtseize, it's rarely worth it. I think thoughtseize is a correct move for Shadow players so that they don't die to palm or have 1 of 8 creatures path'd.
As I was saying, this is just me personally. All in all, it's advice one way or the other. So take what's being said with a grain of salt. The only card (for me) in the hand you mentioned that makes it keep-able, is the Collective Brutality. If it was any other card in your list, i'd be pretty hard-pressed to not throw it back. This is what has brought me success so far.
I think you don't need Huntmaster or Kalitas to make the burn matchup positive. I don't run any of the mentioned cards for a long time now and have a positive record for burn. Its definitely not great, but a little over 50 percent nevertheless. Them being able to kill your threat is maybe an issue, but I would be totally fine if they used a combo piece to kill one threat. We are still running our 4 goyfs in the rabblemaster lists, I feel like this is totally fine for beating the burn matchup. The problem might just be that sometimes your hand shape to be somewhat clunky with that high amount of 3 drops and greedy landbase of only 23 lands, where some lands will come into play tapped. In this case this would be more an issue of loosing to yourself then.
TS vs. Burn is a really old and ongoing discussion now. Its really a double edged sword and is easily to see it as "safing" 1 or 2 points of dmg if you take a burn spell. But the reality is it isn't. Look at the primer for my detailed explanation. Willy Edel himself even said, when I asked him if he would keep TS in vs Burn: "No, unless I have zero SB cards". I guess that explains it all
But everyone can decide for him/herself what works best.
I historically have a great record against burn. Killing rabblemaster is huge through.
The mana base was fine all night. I only got stuck on mana once in 1 of 11 games. The curve is low. The decks mana was good when I tested all afternoon last week too. All the mana is a splash except for lillies, Chandra and anger in the side. The mana base wasn't hitting me much either. I didn't find myself missing the 2x blooming marsh at all, the card feels better in junk. I decided to take Reid duke in consideration for the 4 iok split, and it felt good
You guys should really try these rabble lists, it's better than playing the same list that's done horribly on 2017.
I'm picking up jund again because I get the feeling in Feb it will be better for reasons I cannot discuss here
Agreed Jund hasn't felt so good in a long time. I just got on Goblin Rabblemaster (no Blood Moon tho) and it's great. It punishes decks for not having adequate removal and allows Jund to go wide, which it has always had an issue doing. It's improved lots of matchups for me.
The mana base was fine all night. I only got stuck on mana once in 1 of 11 games. The curve is low. The decks mana was good when I tested all afternoon last week too. All the mana is a splash except for lillies, Chandra and anger in the side. The mana base wasn't hitting me much either. I didn't find myself missing the 2x blooming marsh at all, the card feels better in junk. I decided to take Reid duke in consideration for the 4 iok split, and it felt good
In my experience, its not about a low curve when talking about a 23 land base. Like I said before, in Jund, you want to cast multiple spells a turn, not just one. I tested loads and loads of different 23 land builds, and while sometimes they functioned flawless, inevidably it ended in a mana problem (statistically). I do agree though that you should absolutely not play more fastlands than those 4 Blackcleave Cliffs in 23 land builds. I tried lists with up to 6 fastlands while only playing 23 lands and often found myself being stuck on 3 untapped lands on turn 4/5. This is horrendus for a reactive deck like Jund. Antoher aspect might be the colour requirements. We have double black to fulfill on turn 3, while needing black and red on turn 1, green on turn 2 and so on. Thats basically my experience about this.
Maybe overall it comes down to whether you want to be on the flood side or more on the srew side. I personally like hitting my landdrops in time and therefore prefer the first one.
The only reason why I'm leaning on the 23 lands now is because im on the rabblemaster build. I feel that the deck rewards itself more for operating on 3-4 lands because of the threat density, even though 5 lands is always optimal for ravine activation.
As @FlyingDelver said, it comes down to preference on where you want to be.
Its a tough decision. I think we should be a little bit favoured against Grixis DS, including the 24 land version. The DS matchup is a grindfest in my experience. And I think hitting landdrops is a good plan when grinding.
Delver, until something major new is available for jund, I think the deck needs to adjust or die.
I was right about push being bad for jund, i was right about push being better than bolt, I was right about Shadow deck killing off jund, and I was right about Abzan being the better GBx deck
Jund has to adapt. 24 lands with the Olivia/Kalitas build isn't going anywhere. I'd give it another try and see if the moon and goblin plan works in your meta. Moon is also a nice upside against these jeskai decks which are really growing in numbers
Creature aggro is propping up, so regular jund could work if your pairings aren't awful.
Delver, until something major new is available for jund, I think the deck needs to adjust or die.
I was right about push being bad for jund, i was right about push being better than bolt, I was right about Shadow deck killing off jund, and I was right about Abzan being the better GBx deck
Jund has to adapt. 24 lands with the Olivia/Kalitas build isn't going anywhere. I'd give it another try and see if the moon and goblin plan works in your meta. Moon is also a nice upside against these jeskai decks which are really growing in numbers
Creature aggro is propping up, so regular jund could work if your pairings aren't awful.
What does any of have to do with the current problems? You weren't the only one to see this hazy future, and it's not as if Abzan is king of midrange now. I'd say the problem is that "old-school" midrange is dead. I mean all of it. Even "Blue Jund" decks. Now, "midrange" decks play Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2 or 3. If whatever fair deck you're playing can't handle things like that (or ignore them), then there's really no point in sleeving it up unless you're making a metagame call.
I can also tell you that you would be hard-pressed to catch a good Jeskai pilot off-guard with Blood Moon, especially without mana ramping of some sort to jam it.
You'd be surprised by the Jeskai deck though, they won't always have the answers for it, and we all know that sometimes you have to keep a good opener even if it's low on fetches and basics.
Jund, I think, is going into a decent meta call.
Until some things change in the format, I don't believe midrange is very viable minus Jeskai/Shadow, currently.
I'd say the problem is that "old-school" midrange is dead. I mean all of it. Even "Blue Jund" decks. Now, "midrange" decks play Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2 or 3. If whatever fair deck you're playing can't handle things like that (or ignore them), then there's really no point in sleeving it up unless you're making a metagame call.
"Old-school" midrange is not as favored as it used to be, but I think pronouncing it "dead" is a little extreme. Jund and Abzan took spots in the top 8 of five out of the ten SCG Regional Championships last weekend, including a first place finish in Syracuse.
I'm also not sure I agree that Eldrazi Tron is really a midrange deck. What's the basis for that designation, the fact that it runs Chalice and one or two Dismembers? Eldrazi Tron at its core is still a Big Mana deck like Gx Tron, albeit a significantly faster one than the traditional version. If anything is "new midrange", its Grixis Shadow-- plays faster and goes bigger than GBx while retaining the same disruption and removal suites that IMO are essential components of a midrange strategy.
I'd say the problem is that "old-school" midrange is dead. I mean all of it. Even "Blue Jund" decks. Now, "midrange" decks play Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2 or 3. If whatever fair deck you're playing can't handle things like that (or ignore them), then there's really no point in sleeving it up unless you're making a metagame call.
"Old-school" midrange is not as favored as it used to be, but I think pronouncing it "dead" is a little extreme. Jund and Abzan took spots in the top 8 of five out of the ten SCG Regional Championships last weekend, including a first place finish in Syracuse.
I'm also not sure I agree that Eldrazi Tron is really a midrange deck. What's the basis for that designation, the fact that it runs Chalice and one or two Dismembers? Eldrazi Tron at its core is still a Big Mana deck like Gx Tron, albeit a significantly faster one than the traditional version. If anything is "new midrange", its Grixis Shadow-- plays faster and goes bigger than GBx while retaining the same disruption and removal suites that IMO are essential components of a midrange strategy.
Favored? We were the literal definition of a 50/50 deck even against decks that we're supposedly "favored" against because we tended to "fix" our deck for each match after going to sideboard. Now, if we employ those methods, all it takes is a couple bad draws, drawing the wrong half of our deck, or maybe even nothing so dramatic, and we just lose. Yes, the Shadow decks are where midrange went, but they're not doing so hot either. I've learned that playing Snapcaster Mage and Path to Exile really hurt that deck, and they are just as prone to drawing fluff as the old school versions. If you want to stay on the 50/50 train and keep rolling the dice, knock yourself out. It's prone to too much crap for my liking.
Wow what the hell guys.. Been 2 years off modern mtg (and mtg completely tbh), and now, Jund, once the reigning king in tier 1 is now pushed to "Developing Competitive" in mtgs??
Fluctuation in tier ranking is normal, but, pushed down 2 levels? :0
What's the meta look like now? Is it healthier than was when jund is tier 1? Or worse? (Still not playing, just checking the mtgs forum and curious)
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
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Game 2 I feel ok the play
Game 3 on the draw, the game feels very difficult without a 1 mana removal. My opening hand for game 3 had 2 lands, a Goyf, 1x collective brutality and some 3 drops, I couldn't throw that back. Got blown out regardless of the keepable hand.
Like I said, game 1 I really out-attritioned my opponent and sequenced correctly, but he blew me out by killing rabblemaster back to back. That means game 1 I have Goyf as the only real threat, since Ravine isn't going to get there, and bob is unplayable.
A few of the jund players on Facebook agree the new set up isn't good against the deck
EDIT: Also; contrary to what most people do, I actually keep my copies of Thoughtseize in after sideboarding to consistently achieve what I mentioned above. Although I only run two copies in my 75, I feel my win-rate is much higher when I have them in. I think it's worth it even if it means saving 1 point of damage. That's just me though.
You can't toss back a hand with Goyf, LOTV, CB and 2 land because there's no bolt or push, that's really asking to be punished.
I'm not a fan of thoughtseize, it's rarely worth it. I think thoughtseize is a correct move for Shadow players so that they don't die to palm or have 1 of 8 creatures path'd.
As I was saying, this is just me personally. All in all, it's advice one way or the other. So take what's being said with a grain of salt. The only card (for me) in the hand you mentioned that makes it keep-able, is the Collective Brutality. If it was any other card in your list, i'd be pretty hard-pressed to not throw it back. This is what has brought me success so far.
TS vs. Burn is a really old and ongoing discussion now. Its really a double edged sword and is easily to see it as "safing" 1 or 2 points of dmg if you take a burn spell. But the reality is it isn't. Look at the primer for my detailed explanation. Willy Edel himself even said, when I asked him if he would keep TS in vs Burn: "No, unless I have zero SB cards". I guess that explains it all
But everyone can decide for him/herself what works best.
The mana base was fine all night. I only got stuck on mana once in 1 of 11 games. The curve is low. The decks mana was good when I tested all afternoon last week too. All the mana is a splash except for lillies, Chandra and anger in the side. The mana base wasn't hitting me much either. I didn't find myself missing the 2x blooming marsh at all, the card feels better in junk. I decided to take Reid duke in consideration for the 4 iok split, and it felt good
You guys should really try these rabble lists, it's better than playing the same list that's done horribly on 2017.
I'm picking up jund again because I get the feeling in Feb it will be better for reasons I cannot discuss here
In my experience, its not about a low curve when talking about a 23 land base. Like I said before, in Jund, you want to cast multiple spells a turn, not just one. I tested loads and loads of different 23 land builds, and while sometimes they functioned flawless, inevidably it ended in a mana problem (statistically). I do agree though that you should absolutely not play more fastlands than those 4 Blackcleave Cliffs in 23 land builds. I tried lists with up to 6 fastlands while only playing 23 lands and often found myself being stuck on 3 untapped lands on turn 4/5. This is horrendus for a reactive deck like Jund. Antoher aspect might be the colour requirements. We have double black to fulfill on turn 3, while needing black and red on turn 1, green on turn 2 and so on. Thats basically my experience about this.
Maybe overall it comes down to whether you want to be on the flood side or more on the srew side. I personally like hitting my landdrops in time and therefore prefer the first one.
The only reason why I'm leaning on the 23 lands now is because im on the rabblemaster build. I feel that the deck rewards itself more for operating on 3-4 lands because of the threat density, even though 5 lands is always optimal for ravine activation.
As @FlyingDelver said, it comes down to preference on where you want to be.
I'll keep testing the deck, and determine if it goes alongside with his experience. I was casting multiple spells just fine.
I was right about push being bad for jund, i was right about push being better than bolt, I was right about Shadow deck killing off jund, and I was right about Abzan being the better GBx deck
Jund has to adapt. 24 lands with the Olivia/Kalitas build isn't going anywhere. I'd give it another try and see if the moon and goblin plan works in your meta. Moon is also a nice upside against these jeskai decks which are really growing in numbers
Creature aggro is propping up, so regular jund could work if your pairings aren't awful.
What does any of have to do with the current problems? You weren't the only one to see this hazy future, and it's not as if Abzan is king of midrange now. I'd say the problem is that "old-school" midrange is dead. I mean all of it. Even "Blue Jund" decks. Now, "midrange" decks play Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2 or 3. If whatever fair deck you're playing can't handle things like that (or ignore them), then there's really no point in sleeving it up unless you're making a metagame call.
I can also tell you that you would be hard-pressed to catch a good Jeskai pilot off-guard with Blood Moon, especially without mana ramping of some sort to jam it.
You'd be surprised by the Jeskai deck though, they won't always have the answers for it, and we all know that sometimes you have to keep a good opener even if it's low on fetches and basics.
Jund, I think, is going into a decent meta call.
Until some things change in the format, I don't believe midrange is very viable minus Jeskai/Shadow, currently.
"Old-school" midrange is not as favored as it used to be, but I think pronouncing it "dead" is a little extreme. Jund and Abzan took spots in the top 8 of five out of the ten SCG Regional Championships last weekend, including a first place finish in Syracuse.
I'm also not sure I agree that Eldrazi Tron is really a midrange deck. What's the basis for that designation, the fact that it runs Chalice and one or two Dismembers? Eldrazi Tron at its core is still a Big Mana deck like Gx Tron, albeit a significantly faster one than the traditional version. If anything is "new midrange", its Grixis Shadow-- plays faster and goes bigger than GBx while retaining the same disruption and removal suites that IMO are essential components of a midrange strategy.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Favored? We were the literal definition of a 50/50 deck even against decks that we're supposedly "favored" against because we tended to "fix" our deck for each match after going to sideboard. Now, if we employ those methods, all it takes is a couple bad draws, drawing the wrong half of our deck, or maybe even nothing so dramatic, and we just lose. Yes, the Shadow decks are where midrange went, but they're not doing so hot either. I've learned that playing Snapcaster Mage and Path to Exile really hurt that deck, and they are just as prone to drawing fluff as the old school versions. If you want to stay on the 50/50 train and keep rolling the dice, knock yourself out. It's prone to too much crap for my liking.
I do think Abzan is worse than jund in this meta though
Based on what? I thought you loved to base everything on results. I'm not seeing Death's Shadow decks in great numbers anywhere.
Fluctuation in tier ranking is normal, but, pushed down 2 levels? :0
What's the meta look like now? Is it healthier than was when jund is tier 1? Or worse? (Still not playing, just checking the mtgs forum and curious)
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